"We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in the forums, we shall fight in the zone chats and discords, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in reddit, we shall defend our stealth passive, whatever the cost may be. "

-Winston Churchill.

(with some help)

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

We understand that some are happy with the racial passives and how others are not. Debating the changes is completely acceptable. However, baiting and flaming other members of the community, as well as bashing, are all violations of the rules that we have in place. Moving forward, we ask that all posts be kept civil and constructive, as well as with in the rules. If there may be any question in regards to the rules, please do feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Greetings Forum Overlord ZOS_GregoryV,

I appreciate the enforcement of forum rules, but I believe the comments from forum user Seraphayel: "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" are in line with the nature of provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking according to forum rules. Perhaps he/she does not understand that other players are allowed to give their feedback to ZOS but there were no constructive arguments in those statements, it was however akin to telling us that our feedback does not matter and we should just shut up and walk away. You having to snip several comments in this thread is already proof of that as they were all in reply to the comments from the above mentioned user Seraphayel.

Regards,
Sad stealthless Bosmer with bounty

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm voicing a contrary opinion and stating facts. You're absolutely allowed to give your feedback, so am I. That's not baiting and that's not provoking at all. It's just in game reality as it stands by right now. For your surprise, none of my comments were edited in the first place. Only the reactions. There might be a reason why this is the case. Just because your comments get a lot of agrees or awesomes in this thread it mustn't be the only truth.

Your opinion being that we should stop this thread and move on? Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it. You say we're allowed to, great you understand that. So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

*snip*

Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it.

*snip*

So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Again, I am not silencing anything. You can post about this topic as much as you want as it's your right to do so. If you rate this as feedback, it's too. I don't want to be rude when I say "move on".

Based on previous experiences I just know that this thread will get you nowhere and "until ZOS does something about it" is a very, very entitled statement. ZOS does not have to do anything about it just to please you. You might think they do but they don't. This is the biggest problem here in this thread. Just because you might be right in your heads about this you are not necessarily right in the bigger picture or in general.

Again, I say follow your own advice and move on. You're not adding anything we're not already aware of and to think otherwise only comes across as condescending.

Eiron77 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

*snip*

Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it.

*snip*

So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Again, I am not silencing anything. You can post about this topic as much as you want as it's your right to do so. If you rate this as feedback, it's too. I don't want to be rude when I say "move on".

Based on previous experiences I just know that this thread will get you nowhere and "until ZOS does something about it" is a very, very entitled statement. ZOS does not have to do anything about it just to please you. You might think they do but they don't. This is the biggest problem here in this thread. Just because you might be right in your heads about this you are not necessarily right in the bigger picture or in general.

Again, I say follow your own advice and move on. You're not adding anything we're not already aware of and to think otherwise only comes across as condescending.

I think I'll follow this advice and leave this topic were it belongs, in the past. So best of luck with it.

Nevertheless, your complaints are not adding anything you're not already aware of either.

max_only wrote: »

Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

This would be ideal. Gets rid of the virtually useless Stealth Detection, restores Bosmer lore (and sneaking ability), yet is still a nerf from the previous perma 10% damage from stealth they didn't want us to have any more. And Khajiit still retains the advantage by having a flat 10% crit and heals buff without having to burn stamina like they are requiring Bosmer to do by spamming roll dodge.

Now we got this "patch" on consoles.
Now every stupid moron can detect me.

It feels like my Bosmer is singing this, while sneaking.

https://youtu.be/UCxgbOBVSfM

Console just got this patch and those players didn't have access to PTS - so their experience with the changes is fresh. They deserve to be heard just as much as anyone.

And better to keep feedback in one place rather than eleventy hundred threads *coughsiegechangescough*

"Rage, rage against the nerfing of the stealth."

- Dylan Thomas (unpublished, possibly apocryphal, early draft)

max_only wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

*snip*

Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it.

*snip*

So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Again, I am not silencing anything. You can post about this topic as much as you want as it's your right to do so. If you rate this as feedback, it's too. I don't want to be rude when I say "move on".

Based on previous experiences I just know that this thread will get you nowhere and "until ZOS does something about it" is a very, very entitled statement. ZOS does not have to do anything about it just to please you. You might think they do but they don't. This is the biggest problem here in this thread. Just because you might be right in your heads about this you are not necessarily right in the bigger picture or in general.

Again, I say follow your own advice and move on. You're not adding anything we're not already aware of and to think otherwise only comes across as condescending.

I think I'll follow this advice and leave this topic were it belongs, in the past. So best of luck with it.

Nevertheless, your complaints are not adding anything you're not already aware of either.

Well thanks for bumping it as long as you did. I appreciate it.

