PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Tonturri

Vahrokh wrote: »

PVE only, PvPers just skip.

Look at the double standards: in this and in other threads you see a stamina player asking for suggestions about how to improve his PvE DPS.

If he had been a magsorc, the replies SHALL be:

• You cannot have cake and eat it
• You have to make sacrifices.
• Put skill points on health dude! And health enchants!
• You either give up on damage, or on survivability (the excuse that brought us the nerfs we get come next update)

Instead, as ALWAYS, and as every single other class and spec in game except magsorc, he gets the proper suggestions:

• Dude your gear is terrible, the BiS is full on DPS, with this and this gear set.
• Dude you must put all your skill points in stamina, so you get top DPS (see "Change attributes to all be in stam" reply, "... and for instance move most of your attribute points to stamina..." reply, "It's typically best to put all attribute points into stamina" reply. "Put all points into stamina" reply. Just go and read yourself).

Basically this game runs a double standard. If it's any other class and spec, "go all out ape-damage" but if it's magsorcs, then we MUST make sacrifices, we MUST put points into health, we MUST give up on this and that.

Why is that?

If magsorcs actually did crazy amounts of damage, or if magsorcs could respec to the best trial tank or best trial healer in 20 seconds, then I could understand the "cannot have it all" schooling.
But magsorcs today do average damage at best, and post patch they'll deal even less. And magsorcs cannot respec to anything else, nobody is going to take a magsorc trial tank or healer.

So, again, why do we have to receive nerf after nerf and give up this and that, while the others enjoy a full life with no compromise and no sacrifices?

How's that fair?

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

Sange13

Tonturri wrote: »

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

I think it's obvious: Every time they make a change to fix something with PvP, they wreck it for PvE, and visa versa.

Doctordarkspawn

Sange13 wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

I think it's obvious: Every time they make a change to fix something with PvP, they wreck it for PvE, and visa versa.

This is the real problem. It's a PVP problem that they took some PVE justification ("Healers feel useless") to solve with blanket changes. Now they wont admit there's not a problem.

Biro123

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sange13 wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

I think it's obvious: Every time they make a change to fix something with PvP, they wreck it for PvE, and visa versa.

This is the real problem. It's a PVP problem that they took some PVE justification ("Healers feel useless") to solve with blanket changes. Now they wont admit there's not a problem.

Lol. Some people will twist anything to fit their narrative.
Since when do they need 'pve justification' to apply balance to pvp?
Some people just cannot accept that PVE may need some blancing every now and then.
As it is, this is a pure PVE change which massively screws mag PVP.

cpuScientist

Why is defensive rune being lumped in with rune cage. Defensive rune the guy is glowing when you hit him how much more obvious than that can it be. The entire use of the stun gets destroyed if it is a delayed stun.

Leave defensive rune.

Doctordarkspawn

Biro123 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sange13 wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

I think it's obvious: Every time they make a change to fix something with PvP, they wreck it for PvE, and visa versa.

This is the real problem. It's a PVP problem that they took some PVE justification ("Healers feel useless") to solve with blanket changes. Now they wont admit there's not a problem.

Lol. Some people will twist anything to fit their narrative.
Since when do they need 'pve justification' to apply balance to pvp?
Some people just cannot accept that PVE may need some blancing every now and then.
As it is, this is a pure PVE change which massively screws mag PVP.

Since ZOS likes blanket fixes.

This is why heavy armor got wrath back in the day. PVP.

This is why Wrath got -removed-, back in the day. PVP.

Sidenote: I'd like bracing back still. still bitter.

PVE needs balancing. As in, the content needs to give, not player defenses. I wish they'd understand that. It's not a purely PVE change, it's a PVP change, plain and simple. Like it, dislike it, deny it and your just delusional. But then again, your the guy who kept going on and on about how shields are no longer stackable despite clear dev comments to the contrary.

ruikkarikun

@ZOS_GinaBruno
Can I get answer why stamina dps on Advanced Youkeda + Relequen (or any other dmg sets) don't invest anything into defence? They can block, roll dodge an run with high stamina pool, thy can use healers orbs being near boss etc. All into dmg. So why noone talking about glascannon stamina builds?

ruikkarikun

Vahrokh wrote: »

PVE only, PvPers just skip.

Look at the double standards: in this and in other threads you see a stamina player asking for suggestions about how to improve his PvE DPS.

