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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • tyggerbob
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    I agree with you, but some people want to be all in, I guess. it's all about the immersion. I heard people say they're rolling a Khajiit for the expansion.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Ogou wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Korlian wrote: »
    Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

    Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

    It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.

    They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

    Yeah I'm also not buying that theory. There is no incentive for ZOS to make people switch to a specific race when they release a new chapter. They make exactly as much money if any unpopular race suddenly becomes BiS. Besides, from the way people are always telling us "Bosmer got buffed though", stealth hardly matters to the people that switch races.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • HankTwo
    HankTwo
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    HankTwo wrote: »
    tyggerbob wrote: »
    HankTwo wrote: »
    Easy mode PvE sneak build that works on any class/race and doesn't require vampire:

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=131042

    5 pieces night mother's embrace armor, 5 pieces night's silence on bow bar, 4 pieces night terror on dw bar, swift jewelry and steed mundus for extra speed.

    Very small detection radius on dw bar and no sneak speed penalty on bow bar. Good movement speed in general and sneak cost ist basically non existent. People who claim stealthy playstyle is destroyed because of one passive have no clue how to create a build it seems.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say destroyed. And yes I have that same build.. but when you combined it with the passive, Bosmers were nearly invisible

    So what, now its just easy mode instead of super easy mode with such a build? I'm not even sure why people want to be almost invisible, where is the challenge in that? I completed both dark brotherhood and thieves guild on a heavy armor non-vampire nord (including heist and sacrament achievements). At least I had to play somewhat careful doing it this way.

    I understand that some players dislike this change, but they should stick to the facts. Stealth gameplay is manageable on any race and I don't see that ever changing in the future. Claiming otherwise is just dishonest.

    The facts are that Bosmer has been the master of stealth for 20 years. Now they are tied for worst stealth race in the game. And a lot of people rolled wood elves because they liked the tradition of stealth associated with it. Now ZOS is revising history for no apparent reason, other than to make people who prefer that playstyle switch to cats.

    If you have a better explanation, let's hear it!

    Tied for the worst stealth race is simply BS. 1st they get the biggest stam pool of all races tied with Orc, Imperial and Redguard. 2nd the 3% cost reduction of imperial is pretty much irrelevant, because with all the other (much higher) stealth cost reductions you get, sneak cost becomes minimal anyway. You get 49% reduction from 7 pieces medium, another 40% from legerdemain, up to 35% from CP and up to 77% from sets, so how is 3% relevant? It's not unlikely that in case of the build I posted the sneak cost would be exactly the same for both Bosmer and imperial because of rounding (8 on the bow bar, 5 on the dw bar).

    The second Imperial sustain passive, as well as the Redguard passive require you to deal damage, so they are not useful for a pure stealth build, while Orc doesnt has any sustain passives. The bosmer passive stam recovery on the other hand kicks in the moment you stop moving in sneak (even if its just a second). Its simply more useful for a stealth build.

    So tell me how Bosmer is tied for the worst stealh race in the game, because to me they look like the second best choice.

    The reason why ZOS did this change is also pretty obvious. They wanted to give each race unique flavor passives. Which meant that either Kahjiit or Bosmer had to lose the stealth bonus. Same thing happened to Argonian/Bosmer with the disease/poison immunity. I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • HankTwo
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    @HankTwo Said
    ",,,I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful. "

    Yea like uhhh... idk, their stealth passive back. Like what is in the Title of the thread, which is what this thread is all about. No idea why it's so difficult for some people to understand that that's all we're asking for because that's why we played bosmer because that was and always has been Their Flavor.

    I was just explaining to Jaraal why I think ZOS did this change, since he asked me, you know? And btw, the idea behind a forum is to have people with different viewpoints sharing their opinions and ideas. If you want a meeting place for bosmer players who dislike this change and nobody else create a private discord.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • Khipu
    Khipu
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    HankTwo wrote: »
    @HankTwo Said
    ",,,I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful. "

    Yea like uhhh... idk, their stealth passive back. Like what is in the Title of the thread, which is what this thread is all about. No idea why it's so difficult for some people to understand that that's all we're asking for because that's why we played bosmer because that was and always has been Their Flavor.

    I was just explaining to Jaraal why I think ZOS did this change, since he asked me, you know? And btw, the idea behind a forum is to have people with different viewpoints sharing their opinions and ideas. If you want a meeting place for bosmer players who dislike this change and nobody else create a private discord.

