Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

tyggerbob

I agree with you, but some people want to be all in, I guess. it's all about the immersion. I heard people say they're rolling a Khajiit for the expansion.

Ratzkifal

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.

They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

Yeah I'm also not buying that theory. There is no incentive for ZOS to make people switch to a specific race when they release a new chapter. They make exactly as much money if any unpopular race suddenly becomes BiS. Besides, from the way people are always telling us "Bosmer got buffed though", stealth hardly matters to the people that switch races.

Jaraal

HankTwo wrote: »

tyggerbob wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

I wouldn't go so far as to say destroyed. And yes I have that same build.. but when you combined it with the passive, Bosmers were nearly invisible

So what, now its just easy mode instead of super easy mode with such a build? I'm not even sure why people want to be almost invisible, where is the challenge in that? I completed both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on a heavy armor non-vampire nord (including heist and sacrament achievements). At least I had to play somewhat careful doing it this way.

I understand that some players dislike this change, but they should stick to the facts. Stealth gameplay is manageable on any race and I don't see that ever changing in the future. Claiming otherwise is just dishonest.

The facts are that Bosmer has been the master of stealth for 20 years. Now they are tied for worst stealth race in the game. And a lot of people rolled wood elves because they liked the tradition of stealth associated with it. Now ZOS is revising history for no apparent reason, other than to make people who prefer that playstyle switch to cats.

If you have a better explanation, let's hear it!

wedgebert

HankTwo wrote: »

Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

There are multiple reasons.

1: Some of us like to do at least a little roleplaying in our MMORPG. We don't necessarily go all out, but some of us have a character in our heads and it increases our enjoyment of the game by using that to partially guide our actions. For example, I've play ES games (one first play through at least) as a Bosmer thief who ends up doing the main quest out of personal gain more than to be the hero. However I'm not a wanton murderhobo. I ESO I'll steal everything I can, but I don't murder my targets.

2: The justice gameplay is kinda weak and shallow. Walking directly past an NPC in a corner and then crouching so that he magically forgets I'm there isn't exactly making anybody feel like Garrett from the Thief series. Nor is the randomly getting caught even though your Hidden eye never budged. So removing some of the annoyances can be a nice boon.

3: Some people just straight up want to be OP. For some people it's soloing dungeons, others it's stealing everything that's not nailed down and then stealing the nails. These are likely the people who wear the sets you mentioned and are now Khajiit.

4: Some people are just lazy and don't want to have to carry around and switch sets when they decide to be sneaky.

5: Some people like to sneak past as many enemies in delves, overland, and dungeons (where possible) as they can. Wearing pure stealth equipment puts them at a serious disadvantage when they are caught.

HankTwo

Jaraal wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

tyggerbob wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

I wouldn't go so far as to say destroyed. And yes I have that same build.. but when you combined it with the passive, Bosmers were nearly invisible

So what, now its just easy mode instead of super easy mode with such a build? I'm not even sure why people want to be almost invisible, where is the challenge in that? I completed both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on a heavy armor non-vampire nord (including heist and sacrament achievements). At least I had to play somewhat careful doing it this way.

I understand that some players dislike this change, but they should stick to the facts. Stealth gameplay is manageable on any race and I don't see that ever changing in the future. Claiming otherwise is just dishonest.

The facts are that Bosmer has been the master of stealth for 20 years. Now they are tied for worst stealth race in the game. And a lot of people rolled wood elves because they liked the tradition of stealth associated with it. Now ZOS is revising history for no apparent reason, other than to make people who prefer that playstyle switch to cats.

If you have a better explanation, let's hear it!

Tied for the worst stealth race is simply BS. 1st they get the biggest stam pool of all races tied with Orc, Imperial and Redguard. 2nd the 3% cost reduction of imperial is pretty much irrelevant, because with all the other (much higher) stealth cost reductions you get, sneak cost becomes minimal anyway. You get 49% reduction from 7 pieces medium, another 40% from legerdemain, up to 35% from CP and up to 77% from sets, so how is 3% relevant? It's not unlikely that in case of the build I posted the sneak cost would be exactly the same for both Bosmer and imperial because of rounding (8 on the bow bar, 5 on the dw bar).

The second Imperial sustain passive, as well as the Redguard passive require you to deal damage, so they are not useful for a pure stealth build, while Orc doesnt has any sustain passives. The bosmer passive stam recovery on the other hand kicks in the moment you stop moving in sneak (even if its just a second). Its simply more useful for a stealth build.

