@DDuke.
Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.
For Rune Cage to be dodgeable, like mentioned in ESO Live.
Removing damage from it doesn't matter when that damage removal can be negated by set choices (e.g. Balorgh and any future set they might add for burst) to still guarantee instagibs on non-tank builds.
In fact, they should keep the damage if they make it dodgeable so sorcs have a good tool against tank builds that require the extra sustained dps.
In the eso live they said they wanted it to be more " telegraphed" and allow players to dodge it if they react fast enough. I'm right ?
Well, let's compare Reach and rune cage now :
Rune cage ~ 41 meters ~ 2984 magicka : Inprison an enemy in a sphere of dark magic, stunning them for 5 seconds. Deals 6386 Magic Damage if the stun lasts the full duration (= 0 damage). This stun cannot be blocked but can be dodged.
Reach ~ 41 meters ~ 3232 magicka : Devastate an enemy with an enhanced charge from your staff dealing 6 190 " flame " damage and an additional 8610 "flame" damage over 8 seconds. Also knocks enemy back 5 meters.
Rune cage:
- Rune cage give you 12% of your max Health back ( Blood Magic)
- Give Minor prophecy, but not important since we get it with frag.
- Would be dodgeable. = 0 damage from rune cage
- Unblockable/Unreflectable = 0 damage from rune cage
- Cost 248 less magicka than Reach
- Allow a la-comet/la-rune cage/la-frag/curse proc/fury proc combo.
Reach:
- Reach can be spammed like FP
- You can use reach instead Force pulse = 1 free slot
- Reach can proc Burning effect
- Reach require a destruction staff, but not important since we do need to use a destruction staff on magsorc.
- Reach is blockable ( like FP) but you still take some damage from it even if you block ( + the dot, but not important if you spam it cause it will refresh the dot )
- Reach can be avoided (Like FP) and reflected. = 0 damage from reach.
- Except if you are melee, I believe the target will block when you use a comet on them. it mean it does not allow the same combo, tell me if i'm wrong and which combo it allow, I have not used it for a long time.
- knocks enemy back 5 meters, extremely useful near lava/void or against a target in height ( on the ramparts)
- Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage
Keep it mind that Rune cage is a class skill and should be better than Reach or at least interesting in more scenario.
Let's compare the most important point now:
- Rune cage allow a burst combo ( see above ) because it is unblockable ( because most target will block when they see they are going to be hit by a meteor )
- Reach can be used instead Force pulse ( =1 free slot) and can CC/knocks target back 5 meters + Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage
It's not that bad, I would still use Rune cage even if they make it dodgable, then CC with streak the target who constantly dodge.
You said they should keep the damage if they make it dodgable, do you mean it should deal damage if the target break free like the current version ?
@Apherius
If you factor in that Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage it’s overall better. That’s why must people were running it before Summerset.
@Apherius
If you factor in that Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage it’s overall better. That’s why must people were running it before Summerset.
...and have you factored in that by slotting Reach you can't go 5/5/2, meaning all your other burst deals less damage?
Master Staff isn't bad, but it does come at a cost after the Summerset 2H changes.
@DDuke.
Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.
He wants to be able to dodge everything. He doesn't actually care about Rune Cage being balanced; he only cares that it's "balanced" for his preferred playstyle.
@Apherius
If you factor in that Reach cost goes down to around 2.1k magicka with a Master Staff and adds another 2k damage it’s overall better. That’s why must people were running it before Summerset.
...and have you factored in that by slotting Reach you can't go 5/5/2, meaning all your other burst deals less damage?
Master Staff isn't bad, but it does come at a cost after the Summerset 2H changes.
Well, You can go 5/5/2 with master destro.
2 monster set piece ( engine guardian or 2*1 pc max magicka )
5 Shackelbreaker/Amberplasm.
3 lich jewelry.
1 (=2 pc) lich resto staff
1 master destro OR willpower staff.
Yes, Streak has multiple uses (can disrupt combos as well). Thanks for reinforcing my point about it being a good CC vs dodge rollers.
Sneak & Surprise Attack CC actually require some skill to land similar to Streak, and Fear... well, haven't used it (the Mass Hysteria morph - Trap morph I've played around with) in years because it's meh vs good players who CC break fast & avoid follow-up.
