Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Alucardmike

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

Stop crying m8... U just want that passive back so U can keep using cloak and snipe on BGs, like most elves and Cats used tu do... Get over it...

I hated losing my cat 8% crit, was crying on forums for it... and when changes came to Live got 2k more DPS on first try... They did a good job over all, ony orc now seems a bit OP, but still its more balanced.

Excuse me, if I got you wrong, but you are only talking of PVP or heighend gamers.

To be honest, I do about 3k/4k dps. I know I am a bad player, but I am a roleplayer, so I only use one bar and only one weapon (bow). In the other hand, I have a dagger/shortsword.

So please tell me how this patch helps mewith my role, as a merchant of Valenwood and thief of Altmer? It doesn't. Because I do nearly no fighting. Only to protect myself. (Or my goods)

wedgebert

Sylvermynx wrote: »

With my ping, I can't dodge roll or bar swap etc. So it's useless for me. Yeah I know I'm one of those edge cases, so it's a damn good thing I enjoy the game.... in other directions.

Really, I love the game. I have various issues with the combat. I also have issues with the way quests are developed. Sure I can do a lot of the "lead up" stuff on any given faction quest line....

Eh, you don't get xp on that sort of thing. And you certainly do NOT get the skill point + goodies. With 2k ms ping (all the time - it's satellite, not getting better EVER) I simply cannot get through the "mini boss" at the end of most quest lines. It's actually pretty frustrating....

You say you're an edge case, but there's probably more players in your ping-challenged situation than people who have niche roll-dodge builds that can actually benefit from Hunter's Eye.

Anthony_Arndt

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Maybe we are looking and talking about this the wrong way.....

What if ZoS/ESO is invoking "The right of theft" on our stealth reduction and we must give them something of equal value to acknowledge the prowess they have shown in stealing from us!

You... might have something there.

So.. how many wheels of cheese would it take?

And are there any Bosmer players in the Baltimore area?

Ratzkifal

wedgebert wrote: »

Like you said there's not a lot you can do with stealth. It's really only

1. Harder to spot
2. Move faster
3. Hide faster
4. Less cost
5. Improved damage

I was also coming to this conclusion pretty much. There are several options for 5, but only one way for 2 to 4. For 1 I was thinking about making a difference between radius while moving and radius while standing still, but I don't want to take away the radius of Khajiit when they suddenly stop moving, so that only leaves radius while standing still. They said that 5m were too much, because people could sneak up right to under a guard's nose, but if you can't walk there, then maybe those 5m wouldn't be a problem. Then again, in PvP Bosmer could hide in keeps and basically stay undetectable unless you use flare. Not sure if that is a good thing, but it would certainly give the skill more use.

#3 hiding faster has lots of uses in PvP, but doesn't help in a heist or sacramant all that much. An invisibility frame upon crouching wouldn't work either, because that would mess things up in PvP too (being equivalent to a dodgeroll at 0 cost). It could work on a cooldown though maybe. "Upon crouching, your character turns invisible for 1 second. This effect can only activate once every 16 seconds" or something along the lines. It would also work like a safety net in a way, when an NPC tries to attack you in a sacrament, because you screwed up and they noticed, you could crouch and they wouldn't chase you. What are your thoughts on that? Could that make up for the loss of 3meters?

wedgebert

The problem with a short duration invisibility is that if you screw up in a sacrament or pickpocketing or something, you'd crouch, go invisible, but the NPC would likely be running towards you the whole time. So it's very likely that as soon as the invisibility frame wears off, you'd just be instantly detected again.

I would like it if all traits were balanced towards PvE since that's where most of them are right now anyways. Really only Bosmer and Altmer have PvP focused passives at the moment. Hunter's Eye being of little to no use outside of PvP and not much use inside of it either (many reports of the improved stealth detection also making it so you are detected). And the Altmer Spell Recharge is pretty worthless in PvE since if you do mechanics even halfway decently, you'll always have enough stamina (as a magicka altmer) to dodge/block. Plus, way more people PvE than PvP.

If they want to have PvP passives, they should add a 4th passive to each race that only works in BGs or Cyrodiil/IC. That way all races an have something instead of shafting two races (both AD!) with a lose of PvE power.