If he had been a magsorc, the replies SHALL be:

• You cannot have cake and eat it
• You have to make sacrifices.
• Put skill points on health dude! And health enchants!
• You either give up on damage, or on survivability (the excuse that brought us the nerfs we get come next update)

Instead, as ALWAYS, and as every single other class and spec in game except magsorc, he gets the proper suggestions:

• Dude your gear is terrible, the BiS is full on DPS, with this and this gear set.
• Dude you must put all your skill points in stamina, so you get top DPS (see "Change attributes to all be in stam" reply, "... and for instance move most of your attribute points to stamina..." reply, "It's typically best to put all attribute points into stamina" reply. "Put all points into stamina" reply. Just go and read yourself).

Basically this game runs a double standard. If it's any other class and spec, "go all out ape-damage" but if it's magsorcs, then we MUST make sacrifices, we MUST put points into health, we MUST give up on this and that.

Why is that?

If magsorcs actually did crazy amounts of damage, or if magsorcs could respec to the best trial tank or best trial healer in 20 seconds, then I could understand the "cannot have it all" schooling.
But magsorcs today do average damage at best, and post patch they'll deal even less. And magsorcs cannot respec to anything else, nobody is going to take a magsorc trial tank or healer.

So, again, why do we have to receive nerf after nerf and give up this and that, while the others enjoy a full life with no compromise and no sacrifices?

How's that fair?

We need to push this, great point.

cpuScientist

I know we are all mad about shields. Buy right now the way rune cage has been changed. It's lost any use at all. Took away our frag stun our streak going through block. To give us this

Just forced into giving up build variety for a stun with DSA weapons. Or giving up extremely limited bar space for rune cage. Which is so far gone from being worthwhile.

I mean damnit. Frag was the perfect Stun. It allowed us to run 4 offensive skills and have a flex spot on the front bar. Ever since that was taken away alot of the fun and usability and variety was taken. The control as well is gone. As in having your spam also be your stun means you have to hold your spam back. The dpam is basically our chunker to try and get people into execute range. This change just all around blows GG ZOS

Biro123

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sange13 wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

I think it's obvious: Every time they make a change to fix something with PvP, they wreck it for PvE, and visa versa.

This is the real problem. It's a PVP problem that they took some PVE justification ("Healers feel useless") to solve with blanket changes. Now they wont admit there's not a problem.

Lol. Some people will twist anything to fit their narrative.
Since when do they need 'pve justification' to apply balance to pvp?
Some people just cannot accept that PVE may need some blancing every now and then.
As it is, this is a pure PVE change which massively screws mag PVP.

Since ZOS likes blanket fixes.

This is why heavy armor got wrath back in the day. PVP.

This is why Wrath got -removed-, back in the day. PVP.

Sidenote: I'd like bracing back still. still bitter.

PVE needs balancing. As in, the content needs to give, not player defenses. I wish they'd understand that. It's not a purely PVE change, it's a PVP change, plain and simple. Like it, dislike it, deny it and your just delusional. But then again, your the guy who kept going on and on about how shields are no longer stackable despite clear dev comments to the contrary.

Yeah, well, that was only an hour or so after those 'clear Dev comments' appeared many pages into a long thread which I'd given up reading due to the same old arguments being repeated.
You can't blame anyone for getting that wrong given how it was communicated.
Yet they have clearly and repeatedly said that the reason for the change was to make healers more necessary in PVE group content.
They've done it in such a way that it impacts the PvP shield size much less than PVE.
I suspect that the 40% figure is calculated for PVE so that with resist counting, and builds with a bit more health, it ends up with the big hits taking down your shield and a chunk of health so the healer has something to heal.
I suspect the crit damage was the afterthought to offset the resists so they wouldn't be too strong in PVP (but imho it's too much of an offset making quite a big nerf for light armour in PvP)
All of it, originating from PVE reasons.

I don't dispute that there are changes made for PvP which impact PVE. But this isn't one of them.
And fwiw, I do agree that they should balance the content around the players. Get PVP balance right then adjust the PVE mobs to balance for those already-balanced classes. Just a Shame the constant power-creep keeps messing with that.

Doctordarkspawn

Biro123 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sange13 wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

I think it's obvious: Every time they make a change to fix something with PvP, they wreck it for PvE, and visa versa.

This is the real problem. It's a PVP problem that they took some PVE justification ("Healers feel useless") to solve with blanket changes. Now they wont admit there's not a problem.

Lol. Some people will twist anything to fit their narrative.
Since when do they need 'pve justification' to apply balance to pvp?
Some people just cannot accept that PVE may need some blancing every now and then.
As it is, this is a pure PVE change which massively screws mag PVP.

Since ZOS likes blanket fixes.

This is why heavy armor got wrath back in the day. PVP.