You are biased because u treat similar scenarios in a different way just to make a point, u are trying to balance the game around you and on top of that u tell people that doesnt agree with you to l2p.How exactly am I biased (I have stam/magicka builds of each class I make builds for)? Or is that just a word you like to throw around?
Only bias I'll admit having is against the "meta". I hate meta and always look at things in "what would increase build diversity" kind of way.
I don't think it's a big secret that Rune Cage is the most broken thing in the game right now and I don't think pointing out that removing the damage doesn't really fix the issue is "bias" in any way, shape or form.
Especially when I can back that assertion with math and other facts.
This is why you come off as bias. Whether intentional or due to adversarial expectations you omit/misread posts and respond as if I said something else. I said I put 2 health glyphs on my stamblade and you equated that as me stacking health on a magsorc. I did miscount the GCD's but you didn't point that out because you didn't actually read what I posted. You read what you wanted to.
Including Fury, that's 5 skills, 5 GCDs, 5 seconds. So you're getting a full Vigor during this. We'll remove all but 1 light attacks since I don't want to do the math of Vigor v LA:
total tooltip damage without Meteor is:
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Well assume Fury=4 000
Total Tooltip damage: 36 883
36 883-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=15 102 damage
That puts you just under 25%. Assuming you know that burst is coming, you're going to pop another vigor around the same time you are tagged with Curse so you'll be getting 1.5 seconds of Vigor. But just add that single 1.5k tick and look. Not in execute range. Pop vigor one more time and Rally and you're back to full health assuming you do more than stand there and take it.
Anyway, I agree that they shouldn't remove the damage from Cage (precisely because of those tank builds), but they should make it dodgeable.
Win-win, sorcs get to keep damage to deal with tanks & builds that rely on dodge roll can still actually use their main defensive mechanic to survive.
This is why you come off as bias. Whether intentional or due to adversarial expectations you omit/misread posts and respond as if I said something else. I said I put 2 health glyphs on my stamblade and you equated that as me stacking health on a magsorc. I did miscount the GCD's but you didn't point that out because you didn't actually read what I posted. You read what you wanted to.
Including Fury, that's 5 skills, 5 GCDs, 5 seconds. So you're getting a full Vigor during this. We'll remove all but 1 light attacks since I don't want to do the math of Vigor v LA:
total tooltip damage without Meteor is:
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Well assume Fury=4 000
Total Tooltip damage: 36 883
36 883-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=15 102 damage
That puts you just under 25%. Assuming you know that burst is coming, you're going to pop another vigor around the same time you are tagged with Curse so you'll be getting 1.5 seconds of Vigor. But just add that single 1.5k tick and look. Not in execute range. Pop vigor one more time and Rally and you're back to full health assuming you do more than stand there and take it.Anyway, I agree that they shouldn't remove the damage from Cage (precisely because of those tank builds), but they should make it dodgeable.
Win-win, sorcs get to keep damage to deal with tanks & builds that rely on dodge roll can still actually use their main defensive mechanic to survive.
Keeping the damage on Cage is still more dangerous. If I manage to CC your build with the damage on cage, it's still a guaranteed kill. The moment I curse it will force a roll dodge and I can re-Curse far more than you can roll dodge. The complaints of instant burst will still be there if the damage stays on Cage because while it may happen slightly less often, it will still happen. People don't care that they get CC'd. They care that they end up dying while being CC'd which a dodgeable Rune won't fix. And if Cage neither goes through dodge or deals damage, it's simply useless skill.
Damageless cage is the middle ground between ideal and overpowered. The damage of the sorc burst without Rune damage won't kill majority of players from full health, it takes up a GCD and a bar slot. There's actual choice between guaranteed damage and killing damage.
While I haven't played damageless Rune in SS, I have performed the combo without casting Rune--they're CC immune. The damage doesn't kill the average player on live, yes even in medium. I don't have the numbers to present to you, but I do have actual experience with the class in open world PvP and BGs. I run a balanced build-->Spinner (hence magelight>drain)+Lich+2pc willpower with either Infernal or Engine Guardian. From actual combat experience the majority of medium builds can survive the basic Curse-Fury-Frag.
