Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Arato

Tigerseye wrote: »

So, I play a Bosmer Warden and I haven't really noticed any difference when I steal.

I can't speak for stealth (or stealth detection) in PVP, but in PVE the changes don't really seem to have made a noticable difference.

Try doing heists or sacraments where you're actually timed and it matters whether you get detected or not. Try to get all objectives.

Jaraal

Sylvermynx wrote: »

So.... the thought that comes to my mind is that the devs have done this whole stupid "*** on the lore" thing because they don't want TG and DB to give so many tickets that the next event or so won't be bothered with.

You know, that hadn't even occurred to me, but now that you mention it..... they did say that event tickets would be available for purchase in the crown store. Perhaps this upcoming event will be the one? That would be a terrible coincidence. Please tell me it's not planned that way!

Arato wrote: »

Try doing heists or sacraments where you're actually timed and it matters whether you get detected or not. Try to get all objectives.

Exactly. They are hard enough to do perfectly with a maxed out stealth character, let alone one gimped because his stealth bonus was removed.

Sylvermynx

Jaraal wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

So.... the thought that comes to my mind is that the devs have done this whole stupid "*** on the lore" thing because they don't want TG and DB to give so many tickets that the next event or so won't be bothered with.

You know, that hadn't even occurred to me, but now that you mention it..... they did say that event tickets would be available for purchase in the crown store. Perhaps this upcoming event will be the one? That would be a terrible coincidence. Please tell me it's not planned that way!

Well.... I hope I didn't in this case hit that nail dead center. But... I have some real issues with the way this is playing out....

wedgebert

Arato wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

Useless, set bonuses from gear, vampirism passives, and a nightblade skill all outstrip that, meanwhile the racial stealth bonus is stronger than any set bonus, to give you a comparison for power.

Now if you made the bonus +30% speed in stealth, it'd be slightly faster than default move speed so slightly better than night's silence or other means of ignoring stealth's movement speed penalty, that would be comparable to -3 detect radius from the racial vs -2 detect radius from sets. I'd still rather have -3 stealth detect radius, but at least then it'd be somewhat comparable in power. Khajiit would still hide better, Bosmer would just be the fastest race in stealth.

I would be against this, mainly because I don't think you should ever be able to sneak faster than the default walk speed.

BlueRaven

I think I lucked out in a way. I wanted my Bosmer to be a "hero", so I did the thieves/assassins guild quests on my Kahjit.

Sylvermynx

BlueRaven wrote: »

I think I lucked out in a way. I wanted my Bosmer to be a "hero", so I did the thieves/assassins guild quests on my Kahjit.

Probably a REALLY good job then!

Jaraal

wedgebert wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

Useless, set bonuses from gear, vampirism passives, and a nightblade skill all outstrip that, meanwhile the racial stealth bonus is stronger than any set bonus, to give you a comparison for power.

Now if you made the bonus +30% speed in stealth, it'd be slightly faster than default move speed so slightly better than night's silence or other means of ignoring stealth's movement speed penalty, that would be comparable to -3 detect radius from the racial vs -2 detect radius from sets. I'd still rather have -3 stealth detect radius, but at least then it'd be somewhat comparable in power. Khajiit would still hide better, Bosmer would just be the fastest race in stealth.

I would be against this, mainly because I don't think you should ever be able to sneak faster than the default walk speed.

My thieves all sneak faster than they run, (including the gimped Bosmer), with 5 pc Night's Silence (all armor in Divines), Steed Mundus (increased to 10% with Murkmire), Concealed Weapon slotted (+25% to sneak speed), 3pcs of Swift jewelry, and Windrunning CP passive. Stage 4 vampire Dark Stalker passive also removes the sneak speed penalty, just like the Night's Silence set.

They are all at the movement cap, so adding speed to a racial passive is pointless.

Tigerseye

Arato wrote: »

Tigerseye wrote: »

So, I play a Bosmer Warden and I haven't really noticed any difference when I steal.

I can't speak for stealth (or stealth detection) in PVP, but in PVE the changes don't really seem to have made a noticable difference.

Try doing heists or sacraments where you're actually timed and it matters whether you get detected or not. Try to get all objectives.

Oh, OK - well, I gave up doing those ages ago, anyway.

By the time I stopped, I could normally do them all within the time (without any special gear,) but I found it so annoying when I didn't, that it didn't seem worth the stress.

But, yeah, I can imagine that if you enjoy doing them that it must be a loss.

I will also add that I am seeing even fewer Bosmer players than usual, since the change.

So any notion they may have had of more racial "balance" seems to have failed, so far.

Tigerseye

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Aela_Dragonrider
I understand that and have stated on many occasions that I wouldn't mind it being given back. I'm actually good either way, whether it comes back or not. If it doesn't I'd like to see detection radius at least increased to the same as magelight and any bugs with it ironed out.