This is why Wrath got -removed-, back in the day. PVP.

Sidenote: I'd like bracing back still. still bitter.

PVE needs balancing. As in, the content needs to give, not player defenses. I wish they'd understand that. It's not a purely PVE change, it's a PVP change, plain and simple. Like it, dislike it, deny it and your just delusional. But then again, your the guy who kept going on and on about how shields are no longer stackable despite clear dev comments to the contrary.

Yeah, well, that was only an hour or so after those 'clear Dev comments' appeared many pages into a long thread which I'd given up reading due to the same old arguments being repeated.
You can't blame anyone for getting that wrong given how it was communicated.
Yet they have clearly and repeatedly said that the reason for the change was to make healers more necessary in PVE group content.
They've done it in such a way that it impacts the PvP shield size much less than PVE.
I suspect that the 40% figure is calculated for PVE so that with resist counting, and builds with a bit more health, it ends up with the big hits taking down your shield and a chunk of health so the healer has something to heal.
I suspect the crit damage was the afterthought to offset the resists so they wouldn't be too strong in PVP (but imho it's too much of an offset making quite a big nerf for light armour in PvP)
All of it, originating from PVE reasons.

I don't dispute that there are changes made for PvP which impact PVE. But this isn't one of them.
And fwiw, I do agree that they should balance the content around the players. Get PVP balance right then adjust the PVE mobs to balance for those already-balanced classes. Just a Shame the constant power-creep keeps messing with that.

I will concede the power creep. Why they dont just get rid of the CP system and replace it with a standard tallent tree based around class and roll you want to spec into is beyond me. It would be easier to balance around and easier to code, surely. Could even use it to morph morphs like the community has wanted for a while now.

But they wont. Very rarely will ZOS ever let go of the death grip it has on solutions it proposes, wrath being a exception to this rule. ZOS will go to great and petty lengths to make sure the solution is never player made entirely.

Still. If it was a PVE solution it's not fit for purpose. People are allready reporting deaths to trial burst they just cant mitigate, most notibly black rose prison. Center cant hold. Buff the shield a little bit or nerf the content.

SilverWF

Sange13 wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

I think it's obvious: Every time they make a change to fix something with PvP, they wreck it for PvE, and visa versa.

That's why there must no be any differences between PVP and PVE. Most (if not all) AAA MMOs didn't have it, I was wondered, that even SWTOR got rid from this nonsense.

And yes, this requires a complex overhaul of all current skills, and all future changes must be done pretty wise.

Biro123

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Sange13 wrote: »

Tonturri wrote: »

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

I think it's obvious: Every time they make a change to fix something with PvP, they wreck it for PvE, and visa versa.

This is the real problem. It's a PVP problem that they took some PVE justification ("Healers feel useless") to solve with blanket changes. Now they wont admit there's not a problem.

Lol. Some people will twist anything to fit their narrative.
Since when do they need 'pve justification' to apply balance to pvp?
Some people just cannot accept that PVE may need some blancing every now and then.
As it is, this is a pure PVE change which massively screws mag PVP.

Since ZOS likes blanket fixes.

This is why heavy armor got wrath back in the day. PVP.

This is why Wrath got -removed-, back in the day. PVP.

Sidenote: I'd like bracing back still. still bitter.

PVE needs balancing. As in, the content needs to give, not player defenses. I wish they'd understand that. It's not a purely PVE change, it's a PVP change, plain and simple. Like it, dislike it, deny it and your just delusional. But then again, your the guy who kept going on and on about how shields are no longer stackable despite clear dev comments to the contrary.

Yeah, well, that was only an hour or so after those 'clear Dev comments' appeared many pages into a long thread which I'd given up reading due to the same old arguments being repeated.
You can't blame anyone for getting that wrong given how it was communicated.
Yet they have clearly and repeatedly said that the reason for the change was to make healers more necessary in PVE group content.
They've done it in such a way that it impacts the PvP shield size much less than PVE.
I suspect that the 40% figure is calculated for PVE so that with resist counting, and builds with a bit more health, it ends up with the big hits taking down your shield and a chunk of health so the healer has something to heal.
I suspect the crit damage was the afterthought to offset the resists so they wouldn't be too strong in PVP (but imho it's too much of an offset making quite a big nerf for light armour in PvP)
All of it, originating from PVE reasons.

I don't dispute that there are changes made for PvP which impact PVE. But this isn't one of them.
And fwiw, I do agree that they should balance the content around the players. Get PVP balance right then adjust the PVE mobs to balance for those already-balanced classes. Just a Shame the constant power-creep keeps messing with that.