Cundu_Ertur

wedgebert wrote: »

The problem with a short duration invisibility is that if you screw up in a sacrament or pickpocketing or something, you'd crouch, go invisible, but the NPC would likely be running towards you the whole time. So it's very likely that as soon as the invisibility frame wears off, you'd just be instantly detected again.

I would like it if all traits were balanced towards PvE since that's where most of them are right now anyways. Really only Bosmer and Altmer have PvP focused passives at the moment. Hunter's Eye being of little to no use outside of PvP and not much use inside of it either (many reports of the improved stealth detection also making it so you are detected). And the Altmer Spell Recharge is pretty worthless in PvE since if you do mechanics even halfway decently, you'll always have enough stamina (as a magicka altmer) to dodge/block. Plus, way more people PvE than PvP.

If they want to have PvP passives, they should add a 4th passive to each race that only works in BGs or Cyrodiil/IC. That way all races an have something instead of shafting two races (both AD!) with a lose of PvE power.

While this is a bit off-topic, what they should have done with spell recharge is that for every rank in that passive you regain more magic, but you also become increasingly vulnerable to magic damage. This reflects how Altmer were in previous games. Each player could choose: better regen but higher vulnerability, or less vulnerable with lower regen. The flavor description would be that Altmer can draw on the latent power of previously cast spells in a fight, but doing so opens them up to incoming magical damage.

Ratzkifal

wedgebert wrote: »

The problem with a short duration invisibility is that if you screw up in a sacrament or pickpocketing or something, you'd crouch, go invisible, but the NPC would likely be running towards you the whole time. So it's very likely that as soon as the invisibility frame wears off, you'd just be instantly detected again.

If I remember correctly, then NPCs actually stop moving if you go invisible. Guards will throw a flare at the position they last saw you, but one second should be enough to get away from it. If only we had some way to test these hypothetical passives to see if they would even work the way we want them to.

wedgebert

But do we really want them? We were all pretty happy with the 3m stealth reduction and there wasn't any weird interactions with it. Plus it was more helpful in things like heists (where getting caught at all is the penalty) and open world thieving.

A brief invisibility window still seems more tailored to PvP as it won't help much in PvE unless it can work while in combat, but that just makes it rather strong. Especially when paired with skills that do extra damage or have effect riders when used from stealth.

Plus, it still seems like it's intruding on the vampire skill line since that's currently the only way to stealth faster. I really don't see them devaluing a skill line that they sell for crowns (even if it's obtainable other ways)

Ratzkifal

wedgebert wrote: »

But do we really want them? We were all pretty happy with the 3m stealth reduction and there wasn't any weird interactions with it. Plus it was more helpful in things like heists (where getting caught at all is the penalty) and open world thieving.

A brief invisibility window still seems more tailored to PvP as it won't help much in PvE unless it can work while in combat, but that just makes it rather strong. Especially when paired with skills that do extra damage or have effect riders when used from stealth.

Plus, it still seems like it's intruding on the vampire skill line since that's currently the only way to stealth faster. I really don't see them devaluing a skill line that they sell for crowns (even if it's obtainable other ways)

Why would it not work in combat? That was the whole idea behind it. The cooldown should prevent abuse on Nightblades. It's a good point about devaluing that skill line though, but then again, what are our other options? I would rather like the 3m back as well, since no other buff is nearly as generally useful in stealth gameplay as 3m reduction. Without those 3m, the only thing that would be helpful I feel is something like that. Even speed isn't as needed, although I would already be happy about anything that represents the stealth lore.

The more I think about it the less I think there can be a compromise that satisfies everyone (ZOS's presumed standpoint, balance, lore, us).

wedgebert

I assumed it wouldn't work in combat because you can't stealth in combat. And the few times I've tried to use cloak or an invisibility potion in combat, combat didn't end for me. But it's quite possible I was doing something wrong.

I'm definitely to ideas to replace the stealth radius, but like you said, nothing seems a useful. Getting stuck with some sort of niche stealth talent is just as bad as not having stealth.