However, when you say "we" I imagine that you are referring to just those players who are here and who have stated that they want it back. When you say, "we dont NEED" I have to assume that as some of us who pvp (my personal sample size is limited) don't find it useless, just not where it should be. I only bring this up as we have no idea what the consensus is or anyway to accurately extrapolate it. I appreciate the well=meaning efforts of those like @Ratzkifal in attempting what they are doing.

I think the issue is that most racial abilities (i.e. set abilities you can't select, or change) are not only of any use in PVP.

A lot of people simply don't PVP, at all.

Making an entire race into something that is perceived as only being any good for PVP is a huge mistake.

So, either they need to add a lot of new ways in which stealth detection is really useful in PVE (and not ust in one, or two areas/instances - in them all), or they need to change the racial passive back and/or into something more universally useful.

Tigerseye

max_only wrote: »

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

Vote with your wallet - otherwise they ignore you

I think it was Rich Lambert who said “You know you don’t have to be here” in response to criticism. Somehow I think they’d rather feel “right” than acquiesce to “customers”. I found the quote. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3160562/#Comment_3160562

That is a pretty ignorant thing to say.

He's just showing he doesn't have a very high IQ - emotionally speaking, at least.

People are "here" because they like the game, as a whole, but find it has certain ongoing issues that need attention.

Telling them they should leave if they don't like that is remarkably crass.

It's what you would expect from a player troll; not a dev.

Beardimus

I understand peoples frustrations. For me its simple, i have one main, and he's staying put.

I have a bosmer thief Alt tho rolled for fun for TG. And this would have annoyed me, but we get the free changes. So its ok, he's a WW too so Nord gunna be fun, and I'm glad to have Pact toons

I guess if you really care about the toon you ignore min max.
If you don't you switch.

Done

Tigerseye

Beardimus wrote: »

I understand peoples frustrations. For me its simple, i have one main, and he's staying put.

I have a bosmer thief Alt tho rolled for fun for TG. And this would have annoyed me, but we get the free changes. So its ok, he's a WW too so Nord gunna be fun, and I'm glad to have Pact toons

I guess if you really care about the toon you ignore min max.
If you don't you switch.

Done

No, not "done", at all.

Shouldn't be forced to choose between your character's continuing existence and being effective in PVE.

Especially if you originally made your char to be a certain thing, based on the original racials and now find it doesn't work for that anymore (or, for anything else, apart from maybe PVP...).

Instead of playing around like this, in the supposed name of "racial balance" and failing miserably, they should have just scrapped set racials, altogether and let people pick and choose.

That's if they really cared about racial balance, of course.

Korlian

I'm a bosmer / wood elf main with nearly 900 hours on that character alone. I mostly solo PvE, and sneak is vital to my playstyle. I used to be able to sneak in delves, thieves guild quests, dark brotherhood quests, stealing, exploring and questing in general, avoiding most of the combat in general. I'm not having fun anymore, period. For me, this "small" change is turning my playstyle completely upside down, from 100% stealth, to having to fight everything. No way I'll race change to a khajiit to get my playstyle back (I can't stand tails, sorry, and I want to be a bosmer), I'm attached to my character after all these years and want to keep it, but I'm not having fun playing anymore and it's making me not log in when I want to play. This change is also incredibly unlorefriendly despite zos claiming the oposite, I don't understand that at all.

Please reconsider changing this bit back to what it was.

justinbarrett

Still no official response on this? It's clear that the changes were wrong at this point....I've docked my bosmer toons since the change....waiting for a lgitimate response from ZoS before I use those race change tokens.

At this point I am questioning a lot of the race change passives.

A_Silverius

justinbarrett wrote: »

I've docked my bosmer toons since the change....

Same.. Sounds kinda petty, but this "small" change has got me and my Bosmer pretty bummed. I've always played as a sneak thief in Elder Scrolls as well as in other games, losing our stealth literally took the fun right out of ESO for me.

Tasear

max_only wrote: »

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

Vote with your wallet - otherwise they ignore you

I think it was Rich Lambert who said “You know you don’t have to be here” in response to criticism. Somehow I think they’d rather feel “right” than acquiesce to “customers”. I found the quote. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3160562/#Comment_3160562

Besides they are counting on bringing in a bunch of Khajiit players to make up for anything lost. Cats appeal to the internet meme community (3rd person speech is basically Can Haz Cheezeburger), to people who don’t care about Elder Scrolls but like cats, to people who identify as furry/anthro, etc. They’re planning on raking it in with the flash in the pan gaming community. Those are also the people who are most likely to splurge on cosmetics to make their kitten unique.

That quote was taken out of context and reused in many places.

BlueRaven

I am interested to see if there is a patch today and that the detect invisible target bug/feature survives.

Kelces

I agree. It always seems weird to me now, thinking of a Bosmer as being more effectve in being a guard, than escaping one...