I will concede the power creep. Why they dont just get rid of the CP system and replace it with a standard tallent tree based around class and roll you want to spec into is beyond me. It would be easier to balance around and easier to code, surely. Could even use it to morph morphs like the community has wanted for a while now.

But they wont. Very rarely will ZOS ever let go of the death grip it has on solutions it proposes, wrath being a exception to this rule. ZOS will go to great and petty lengths to make sure the solution is never player made entirely.

Still. If it was a PVE solution it's not fit for purpose. People are allready reporting deaths to trial burst they just cant mitigate, most notibly black rose prison. Center cant hold. Buff the shield a little bit or nerf the content.

I don't think its fit for PvP either.. just pushes everyone into the same old heavy armour/crit-resist builds... even though they're trying to make light and med more attractive.

Galarthor

The shield change was 100% PvE related, saying otherwise is just wishful thinking or creation of legends ignoring teh facts (i.e. reason given by ZOS).

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't think its fit for PvP either.. just pushes everyone into the same old heavy armour/crit-resist builds... even though they're trying to make light and med more attractive.

At this point I think it's just empty promises. With each update heavy armor builds become more attractive compared to light and medium armor. It's not even moving in the right direction - i.e. reducing the gap between heavy and the other 2 - but in the complete opposite. We have had a heavy armor meta for years now. If they really wanted to address that they would have. But the fact of the matter is, most updates don't even include changes to the armor passives.

At this point, ZOS saying they want to make light and medium armor more attractive / competetive is like a 200kg obese guy saying that this year he finally wants to lose weight and go to the gym - for the 20th year in a row. He might have the intent, but we all know it won't be happening this year either and probably never will.

Kova

Is oblivion/unavoidable damage getting removed with this as well?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around a 40% health cap, shattering blows, sloads, shieldbreaker, oblivion glyphs and crit damage.

So with 23k health does it mean our total shield strength is 9.2k or is it additive with shield stacking? Is that before or after cyrodiil shield subtraction? Will my 9.2k shield still be critted and hit with oblivion damage from anti-shield sets?

There are so many questions.

Lord-Otto

Kova wrote: »

Is oblivion/unavoidable damage getting removed with this as well?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around a 40% health cap, shattering blows, sloads, shieldbreaker, oblivion glyphs and crit damage.

So with 23k health does it mean our total shield strength is 9.2k or is it additive with shield stacking? Is that before or after cyrodiil shield subtraction? Will my 9.2k shield still be critted and hit with oblivion damage from anti-shield sets?

There are so many questions.

It's per shield, so you can stack that 18k in your case. Battle Spirit already taken into account, 4.5k shields would be useless. Crits and Obl. still there.

ezio45

Tonturri wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

PVE only, PvPers just skip.

Look at the double standards: in this and in other threads you see a stamina player asking for suggestions about how to improve his PvE DPS.

If he had been a magsorc, the replies SHALL be:

• You cannot have cake and eat it
• You have to make sacrifices.
• Put skill points on health dude! And health enchants!
• You either give up on damage, or on survivability (the excuse that brought us the nerfs we get come next update)

Instead, as ALWAYS, and as every single other class and spec in game except magsorc, he gets the proper suggestions:

• Dude your gear is terrible, the BiS is full on DPS, with this and this gear set.
• Dude you must put all your skill points in stamina, so you get top DPS (see "Change attributes to all be in stam" reply, "... and for instance move most of your attribute points to stamina..." reply, "It's typically best to put all attribute points into stamina" reply. "Put all points into stamina" reply. Just go and read yourself).

Basically this game runs a double standard. If it's any other class and spec, "go all out ape-damage" but if it's magsorcs, then we MUST make sacrifices, we MUST put points into health, we MUST give up on this and that.

Why is that?

If magsorcs actually did crazy amounts of damage, or if magsorcs could respec to the best trial tank or best trial healer in 20 seconds, then I could understand the "cannot have it all" schooling.
But magsorcs today do average damage at best, and post patch they'll deal even less. And magsorcs cannot respec to anything else, nobody is going to take a magsorc trial tank or healer.

So, again, why do we have to receive nerf after nerf and give up this and that, while the others enjoy a full life with no compromise and no sacrifices?

How's that fair?

I have never seen anyone tell /any/ PvE dps to do anything other than all-in to DPS, sorcs included (aside from what the DPS needs to sustain their rotation, which for everyone but apparently nightblades requires some additional sustain). There is no guide that recommends otherwise that I'm aware of. Not sure why you're making this a PvE thing when it's mostly a PvP issue - anybody who recommends any sorc DPS to 'invest in some health' or whatever is horrendously foolish.