None of this is helped by ZOS's adamant refusal to even acknowledge to the public that there is even a valid issue. They've been completely silent on the matter despite a bunch of different threads on the subject and this thread being one the largest active threads around.

billp_ESO

I wasn't sure why ZoS would decide to suddenly change a fundamental lore action. Sometimes MMO's change just for the sake of the illusion of progress.

But if the next DLC to be sold is focused on Khajit, it makes perfect sense that ZoS would nerf the stealth for Bosmer.

That would be just like them.

Universe

billp_ESO wrote: »

I wasn't sure why ZoS would decide to suddenly change a fundamental lore action. Sometimes MMO's change just for the sake of the illusion of progress.

But if the next DLC to be sold is focused on Khajit, it makes perfect sense that ZoS would nerf the stealth for Bosmer.

That would be just like them.

While this may be logical business-financial wise, it is kind of a conspiracy theory...

anadandy

Today on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/b2jriv/the_sneaky_bosmer/

Ratzkifal

anadandy wrote: »

Today on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/b2jriv/the_sneaky_bosmer/

Putting it here so everyone can enjoy it. Source is the link above.

KMarble

ibeprofun wrote: »

Im going to make a bet on this...

After most people have exhausted their free race change tokens, ZOS will "tweek" bosmers, giving them their stealth passive back. Then, they get to charge us for new race change tokens.

It's actually just a business decision.

They gave us 3 (three) race change tokens. If one changes one's wood elf to another race and the devs revert the passive back to what it was, one would still have 2 (two) tokens to change back.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

With my ping, I can't dodge roll or bar swap etc. So it's useless for me. Yeah I know I'm one of those edge cases, so it's a damn good thing I enjoy the game.... in other directions.

Really, I love the game. I have various issues with the combat. I also have issues with the way quests are developed. Sure I can do a lot of the "lead up" stuff on any given faction quest line....

Eh, you don't get xp on that sort of thing. And you certainly do NOT get the skill point + goodies. With 2k ms ping (all the time - it's satellite, not getting better EVER) I simply cannot get through the "mini boss" at the end of most quest lines. It's actually pretty frustrating....

I play on a substandard (to most people) computer with an awful internet speed. Although I can do some of the stuff you say you can't, my setup and my skills (or lack thereof) makes it so that I'm not good at a lot in this game.

Despite those issues, playing a thief was never a problem. So, yeah, taking stealth away from wood elves crippled my game.

luizpaulom17 wrote: »

Stop crying m8... U just want that passive back so U can keep using cloak and snipe on BGs, like most elves and Cats used tu do... Get over it...

I hated losing my cat 8% crit, was crying on forums for it... and when changes came to Live got 2k more DPS on first try... They did a good job over all, ony orc now seems a bit OP, but still its more balanced.

What if I told you that I don't PVP and that my wood elf cannot cloak?

Ratzkifal wrote: »

#3 hiding faster has lots of uses in PvP, but doesn't help in a heist or sacramant all that much. An invisibility frame upon crouching wouldn't work either, because that would mess things up in PvP too (being equivalent to a dodgeroll at 0 cost). It could work on a cooldown though maybe. "Upon crouching, your character turns invisible for 1 second. This effect can only activate once every 16 seconds" or something along the lines. It would also work like a safety net in a way, when an NPC tries to attack you in a sacrament, because you screwed up and they noticed, you could crouch and they wouldn't chase you. What are your thoughts on that? Could that make up for the loss of 3meters?

Not for me, it wouldn't. Unless I misunderstood what you mean by this temporary invisibility. This is what I understood from your proposition : change the word stealth to invisibility and make it last only one sec.

IMO heists, and to an extent sacraments, are a very bad way to understand how stealth works in this game. Once you steal or kill successfully outside of heists and sacraments, the deed is done and you can keep on playing as if nothing had happened. Your char can only be punished if they are caught in the act.

Because of the mechanics of the game, giving chars a temporary invisibility won't help with stealing since it takes several seconds to place the char right, and even when someone gets the timing just right, the cool down would make the second and third attempt a nightmare, as we would have to wait even longer - while moving the char, so it doesn't get detected.