    "Private meeting place, only" or "you stop talking in our thread" was no where in my statement. You also could not possibly derive that from anything I said. You want to talk to Jaraal directly and not say anything that can be quoted in public. You could take your own advice, I guess. I'm just following this thread because I'm interested in it. It affects me. When I'm moved enough to type, well that means I'm moved enough to type. lol which isn't very often.


    tl;dr don't add words to my posts please, thank you
    Sejreia-Efeliel-Olympias-Emerald Ire-Asifi Kare-Skips~on~Starfire-Everbloom-Sugrahdun-Elsreia-Ceruval
    PC NA
    MMORPG:2004-2019
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty. - @Cundu_Ertur
    “Keep your face always toward the sunshine - and shadows will fall behind you.” ― Walt Whitman
  • HankTwo
    HankTwo
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    HankTwo wrote: »
    @HankTwo Said
    ",,,I personally have the opinion that this was in general a good idea, but I agree that the new Bosmer detect radius is pretty underwhelming. They should definitely get something more useful. "

    Yea like uhhh... idk, their stealth passive back. Like what is in the Title of the thread, which is what this thread is all about. No idea why it's so difficult for some people to understand that that's all we're asking for because that's why we played bosmer because that was and always has been Their Flavor.

    I was just explaining to Jaraal why I think ZOS did this change, since he asked me, you know? And btw, the idea behind a forum is to have people with different viewpoints sharing their opinions and ideas. If you want a meeting place for bosmer players who dislike this change and nobody else create a private discord.

    "Private meeting place, only" or "you stop talking in our thread" was no where in my statement. You also could not possibly derive that from anything I said. You want to talk to Jaraal directly and not say anything that can be quoted in public. You could take your own advice, I guess. I'm just following this thread because I'm interested in it. It affects me. When I'm moved enough to type, well that means I'm moved enough to type. lol which isn't very often.


    tl;dr don't add words to my posts please, thank you

    Your initial reply wasnt really constructive to begin with, implying that I have difficulties understanding the whole premise of this thread. I'm fully aware that many of the players who posted in this thread just want the old stealth passive back, that much is obvious. Doesn't change my opinion, though.
    Edited by HankTwo on March 27, 2019 5:58PM
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • Khipu
    Khipu
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    let's say; Bosmer got max majicka passive, stam gone.
    Oh, but I could just put a link to an Alcast build that would give you more stamina, what's the problem? At that point I guess I would be constructive?

    I'm not posting to change any one person's opinion, btw.
    Sejreia-Efeliel-Olympias-Emerald Ire-Asifi Kare-Skips~on~Starfire-Everbloom-Sugrahdun-Elsreia-Ceruval
    PC NA
    MMORPG:2004-2019
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty. - @Cundu_Ertur
    “Keep your face always toward the sunshine - and shadows will fall behind you.” ― Walt Whitman
  • Korlian
    Korlian
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    Korlian wrote: »
    Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)
    I did the grind, grind, grind for night mother's embrace gear in Deshaan and kept my Night Silence gear for my two stamina Bosmer, and got Night Terror jewelry from Stonefalls with Shadow Dancer gear from Greenshade and 4 bits of Magnus' Gift for my goofy hybrid. That gets them all about 2/3 of what they would have before.

    And what did you have to sacrifice? Are you still able to i.e. play solo with bow/dagger? Or are you squishy now? Powerless? Or close to the same as with the gear you had with the sneak racial we used to have?
  • HankTwo
    HankTwo
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    let's say; Bosmer got max majicka passive, stam gone.
    Oh, but I could just put a link to an Alcast build that would give you more stamina, what's the problem? At that point I guess I would be constructive?

    I'm not posting to change any one person's opinion, btw.

    Uhm, no. PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

    Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

    The reason why I posted in this thread were misconceptions like this: 'stealth gameplay as a bosmer is destroyed', or 'bosmer are now tied for worst stealth race in the game'. They are simply untrue, so I felt like debunking them.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • HankTwo
    HankTwo
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    anadandy wrote: »
    HankTwo wrote: »
    PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

    Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

    Emphasis mine.

    Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

    That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

    As I wrote in an earlier post my impression is that ZOS wanted to give each race unique flavor passives. So I don't think that particular change was because of game balance (wouldn't make sense to do this for balancing reasons, as you said).
    Edited by HankTwo on March 27, 2019 6:36PM
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • HankTwo
    HankTwo
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    anadandy wrote: »
    HankTwo wrote: »
    anadandy wrote: »
    HankTwo wrote: »
    PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

    Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

    Emphasis mine.

    Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

    That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

    As I wrote in an earlier post my impression is that ZOS wanted to give each race unique flavor passives.

