StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Sorc has very good mobility. Way better that DK or templar.
Sorc has double executes, active and passive.
Sorc will still have one more solid shield compared to some other classes, shield that also help its pets.
I dont see why boundless storm is such a big deal for Derra to point that out as some major flaw.
I mean, it last 23 seconds, its not like spammable where 200-300 cost reduction would be major thing.
Its radius is realistic for a class like sorcerer. Why would you want more than 5 meters anyways?
As I said, what playstyle you need more than 5 meter for?

1) People vastly overestimate the usefulness of Bolt Escape, especially when fighting someone competent (as opposed to a scrub who doesn't instantly close the gap)
2) Implosion is an extremely low proc chance and an extremely low health threshold. It could be removed and nobody would notice much of a difference in getting kills. If you run the active execute, then the passive one is nullified anyway.
3) Melee range on classes is being upped to ~7m generally, isn't it? Something like that. So, presumably we need more range on our melee stuff for the same reason others need more range on their melee stuff. It's a skill that does damage when the sorc is in the one place they DON'T want to be - in melee range. Rather odd, isn't it.

Uppercut barely hit anyone that is not either being zerged down and immobilized or complete newcomer.
Implosion has solid proc chance, as seen from BGs where it proc a lot.
15% health might seem low but paired with other skill sorc use that are pretty much all based on lightning, it has great synergy with class.

if someone suggested revision of rebate as outdated passive, Id understand that.
if someone asked for stun back on frags, Id understand that.
but focusing on boundless as one of main issues is really [snip] moment for me.

Because our shields are now less effective, so as Sorcs we are looking at what our other defensive options are. The obvious option is Lightning Form since it grants a resistance bonus. Most mag sorcs just don't bother using it really because the damage portion is essentially negligible since it's really just a tickle, only there to proc stuff such as Implosion (which you hate, and we hate too) and Surge. The speed bonus is nice but if you want to keep it up you need to speed 3400 magicka (with passives). Most of us don't find it worth while. We are not asking for it to be a super cheap, huge range, massive damage aoe dot like you seem to think we are.

I would rather it lose the damage and provide some other boon instead. Leave Hurricane as the damaging morph.

[edited to remove quote]

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ZOS are dropping the ball again. It's the same principle as always: community discusses and works out solutions for ZOS, and they go ahead and do something completely different. Just so it's not community-made.

@Joy_Division , this is what I meant when I asked you to pressure ZOS to work harder WITH the community. Yes, getting the cast time removed is a huge success, but we're at square one again with ZOS spitting out random ideas. THIS is what has to change, it's a fundamental work progress flaw.

Regarding HP cap, 40% is absurd, it should be 50% or 60%. It should not take emperor bonus into account, that would be extremely imbalanced. And if ZOS thought it through, they would have re-designed the sorc HP passive to require having a summoning ability slotted for that. That passive is useless in Cyro, compare that to the awesome Dark Vigor passive, which will benefit shields.

A sorcerer with 24K HP and 40K magicka won't notice any difference with harness or hardened.

• Harness would start at 14,000. (40k Magicka * 0.35 coefficient)
• The shield would be halved by Battle Spirit to 7000.
• The shield would be unaffected by the health-based cap, because 7000 < 9,600. (9,600 = 40% of 24k hp)
• Same thing with Hardened, it would start at 19,200 ( 40k Magicka *0,48 coefficient)
• Then halved by battle spirit to 9600.
• And unaffected by the health based cap ( 40% of 24K hp = 9600)

Now I will take my sorc as an example, 20K5 HP and 41K magicka.

1. Health based cap = 8200
2. Hardened = (0,48*41000)/2 = 9840, affected by the health based cap.
3. Harness = (0,35*41000)/2 =7175, unaffected by the health based cap.

When you have too much magicka ( or not enough health ) hardened is above the health based cap and harness is unaffected, it reduce the slight gap between both shield ... Which is sad cause hardened is a class shield and should be superior to harness, Hardened cost 2900 magicka and harness cost 3900 but restore up to 4200 magicka ... The sustain is already better with harness, let's not reduce the gap between both shield strength.
Now some are probably like " Who care, sorc use both shields anyway, no need to choose " but keep in mind we don't shield stack in PVE, let's make the same calculation on a non-pet sorc in PVE.

16.124HP and 43 431 magicka.

1. health based cap = 6449
2. Hardened = (0,48*43431)= 20 846, affected by the health based cap = 6449.
3. Harness = (0,38*43431)/2= 15 200, affected by the health based cap = 6449.

Tell me how the choice is even interesting between both ? there is a 1K magicka cost difference between both, and harness restore up to 4200 magicka when you fight boss/mobs that deal magic/elemental damage.

The change is far better than a cast-time, but they could add some slight changes, 60% health based cap for conjured ward and morphs is one of them ( keep it 40% for harness).