Also, what you say makes sense. Radical acceptance of reality is the first step in coping with change. That is actual a psychological phenomenon. AND, not but (the word but is dismissive), and invalidation of other people is understandably perceived negatively. You may not have meant to be rude, and still it was received that way, which is valid.

It is my belief that only those who actually like Zos and this game are the ones who participate. If I hated Zos and this game and had zero faith in them then I wouldn’t be continuing this thread. I would just quit. I know that Zos can change, that nothing is written in rubedite and it’s my continued faith in Zos that gives me the energy to persist. I’m passionate about this game or else I wouldn’t make the time to study, test, research, respond etc.

Agreed, we love the TES series and the lore. A game with this much established lore, you just shouldn't mess with it and leave the lore alone. Voicing a dislike about changing something that has been established for a long time, just shows how passionate people are about this game and series.

macsmooth wrote: »

Ok just got this patch on console and my nightblade wood elf who has every single passive for stealth and wearing nme and nt and I am failing heist now, is this new detect passive a reverse passive that allows for NPCs to detect me first getting detected from a metres away

I was hoping it wouldn’t be that bad knowing I have all the passives that make you invisible and the gear but this

I had none of the stealth sets and only legerdemain and wood elf skills maxed up (still working on thief and assassin skills). Because I went through the zone that drops NM before we learnt about the changes I deconned all the pieces I got from it. My only saving grace is that I began getting pieces of NT after the patch notes were out, so I kept them.

Even though there was still a lot of room for improvement on my main, I felt the changes. I hadn't done a sacrament or heist before it, but I don't believe those are the best places to test the changes. I felt it on my day to day activity in the game. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for those of you who spent years not only evolving your characters, but learning how to be good at it.

Stealing and murdering are counter-intuitive to the rest of the game play - in most circumstances I see players charging and being told that speed is of paramount importance. But when the play involves stealth we need to contain the urge to hit that button fast, we need to approach with caution and wait until the perfect moment arrives.

Truthsnark wrote: »

Sorry all you console players, we tried The voices of the Bosmer will be heard! We want our stealth back! We are tiny, morally ambiguous in our eating habits, and STUBBORN.

I support simply swapping the stealth detection back to stealth radius reduction and leaving everything else as is. Even though privately I think putting an offensive bonus on a defensive skill is completely wackadoodle.

Me too. We have a saying in my country for when people begin to get a little obnoxious about someone's short height - the best perfumes come in small bottles, and so do the worse poisons. Works well for Bosmers IMO.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

"We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in the forums, we shall fight in the zone chats and discords, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in reddit, we shall defend our stealth passive, whatever the cost may be. "

-Winston Churchill.

(with some help)

Can we make that our slogan?

Anyway, just came around to pitch in my two septims with my own experiences since the change with my secondary main, a little Bosmer named Lara. Lara does a lot of thieving every session, primarily strongboxes and containers. While this is still highly lucrative and successful, even fun, it is not what it once was.

Hardly a day goes by when she doesn't get caught at least once (today it was 4-5 times). And it is almost always by an npc that is just far enough away that if she had had that 3m reduction to detection radius, she would have gotten clean away. True she has passives that increase the speed at which the bounties go away, but even a small bounty can massively complicate a thieving run as you need to be even more aware of guards and such.

She has to sit around and analyze npc schedules a lot more, waiting for the just the right time to make her move. And if she is just a little off...If one npc turns at the wrong moment...BOUNTY!

Homes are now much harder to loot as well; and some are, in my opinion, nearly impossible due to how the npcs inside move around.

Delves and quests aren't too much harder to sneak through, but are more tense as I'm always having to remain highly attentive to where enemies are and debating if Lara can just sneak by X or if she needs Cloak to do so, etc...

I could go on but in summary, Bosmer Stealth may not be dead but it is harder and a little less fun. Overland stuff didn't change much but thieving has. I haven't even tried Heists or Sacraments and frankly have little urge to do so. Its not enough to make me quit or even swear of ESO+, but it is frustrating and i can totally understand why some people are doing just that.

Truthsnark wrote: »

Sorry all you console players, we tried The voices of the Bosmer will be heard! We want our stealth back! We are tiny, morally ambiguous in our eating habits, and STUBBORN.

I support simply swapping the stealth detection back to stealth radius reduction and leaving everything else as is. Even though privately I think putting an offensive bonus on a defensive skill is completely wackadoodle.

You know what? If they had done this back when we first complained before the PTS even started, I'd buy that. But now that the fullness of how horribly the devs have completely screwed the Bosmer over has had a chance to sink in, no.

1. Swap disease/poison resistance between Argonians and Bosmer.
2. Return stealth to what it had been.
3. Bosmer need a bonus to bow damage greater than what Orcs and Dunmer have (or equal damage with a slight boost to range).