I totally agree with the gist of the post but why make this out to be a pure pve thing?

@ZOS_RobGarrett i have said this many times, pve dps doesnt need to sacrifice for survivability. why does mag sorc? or light in general. no stam does

Derra

Galarthor wrote: »

The shield change was 100% PvE related, saying otherwise is just wishful thinking or creation of legends ignoring teh facts (i.e. reason given by ZOS).

Biro123 wrote: »

I don't think its fit for PvP either.. just pushes everyone into the same old heavy armour/crit-resist builds... even though they're trying to make light and med more attractive.

At this point I think it's just empty promises. With each update heavy armor builds become more attractive compared to light and medium armor. It's not even moving in the right direction - i.e. reducing the gap between heavy and the other 2 - but in the complete opposite. We have had a heavy armor meta for years now. If they really wanted to address that they would have. But the fact of the matter is, most updates don't even include changes to the armor passives.

At this point, ZOS saying they want to make light and medium armor more attractive / competetive is like a 200kg obese guy saying that this year he finally wants to lose weight and go to the gym - for the 20th year in a row. He might have the intent, but we all know it won't be happening this year either and probably never will.

The problem is imo partly with perception of the players.
Light armor is - atleast for certain classes - competetive to heavyarmor and it will stay that way. The next patch won´t change much about that - i think the biggest nerf to light is the change to healing ward.

The problem is heavy armor builds are comparatively easier to play and allow for more mistakes. For the average player this makes heavy still vastly superious in terms of quality of playing experience. On average they won´t notice or be unable to utilize the improved offense light armor might offer them.

For medium vs heavy things lie quite a bit different as heavyarmor stamina sets are vaaaastly more attractive than medium armor ones. Truth, Seventh, Fury, Ravager are all vastly superior dmg sets to anything what medium offers.
The second issue lies with mediums schizophrenic approach to gameplay. You can´t have bonuses designed around alphastrike (sneak/stealth) while at the same time expecting the same incombat efficiency as armorweights/builds not having the luxury of chosing fights and initial hits.

So imo.
Heavy is clearly better than medium - partly due to itemisation partly due to medium being hard to balance figuring all aspects of the game.
Heavy is somewhat better than light - due to survivability being preferable over dmg for most players. Itemisation part is missing here because all good heavy dmg sets are stamina.

Vahrokh

cpuScientist wrote: »

I know we are all mad about shields. Buy right now the way rune cage has been changed. It's lost any use at all. Took away our frag stun our streak going through block. To give us this

I've played PvP in online games since 2005 (PvE since 1994).
I've seen it all, from hard core, lootable corpse, permanent death survival games to meaningless PvP where you just press a button and are as good as new. From Darkfall Online to TOA. From DAoC to EvE Online to SWTOR / GW2 / WoW / Warhammer you name it, I've PvPed it ALL (not talking about how much I've played PvP StarCraft and other awesome non MMO PvP games).

But when I played PvP in ESO I immediately understood it'd never work, it'd never have twitch-grade performance, it'd never be more than a nicely flavoured grind. So, I let the ESO PvP corpse rot in peace and only dedicated myself to PvE. Therefore I only talk about ESO PvE (very badly implemented too), because I don't feel confident - nor interested - into talking about ESO PvP.

Aldul

Streak did stun through block
On live I used to do it

At some point (for a long time, actually), out raid leader's advice back then was to hold block when standing still in order not to be stunned by a streaker. And it worked. I never caught how streak would ignore block, but, hey, I missed it, obviously.

Remeber how streaking through masses was building up mad ultimate? Great times for zergbusters

Galarthor

@Derra I agree, that's why I proposed the following changes in another thread:

Galarthor wrote: »

Somewhere along the way ZOS lost their sense of direction. Heavy armor has turned into a jack-of-all-trades and master of all in PvP. Tanks wear it, healers wear it, damage dealers wear it and they can with very little downsides (especially stamina DPS / tanks). We have had a heavy armor meta for what? 2 years now? Every update ZOS promises us to tackle the problem but never really do. Seems like they think it's too complicated, when it fact it is rather easy.

Add the following passives to the Armor Skill lines.

Light Armor:
1) Increase shield size by x% per piece of light armor
2) Increase healing done by x% per piece of light armor
3) Increase magicka based damage done by x% per piece of light armor (mandatory!)

Medium Armor:
Change the percentage of damage mitigated by dodge rolling to less than 100%, not the dodge of CC though!
1) Increase damage mitigated by dodge roll by x% per piece of medium armor
2) Increase the healing received / done by healing over time effects by x% per piece of medium armor
3) Increase stamina based damage done by x% per piece of medium armor (mandatory!)