Your build cannot be used as a baseline. You yourself claim it is a stealth build which implies you trade static survivability (whats the correct term in ESO? I want to say effective health but it's not used in these forums) but compensate by relying on stealth.
By definition, you cannot claim your build to be the baseline in the same way you cannot claim tanks to be baseline. Both will lean slightly towards too much health or too little.
If anything, stamblade needs a nerf to Cloak to allow for a defensive buff across the board. Instead of asking for a nerf to a single skill that takes a class from OP to medioce (slightly below balanced) ask for buffs to improve the overall health of your class. Without the damage from Rune, I'm not going to be able to kill anyone of the same skill level.
Yes, Streak has multiple uses (can disrupt combos as well). Thanks for reinforcing my point about it being a good CC vs dodge rollers.
Exactly, against you. You somehow believe that everything is balanced around you and how you play. Frag cc is a reliable offensive cc in terms of allowing you to land ur combo if u play correctly and land it. Reliable does not equal guaranteed.
Look at ur fight against the sorc. Even in the best case scenario for streak which is against a NB meaning an actually guaranteed cc the sorc manged to land a combo after a streak just once when u didnt cc break and the combo came in 2 seconds after u got cced. In every other streak cc he was barely managing to get one ability off before u were up. In most cases you were up before he even turned around. This is simply how streak works. It doesnt last long enough to give you time to turn around and get a good combo on ur opponent. Its simply impossible to turn around and cast more than one ability in 1.5 second. Aka its not a reliable offensive cc allowing you to land ur combo.
Now go and look at ur fight again and how the sorc is actually using streak against you. Besides the obvious reason to keep you out of cloak, every single time you pressure him he is streaking through you. He is not doing it offensively to land a combo. He is doing it to disrupt you because he cant take ur dmg which gives him time to get his shields up and buff up. Its an instinctive defensive move by every good sorc. A bad sorc would just stay there try to shieldstack the dmg run out of magicka and die.
And that fight is again, the best case scenario for streak to be used offensively. There are fights when streak is literally useless offensively because of how it operates. Frag isnt, if you land it you get ur combo. Simple as that. I explained it in detail. If you still dont get it, i cant help you.
Sneak & Surprise Attack CC actually require some skill to land similar to Streak, and Fear... well, haven't used it (the Mass Hysteria morph - Trap morph I've played around with) in years because it's meh vs good players who CC break fast & avoid follow-up.
I dont give a flying *** about how much skill they require. This isnt about skill. This is about offensive stuns allowing you to land ur combos. According to you a very high burst class shouldnt have them. Burn them all. The only one you are allowed to have is the fear trap. And im being generous with that cause that one still helps land ur combo. Maybe make it to only work if u are facing the other way. That'd be balanced.
Kinda ironic tho, calling fear meh because people cc break fast and avoid follow up but when it comes its perfect and its all about sorc's l2p issues. Imagine if it lasted 1.5 seconds, had a delayed animation with a "self root" and then you still had to turn around before you attack. Trololol.
You are biased because u treat similar scenarios in a different way just to make a point, u are trying to balance the game around you and on top of that u tell people that doesnt agree with you to l2p.How exactly am I biased (I have stam/magicka builds of each class I make builds for)? Or is that just a word you like to throw around?
Only bias I'll admit having is against the "meta". I hate meta and always look at things in "what would increase build diversity" kind of way.
I don't think it's a big secret that Rune Cage is the most broken thing in the game right now and I don't think pointing out that removing the damage doesn't really fix the issue is "bias" in any way, shape or form.
Especially when I can back that assertion with math and other facts.
When it comes to you, things can be difficult cause u are in open world and its a chaotic fight etc but when it comes to sorcs nooooooooo, god forbid if sorcs play in outnumbered chaotic fights. Every single one of them is a zergling, immune to any dmg or cc attacking unsuspected targets, they all use the build you theorycrafted (which is bad in open world) with 30k shields and those shields are always up somehow. Fear is meh cause they break free and u cant follow up but streak is perfect and you have l2p issues if u cant use it. Yeah, not biased at all.
