PTS Update 20 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer

Lieblingsjunge

For PvP, considering Battle Spirit and the likes, you won't even notice the 40% cap.
It's just cutting it short in PvE. This will have barely any effect on pvp, whatsoever. But will be interesting to see how it interacts with Bastion CP. (Can't you just remove Bastion CP and be done with it already, no more balancing for shields needed).

ccmedaddy

Strongly disagree with removing Bastion altogether. It would be ridiculous if light armor users were deprived of an option to boost their main defense via CP when pretty much everything else (dmg, healing, etc) can be still amplified.

Feric51

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

For PvP, considering Battle Spirit and the likes, you won't even notice the 40% cap.
It's just cutting it short in PvE. This will have barely any effect on pvp, whatsoever. But will be interesting to see how it interacts with Bastion CP. (Can't you just remove Bastion CP and be done with it already, no more balancing for shields needed).

There are many shields Bastion applies to, not just the 2 skills that are the center of this whole controversy. But to that point, on my sorc, if I respec and put zero points into Bastion, both my shields' tooltips will still be above the 40% HP cap. If Bastion is applied pre-40% cutoff, then Bastion will already be effectively removed for me, but if is applied post-40% and adds to that, then it is still valuable.

But removing Bastion all together would punish a lot of the other classes' shields that need it.

Qwazzy

Can we talk about an insta-cast option for crystal blast, or a stun option for crystal fragments. Bar space is going to be tight without overload.

HappyElephant

Does not Make Sense

I don't understand ZOS' thinking when they nerf classes.

Essentially we have a situation where some classes are popular in the game because they are fun to play. I repeat, "FUN TO PLAY."

A smart person would say, "Let me find out what I did right with these popular classes like the Sorc or Magblade ...say... and try to repeat it with the other classes so that they too can be FUN TO PLAY.

Why would you destroy entire classes and make them no longer viable?

cpuScientist

Damn do I wish fresh still stunned and streak stunned thorough block. So much better it was back then.

When frag has bite. When fights were fun. When my build didn't need me to use a DSA staff.

Maulkin

cpuScientist wrote: »

Damn do I wish fresh still stunned and streak stunned thorough block. So much better it was back then.

When frag has bite. When fights were fun. When my build didn't need me to use a DSA staff.

Streak stunning through block was never live. It was for only one PTS cycle way way back in IC or Wrothgar update.

However it’s basically what many of us have been campaigning for since the frag nerf. Get rid of rune cage 40m stun and make Streak stun go through block instead. Since Streak teleport is only 8m you need to basically be in melee range and also target in the right direction to get a stun (a short one at that). It’d be far more balanced and saves a slot.

They ignored that and decided to go through the ridiculous overbuff/overnerc cycle with Rune Cage instead.

Galarthor

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

For PvP, considering Battle Spirit and the likes, you won't even notice the 40% cap.
It's just cutting it short in PvE. This will have barely any effect on pvp, whatsoever. But will be interesting to see how it interacts with Bastion CP. (Can't you just remove Bastion CP and be done with it already, no more balancing for shields needed).

The roughly 9000 max from the 40% cap is totally the same as the 12000 you currently get from Hardened Ward. Not a 25% nerf at all. And the fact that shields now can be critted ofc does not make this an even bigger nerf with up to somewhere in the neighborhood of 50%.

As for the bastion CP:
sure, let's give stam builds cost reduction for block and dodge but nothing to magicka builds. Totally balanced. Especially since neither block or dodge need to be adjusted to the increased damage from CPs (b/c neither has an upper limit) unlike heals and shields that have an upper limit and as such need to be adjusted upwards to compensate for the additional damage from CPs.

jarydf

If shields still stack and the size of each shield reduced wont that force magsorcs to stack shields to get enough protection?

I am confused as to what the nerf is trying to achieve.

Doctordarkspawn

The more I think about it, the more I come to a simple conclusion:

Keep the critable shields and the shields benefiting from resistances.

Remove the cap.

Simply put: The crit is going to be what kills shields to everything but tank builds and the only one the cap is hurting is PVE where oneshots and massive damage allready dominate most of the content.