I only did one heist before the event that ended today. I failed that first one (went over the time limit), but thought it was because I didn't know the map. After getting more acquainted with them due to the event I realized that heists are the complete opposite of how stealing works in the rest of the game.

With day-to-day stealing, I crouch and approach slowly, repositioning my char ever so slightly to get a better angle. Then the game forces me to wait for a green light and a bell so I can finally activate the action (when picking a pocket. The last part is unnecessary when stealing from containers). Heists (and sacraments after the targets are down) are about speed.
While I do agree that a thief should also be good at running, running isn't stealth and the game doesn't have a mechanic that catches the thief/assassin after the fact.

Ratzkifal

KMarble wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

#3 hiding faster has lots of uses in PvP, but doesn't help in a heist or sacramant all that much. An invisibility frame upon crouching wouldn't work either, because that would mess things up in PvP too (being equivalent to a dodgeroll at 0 cost). It could work on a cooldown though maybe. "Upon crouching, your character turns invisible for 1 second. This effect can only activate once every 16 seconds" or something along the lines. It would also work like a safety net in a way, when an NPC tries to attack you in a sacrament, because you screwed up and they noticed, you could crouch and they wouldn't chase you. What are your thoughts on that? Could that make up for the loss of 3meters?

Not for me, it wouldn't. Unless I misunderstood what you mean by this temporary invisibility. This is what I understood from your proposition : change the word stealth to invisibility and make it last only one sec.

IMO heists, and to an extent sacraments, are a very bad way to understand how stealth works in this game. Once you steal or kill successfully outside of heists and sacraments, the deed is done and you can keep on playing as if nothing had happened. Your char can only be punished if they are caught in the act.

Because of the mechanics of the game, giving chars a temporary invisibility won't help with stealing since it takes several seconds to place the char right, and even when someone gets the timing just right, the cool down would make the second and third attempt a nightmare, as we would have to wait even longer - while moving the char, so it doesn't get detected.

I only did one heist before the event that ended today. I failed that first one (went over the time limit), but thought it was because I didn't know the map. After getting more acquainted with them due to the event I realized that heists are the complete opposite of how stealing works in the rest of the game.

With day-to-day stealing, I crouch and approach slowly, repositioning my char ever so slightly to get a better angle. Then the game forces me to wait for a green light and a bell so I can finally activate the action (when picking a pocket. The last part is unnecessary when stealing from containers). Heists (and sacraments after the targets are down) are about speed.
While I do agree that a thief should also be good at running, running isn't stealth and the game doesn't have a mechanic that catches the thief/assassin after the fact.

This is not meant to replace sneaking of course. But it allows to go into sneak successfully even during combat (as long as you get out of detection range during that 1 second). Think of it as pressing ctrl being like casting cloak at 0 magicka cost and 1second duration once every X seconds.

Outside of Heists and Sacraments, sneaking is not a punishable offense and in trespassing areas, being detected can often result in combat immediately upon being detected, which may just result in more people detecting you and more enemies fighting you. Sure, it wouldn't be as great as avoiding a bounty in the first place, but it would make getting away (and trying again) easier.

It's not optimal and I am not that big of a fan of my idea either. All I tried was to come up with a good compromise between being unique (the way ZOS seems to want it) and being actually useful for a stealth passive.

Cundu_Ertur

No offense, and I get what you are saying, but buying into this false narrative is not going to end well. Imagine that only one race would get bonuses relevant to being a warrior, and only one race would get bonuses relevant to being a mage. We don't have to imagine for the thief, because that's the moronic crapsack world that we're in. What is the archetype or role for all of the remaining 7 races? Nothing is what. Bosmer, along with Khajiit, have always been part of that thief archetype before. Stealth -- sneaky hiding better stealth -- is vital for a thief, the way magic is for a mage.

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

No offense, and I get what you are saying, but buying into this false narrative is not going to end well. Imagine that only one race would get bonuses relevant to being a warrior, and only one race would get bonuses relevant to being a mage. We don't have to imagine for the thief, because that's the moronic crapsack world that we're in. What is the archetype or role for all of the remaining 7 races? Nothing is what. Bosmer, along with Khajiit, have always been part of that thief archetype before. Stealth -- sneaky hiding better stealth -- is vital for a thief, the way magic is for a mage.