Heavy Armor:
1) Reduce all damage done by x% per piece of heavy armor (mandatory!)

Cost Reductions are not included here since they already exist in the respective armor skill lines and would just require some tweaking depending on the actual x values chosen!

That way we can reduce the damage of heavy armor sets sufficiently so that heavy armor becomes primarily a survivability armor type - just the way it was intended. At the same time we can prevent them from effectively and efficiently using defensive tools that are not meant for heavy armor builds, but rather as compensation for the lack of resistences (and block) of medium armor and light armor compared to heavy armor.

Aldul

Vahrokh wrote: »

when I played PvP in ESO I immediately understood it'd never work

Can you admit you are giving an opinion rather than stating a fact, here? It "works" for so many people. They'll all say "you are wrong". I won't say that. But, whats the point of such a comment. Thanks (for nothing?) Constructively speaking: How can we please you, here?

Bam_Bam

Vahrokh wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

I know we are all mad about shields. Buy right now the way rune cage has been changed. It's lost any use at all. Took away our frag stun our streak going through block. To give us this

I've played PvP in online games since 2005 (PvE since 1994).
I've seen it all, from hard core, lootable corpse, permanent death survival games to meaningless PvP where you just press a button and are as good as new. From Darkfall Online to TOA. From DAoC to EvE Online to SWTOR / GW2 / WoW / Warhammer you name it, I've PvPed it ALL (not talking about how much I've played PvP StarCraft and other awesome non MMO PvP games).

But when I played PvP in ESO I immediately understood it'd never work, it'd never have twitch-grade performance, it'd never be more than a nicely flavoured grind. So, I let the ESO PvP corpse rot in peace and only dedicated myself to PvE. Therefore I only talk about ESO PvE (very badly implemented too), because I don't feel confident - nor interested - into talking about ESO PvP.

It works for MANY people. And I find that your comments don't stand up to scrutiny.

For example, you say you, "immediately knew it would never work" and, "let the ESO PvP corpse rot in peace and only dedicated myself to PvE".

How can you know something "can't work" if you immediately leave it to play a completely different part of the game (PvE)?

What was it that solidified that point of view to such a degree that you saw absolutely no hope for it? Was it really your encyclopaedic-wealth of PvP expertise?

Or did you get your backside handed to you, maybe? There's no shame in the latter (happens to me daily whenever I enter Cyrodiil. lol).

Unless you have spent a lot of time PvPing in Cyrodiil, you really aren't in a position to say it doesn't work. It's like me starting a veteran dungeon for the first time and saying it can't work because I've played other games that I think have better dungeons.

Not that it matters in the slightest, but I've played PvP ever since we set up Doom on a LAN in the works office, way back in 1994. I helped a mate set up a server for Neverwinter Nights in 2002 before joining a different NWN server and PvPing there for 10 years.

ezio45

Hey...hey... @ZOS_RobGarrett

can we maybe help sorcs for once????

like make it so haunting curse doesnt override it self on the same targets and give liquid lighting a bigger aoe so it doesnt have to be like perfectly thrown down.....

ty

Also, can we take the major ward and resolve from lighting form and give it to aegis as aegis's active effect with a like 30 sec duration and keep the 4% mag increase and give lightning form aegis's minor ward/ resolve as lighting forms active effect?

why? because magsorc doesnt use lighting form, we are ranged dps we also slot aegis as a mostly useless buff... so instead of a useless dmg skill and a useless buff skill lets have a useful buff skill that helps sustain with its passive 4% mag and survivability with a major resolve/ward. Leave hurricane and bound armors stam morph alone, stam sorc actually uses hurricane because the are melee dps

also assuming we do that so theres a reason to use aegis instead of just slot it, can we have it count as a pet for the 8% health bonus from expert summoner?

a guys dont seem to know what to do with rune cage.... buffed it in 18, nerfed it back to almost normal in 19 and here we are in 20 with it less usefull than it was in 17.... my personal favorite idea is make it a dot that you can cast on a player even if they have cc immunity and have the stun take effect after the time you added in 20 if their not cc imune. dont care how strong of a dot it is, it can do 1 damage per second as long as it can crit for 2 dmg and be used to heal with power surge. make the duration like 10 sec on the dot. would be a good way to heal in pvp for sorc... heals are kinda important, dont know if you heard but zos nerfed shields.... and they removed the instant heal from healing ward.... really loved update 20 btw... *sarcastic undertones*

also if you wanna give runecage minor breech for 10's that'd be cool. help slay the tank meta players in pvp and would give a reason to run runecage in pve and would allow pve grps with one of those rare sorc non nightblade things to get a little buff if they dont have someone running power of the light. heard sorcs are lacking in the debuff department (some helpful forum person post that chat below ty)