The 10% increased strenght on Harneded ward isn't gonna be interesting, since we have low health and high magicka in PVE, I wonder how they plan to balance both morphs.

Not everything can be balanced between pvp and pve thats the real issuse. Need pvp morph and pve morph.

Okokok

I have mained Sorc forever. My favorite Magicka class and stamina class.

Stamina Sorcerer is supposed to be all about the weapon line and I get it. But please bie that a Stan morph of the ultimates are possibly going through.

Air atronach makes sense in the AOE morph for sure. It is definitely fitting and would be nice in PVE. No doubt. But it would not be used in PvP. It would not change anything for us. We would still be lacking identity.

Stamina Overload however, especially with the new direction overload is being taken. Just makes sense. It gives sta Sorc an identity. If it's nade to return Stam on hit like the mag one it gives sustain through ultimate as seems to be the desire. It gives many new builds and ideas and just a refresh to the class in PvP. And help in the area if ssustain and monotonous rotation in PVE. And if it's strong enough take away from the over reliance on bow ultimate. It truly would be a fantastic change.

Now I believe both should go down. Air atronach and overload. Both make sense. But if it us only one please highly consider overload!

@ZOS_Wrobel

Apherius wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

ZOS are dropping the ball again. It's the same principle as always: community discusses and works out solutions for ZOS, and they go ahead and do something completely different. Just so it's not community-made.

@Joy_Division , this is what I meant when I asked you to pressure ZOS to work harder WITH the community. Yes, getting the cast time removed is a huge success, but we're at square one again with ZOS spitting out random ideas. THIS is what has to change, it's a fundamental work progress flaw.

Regarding HP cap, 40% is absurd, it should be 50% or 60%. It should not take emperor bonus into account, that would be extremely imbalanced. And if ZOS thought it through, they would have re-designed the sorc HP passive to require having a summoning ability slotted for that. That passive is useless in Cyro, compare that to the awesome Dark Vigor passive, which will benefit shields.

A sorcerer with 24K HP and 40K magicka won't notice any difference with harness or hardened.

• Harness would start at 14,000. (40k Magicka * 0.35 coefficient)
• The shield would be halved by Battle Spirit to 7000.
• The shield would be unaffected by the health-based cap, because 7000 < 9,600. (9,600 = 40% of 24k hp)
• Same thing with Hardened, it would start at 19,200 ( 40k Magicka *0,48 coefficient)
• Then halved by battle spirit to 9600.
• And unaffected by the health based cap ( 40% of 24K hp = 9600)

Now I will take my sorc as an example, 20K5 HP and 41K magicka.

1. Health based cap = 8200
2. Hardened = (0,48*41000)/2 = 9840, affected by the health based cap.
3. Harness = (0,35*41000)/2 =7175, unaffected by the health based cap.

When you have too much magicka ( or not enough health ) hardened is above the health based cap and harness is unaffected, it reduce the slight gap between both shield ... Which is sad cause hardened is a class shield and should be superior to harness, Hardened cost 2900 magicka and harness cost 3900 but restore up to 4200 magicka ... The sustain is already better with harness, let's not reduce the gap between both shield strength.
Now some are probably like " Who care, sorc use both shields anyway, no need to choose " but keep in mind we don't shield stack in PVE, let's make the same calculation on a non-pet sorc in PVE.

16.124HP and 43 431 magicka.

1. health based cap = 6449
2. Hardened = (0,48*43431)= 20 846, affected by the health based cap = 6449.
3. Harness = (0,38*43431)/2= 15 200, affected by the health based cap = 6449.

Tell me how the choice is even interesting between both ? there is a 1K magicka cost difference between both, and harness restore up to 4200 magicka when you fight boss/mobs that deal magic/elemental damage.

The change is far better than a cast-time, but they could add some slight changes, 60% health based cap for conjured ward and morphs is one of them ( keep it 40% for harness).

The 10% increased strenght on Harneded ward isn't gonna be interesting, since we have low health and high magicka in PVE, I wonder how they plan to balance both morphs.

Exept that you can't shieldstack anymore. 40% is max amount you can shield yourself be it just hardened or hardened and harness combined. That is incredibly poor amount in pve and quite a big nerf in pvp too for a light armor sorc. If you manage to hit softcap resistances shield will be the same amount as harness+hardened is now on live.

cpuScientist wrote: »

Okokok

Stamina Overload however, especially with the new direction overload is being taken. Just makes sense. It gives sta Sorc an identity. If it's nade to return Stam on hit like the mag one it gives sustain through ultimate as seems to be the desire. It gives many new builds and ideas and just a refresh to the class in PvP. And help in the area if ssustain and monotonous rotation in PVE. And if it's strong enough take away from the over reliance on bow ultimate. It truly would be a fantastic change.

Now I believe both should go down. Air atronach and overload. Both make sense. But if it us only one please highly consider overload!