Something has to give and given you dont like retooling old content, ZOS, it's time to give up and rescend the change. If the change hits live and sorcs cant survive oneshots they reasonibly should, you've failed.

Vahrokh

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I come to a simple conclusion:

Keep the critable shields and the shields benefiting from resistances.

Remove the cap.

Simply put: The crit is going to be what kills shields to everything but tank builds and the only one the cap is hurting is PVE where oneshots and massive damage allready dominate most of the content.

Something has to give and given you dont like retooling old content, ZOS, it's time to give up and rescend the change. If the change hits live and sorcs cant survive oneshots they reasonibly should, you've failed.

Sorcs balance has already failed.

ZOS hired Gilliamtherogue, who is the NB genius. They should have hired a MalcolmX for sorcs balance. He would have provided informed input about over and underperforming PvP abilities instead of throwing random darts to a dartboard and see which ones stick and which ones cause players revolts.

Even then, they'd be balancing the game by informed but 0.1% super elite players who can do the impossible.
Instead, a MMO is a massively large game for massive numbers, balance should come from analythics and data mining, like CCP does on their MMO since a decade.

keto3000

Qwazz wrote: »

Can we talk about an insta-cast option for crystal blast, or a stun option for crystal fragments. Bar space is going to be tight without overload.

Qwazz wrote: »

Can we talk about an insta-cast option for crystal blast, or a stun option for crystal fragments. Bar space is going to be tight without overload.

While they are at it, switch the names of the morphs to better reflect what they do:

Crystal Blast should be the name of the single target morph. MAKE IT INSTANT & COST STAMINA

Crystal Fragments should be the name of the AOE (fragments hit multi targets) morph. MAKE IT INSTANT & COST MAGICKA.

Doctordarkspawn

Vahrokh wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I come to a simple conclusion:

Keep the critable shields and the shields benefiting from resistances.

Remove the cap.

Simply put: The crit is going to be what kills shields to everything but tank builds and the only one the cap is hurting is PVE where oneshots and massive damage allready dominate most of the content.

Something has to give and given you dont like retooling old content, ZOS, it's time to give up and rescend the change. If the change hits live and sorcs cant survive oneshots they reasonibly should, you've failed.

Sorcs balance has already failed.

ZOS hired Gilliamtherogue, who is the NB genius. They should have hired a MalcolmX for sorcs balance. He would have provided informed input about over and underperforming PvP abilities instead of throwing random darts to a dartboard and see which ones stick and which ones cause players revolts.

Even then, they'd be balancing the game by informed but 0.1% super elite players who can do the impossible.
Instead, a MMO is a massively large game for massive numbers, balance should come from analythics and data mining, like CCP does on their MMO since a decade.

If this were true, they wouldn't have tried to get the class reps as a program off the ground.

People blame Gilliam alot. I doubt he's to blame, I doubt he's even there for anything other than analytics. You want someone to blame? Try the dude who, by all records I can find and screenshots of class reps talking to others, has come up with the idea's and has this idea in his head that what he's doing is right and is unable to understand where it failed. And I'll give you three guesses as to who that is.

Right now, we're seeing the same attempt to reconcile a problem, based on the assumption there is a problem to be solved. And the problem has allready been solved, the shields are now alot less durable in PVP now that their critable. But someone at ZOS has got it into their heads that shields are a problem in PVE because healers, and their convinced it's that because they dont wanna achnowledge their own reliance on oneshots.

You fight it by continuing to ask questions they cant answer. You make them see the holes in their logic, and they either see sense, or they lose buisness.

ruikkarikun

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RobGarrett
Why critable shields is not enough? Why do you want to nerf to the ground?
HP cap of shields is a joke in PVE. If you think sorcerer is OP why any vet trial now is like 9+ magicka nightblades? Where is your logic?

Community asked about removing cast time, said about how bad sustain sorcerer has, about overload, useless rune cage, weak selfheal, low resistances in light armor in PVE, slow and dying pets, pets bad AI, and your answer is deleting cast time and nerfing shields again?

How, why? Why do you HATE SORCERER SO MUCH?
You want people quit? What reaction you excpect when you make class weak and nerfing it for the ground?

Tonturri

Maulkin wrote: »

Feric51 wrote: »

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Okay, I appreciate the overall direction... but 40% of my health bar on a 24k sorc shield? So Basically why run hardened ward because I'll always be so far over the health cap?