Vahrokh

Bam_Bam wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

cpuScientist wrote: »

I know we are all mad about shields. Buy right now the way rune cage has been changed. It's lost any use at all. Took away our frag stun our streak going through block. To give us this

I've played PvP in online games since 2005 (PvE since 1994).
I've seen it all, from hard core, lootable corpse, permanent death survival games to meaningless PvP where you just press a button and are as good as new. From Darkfall Online to TOA. From DAoC to EvE Online to SWTOR / GW2 / WoW / Warhammer you name it, I've PvPed it ALL (not talking about how much I've played PvP StarCraft and other awesome non MMO PvP games).

But when I played PvP in ESO I immediately understood it'd never work, it'd never have twitch-grade performance, it'd never be more than a nicely flavoured grind. So, I let the ESO PvP corpse rot in peace and only dedicated myself to PvE. Therefore I only talk about ESO PvE (very badly implemented too), because I don't feel confident - nor interested - into talking about ESO PvP.

It works for MANY people. And I find that your comments don't stand up to scrutiny.

For example, you say you, "immediately knew it would never work" and, "let the ESO PvP corpse rot in peace and only dedicated myself to PvE".

How can you know something "can't work" if you immediately leave it to play a completely different part of the game (PvE)?

What was it that solidified that point of view to such a degree that you saw absolutely no hope for it? Was it really your encyclopaedic-wealth of PvP expertise?

Or did you get your backside handed to you, maybe? There's no shame in the latter (happens to me daily whenever I enter Cyrodiil. lol).

Unless you have spent a lot of time PvPing in Cyrodiil, you really aren't in a position to say it doesn't work. It's like me starting a veteran dungeon for the first time and saying it can't work because I've played other games that I think have better dungeons.

Not that it matters in the slightest, but I've played PvP ever since we set up Doom on a LAN in the works office, way back in 1994. I helped a mate set up a server for Neverwinter Nights in 2002 before joining a different NWN server and PvPing there for 10 years.

Because it does not take a lot of time to see if there are tactic elements (tight transit spots, keeps where defenders can stay up and play the pre-walls breach for a longer time), maybe body block for funnels. Death recaps where you see 10 abilities that the game actually had shown you in real time, not after you are dead. Death and respawn, no "horse-riding sim with huge loading screens".
Sets that make sense, counterplay has to come from skilled gameplay, not for wearing auto-proc.
No "desync" stuff, that's really visible.
Does not take a lot of time to see troll builds, exacerbated "meta" where people find an utterly imbalanced one trick pony and can use it for the next 6 months.
Does not take a long time to see people have to use something totally different than the flavour they had chosen to quest / PvE with. From light armor + pets (just to make an example) to heavy armor, no pets, heal backbar and whatever.
For those who joined later, didn't take long to see how CPs twist balance and create "performance gaps" that go well beyond what's usually accepted as "fair classes balance".

Derra

Galarthor wrote: »

@Derra I agree, that's why I proposed the following changes in another thread:

Galarthor wrote: »

Somewhere along the way ZOS lost their sense of direction. Heavy armor has turned into a jack-of-all-trades and master of all in PvP. Tanks wear it, healers wear it, damage dealers wear it and they can with very little downsides (especially stamina DPS / tanks). We have had a heavy armor meta for what? 2 years now? Every update ZOS promises us to tackle the problem but never really do. Seems like they think it's too complicated, when it fact it is rather easy.

Add the following passives to the Armor Skill lines.

Light Armor:
1) Increase shield size by x% per piece of light armor
2) Increase healing done by x% per piece of light armor
3) Increase magicka based damage done by x% per piece of light armor (mandatory!)

Medium Armor:
Change the percentage of damage mitigated by dodge rolling to less than 100%, not the dodge of CC though!
1) Increase damage mitigated by dodge roll by x% per piece of medium armor
2) Increase the healing received / done by healing over time effects by x% per piece of medium armor
3) Increase stamina based damage done by x% per piece of medium armor (mandatory!)

Heavy Armor:
1) Reduce all damage done by x% per piece of heavy armor (mandatory!)

Cost Reductions are not included here since they already exist in the respective armor skill lines and would just require some tweaking depending on the actual x values chosen!