Hand_Bacon

I'm not saying anyone should accept something they don't like, but I do truly hope people who have grown to enjoy the characters they've created find a way to continue with them despite this change. It may feel like its all over for that character right now, but its not over, who knows what the future might bring.

For now, maybe your character is on a new life mission or something.

Cundu_Ertur

BlueRaven wrote: »

I am interested to see if there is a patch today and that the detect invisible target bug/feature survives.

Not mentioned. The deafening silence continues.

BlueRaven

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I am interested to see if there is a patch today and that the detect invisible target bug/feature survives.

Not mentioned. The deafening silence continues.

Argh! You beat me to it!

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461982/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-6#latest

A_Silverius

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

I'm not saying anyone should accept something they don't like, but I do truly hope people who have grown to enjoy the characters they've created find a way to continue with them despite this change. It may feel like its all over for that character right now, but its not over, who knows what the future might bring.

For now, maybe your character is on a new life mission or something.

No thanks, I'll take back my stealth thank you very much. A Bosmer without stealth is a Bosmer doom to be a Guard with an arrow in its knee.

BlueRaven

A_Silverius wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

I'm not saying anyone should accept something they don't like, but I do truly hope people who have grown to enjoy the characters they've created find a way to continue with them despite this change. It may feel like its all over for that character right now, but its not over, who knows what the future might bring.

For now, maybe your character is on a new life mission or something.

No thanks, I'll take back my stealth thank you very much. A Bosmer without stealth is a Bosmer doom to be a Guard with an arrow in its knee.

We were adventurers once, then ZoS put an arrow in our knees.

Hand_Bacon

A_Silverius wrote: »

No thanks, I'll take back my stealth thank you very much. A Bosmer without stealth is a Bosmer doom to be a Guard with an arrow in its knee.

Okay...

Until then, I guess...happy misery?

A_Silverius

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

No thanks, I'll take back my stealth thank you very much. A Bosmer without stealth is a Bosmer doom to be a Guard with an arrow in its knee.

Okay...

Until then, I guess...happy misery?

Until then, we give feedback until its fixed that's what.

KMarble

Jaraal wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

So.... the thought that comes to my mind is that the devs have done this whole stupid "*** on the lore" thing because they don't want TG and DB to give so many tickets that the next event or so won't be bothered with.

You know, that hadn't even occurred to me, but now that you mention it..... they did say that event tickets would be available for purchase in the crown store. Perhaps this upcoming event will be the one? That would be a terrible coincidence. Please tell me it's not planned that way!

Arato wrote: »

Try doing heists or sacraments where you're actually timed and it matters whether you get detected or not. Try to get all objectives.

Exactly. They are hard enough to do perfectly with a maxed out stealth character, let alone one gimped because his stealth bonus was removed.

It is not planned that way.
- Khajiits still have sneaking abilities, and this went live before the DB event.
- Not only that but we were given - free of charge - 3 race change tokens. If one values the event tickets that much, one could change races before the event and have enough tokens left to change back to a wood elf after the event is over.
- we don't know yet which activities grant event tickets. There was talk about it being heists and sacraments, but I also saw posts reminding people that in the past, doing other activities also worked for this event.
- Even IF the only activities that grant tickets are heists and sacraments, turning in the quest will probably grant you the proper amount of tickets, just like turning in one of those even though we ran out of time still grants a reward and the completion of the quest.
- I've participated in every single event since the event tickets were introduced. I have yet to fail at getting a ticket due to being unable to complete the content because it was too hard. In every single event so far, there were activities that would suit every level player out there.

One last thing, regarding devs being unwilling to give away too many event tickets. I have one nascent Indrik, enough feathers for a second one and all the berry fragments issued so far. For at least the last two events I was able to get the berry before I did the first activity of the first day.
I went through most of the Morrowind celebration "wasting" my tickets so to speak, because I reached 12 and couldn't acquire more. The last event alone gave enough tickets to either buy two of the items from the Empresario (and have 4, IIRC, tickets left) or buy one item and have enough to skip the next event.

Arato

wedgebert wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

Useless, set bonuses from gear, vampirism passives, and a nightblade skill all outstrip that, meanwhile the racial stealth bonus is stronger than any set bonus, to give you a comparison for power.

Now if you made the bonus +30% speed in stealth, it'd be slightly faster than default move speed so slightly better than night's silence or other means of ignoring stealth's movement speed penalty, that would be comparable to -3 detect radius from the racial vs -2 detect radius from sets. I'd still rather have -3 stealth detect radius, but at least then it'd be somewhat comparable in power. Khajiit would still hide better, Bosmer would just be the fastest race in stealth.

I would be against this, mainly because I don't think you should ever be able to sneak faster than the default walk speed.