Is this 40% for ALL shields stacking or just each shield individually?

Shields still stack the same way as before. We didn't change that behavior. The health-based cap is applied per individual shield.

ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »

itzTJ wrote: »

So does that change to shields occur before or after battle spirit. Because shields are cut in half in pvp. So if a sorc has like 20-24k health, as most do, then they can expect an 8k - 12k shield? (not the best a math). But if you cut it in half because of battle spirit then a sorc with that amount of health is looking at a very small shield. Can someone clarify?

The current plan is for the new cap (based on maximum health) to be enforced after Battle Spirit is applied. In your example, if a Sorc with 24k hp and 35k Magicka casts Annulment:

1. The shield would start at 12,250. (35k Magicka * 0.35 coefficient)
2. The shield would be halved by Battle Spirit to 6,125.
3. The shield would be unaffected by the health-based cap, because 6,125 < 9,600. (9,600 = 40% of 24k hp)

The team will continue to monitor and evaluate the change though.

Just in case you guys haven't ventured into the class rep thread. Here are this morning's clarifications from Rob.

Still no mention of whether Bastion applies before 40% cap or after though.

Thanks for linking that.

I'll be honest I like what I'm hearing from that. I still don't think that on its own this is workable from magSorc POV. But from the POV of balancing damage shields as a mechanic, it's a good direction to be taking them towards.

Now I want to see them adding/improving the HoTs in the magSorc toolkit and maybe giving some more mitigation. Then I can fully get behind these changes. Cause left like this they would still gut magSorc in PvP.

My issue thus far is that sorc HAS a hot, a heal, etc. It's just nearly difficult to impossible to actually fit that into a build, especially with the 3rd bar gone.

For magicka, you've got:
Frags, CC, shield, spammable/drain, execute
Streak, Curse, Healing ward, Dark deal....

Or some combination. Whatever. Anyway, you've got maybe 1 flex slot. Fitting both Surge and something that can actually proc it into your build with any regularity forces you to give up far, far too much. It just doesn't fit (hee).

I'd love it if Rune had a medium strength DoT that activated on CC break, or could be cast against CC immune targets for a stronger DoT, and lightning form had some sorta stacking effect where, every time it hit someone it put a small DoT on them, stacking intensity. That way you could use it against even ranged builds by running up and getting a hit or two in. It wouldn't be strong, but at least it could crit and proc Surge.

And then this is all blown to pieces if you want to try and run even one pet.

Our skills need to do more, both the skills most currently use and the things that see less use so they're worth losing out on other stuff.

PhoenixGrey

I just hope shields will still stack.

I don't see how sorc can sustain without it.

Morgul667

I wished stamsorc would get some love

ruikkarikun

So many detailed posts, so many people asked for remove 1 secon cast time and they remove it and gave us more huge nerf 40% hp shields?
Are you guys understood what happend?
Is this trolling, or killing class or I don't know?

6-8k shileld in PVE equivalent 1 second cast time?

Where are you all people? We got MORE HUGE NERF.

ezio45

Is a non met magsorc even capable of 50k dps ?

also what is a build for that

im assuming lambris, siroira and mothers sorrow?

NyxWrench

I've never seen a 50k parse from sorcerer. On the other hand, sorcerer is heavily AOE, and I never see anyone do parses on 2 or 3 skeletons at once. I'd love to see a 3-target parse comparison between jobs.

jarydf

Sigh

Enslaved

Derra wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I feel we´re getting to a workable solution.

What´s missing now is the previously mentioned feedback on cage (it should now deal dmg when it connects - not when the stun lasts its full duration).

Other minor tweaks that would be highly desireable could be:

- Boundless storm - cost reduction and maybe increase of the range to 7m (seriously why does this ability cost 4050 magica base when templar focus costs 1890 and dragonknights spiked armor 2700 - both unarguably way stronger)
- powersurge - make it heal for half the value when not critting (this would specifically benefit nonCP sorc)

maybe:

- convert part of dark conversions healing to a hot aswell (like the resource mechanic)
- bloodmagic make it heal on any sorcerer ability hitting a target - not only dark magic (excluding pets and petabilities as that would be overpowered)

Maybe because DK volatile does not proc implosion. Range is good as it is.