So tell me how Bosmer is tied for the worst stealh race in the game, because to me they look like the second best choice.

The reason why ZOS did this change is also pretty obvious. They wanted to give each race unique flavor passives. Which meant that either Kahjiit or Bosmer had to lose the stealth bonus. Same thing happened to Argonian/Bosmer with the disease/poison immunity. I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful.

Khipu

@HankTwo Said
",,,I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful. "

Yea like uhhh... idk, their stealth passive back. Like what is in the Title of the thread, which is what this thread is all about. No idea why it's so difficult for some people to understand that that's all we're asking for because that's why we played bosmer because that was and always has been Their Flavor.

Koronach

HankTwo wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

tyggerbob wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

I wouldn't go so far as to say destroyed. And yes I have that same build.. but when you combined it with the passive, Bosmers were nearly invisible

So what, now its just easy mode instead of super easy mode with such a build? I'm not even sure why people want to be almost invisible, where is the challenge in that? I completed both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on a heavy armor non-vampire nord (including heist and sacrament achievements). At least I had to play somewhat careful doing it this way.

I understand that some players dislike this change, but they should stick to the facts. Stealth gameplay is manageable on any race and I don't see that ever changing in the future. Claiming otherwise is just dishonest.

The facts are that Bosmer has been the master of stealth for 20 years. Now they are tied for worst stealth race in the game. And a lot of people rolled wood elves because they liked the tradition of stealth associated with it. Now ZOS is revising history for no apparent reason, other than to make people who prefer that playstyle switch to cats.

If you have a better explanation, let's hear it!

Tied for the worst stealth race is simply BS. 1st they get the biggest stam pool of all races tied with Orc, Imperial and Redguard. 2nd the 3% cost reduction of imperial is pretty much irrelevant, because with all the other (much higher) stealth cost reductions you get, sneak cost becomes minimal anyway. You get 49% reduction from 7 pieces medium, another 40% from legerdemain, up to 35% from CP and up to 77% from sets, so how is 3% relevant? It's not unlikely that in case of the build I posted the sneak cost would be exactly the same for both Bosmer and imperial because of rounding (8 on the bow bar, 5 on the dw bar).

The second Imperial sustain passive, as well as the Redguard passive require you to deal damage, so they are not useful for a pure stealth build, while Orc doesnt has any sustain passives. The bosmer passive stam recovery on the other hand kicks in the moment you stop moving in sneak (even if its just a second). Its simply more useful for a stealth build.

So tell me how Bosmer is tied for the worst stealh race in the game, because to me they look like the second best choice.

The reason why ZOS did this change is also pretty obvious. They wanted to give each race unique flavor passives. Which meant that either Kahjiit or Bosmer had to lose the stealth bonus. Same thing happened to Argonian/Bosmer with the disease/poison immunity. I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful.

It's bad idea when the in game lore of ESO states differently.

HankTwo

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

@HankTwo Said
",,,I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful. "

Yea like uhhh... idk, their stealth passive back. Like what is in the Title of the thread, which is what this thread is all about. No idea why it's so difficult for some people to understand that that's all we're asking for because that's why we played bosmer because that was and always has been Their Flavor.

I was just explaining to Jaraal why I think ZOS did this change, since he asked me, you know? And btw, the idea behind a forum is to have people with different viewpoints sharing their opinions and ideas. If you want a meeting place for bosmer players who dislike this change and nobody else create a private discord.

Khipu

HankTwo wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

@HankTwo Said
",,,I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful. "

Yea like uhhh... idk, their stealth passive back. Like what is in the Title of the thread, which is what this thread is all about. No idea why it's so difficult for some people to understand that that's all we're asking for because that's why we played bosmer because that was and always has been Their Flavor.

I was just explaining to Jaraal why I think ZOS did this change, since he asked me, you know? And btw, the idea behind a forum is to have people with different viewpoints sharing their opinions and ideas. If you want a meeting place for bosmer players who dislike this change and nobody else create a private discord.

"Private meeting place, only" or "you stop talking in our thread" was no where in my statement. You also could not possibly derive that from anything I said. You want to talk to Jaraal directly and not say anything that can be quoted in public. You could take your own advice, I guess. I'm just following this thread because I'm interested in it. It affects me. When I'm moved enough to type, well that means I'm moved enough to type. lol which isn't very often.


tl;dr don't add words to my posts please, thank you

A_Silverius

HankTwo wrote: »

I was just explaining to Jaraal why I think ZOS did this change, since he asked me, you know? And btw, the idea behind a forum is to have people with different viewpoints sharing their opinions and ideas. If you want a meeting place for bosmer players who dislike this change and nobody else create a private discord.