Well the idea is that the racial stealth bonus is more powerful than a 3 or 5 piece set bonus, so you shouldn't replace it with a bonus that is LESS than that.

wedgebert

Arato wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

Useless, set bonuses from gear, vampirism passives, and a nightblade skill all outstrip that, meanwhile the racial stealth bonus is stronger than any set bonus, to give you a comparison for power.

Now if you made the bonus +30% speed in stealth, it'd be slightly faster than default move speed so slightly better than night's silence or other means of ignoring stealth's movement speed penalty, that would be comparable to -3 detect radius from the racial vs -2 detect radius from sets. I'd still rather have -3 stealth detect radius, but at least then it'd be somewhat comparable in power. Khajiit would still hide better, Bosmer would just be the fastest race in stealth.

I would be against this, mainly because I don't think you should ever be able to sneak faster than the default walk speed.

Well the idea is that the racial stealth bonus is more powerful than a 3 or 5 piece set bonus, so you shouldn't replace it with a bonus that is LESS than that.

I know. My resistance to that as a bonus stems from I don't think anything should let you sneak faster than you can walk.

Arato

wedgebert wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

What about adding 10% movement speed in stealth instead of penetration?

Useless, set bonuses from gear, vampirism passives, and a nightblade skill all outstrip that, meanwhile the racial stealth bonus is stronger than any set bonus, to give you a comparison for power.

Now if you made the bonus +30% speed in stealth, it'd be slightly faster than default move speed so slightly better than night's silence or other means of ignoring stealth's movement speed penalty, that would be comparable to -3 detect radius from the racial vs -2 detect radius from sets. I'd still rather have -3 stealth detect radius, but at least then it'd be somewhat comparable in power. Khajiit would still hide better, Bosmer would just be the fastest race in stealth.

I would be against this, mainly because I don't think you should ever be able to sneak faster than the default walk speed.

Well the idea is that the racial stealth bonus is more powerful than a 3 or 5 piece set bonus, so you shouldn't replace it with a bonus that is LESS than that.

I know. My resistance to that as a bonus stems from I don't think anything should let you sneak faster than you can walk.

Well technically magblades can using concealed weapon and cloak, so they're actually faster while invisible than they are while visible, but that's invisibility rather than stealth, and It may be possible if that same magblade wears shadow dancer set which ignores movement speed penalty while stealthed and has concealed weapon slotted that they move faster while sneaking than they do normally, at least in theory my magblade isn't high enough to actually test it and see if they stack that way or not. but they could because the set "ignores movement speed penalty" while concealed weapon "increases movement speed while sneaking or invisible by 25%"

max_only

Koronach wrote: »

If it comes down to lore I doubt they will do anything about it. They seem to throw lore to the side when making changes, I mean.

Koronach wrote: »

I’m guessing many of you will be interested to know more about the racial balance changes. While we aren’t ready to share specific details yet, here’s a peek at the goals driving the team’s effort:

When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role. The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized. Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up. The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.

That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.

Sorry none of those are even close to true for Argonians. Also how is removing Argonian poison resistance staying faithful to established lore?



It's all over the actual in game lore from quest NPC's. Let's see we have the Bleakrock spider quest, Eastmarch Daril quest, Green-Venom-Tongue Shadowscale stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green, Jee-Lar mentioning it in that poison sniffer lizard quest, and prob others I'm forgetting.
@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_Gilliam care to elaborate on this epic lore fail?

That's about as lore breaking as you can get, saying a race is resistant to something in game and removing it from them.

“But you can wear glyphs if you want to role play as poison resistant.” Is what forum dwellers would say if you pointed this out to them.

I agree and as I’ve said, they should have given stealth radius reduction to more races, Argonian and Dunmer need it too.

Tasear wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Marcus_Thracius wrote: »

Vote with your wallet - otherwise they ignore you

I think it was Rich Lambert who said “You know you don’t have to be here” in response to criticism. Somehow I think they’d rather feel “right” than acquiesce to “customers”. I found the quote. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3160562/#Comment_3160562

Besides they are counting on bringing in a bunch of Khajiit players to make up for anything lost. Cats appeal to the internet meme community (3rd person speech is basically Can Haz Cheezeburger), to people who don’t care about Elder Scrolls but like cats, to people who identify as furry/anthro, etc. They’re planning on raking it in with the flash in the pan gaming community. Those are also the people who are most likely to splurge on cosmetics to make their kitten unique.

That quote was taken out of context and reused in many places.

I provided the original context. The original quote was in response to a player saying “when are you going to fix your busted game”. As cheeky and insulting as that question was, there are plenty of alternative ways to respond that are wiser.

Anyway it doesn’t matter. If I was in charge of a video game I’d do whatever I like with few exceptions. one exception happens to be leaving things that have been established for over 20 years and have been established for 5 years in the specific game I run.

That’s just me though. I know it’s not everyone.