You realize i´m not talking about stamsorc do you?

This is about the 5m range boundless storm of magsorcs. If implosion from that skill is really a problem in your perception i don´t really what to say other than - they could patch it out of the game without compensation and magsorc wouldn´t notice a difference.
Bringing that up as a problem suggest you have no experience to comment on the topic whatsoever.

You play sorc and do not know shock damage can trigger implosion? Are you trolling?

Derra

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I feel we´re getting to a workable solution.

What´s missing now is the previously mentioned feedback on cage (it should now deal dmg when it connects - not when the stun lasts its full duration).

Other minor tweaks that would be highly desireable could be:

- Boundless storm - cost reduction and maybe increase of the range to 7m (seriously why does this ability cost 4050 magica base when templar focus costs 1890 and dragonknights spiked armor 2700 - both unarguably way stronger)
- powersurge - make it heal for half the value when not critting (this would specifically benefit nonCP sorc)

maybe:

- convert part of dark conversions healing to a hot aswell (like the resource mechanic)
- bloodmagic make it heal on any sorcerer ability hitting a target - not only dark magic (excluding pets and petabilities as that would be overpowered)

Maybe because DK volatile does not proc implosion. Range is good as it is.

You realize i´m not talking about stamsorc do you?

This is about the 5m range boundless storm of magsorcs. If implosion from that skill is really a problem in your perception i don´t really what to say other than - they could patch it out of the game without compensation and magsorc wouldn´t notice a difference.
Bringing that up as a problem suggest you have no experience to comment on the topic whatsoever.

You play sorc and do not know shock damage can trigger implosion? Are you trolling?

Read again what i wrote and this time try to understand it.

StamWhipCultist

Derra wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I feel we´re getting to a workable solution.

What´s missing now is the previously mentioned feedback on cage (it should now deal dmg when it connects - not when the stun lasts its full duration).

Other minor tweaks that would be highly desireable could be:

- Boundless storm - cost reduction and maybe increase of the range to 7m (seriously why does this ability cost 4050 magica base when templar focus costs 1890 and dragonknights spiked armor 2700 - both unarguably way stronger)
- powersurge - make it heal for half the value when not critting (this would specifically benefit nonCP sorc)

maybe:

- convert part of dark conversions healing to a hot aswell (like the resource mechanic)
- bloodmagic make it heal on any sorcerer ability hitting a target - not only dark magic (excluding pets and petabilities as that would be overpowered)

Maybe because DK volatile does not proc implosion. Range is good as it is.

You realize i´m not talking about stamsorc do you?

This is about the 5m range boundless storm of magsorcs. If implosion from that skill is really a problem in your perception i don´t really what to say other than - they could patch it out of the game without compensation and magsorc wouldn´t notice a difference.
Bringing that up as a problem suggest you have no experience to comment on the topic whatsoever.

You play sorc and do not know shock damage can trigger implosion? Are you trolling?

I´m saying that implosion on stormarmor is absolutely irrelevant for magsorc or stormarmor in it´s current state.
They could remove the passive and you wouldn´t notice a difference.

Learn to read.

I fail to see you logic? If there is any, that is.
Any stamina melee enemy will go after sorc, and while in combat in melee range boundless storm can proc implosion. I saw this in battlegrounds, Cyrodiil and in duels.

Enslaved

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I feel we´re getting to a workable solution.

What´s missing now is the previously mentioned feedback on cage (it should now deal dmg when it connects - not when the stun lasts its full duration).

Other minor tweaks that would be highly desireable could be:

- Boundless storm - cost reduction and maybe increase of the range to 7m (seriously why does this ability cost 4050 magica base when templar focus costs 1890 and dragonknights spiked armor 2700 - both unarguably way stronger)
- powersurge - make it heal for half the value when not critting (this would specifically benefit nonCP sorc)

maybe:

- convert part of dark conversions healing to a hot aswell (like the resource mechanic)
- bloodmagic make it heal on any sorcerer ability hitting a target - not only dark magic (excluding pets and petabilities as that would be overpowered)

Maybe because DK volatile does not proc implosion. Range is good as it is.

