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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • Hand_Bacon
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    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    This really makes me wonder if YOU have even tried the thing you are arguing so vehemently for.

    First, I haven't been arguing vehemently for it. I've been arguing its non wholesale departure from the stealthy little Bosmer lore. I HAVE however stated that I'm not ready PERSONALLY to give it up just yet.

    Second, I have tried it, of course. Although I do appreciate the insinuation that somehow I am disingenuous. In point of fact, so far, I find it underwhelming, but like I said, I'm not ready to give up on it.

  • Ratzkifal
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    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I'll give you that Bosmer are good at avoidance since that is part of agility and that Bosmer are agile, but I think the stamina boosts and dodgeroll already cover that agility enough.
    Stealth is not agility though and stealth is not avoidance (in the sense that stealth is only a subset of it). If there is a precedent for Bosmer being good at stealth (which there is) then giving them a bonus to only "avoidance" won't do them justice!
    And your example doesn't help you either, because of the way stealth works in ESO. If both people are stealthed, then the person without the greater detection will see their eye indicator go from "hidden" to "danger" before that of the enemy with the greater detection, warning them of their presence and giving away that they are about to be detected while the enemy that is better at detecting is completely unaware. The information game is clearly on the side of the one with the lesser detection, making them better at hiding. The rest is up to chance and what the player does with the information at hand, but that is already outside of the realm of racial passives.

    You bring up some good points I'll have to chew on for a bit. Would you call it agility or dexterity?

    I would call it agility, but keep in mind that nuance may be lost in translation as English is my second language and both words give the same (bunch of) translations in my dictionary.

    I'd interpret these things as follows.

    Agility - the ability to move with ease and precision
    • Avoidance - the ability to avoid hostilities and potentially dangerous situations
      1. Stealth - the ability to remain unseen and undetected
    And that last one is where Bosmer are specialized in comparison to, say, Redguards, who are agile too and should have comparable avoidance, but theirs is expressed in althetics rather than acrobatics and stealth.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Hand_Bacon
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    max_only wrote: »
    1. Is the majority of content produced by Zos pvp?
    2. Do you use stealth detect in pve?

    The Socratic method can’t get any simpler.

    I applaud your attempt at the Socratic method but your questions are narrowed to a scope where the outcome can only come out in one way not by merit.

    I will, however, entertain your 2nd point. I mentioned long ago, that maybe...just maybe, this is part of something yet to come where it could prove its worth. Its far fetched insofar as we don't know, but it could be a possibility.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Gibgarde wrote: »
    On one hand, all of this fighting might get ZOS to look at this thread again to read our feedback

    On the other hand, all of this fighting might get this thread locked since we've already been warned once, ontop of the fact that we've gone from constructive feedback to arguing if stealth detect is useful at all. (Hint: It's not. It's really, really not)

    Maybe calm down, so we can keep our argument civil so that ZOS might take us seriously.

    You are very right. However on page 18 it is getting difficult to come up with things that have not already been said. What we can do and haven't done yet is start collecting our arguments in a simple and easy to grasp (rant free) format that we can then hand people like the reps and the devs.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • BlueRaven
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    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    A security guard at a museum does not nearly have the same skill sets as the cat (lol) burglar attempting to steal the paintings.

    Your laughable claims of "It takes a thief to catch one" would have a lot more weight if Bosmers had ANY skill that would help them be thieves. Hint: They do not.

    The problem is that they were cat burglars and now they are museum guards.

    The fact that you STILL think that they are equivalent at this point is just bizarre.

    You went to the museum to get this crappy analogy? lol I'm sorry but you're taking the scenic route to avoid substance.

    They do have skill at avoidance, just as much as anyone else outside of Khajiits.

    The fact you can't see deeper than this is just bizarre.


    EDIT: besides, aren't you the one playing? have you no skill? And its not my claim, its a 17th century saying.


    Outside of Kahjits and Imperials you mean.

    Bosmers have legendary stealth skills and that means they stealth the same as nords or orcs to you? Nice reasoning!!!! lol L2Lore (And its not my claim, its a 20th century saying.)
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    Avoidance isn't stealth. Not being seen is stealth. Stealth is when you are close enough to someone where they should be able to see you but they can't. Detection without stealth is a guard's skill. Detection + stealth is a scout's skill.

    Avoidance is the buff you want back. Avoidance is stealth.
    "the act or action of proceeding furtively, secretly, or imperceptibly"
    here are some synonyms: clandestine, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious, undercover
    Avoidance? "an act or practice of avoiding"

    Detection is part of that stealth game. To say it isn't would only take into account a static world of NPC guards. We're talking pvp here where the world is dynamic and stealth depends on detection and avoidance.



    No, avoidance isn't the buff I want back, I want "clandestine, sneak, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, surreptitious, undercover" back. Avoidance isn't a synonym for stealth, stealth isn't a synonym for avoidance. They are different concepts.

    Pop quiz time, who was it who said:
    When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean——neither more nor less.

    I wonder how that could be relevant.