Why give an explaination for something that ZOS has already given: "Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)" Stealth detection makes sense huh? :^)

HankTwo

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

@HankTwo Said
",,,I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful. "

Yea like uhhh... idk, their stealth passive back. Like what is in the Title of the thread, which is what this thread is all about. No idea why it's so difficult for some people to understand that that's all we're asking for because that's why we played bosmer because that was and always has been Their Flavor.

I was just explaining to Jaraal why I think ZOS did this change, since he asked me, you know? And btw, the idea behind a forum is to have people with different viewpoints sharing their opinions and ideas. If you want a meeting place for bosmer players who dislike this change and nobody else create a private discord.

"Private meeting place, only" or "you stop talking in our thread" was no where in my statement. You also could not possibly derive that from anything I said. You want to talk to Jaraal directly and not say anything that can be quoted in public. You could take your own advice, I guess. I'm just following this thread because I'm interested in it. It affects me. When I'm moved enough to type, well that means I'm moved enough to type. lol which isn't very often.


tl;dr don't add words to my posts please, thank you

Your initial reply wasnt really constructive to begin with, implying that I have difficulties understanding the whole premise of this thread. I'm fully aware that many of the players who posted in this thread just want the old stealth passive back, that much is obvious. Doesn't change my opinion, though.

Khipu

let's say; Bosmer got max majicka passive, stam gone.
Oh, but I could just put a link to an Alcast build that would give you more stamina, what's the problem? At that point I guess I would be constructive?

I'm not posting to change any one person's opinion, btw.

Korlian

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

I did the grind, grind, grind for night mother's embrace gear in Deshaan and kept my Night Silence gear for my two stamina Bosmer, and got Night Terror jewelry from Stonefalls with Shadow Dancer gear from Greenshade and 4 bits of Magnus' Gift for my goofy hybrid. That gets them all about 2/3 of what they would have before.

And what did you have to sacrifice? Are you still able to i.e. play solo with bow/dagger? Or are you squishy now? Powerless? Or close to the same as with the gear you had with the sneak racial we used to have?

Ratzkifal

Korlian wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

I did the grind, grind, grind for night mother's embrace gear in Deshaan and kept my Night Silence gear for my two stamina Bosmer, and got Night Terror jewelry from Stonefalls with Shadow Dancer gear from Greenshade and 4 bits of Magnus' Gift for my goofy hybrid. That gets them all about 2/3 of what they would have before.

And what did you have to sacrifice? Are you still able to i.e. play solo with bow/dagger? Or are you squishy now? Powerless? Or close to the same as with the gear you had with the sneak racial we used to have?

Quite simple, if you wear that kind of gear, people won't let you go into raids and vet dungeons are much harder. It's convenience of having that racial bonus that allows you to not wear stealth sets and still be effective that I like. Can't speak for others obviously, but if you want to go for maximum effiency, it's still a hefty nerf.

wedgebert

Just to point out that Bosmer is not tied for worst at stealth. It's demonstrably the worst, at least when taking PvP into account (which is the only place the stealth detection works anyways).

Obviously Khajiit are now #1.
Imperials are #2 with the sneak cost reduction (can't use stam recovery while moving and when stopped it comes back super fast outside of combat anyways)
Every race [except] Bosmer tied for #3.
Bosmer is solidly last place.

Here's the reasoning, let's say you want to sneak into an area as a Bosmer.

If there is a single guard, then you will be detected just like any other non-Khajiit player. So long as you avoid the standard detection radius, you can cause whatever mischief you had planned.

If there are multiple guards, nothing changes except it becomes more difficult.

Now if there is a stealthed guard, your stealth detection bonus is going to cause his Hidden indicator to begin opening sooner than it would have normally. In fact, you won't even realize the stealthed person is there (unless they're also a Bosmer) until you get closer. If the stealthed enemy notices this, they can tell their friends to fire off a Magelight or drink a detection pot sooner than for any other race.

So now a Stealthed Bosmer is a liability when trying to sneak past other players.