You realize i´m not talking about stamsorc do you?

This is about the 5m range boundless storm of magsorcs. If implosion from that skill is really a problem in your perception i don´t really what to say other than - they could patch it out of the game without compensation and magsorc wouldn´t notice a difference.
Bringing that up as a problem suggest you have no experience to comment on the topic whatsoever.

You play sorc and do not know shock damage can trigger implosion? Are you trolling?

I´m saying that implosion on stormarmor is absolutely irrelevant for magsorc or stormarmor in it´s current state.
They could remove the passive and you wouldn´t notice a difference.

Learn to read.

I fail to see you logic? If there is any, that is.
Any stamina melee enemy will go after sorc, and while in combat in melee range boundless storm can proc implosion. I saw this in battlegrounds, Cyrodiil and in duels.

This

Derra

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

StamWhipCultist wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I feel we´re getting to a workable solution.

What´s missing now is the previously mentioned feedback on cage (it should now deal dmg when it connects - not when the stun lasts its full duration).

Other minor tweaks that would be highly desireable could be:

- Boundless storm - cost reduction and maybe increase of the range to 7m (seriously why does this ability cost 4050 magica base when templar focus costs 1890 and dragonknights spiked armor 2700 - both unarguably way stronger)
- powersurge - make it heal for half the value when not critting (this would specifically benefit nonCP sorc)

maybe:

- convert part of dark conversions healing to a hot aswell (like the resource mechanic)
- bloodmagic make it heal on any sorcerer ability hitting a target - not only dark magic (excluding pets and petabilities as that would be overpowered)

Maybe because DK volatile does not proc implosion. Range is good as it is.

You realize i´m not talking about stamsorc do you?

This is about the 5m range boundless storm of magsorcs. If implosion from that skill is really a problem in your perception i don´t really what to say other than - they could patch it out of the game without compensation and magsorc wouldn´t notice a difference.
Bringing that up as a problem suggest you have no experience to comment on the topic whatsoever.

You play sorc and do not know shock damage can trigger implosion? Are you trolling?

I´m saying that implosion on stormarmor is absolutely irrelevant for magsorc or stormarmor in it´s current state.
They could remove the passive and you wouldn´t notice a difference.

Learn to read.

I fail to see you logic? If there is any, that is.
Any stamina melee enemy will go after sorc, and while in combat in melee range boundless storm can proc implosion. I saw this in battlegrounds, Cyrodiil and in duels.

First of - it no longer hits all melee opponents reliably.

Stamsorc with uppercut will stay out of range.
Templar can stay out of range with jabs.
DK can entirely stay out of its range.
This is why i suggested a range increase - it´s very apparently designed as a melee counter. Which it can´t do if melee opponents (some not all) can avoid getting hit by it.

Then implosion only proccs under 15% health.
Thinking that implosion got you killed in that scenario where you dropped this low against a class with a preapplied execute that triggers from 20% health is just deluding oneself into the thought that some passive luckchance killed you - not the mistakes you made before that got you in a situation to get hit by a 5m melee aoe sub 15% health from an entirely ranged class. No it was the nasty proccchance - for sure

Making the argument around this passive is not very smart - or should we bring in passive 12% healing taken for volatile into this?
Minor mending to templar focus?

But then i´m all with you - i think a passive rgn execute is garbage. Just like passive dodgechance is garbage. Imo it would be way better to let the passive increase shock and physical dmg on enemies below 15% health by a certain amount?
But this isn´t relevant to the discussion about boundless storm. It´s just a strawman.

StamWhipCultist

What you suggest is boost of a skill that would provide passive execute. range is fine.

Derra

Yeh see - this is why you don´t get a stamwhip.

You´re not engaging into a meaningfull discussion. You just post oneliners and expect people to take you seriously.

StamWhipCultist

Derra wrote: »

Yeh see - this is why you don´t get a stamwhip.

You´re not engaging into a meaningfull discussion. You just post oneliners and expect people to take you seriously.

for you, meaningfull is to have 3 instant 20k shields, and now that is no more, a 28 meter or so contsnt damage field that can proc passive execute would suffice.

Derra

Atleast i´d be able to write an elaborate argument around that - i guess.