    Then, imo, they failed miserably by taking a flavor passive that Bosmer have had for 20+ years and tossing it for the sake of "uniqueness" - as if Bosmer and Khajiit were not unique enough already.

    It seems to me the uniqueness problem was really only that the passive for both races was called "Stealthy" and ZOS just tossed a dart at the board and Bosmer came out the loser. The rename, plus the other changes were plenty to make the races unique without gutting the core racial identity of Bosmer.

    I wish I had your faith in ZOS' reasoning, I truly do - but the whole thing was low effort nonsense and months of feedback pointing that out were summarily ignored.

    If you ask me, Bosmer should get something like 'reduce the speed penalty of sneak by 25/50/75%'. I don't know if it would please the crowd here, but it would be something different from Khajiit while still being useful for stealth gameplay.

    Edit: or maybe a flat movement speed bonus while in sneak, so it could stack with the night's silence set or the vampire passive.
    Edited by HankTwo on March 27, 2019 6:55PM
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Korlian wrote: »
    Pretty much all the fun is gone for me since I can't play the way I want to play anymore. All attempts to play since this change has lead to frustration and quitting the game everytime I try logging in. My fun has turned to frustration, it's sad. I wish I could refund my subscription that I got just before this change happen, not having fun, at all... so a total waste of money.

    Has anyone even found a way to play stealth close to before this change? Is it even possible? (I'm not racechanging to Khajiit, ever.)

    It was a planned decision on their part to force people to convert to Khajiit to break down resistance to playing the race, in order to sell more copies of the upcoming Khajiit chapter. Unfortunately, it seems to be backfiring on them. Can't buy a new DLC if you aren't playing.

    They didn't have to that for Morrowind, they didn't have to do that for Summerset, why would they be doing that now for Elsweyr when according to ZOS themselves it has been the most requested region for a while now?

    Yeah I'm also not buying that theory. There is no incentive for ZOS to make people switch to a specific race when they release a new chapter. They make exactly as much money if any unpopular race suddenly becomes BiS. Besides, from the way people are always telling us "Bosmer got buffed though", stealth hardly matters to the people that switch races.
    This, last thing they did to Khajiit was nerfing them pretty hard by switching to crit damage.
    Who was an hard nerf outside of ganking.
    Add the standard 258 damage and 2K resources. most got.
    You do not want PvP buffs, Bosmer, Khajiit and Argonians agree.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    HankTwo wrote: »
    anadandy wrote: »
    HankTwo wrote: »
    anadandy wrote: »
    HankTwo wrote: »
    PvE stealth gameplay in this game is completely uncompetitive. Thats why as long as you can accomplish it with a reasonable difficulty its fine balancing wise (and imo stealth is very easy compared to other content in this game).

    Endgame PvE (trial leaderboards) and PvP on the other hand is competitive. Thats why balancing classes and races is very important. If stealth gameplay would be an important competitive part of the game, then the racial stealth passive of Kahjiit (and old Bosmer) would be considered OP and nerfed.

    Emphasis mine.

    Ok, then please explain how removing the stealth radius from only the Bosmer balanced anything and how returning it would unbalance anything in the competitive game. If it is completely noncompetitive and unimportant - why remove it?

    That is just one of the questions we have been waiting to have answered. There was no good reason for removing the Bosmer stealth radius and the one that was given "stealth isn't a universal mechanic" was contradictory bunk - because they replaced it with something even less universal.

    As I wrote in an earlier post my impression is that ZOS wanted to give each race unique flavor passives.

    Then, imo, they failed miserably by taking a flavor passive that Bosmer have had for 20+ years and tossing it for the sake of "uniqueness" - as if Bosmer and Khajiit were not unique enough already.

    It seems to me the uniqueness problem was really only that the passive for both races was called "Stealthy" and ZOS just tossed a dart at the board and Bosmer came out the loser. The rename, plus the other changes were plenty to make the races unique without gutting the core racial identity of Bosmer.

    I wish I had your faith in ZOS' reasoning, I truly do - but the whole thing was low effort nonsense and months of feedback pointing that out were summarily ignored.

    If you ask me, Bosmer should get something like 'reduce the speed penalty of sneak by 25/50/75%'. I don't know if it would please the crowd here, but it would be something different from Khajiit while still being useful for stealth gameplay.

    Edit: or maybe a flat movement speed bonus while in sneak, so it could stack with the night's silence set or the vampire passive.

    It would certainly please me, although sneaking faster than walking would be a bit silly and that Khajiit are generally more acrobatic than Bosmer, but at least it would acknowledge that stealth is an important part of Bosmer identity.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • DenMoria
    DenMoria
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    There's "Stealth" in ESO?