    Anyways, the situation you have been describing is ONLY relevant when both parties are in stealth. However that is NEVER the case outside of Cyrodiil, and very seldom the case even there so far as my own limited experience has shown. Counter-stealth provides an advantage only when the enemy is also in stealth (not invisible and not in cloak, either). Stealth provides an advantage regardless of whether the enemy is in stealth, invisible, under cloak, or none of those. Two different outcomes, because they are two different things.

    And "we're" not talking about Cyrodiil here. I'm talking about the whole game, not just Cyrodiil.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Hand_Bacon
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Bosmers have legendary stealth skills and that means they stealth the same as nords or orcs to you? Nice reasoning!!!! lol L2Lore (And its not my claim, its a 20th century saying.)

    You mean aside from the stealth buff in the form of stealth detection? Your claim and the saying are 2 different things. You are making a claim by using that..."saying". Isn't that more of a 21st century vernacular?
  • Hand_Bacon
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Since you entertain point 2, consider the following as well. The proposed sorc shield change in Murkmire was defended by the devs with the same argument "we have something coming for them and will buff sorc damage as compensation at a later date". But the community felt that it was not the right move by the developers to break something here and now and leave it broken for half a year until the redeeming change would arrive. The outrage and reps convinced ZOS that it wasn't time for the change and they delayed it until the day they are ready to roll out the compensation along with it.
    Similarly I think it was not a good call from ZOS to remove stealth from Bosmer for at least a quarter of a year without a redeeming change. While this is not nearly as game breaking as the shield change was, it is the same principle at work that the community has already rejected. I also doubt that introducing stealth boni outside of the racial passives to make up for it, addresses the issue many of us have, but that is speculation for now.

    I can see that as an apt comparison. I think I mentioned somewhere something similar to the effect that if it was for something yet coming I find it interesting that they'd do it now before the applicable content. The only reason, if any of this speculation is true, is that they wanted this patch/update to cover all foreseeable racial restructuring.

    EDIT: @Ratzkifal Off to bed, the wife and kids are even less forgiving then these forums are to opposing viewpoints. I'll be interested to read anymore you have to write when I catch up in the morning.
    Edited by Hand_Bacon on March 1, 2019 1:55AM
  • Aela_Dragonrider
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Gibgarde wrote: »
    On one hand, all of this fighting might get ZOS to look at this thread again to read our feedback

    On the other hand, all of this fighting might get this thread locked since we've already been warned once, ontop of the fact that we've gone from constructive feedback to arguing if stealth detect is useful at all. (Hint: It's not. It's really, really not)

    Maybe calm down, so we can keep our argument civil so that ZOS might take us seriously.

    You are very right. However on page 18 it is getting difficult to come up with things that have not already been said. What we can do and haven't done yet is start collecting our arguments in a simple and easy to grasp (rant free) format that we can then hand people like the reps and the devs.

    I second your suggestion. It would be helpful to clarify our grievances.
  • BlueRaven
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    Just a FYI: For those you you doing VAA (or even AA I would assume) the center group adds will have a much longer stealth detection that you are used to. Be careful.
  • BlueRaven
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    max_only wrote: »
    What ifs
    In the future maybe

    That’s the only defense to the simple question I posed.

    If one has to change the entirety of the universe and space time to validate your side, then you’re doing it wrong.

    “What if enemies in pve stealthed/crouched?” Well they don’t. Full stop.

    “In the future there maybe be a reason for detect stealth in pve.” Then change it in the future, now as we are today, detect stealth has no benefit. They want to sell a game today. Today the game does not have stealth enemies in pve. Today.

    Yeah, like they are going to go back and redo all the zones to make stealth detection relevant too. lol
  • BlueRaven
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    I am hoping at the Pax East event they have the "fix" they claimed was coming. I am definitely going, it's just a matter of what day.

    Basically I can spend $200 on a train ticket that will get me there and back on the same day. Or I can drive and spend the night before and after at my relatives house that is roughly 1/2 way there.

    So I am trying to figure out what I am going to do. (And on what day.)

    Maybe I will go on the first day? And if I missed something I will spend an extra day up there? hmmm
  • Sylvermynx
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I am hoping at the Pax East event they have the "fix" they claimed was coming. I am definitely going, it's just a matter of what day.

    Basically I can spend $200 on a train ticket that will get me there and back on the same day. Or I can drive and spend the night before and after at my relatives house that is roughly 1/2 way there.

    So I am trying to figure out what I am going to do. (And on what day.)

    Maybe I will go on the first day? And if I missed something I will spend an extra day up there? hmmm

    Blue, do whatever is safest considering the weather.... Please, be safe.
  • BlueRaven
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I am hoping at the Pax East event they have the "fix" they claimed was coming. I am definitely going, it's just a matter of what day.

    Basically I can spend $200 on a train ticket that will get me there and back on the same day. Or I can drive and spend the night before and after at my relatives house that is roughly 1/2 way there.

    So I am trying to figure out what I am going to do. (And on what day.)

    Maybe I will go on the first day? And if I missed something I will spend an extra day up there? hmmm

    Blue, do whatever is safest considering the weather.... Please, be safe.

    Thanks! <3

    Yeah that is why I don't want to drive, I have been to boston a few times, but each time I used mass transit. This is the first time I would be driving and the friday is a weekday, so extra crowded.

    Then again $200 for a few hours? hmmm
This discussion has been closed.