Note, that this is technically true of all stealthing players who have reduced stealth radiuses. It's just now instead of only having to worry about a reduced stealth radius, Bosmer have an extra detection radius on top of that.

I'd be curious for some experiments to see just how far away from a Bomser your hidden eye starts opening compared to other races.

HankTwo

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

let's say; Bosmer got max majicka passive, stam gone.
Oh, but I could just put a link to an Alcast build that would give you more stamina, what's the problem? At that point I guess I would be constructive?

I'm not posting to change any one person's opinion, btw.

Uhm, no. PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

The reason why I posted in this thread were misconceptions like this: 'stealth gameplay as a bosmer is destroyed', or 'bosmer are now tied for worst stealth race in the game'. They are simply untrue, so I felt like debunking them.

anadandy

HankTwo wrote: »

PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

Emphasis mine.

Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

HankTwo

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

Emphasis mine.

Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

As I wrote in an earlier post my impression is that ZOS wanted to give each race unique flavor passives. So I don't think that particular change was because of game balance (wouldn't make sense to do this for balancing reasons, as you said).

anadandy

HankTwo wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

Emphasis mine.

Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

As I wrote in an earlier post my impression is that ZOS wanted to give each race unique flavor passives.

Then, imo, they failed miserably by taking a flavor passive that Bosmer have had for 20+ years* and tossing it for the sake of "uniqueness" - as if Bosmer and Khajiit were not unique enough already.

It seems to me the uniqueness problem was really only that the passive for both races was called "Stealthy" and ZOS just tossed a dart at the board and Bosmer came out the loser. The rename, plus the other changes were plenty to make the races unique without gutting the core racial identity of Bosmer.

I wish I had your faith in ZOS' reasoning, I truly do - but the whole thing was low effort nonsense and months of feedback pointing that out were summarily ignored.

* And seriously, don't even get me started on this whole 25 Years of TES!!!! celebration they keep touting when they didn't give a thought about 25 years of Bosmer history.


Edit: And I see your edit and acknowledge, thanks.

HankTwo

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

Emphasis mine.

Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

As I wrote in an earlier post my impression is that ZOS wanted to give each race unique flavor passives.

Then, imo, they failed miserably by taking a flavor passive that Bosmer have had for 20+ years and tossing it for the sake of "uniqueness" - as if Bosmer and Khajiit were not unique enough already.

It seems to me the uniqueness problem was really only that the passive for both races was called "Stealthy" and ZOS just tossed a dart at the board and Bosmer came out the loser. The rename, plus the other changes were plenty to make the races unique without gutting the core racial identity of Bosmer.

I wish I had your faith in ZOS' reasoning, I truly do - but the whole thing was low effort nonsense and months of feedback pointing that out were summarily ignored.

If you ask me, Bosmer should get something like 'reduce the speed penalty of sneak by 25/50/75%'. I don't know if it would please the crowd here, but it would be something different from Khajiit while still being useful for stealth gameplay.

Edit: or maybe a flat movement speed bonus while in sneak, so it could stack with the night's silence set or the vampire passive.

wedgebert

HankTwo wrote: »

The reason why I posted in this thread were misconceptions like this: 'stealth gameplay as a bosmer is destroyed', or 'bosmer are now tied for worst stealth race in the game'. They are simply untrue, so I felt like debunking them.

You didn't debunk anything though. You literally cannot play a Bosmer thief as anything other than average now. In PvE, both Khajiit and Imperial have advantages to stealth gameplay while Bosmer do not. This cannot be overcome by putting on sets or changing playstyles because everyone else put those same sets on (rendering Bosmer average still) and changing playstyle is the exact thing many of us are complaining about.

Bosmer racial identity is that of a stealthy thief. Go check the lore. It's what other races think of when they think Bosmer and it's how the Bosmer think of themselves. We literally cannot play Bosmer as Bosmer anymore than can Nord can play the best magicka user in of Tamriel.

As to being the worst stealth race, see my post right before yours. In PvP, Bosmer are literally the worst at stealth.

anadandy

HankTwo wrote: »

If you ask me, Bosmer should get something like 'reduce the speed penalty of sneak by 25/50/75%'. I don't know if it would please the crowd here, but it would be something different from Khajiit while still being useful for stealth gameplay.

That was definitely one of the suggestions that came up in the PTS discussions (ignored). Basically anything stealth related that would have had utility in both game modes would be better than the crap we got. But here we are, months later, still being ignored, still not having the fact that Stealth Detection is utterly useless in PVE acknowledged and, speaking only for myself, now I'm just over it - gimme my stealth radius back.

zaria

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Korlian wrote: »

Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.