    Who knew?
  • HankTwo
    HankTwo
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    HankTwo wrote: »
    The reason why I posted in this thread were misconceptions like this: 'stealth gameplay as a bosmer is destroyed', or 'bosmer are now tied for worst stealth race in the game'. They are simply untrue, so I felt like debunking them.

    You didn't debunk anything though. You literally cannot play a Bosmer thief as anything other than average now. In PvE, both Khajiit and Imperial have advantages to stealth gameplay while Bosmer do not. This cannot be overcome by putting on sets or changing playstyles because everyone else put those same sets on (rendering Bosmer average still) and changing playstyle is the exact thing many of us are complaining about.

    Bosmer racial identity is that of a stealthy thief. Go check the lore. It's what other races think of when they think Bosmer and it's how the Bosmer think of themselves. We literally cannot play Bosmer as Bosmer anymore than can Nord can play the best magicka user in of Tamriel.

    As to being the worst stealth race, see my post right before yours. In PvP, Bosmer are literally the worst at stealth.

    Look man, base sneak cost is 133 stamina per 0.5 seconds. If you run 5 medium armor pieces with legerdemain leveled and 30% additional reduction from CP you will end up with a sneak cost of 133*0.65*0.6*0.7=36.309 at max. According to uesp the legerdemain and medium armor passives get added to each other before multiplying, so that would lead to a much lower cost of 23.275. However, since I can't confirm that right now and for the sake of the argument lets use the higher number. With the Imperial passive you would end up with a sneak cost of 36.309*0.97=35.21973.

    So, the Bosmer would have a sneak cost of 36 stamina per 0.5 second and the imperial would have a sneak cost of 35. Now, lets look at the Bosmer stam recovery of 258. You would get multiple percentage boosts to this passive, but again and for the sake of the argument, lets ingore this. For the Bosmer player to be able to sneak longer than the Imperial he would only have to stop once in 129 seconds, or a bit longer than 2 minutes. In your usual sneaky PvE you would most definitely stop more often than that, to grab loot, open treasures, pickpocket or use the blade of woe.

    In case of PvP its a bit more complicated, but apart from Nightblades sneaky gameplay doesnt really work anyway, and their stealth capabilities are entirely based on cloak.
    PC EU
    Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    anadandy wrote: »
    HankTwo wrote: »
    If you ask me, Bosmer should get something like 'reduce the speed penalty of sneak by 25/50/75%'. I don't know if it would please the crowd here, but it would be something different from Khajiit while still being useful for stealth gameplay.

    That was definitely one of the suggestions that came up in the PTS discussions (ignored). Basically anything stealth related that would have had utility in both game modes would be better than the crap we got. But here we are, months later, still being ignored, still not having the fact that Stealth Detection is utterly useless in PVE acknowledged and, speaking only for myself, now I'm just over it - gimme my stealth radius back.

    Nope, speaking for me, too. Stealth is the only stealth that matters.

    And I've already provided a proposal how it could be done without replicating the mechanic that Khajiit have. The Khajiit get a stealth bonus like from a set, give Bosmer a stealth bonus like the medium armor line at 15/30/40% to replace the counter-productive detection nerf. The rest of the passive could even stay the same, whatever.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Blinkin8r
    Blinkin8r
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    I wanted to get in some playtime on my Bosmer Stamblade before commenting here. This has been my main toon for years and I was definitely nervous when I saw they were changing their passives.
    Pre Wrathstone: My Bosmer Stamblade cleared all Craglorn HM's, VAS, VMOL, VHOF, and achieved Flawless Conqueror, and was a solid player in Cyrodiil.
    Since Wrathstone: I've done all of those things and I'm still loving it in Cyrodiil. The extra penetration and speed after roll dodge is pretty niche but I'm loving it. For end game content at least, Bosmer is in a better place than it was before.

    Now if you're on a Bosmer that isn't a nightblade, you may have slightly more difficulty than before doing DB sacraments, thieves guild heists, and pickpocketing maybe. But if you've trying those on any race on a non nightblade I'd recommend Invis, Speed pots. They're in the game, use them.

    The only other reason I see people complaining about this passive change is lore. In other games, Bosmer are sneaky. This isn't other games. Zos runs it, they write the lore, they decide how different races will perform and if you don't like it and want to play a game where Bosmer get stealth passives, go play that game.

    Overall I think Bosmer benefited greatly from this change and am very happy with where it is.
    II Blinkin II
    Xbox 1 NA
    "A man without the sauce is lost, but the same man can become lost in the sauce."
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