No its not a big secret that rune cage is broken. Whats is also not a secret is that people are not arguing with you cause they like rune cage. You are the only that is yet to figure that out.
First off, it's not about me - it's about dodge roll builds in general. Frag wasn't a "reliable CC" against those and that's exactly why it was balanced.
Also if you look at what I said about fear, I mentioned it's meh against good players. It's still very good vs average players who take their time CC breaking & eat all the burst, which is why many NBs run it.
So what, I should start crying about Shield Breaker and what not?
@DDuke TL;DR: All you need to say is this:No class should have access to both an unblockable and undodgable CC and unblockable and undodgable damage as it severely limits counterplay.
To which the magsorc reply will be:Take Rune Cage away, but give us something to compensate for the frag nerf that resulted in a loss of damage, bar space and a GCD because without it sorcs don't have competitive pressure or burst.
That's it. Keep the rest to yourself because it's all a biased perspective.
This is why you come off as bias. Whether intentional or due to adversarial expectations you omit/misread posts and respond as if I said something else. I said I put 2 health glyphs on my stamblade and you equated that as me stacking health on a magsorc. I did miscount the GCD's but you didn't point that out because you didn't actually read what I posted. You read what you wanted to.
Including Fury, that's 5 skills, 5 GCDs, 5 seconds. So you're getting a full Vigor during this. We'll remove all but 1 light attacks since I don't want to do the math of Vigor v LA:
total tooltip damage without Meteor is:
Shock Glyph 2534+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge]+5%[Energized])=2964
Rune Cage 0 (for the sake of the argument)
Light Attack 3565+(4%[Altmer Passive]+8%[Ancient Knowledge])=3992
Frag 12 260+(8%[Ancient Knowledge]+10%[Frag Proc])=14 466
Curse 10574+8%(Ancient Knowledge)=11 419
Well assume Fury=4 000
Total Tooltip damage: 36 883
36 883-(50%[Battle Spirit]*8,112%[17634-12 264])=15 102 damage
That puts you just under 25%. Assuming you know that burst is coming, you're going to pop another vigor around the same time you are tagged with Curse so you'll be getting 1.5 seconds of Vigor. But just add that single 1.5k tick and look. Not in execute range. Pop vigor one more time and Rally and you're back to full health assuming you do more than stand there and take it.
Anyway, I agree that they shouldn't remove the damage from Cage (precisely because of those tank builds), but they should make it dodgeable.
Win-win, sorcs get to keep damage to deal with tanks & builds that rely on dodge roll can still actually use their main defensive mechanic to survive.
Keeping the damage on Cage is still more dangerous. If I manage to CC your build with the damage on cage, it's still a guaranteed kill. The moment I curse it will force a roll dodge and I can re-Curse far more than you can roll dodge. The complaints of instant burst will still be there if the damage stays on Cage because while it may happen slightly less often, it will still happen. People don't care that they get CC'd. They care that they end up dying while being CC'd which a dodgeable Rune won't fix. And if Cage neither goes through dodge or deals damage, it's simply useless skill.
Damageless cage is the middle ground between ideal and overpowered. The damage of the sorc burst without Rune damage won't kill majority of players from full health, it takes up a GCD and a bar slot. There's actual choice between guaranteed damage and killing damage.
While I haven't played damageless Rune in SS, I have performed the combo without casting Rune--they're CC immune. The damage doesn't kill the average player on live, yes even in medium. I don't have the numbers to present to you, but I do have actual experience with the class in open world PvP and BGs. I run a balanced build-->Spinner (hence magelight>drain)+Lich+2pc willpower with either Infernal or Engine Guardian. From actual combat experience the majority of medium builds can survive the basic Curse-Fury-Frag.
Your build cannot be used as a baseline. You yourself claim it is a stealth build which implies you trade static survivability (whats the correct term in ESO? I want to say effective health but it's not used in these forums) but compensate by relying on stealth.
By definition, you cannot claim your build to be the baseline in the same way you cannot claim tanks to be baseline. Both will lean slightly towards too much health or too little.