I'm not buying into it, don't worry. Think of it as proof through contraposition. Since it's pretty damn impossible to come up with something that allows Bosmer and Khajiit to be equally sneaky in two very different ways, we can only conclude that the opposite must be the case and we either need to accept shared passives if we want to stay true to the lore or the stealth system needs to be expanded enough to make room for more unique approaches to stealth.
Eitherway, ZOS needs to do something about it, because we won't accept having our lore get compromised!

Cundu_Ertur

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

No offense, and I get what you are saying, but buying into this false narrative is not going to end well. Imagine that only one race would get bonuses relevant to being a warrior, and only one race would get bonuses relevant to being a mage. We don't have to imagine for the thief, because that's the moronic crapsack world that we're in. What is the archetype or role for all of the remaining 7 races? Nothing is what. Bosmer, along with Khajiit, have always been part of that thief archetype before. Stealth -- sneaky hiding better stealth -- is vital for a thief, the way magic is for a mage.

I'm not buying into it, don't worry. Think of it as proof through contraposition. Since it's pretty damn impossible to come up with something that allows Bosmer and Khajiit to be equally sneaky in two very different ways, we can only conclude that the opposite must be the case and we either need to accept shared passives if we want to stay true to the lore or the stealth system needs to be expanded enough to make room for more unique approaches to stealth.
Eitherway, ZOS needs to do something about it, because we won't accept having our lore get compromised!

Ahhhh, the double secret triple reverse play. Sorry I blew it for ya, man.

BlueRaven

anadandy wrote: »

Today on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/b2jriv/the_sneaky_bosmer/

The comments were particularly interesting, it appears that even now there are some people who didn't know Bosmers lost their stealth passive.

alanmatillab16_ESO

Sithis' Shadow are you lot still banging on about this?

If you have not adapted to the change by now you should reroll something easier because a stealth character is not for you. Wycymyr my Nord Thief laughs at those that need the old Bosmer passive to be able to give pockets a good rummage

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

Today on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/b2jriv/the_sneaky_bosmer/

The comments were particularly interesting, it appears that even now there are some people who didn't know Bosmers lost their stealth passive.

They missed the login message about having their skill points refunded?

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

Today on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/b2jriv/the_sneaky_bosmer/

The comments were particularly interesting, it appears that even now there are some people who didn't know Bosmers lost their stealth passive.

They missed the login message about having their skill points refunded?

Oh I know a few people who haven't spend their skill points on their racials yet, and not because they refuse to take Hunter's Eye...

MLGProPlayer

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Could we get a lore explanation for why Bosmer no longer have a stealth passive?

The lore seems pretty clear on Bosmer being a "stealthy, thieving" race, so them losing this passive doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Ratzkifal

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Could we get a lore explanation for why Bosmer no longer have a stealth passive?

The lore seems pretty clear on Bosmer being a "stealthy, thieving" race, so them losing this passive doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

@MLGProPlayer I'd rather have the stealth passive back than getting new "lore" that contradicts what we know and love.

Jaraal

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

@ZOS_LeamonTuttle

Could we get a lore explanation for why Bosmer no longer have a stealth passive?

The lore seems pretty clear on Bosmer being a "stealthy, thieving" race, so them losing this passive doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

It doesn't make sense, but it can make dollars by forcing people who actually like being a successful thief into playing Khajiits.

Ratzkifal

Was just looking at Alcast's race guide. This one cracked me up.

"Bosmer racial passives have a strong focus on stealth based gameplay style."

Where is that strong focus now?

wedgebert

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Was just looking at Alcast's race guide. This one cracked me up.

"Bosmer racial passives have a strong focus on stealth based gameplay style."

Where is that strong focus now?

I don't know, this thread is over 1,200 replies about stealth gameplay. I'd say that's pretty focused!

tyggerbob

That's because this is an important issue and we should keep it in @ZOS_GinaBruno and @Gilliamtherogue 's notifications so they understand what this means to us.
Anyone know the @ name for the new loremaster?

Cundu_Ertur

We should be sand in the shoe, not a nail in the head. Just my opinion.