That way we can reduce the damage of heavy armor sets sufficiently so that heavy armor becomes primarily a survivability armor type - just the way it was intended. At the same time we can prevent them from effectively and efficiently using defensive tools that are not meant for heavy armor builds, but rather as compensation for the lack of resistences (and block) of medium armor and light armor compared to heavy armor.

I think it´s very problematic to reduce dmg done by heavyarmor.

The heavy melee brawler archetype is a staple favorite of people through various rpgs and mmorpgs - atleast from my perception.

Personally i´d adress heavy over mobility not over dmg done as reducing dmg done would mean eliminating a certain playstyle (and i think we all agreed that was NOT desireable when it happened to shields).

Galarthor

If you want to address it over mobilty you'd have to change mobilty in the game entirely. Since even if you only move at let's say 75% you can still use gap closers. And the way gap openers and gap closers work in this game you'd barely notice the speed difference in a fight.

I can see why you think many people would like a heavy melee brawler, but it becomes a problem when that heavy melee brawler can take as much damage as a tank while dealing as much damage as a glass cannon - which is pretty much the status quo. Because once a build is outperforms in every metric, there is no reason to play any other builds. With LA and MA you have to make a tradeoff between damage and survivability (yes even with shields), you don't really have to do that with heavy armor. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to give heavy melee brawlers the "shield treatment" but they will have to sacrifice either in the DPS or the survivabiltiy department in order to make other armor types competetive again.

Nicko_Lps

Derra wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

@Derra I agree, that's why I proposed the following changes in another thread:

Galarthor wrote: »

Somewhere along the way ZOS lost their sense of direction. Heavy armor has turned into a jack-of-all-trades and master of all in PvP. Tanks wear it, healers wear it, damage dealers wear it and they can with very little downsides (especially stamina DPS / tanks). We have had a heavy armor meta for what? 2 years now? Every update ZOS promises us to tackle the problem but never really do. Seems like they think it's too complicated, when it fact it is rather easy.

Add the following passives to the Armor Skill lines.

Light Armor:
1) Increase shield size by x% per piece of light armor
2) Increase healing done by x% per piece of light armor
3) Increase magicka based damage done by x% per piece of light armor (mandatory!)

Medium Armor:
Change the percentage of damage mitigated by dodge rolling to less than 100%, not the dodge of CC though!
1) Increase damage mitigated by dodge roll by x% per piece of medium armor
2) Increase the healing received / done by healing over time effects by x% per piece of medium armor
3) Increase stamina based damage done by x% per piece of medium armor (mandatory!)

Heavy Armor:
1) Reduce all damage done by x% per piece of heavy armor (mandatory!)

Cost Reductions are not included here since they already exist in the respective armor skill lines and would just require some tweaking depending on the actual x values chosen!

That way we can reduce the damage of heavy armor sets sufficiently so that heavy armor becomes primarily a survivability armor type - just the way it was intended. At the same time we can prevent them from effectively and efficiently using defensive tools that are not meant for heavy armor builds, but rather as compensation for the lack of resistences (and block) of medium armor and light armor compared to heavy armor.

I think it´s very problematic to reduce dmg done by heavyarmor.

The heavy melee brawler archetype is a staple favorite of people through various rpgs and mmorpgs - atleast from my perception.

Personally i´d adress heavy over mobility not over dmg done as reducing dmg done would mean eliminating a certain playstyle (and i think we all agreed that was NOT desireable when it happened to shields).

So youre cool with heavy armor players bursting both of your shields in 1.5 sec?

The current shields, with the new upcoming "balance" change you will get 1shotted.

A glassy build takes its risk by being glassy, trading defense for sustain.

Heavy armors trade nothing for dmg with those current sets they have + DB, they are allowed to do many mistakes while 1 mistake sends you back to wayshrine.

Tanks should be sustaining heavy dmg, not 1shotting ppl with a 3key combo while stacking several debuffs on you.

ebix_

zos ,you can nerf shields another way , make shields like streak .. so if u cast a second shield within 4 seconds after first one , cost of second one increases by like 50% so this way ppl can't spam shield on pvp cuz it drains mana very quick and it have very low impact on pve .

Cronopoly

4.2.1 Natch Potes - under the Armor set Soldier of Anguish some were interested in....

Soldier of Anguish: Reduced the healing absorption value to 4800 from 5500, and the healing absorption debuff from this set can no longer stack with itself.

Developer Comment: UNHIDDEN
Damage shields from multiple sources cannot be stacked. We want healing absorption to follow this same ruleset.

Is this the 1st confirmation of this intention? Did I miss this in the 4.2.0 Notes. I didn't see it. Keep me honest.