If anything, stamblade needs a nerf to Cloak to allow for a defensive buff across the board. Instead of asking for a nerf to a single skill that takes a class from OP to medioce (slightly below balanced) ask for buffs to improve the overall health of your class. Without the damage from Rune, I'm not going to be able to kill anyone of the same skill level.
First off, it's not about me - it's about dodge roll builds in general. Frag wasn't a "reliable CC" against those and that's exactly why it was balanced.
Yes it was reliable offensively. I explained what i meant by that, go back and read it. Reliable not in terms of always landing it but in terms of being able to rely on it to land a combo if you play good and manage to land the skill of course.
Streak doesnt work like that. Even if ur opponents dont break you still cant rely on it offensively to land ur combos. Not sure how much more simple do u want me to make it for you. Its really not that hard of a concept.
Also if you look at what I said about fear, I mentioned it's meh against good players. It's still very good vs average players who take their time CC breaking & eat all the burst, which is why many NBs run it.
And if you look at streak its meh if not bad against any type of player if ur intention is to land a good combo. They dont need to cc break it early. The cc itself breaks early for you.
Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.
Just that it will now cost 500 ulti and no longer work on rotations without ulti.
I don´t think it´ll be more so than before - atleast when looking at the frequency that it happens.
That being said - yeh can we just remove offensive cage? Make defensive rune tha base morph - one deals dmg one gives a debuff for morphs.
Bring back fragment CC.
Offensive cage isn´t balanceable.
Ragnaroek93 wrote: »
Needless to say, that's more than Rune Cage hits for on Live so people will still get one shot by uncounterable sorc burst - even more so than before.
Just that it will now cost 500 ulti and no longer work on rotations without ulti.
I don´t think it´ll be more so than before - atleast when looking at the frequency that it happens.
That being said - yeh can we just remove offensive cage? Make defensive rune tha base morph - one deals dmg one gives a debuff for morphs.
Bring back fragment CC.
Offensive cage isn´t balanceable.
I like that idea but defensive Runecage should be able to stun more than one person, maybe three different persons and should last 8 seconds (since the stun is also consumed by pets which have stun imunity...).
You seem knowledgeable. Do you think the recent changes to rune cage will help? Will it reduce the volume of sorcs? Will sorcs ACTUALLY go back to reach? I just want to know that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks
Sorc volume will probably drop to just above Dragon Bone levels. They will still be strong in group scenarios but their individual potential will drop significantly. Ideally Cage should be changed to a utility skill and frags should regain CC and more damage but I doubt that will happen this patch.Will it reduce the volume of sorcs?
Cage was actually a viable alternative to Clench last patch. It simply wasn't popular because the masses had almost no exposure to it and for the OG sorcs it feels very clunky compared to CC on frags or Clench.Will sorcs ACTUALLY go back to reach?
@DDuke.
Could you just tell us what you purpose for sorc ? Then we could talk about that, It's your 23rd comment on this thread and I still don't understand what you want.
He wants to be able to dodge everything. He doesn't actually care about Rune Cage being balanced; he only cares that it's "balanced" for his preferred playstyle.
He wants people to win against others because they were the superior player rather than being carried by OP abilities. What a strange one he is.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
I don't want health, I don't want mitigation - I want a build based on evading damage, not tanking it and if I'm quick enough reacting I should be able to avoid atleast the biggest burst in the entire game, not have it land on me guaranteed.
No as a Magsorc I do not invest into health because if my Health pool gets touched without a shield absorbing some of the damage I'm dead anyways. What I do invest in is Stamina Regen. Do I need to invest in Stamina Regen on a mSorc to survive? Yes. Do I? Yes.
Well let me ask you a question: do you need to put even 2 health glyphs on a mSorc to survive? Would you?
Ponder on that for a second.
Also you miscounted a whole lot more than just the GCDs, but I didn't feel like correcting it last time. I could go into detail, but the main point is this: you don't get full Vigor during that 1-2 GCD it takes for literally all of Sorc burst to go off.
That's why dmg shields are so much better defensive mechanic than dodge roll: they let you survive *** like that by making a pre-emptive move.