They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

Yeah I'm also not buying that theory. There is no incentive for ZOS to make people switch to a specific race when they release a new chapter. They make exactly as much money if any unpopular race suddenly becomes BiS. Besides, from the way people are always telling us "Bosmer got buffed though", stealth hardly matters to the people that switch races.

This, last thing they did to Khajiit was nerfing them pretty hard by switching to crit damage.
Who was an hard nerf outside of ganking.
Add the standard 258 damage and 2K resources. most got.
You do not want PvP buffs, Bosmer, Khajiit and Argonians agree.

Ratzkifal

HankTwo wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

Emphasis mine.

Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

As I wrote in an earlier post my impression is that ZOS wanted to give each race unique flavor passives.

Then, imo, they failed miserably by taking a flavor passive that Bosmer have had for 20+ years and tossing it for the sake of "uniqueness" - as if Bosmer and Khajiit were not unique enough already.

It seems to me the uniqueness problem was really only that the passive for both races was called "Stealthy" and ZOS just tossed a dart at the board and Bosmer came out the loser. The rename, plus the other changes were plenty to make the races unique without gutting the core racial identity of Bosmer.

I wish I had your faith in ZOS' reasoning, I truly do - but the whole thing was low effort nonsense and months of feedback pointing that out were summarily ignored.

If you ask me, Bosmer should get something like 'reduce the speed penalty of sneak by 25/50/75%'. I don't know if it would please the crowd here, but it would be something different from Khajiit while still being useful for stealth gameplay.

Edit: or maybe a flat movement speed bonus while in sneak, so it could stack with the night's silence set or the vampire passive.

It would certainly please me, although sneaking faster than walking would be a bit silly and that Khajiit are generally more acrobatic than Bosmer, but at least it would acknowledge that stealth is an important part of Bosmer identity.

DenMoria

There's "Stealth" in ESO?

Who knew?

HankTwo

wedgebert wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

The reason why I posted in this thread were misconceptions like this: 'stealth gameplay as a bosmer is destroyed', or 'bosmer are now tied for worst stealth race in the game'. They are simply untrue, so I felt like debunking them.

You didn't debunk anything though. You literally cannot play a Bosmer thief as anything other than average now. In PvE, both Khajiit and Imperial have advantages to stealth gameplay while Bosmer do not. This cannot be overcome by putting on sets or changing playstyles because everyone else put those same sets on (rendering Bosmer average still) and changing playstyle is the exact thing many of us are complaining about.

Bosmer racial identity is that of a stealthy thief. Go check the lore. It's what other races think of when they think Bosmer and it's how the Bosmer think of themselves. We literally cannot play Bosmer as Bosmer anymore than can Nord can play the best magicka user in of Tamriel.

As to being the worst stealth race, see my post right before yours. In PvP, Bosmer are literally the worst at stealth.

Look man, base sneak cost is 133 stamina per 0.5 seconds. If you run 5 medium armor pieces with legerdemain leveled and 30% additional reduction from CP you will end up with a sneak cost of 133*0.65*0.6*0.7=36.309 at max. According to uesp the legerdemain and medium armor passives get added to each other before multiplying, so that would lead to a much lower cost of 23.275. However, since I can't confirm that right now and for the sake of the argument lets use the higher number. With the Imperial passive you would end up with a sneak cost of 36.309*0.97=35.21973.

So, the Bosmer would have a sneak cost of 36 stamina per 0.5 second and the imperial would have a sneak cost of 35. Now, lets look at the Bosmer stam recovery of 258. You would get multiple percentage boosts to this passive, but again and for the sake of the argument, lets ingore this. For the Bosmer player to be able to sneak longer than the Imperial he would only have to stop once in 129 seconds, or a bit longer than 2 minutes. In your usual sneaky PvE you would most definitely stop more often than that, to grab loot, open treasures, pickpocket or use the blade of woe.

In case of PvP its a bit more complicated, but apart from Nightblades sneaky gameplay doesnt really work anyway, and their stealth capabilities are entirely based on cloak.

Cundu_Ertur

anadandy wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

If you ask me, Bosmer should get something like 'reduce the speed penalty of sneak by 25/50/75%'. I don't know if it would please the crowd here, but it would be something different from Khajiit while still being useful for stealth gameplay.