@ZOS_Wrobel

Unfortunately, the "fresh ideas" are prevented by the utter lack of bar space.
I've tested many new builds for the new OL, and none beats the old Overload, because you need

a) a source of empower (the damage without it is emberassing),
b) an additional source of Ulti regeneration (blocking the Ulti regen while active ... Who came with that idea?!)
c) at least another skill that increases its damage like Crushing Weapons, or Bound Armaments.

That's 2-4 dead Skill slots and 1-2 sets. With the only stamina skill to directly empower being the bad morph of a skill you won't land anyway because of the 3 swift meta. A pretty hefty price tag for something that can't be used against Wardens, DK, or anyone who uses a shield.
Even a Stam morph of it won't change a thing with its current implementation.

The only PvP build that works with the PTS Overload is a Snipetard who empowers it with mage light - a playstyle the OL change was supposed to prevent.

ruikkarikun wrote: »

@ZOS_RobGarrett @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel

How sorcerer pets (scamp and twilight matriarch) will survive in veteran dungeons and trials?
Because now in Live server pets are useless in veteran trials, and sometimes die in veteran dungeons (DLC, matriarch dies in vMA, vDSA).
So if they die with 20k shields how they will survive with 6k shield?

Here is what they said about pets in class reps meeting notes.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Pets
No critical resistance and the shield change mechanic means they are squishier. ZOS indicated to us they are willing to look at specific problematic PvE fights in which pets do more harm than good via triggering boss mechanics, dying, etc. The reps already have a thorough list and will send it to the Devs.

PVE only, PvPers just skip.

Look at the double standards: in this and in other threads you see a stamina player asking for suggestions about how to improve his PvE DPS.

If he had been a magsorc, the replies SHALL be:

• You cannot have cake and eat it
• You have to make sacrifices.
• Put skill points on health dude! And health enchants!
• You either give up on damage, or on survivability (the excuse that brought us the nerfs we get come next update)

Instead, as ALWAYS, and as every single other class and spec in game except magsorc, he gets the proper suggestions:

• Dude your gear is terrible, the BiS is full on DPS, with this and this gear set.
• Dude you must put all your skill points in stamina, so you get top DPS (see "Change attributes to all be in stam" reply, "... and for instance move most of your attribute points to stamina..." reply, "It's typically best to put all attribute points into stamina" reply. "Put all points into stamina" reply. Just go and read yourself).

Basically this game runs a double standard. If it's any other class and spec, "go all out ape-damage" but if it's magsorcs, then we MUST make sacrifices, we MUST put points into health, we MUST give up on this and that.

Why is that?

If magsorcs actually did crazy amounts of damage, or if magsorcs could respec to the best trial tank or best trial healer in 20 seconds, then I could understand the "cannot have it all" schooling.
But magsorcs today do average damage at best, and post patch they'll deal even less. And magsorcs cannot respec to anything else, nobody is going to take a magsorc trial tank or healer.

So, again, why do we have to receive nerf after nerf and give up this and that, while the others enjoy a full life with no compromise and no sacrifices?

How's that fair?

Vahrokh wrote: »

PVE only, PvPers just skip.

Look at the double standards: in this and in other threads you see a stamina player asking for suggestions about how to improve his PvE DPS.

If he had been a magsorc, the replies SHALL be:

• You cannot have cake and eat it
• You have to make sacrifices.
• Put skill points on health dude! And health enchants!
• You either give up on damage, or on survivability (the excuse that brought us the nerfs we get come next update)

Instead, as ALWAYS, and as every single other class and spec in game except magsorc, he gets the proper suggestions:

• Dude your gear is terrible, the BiS is full on DPS, with this and this gear set.
• Dude you must put all your skill points in stamina, so you get top DPS (see "Change attributes to all be in stam" reply, "... and for instance move most of your attribute points to stamina..." reply, "It's typically best to put all attribute points into stamina" reply. "Put all points into stamina" reply. Just go and read yourself).

Basically this game runs a double standard. If it's any other class and spec, "go all out ape-damage" but if it's magsorcs, then we MUST make sacrifices, we MUST put points into health, we MUST give up on this and that.

Why is that?

If magsorcs actually did crazy amounts of damage, or if magsorcs could respec to the best trial tank or best trial healer in 20 seconds, then I could understand the "cannot have it all" schooling.
But magsorcs today do average damage at best, and post patch they'll deal even less. And magsorcs cannot respec to anything else, nobody is going to take a magsorc trial tank or healer.

So, again, why do we have to receive nerf after nerf and give up this and that, while the others enjoy a full life with no compromise and no sacrifices?

How's that fair?

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

Why is defensive rune being lumped in with rune cage. Defensive rune the guy is glowing when you hit him how much more obvious than that can it be. The entire use of the stun gets destroyed if it is a delayed stun.

Leave defensive rune.