But that doesn't address the problem of instant burst and no it's not outplaying my opponent. In effect it's still a hard counter to all medium builds-not just roll dodgers-because if I land the combo, you're dead from 100-0 anyways. THAT's the problem. You can CC me all day but if I don't die then it's a non-issue. Damage on Cage guarantees a 100-0 kill, damgeless cage does not.
I highlighted the word that makes that balanced and ideal. If you manage to CC a dodge roller when you go for burst.
Currently the word we're using isn't "if", it's "when" - and that's what makes Cage so broken and why it requires zero skill to use and no amount of skill lets you avoid it.
If you CC someone with a dodgeable ability, you played better than they did - simple as that. And that's when you deserve a kill on a dodge roller.
So this is what I don't get: sorcs have the highest burst in the game even without Cage damage, but somehow it's not enough to kill majority of players?
I kill majority of players with my dodgeable/blockable bow burst, and that's about half the damage of a RC Meteor combo.
On live I don't struggle because RUNE DEALS DAMAGE. Take the Rune damage of your calculations because nobody wants the live version. This whole discussion is about how sorc burst fairs without Cage damage. Damageless undodgable Rune is more balanced than a dodgeable Rune with Damage. IF I hit you with a full combo, even without meteor, you are dead if Rune has damage even at 100% health. Same can't be said for damageless Rune. Damageless Rune would require a sorc apply some pressure prior to killing burst, meaning my opponent has to stay above a certain health threshold....so I'm really struggling to understand why you'd fail to burst most dodge roll builds out there (even on a low'ish dmg build). Maybe those players have Impreg/Brass slotted? Wouldn't surprise me if majority moved on to the tank meta already. I can tell when I hit one of those with a Lethal Arrow...
I hope you realize my build has to rely on sneak for one reason only: Rune Cage (and well, Sloads - but that is getting fixed).
If I'm outside stealth, I can get instagibbed at any moment by a sorc 40m away without nothing I can do about it.
Right, stamblade needs a nerf to cloak.
You are aware that a cloak costs 45,6% of a stamblade's entire stamina pool & it takes 12,6 seconds to regenerate magicka for one cloak in noCP? And that every class apart from mag warden & mDK (without Overwhelming/Sload slotted) can deal with it?
I don't want health, I don't want mitigation - I want a build based on evading damage, not tanking it and if I'm quick enough reacting I should be able to avoid atleast the biggest burst in the entire game, not have it land on me guaranteed.
I don't want health, I don't want mitigation - I want a build based on evading damage, not tanking it and if I'm quick enough reacting I should be able to avoid atleast the biggest burst in the entire game, not have it land on me guaranteed.
So because you want that the whole game has to cater to you?
No as a Magsorc I do not invest into health because if my Health pool gets touched without a shield absorbing some of the damage I'm dead anyways. What I do invest in is Stamina Regen. Do I need to invest in Stamina Regen on a mSorc to survive? Yes. Do I? Yes.
Well let me ask you a question: do you need to put even 2 health glyphs on a mSorc to survive? Would you?
Ponder on that for a second.
Also you miscounted a whole lot more than just the GCDs, but I didn't feel like correcting it last time. I could go into detail, but the main point is this: you don't get full Vigor during that 1-2 GCD it takes for literally all of Sorc burst to go off.
That's why dmg shields are so much better defensive mechanic than dodge roll: they let you survive *** like that by making a pre-emptive move.
And again you neglected the part where the example was without meteor. Twice. I can admit my mistakes but apparently you cannot. The whole point of bringing up Vigor was to negate the light attacks prior to the burst hitting, which means that the target is mots likely at full health.
But that doesn't address the problem of instant burst and no it's not outplaying my opponent. In effect it's still a hard counter to all medium builds-not just roll dodgers-because if I land the combo, you're dead from 100-0 anyways. THAT's the problem. You can CC me all day but if I don't die then it's a non-issue. Damage on Cage guarantees a 100-0 kill, damgeless cage does not.I highlighted the word that makes that balanced and ideal. If you manage to CC a dodge roller when you go for burst.
Currently the word we're using isn't "if", it's "when" - and that's what makes Cage so broken and why it requires zero skill to use and no amount of skill lets you avoid it.
If you CC someone with a dodgeable ability, you played better than they did - simple as that. And that's when you deserve a kill on a dodge roller.