That was definitely one of the suggestions that came up in the PTS discussions (ignored). Basically anything stealth related that would have had utility in both game modes would be better than the crap we got. But here we are, months later, still being ignored, still not having the fact that Stealth Detection is utterly useless in PVE acknowledged and, speaking only for myself, now I'm just over it - gimme my stealth radius back.

Nope, speaking for me, too. Stealth is the only stealth that matters.

And I've already provided a proposal how it could be done without replicating the mechanic that Khajiit have. The Khajiit get a stealth bonus like from a set, give Bosmer a stealth bonus like the medium armor line at 15/30/40% to replace the counter-productive detection nerf. The rest of the passive could even stay the same, whatever.

Blinkin8r

I wanted to get in some playtime on my Bosmer Stamblade before commenting here. This has been my main toon for years and I was definitely nervous when I saw they were changing their passives.
Pre Wrathstone: My Bosmer Stamblade cleared all Craglorn HM's, VAS, VMOL, VHOF, and achieved Flawless Conqueror, and was a solid player in Cyrodiil.
Since Wrathstone: I've done all of those things and I'm still loving it in Cyrodiil. The extra penetration and speed after roll dodge is pretty niche but I'm loving it. For end game content at least, Bosmer is in a better place than it was before.

Now if you're on a Bosmer that isn't a nightblade, you may have slightly more difficulty than before doing DB sacraments, thieves guild heists, and pickpocketing maybe. But if you've trying those on any race on a non nightblade I'd recommend Invis, Speed pots. They're in the game, use them.

The only other reason I see people complaining about this passive change is lore. In other games, Bosmer are sneaky. This isn't other games. Zos runs it, they write the lore, they decide how different races will perform and if you don't like it and want to play a game where Bosmer get stealth passives, go play that game.

Overall I think Bosmer benefited greatly from this change and am very happy with where it is.

wedgebert

That's actually the first time anyone has given me the stamina cost for stealth. I've googling it but I guess I never found the right search terms.

You're missing a bit of the point here though. No one is arguing that Imperials are masters of sneaking around. The point is that they have an advantage to stealth while Bosmer do not.

In ESO Lore, Bosmer, not Imperials, not Khajiit, not anybody else, are the (player) race known for having extraordinary stealth abilities. If any race was going to have an advantage at stealth, it would be Bosmer. Prior to Wrathstone, Bosmer and Khajiit shared the same stealthy traits and I don't remember seeing a single person complain that they felt too much like the other race.

Now the Bosmer Hunter's Eye is a mishmash of nonsensical abilities that are not only bad in and of themselves, they just don't work for Bosmer. We're supposed to be a race of stealth sneak thieves with an affinity for bows. Instead we're supposed to be rolling around the battlefield spotting hidden players. I guess that explains the reduced fall damage, a race that lives atop giant migratory trees and decides to roll everywhere is going to fall a lot.

If Dunmer and Nords swapped their fire/cold resistances, people wouldn't say "well, just equip X to fix it and you'll be fine", they'd wonder why such a lore unfriendly change was made.

It doesn't matter if we lost 10% or 0.01% in terms of abilities. The loss doesn't make sense and runs counter to 25 years of established world building.

A_Silverius

Blinkin8r wrote: »

I wanted to get in some playtime on my Bosmer Stamblade before commenting here. This has been my main toon for years and I was definitely nervous when I saw they were changing their passives.
Pre Wrathstone: My Bosmer Stamblade cleared all Craglorn HM's, VAS, VMOL, VHOF, and achieved Flawless Conqueror, and was a solid player in Cyrodiil.
Since Wrathstone: I've done all of those things and I'm still loving it in Cyrodiil. The extra penetration and speed after roll dodge is pretty niche but I'm loving it. For end game content at least, Bosmer is in a better place than it was before.

Now if you're on a Bosmer that isn't a nightblade, you may have slightly more difficulty than before doing DB sacraments, thieves guild heists, and pickpocketing maybe. But if you've trying those on any race on a non nightblade I'd recommend Invis, Speed pots. They're in the game, use them.

The only other reason I see people complaining about this passive change is lore. In other games, Bosmer are sneaky. This isn't other games. Zos runs it, they write the lore, they decide how different races will perform and if you don't like it and want to play a game where Bosmer get stealth passives, go play that game.

Overall I think Bosmer benefited greatly from this change and am very happy with where it is.

I love how you didn't mention stealth detection anywhere:)