The next step would be to remove the damage from cage, but if you need to time a damageless cage to hit with frags, you may as well just hit with frags an exclude Cage entirely.
So this is what I don't get: sorcs have the highest burst in the game even without Cage damage, but somehow it's not enough to kill majority of players?
I kill majority of players with my dodgeable/blockable bow burst, and that's about half the damage of a RC Meteor combo.
Ok so now you're comparing an ulti-less burst to a Meteor burst....so I'm really struggling to understand why you'd fail to burst most dodge roll builds out there (even on a low'ish dmg build). Maybe those players have Impreg/Brass slotted? Wouldn't surprise me if majority moved on to the tank meta already. I can tell when I hit one of those with a Lethal Arrow...
On live I don't struggle because RUNE DEALS DAMAGE. Take the Rune damage of your calculations because nobody wants the live version. This whole discussion is about how sorc burst fairs without Cage damage. Damageless undodgable Rune is more balanced than a dodgeable Rune with Damage. IF I hit you with a full combo, even without meteor, you are dead if Rune has damage even at 100% health. Same can't be said for damageless Rune. Damageless Rune would require a sorc apply some pressure prior to killing burst, meaning my opponent has to stay above a certain health threshold.
- THATs the sorc playstyle. Not IF I hit you, you're dead but IF you don't respect my burst, you're dead.
I hope you realize my build has to rely on sneak for one reason only: Rune Cage (and well, Sloads - but that is getting fixed).
If I'm outside stealth, I can get instagibbed at any moment by a sorc 40m away without nothing I can do about it.
Actually the average player can slot 2 health glyphs. And you were running a stealth build prior to the Cage meta. We've actually had this discussion before during the last PTS but you were far more palpable because your specific build wasn't what you revolved your argument around.
Right, stamblade needs a nerf to cloak.
You are aware that a cloak costs 45,6% of a stamblade's entire stamina pool & it takes 12,6 seconds to regenerate magicka for one cloak in noCP? And that every class apart from mag warden & mDK (without Overwhelming/Sload slotted) can deal with it?
No, you're build cannot spam Cloak. I used to have no trouble spamming it by using tri-pots and/or running Jewels of Misrule while still being able to instantly burst any build below 26k with nothing more than a Bow heavy, Incap, (sometimes medium weave) and Execute. No Viper and I used 1 kragh and 1 kena. I've fought stamblades that Cloak more than I shield. Some stamblades don't do anything more than Cloak->Ambush->Incap->Execute, a playstyle that only works because of Cloak spam (I mean this literally, No medium weaves, SA etc. Just bow LA until they have ultimate).You're build and play style is not the only one that exists.
I don't want health, I don't want mitigation - I want a build based on evading damage, not tanking it and if I'm quick enough reacting I should be able to avoid atleast the biggest burst in the entire game, not have it land on me guaranteed.
So because you don't want to adjust your build ever so slightly the whole game has to accommodate you? Why do you even have 20k health than? Just run Lava-Foot Soup or a Max Stamina Food and forgo any defense all together.
Put 2 health glyphs on and you'll be fine. Don't complain about 800 tooltip damage when sorcs are losing 8k and most sorc mains are still asking for the skill to just be removed. But if it is to stay it may as well be worth the bar slot since the lost damage is not being compensated in anyways. Dropping block and doing nothing else isn't worth the slot and dropping a build from 100-0 is not ok either.
Damageless but Unblockable/undodgable Rune is far more balanced than Damage/Unblockable Cage across the board. The only draw back is that it will instakill dodge roll builds that refuse to invest even the tiniest bit into defence.
If you think slotting 2 health glyphs is hopping on the tank meta what do you call a Heavy DK in Impregnable-Barksin-Bloodspawn? Blue Road Keep?
While I haven't played damageless Rune in SS, I have performed the combo without casting Rune--they're CC immune. The damage doesn't kill the average player on live, yes even in medium. I don't have the numbers to present to you, but I do have actual experience with the class in open world PvP and BGs. I run a balanced build-->Spinner (hence magelight>drain)+Lich+2pc willpower with either Infernal or Engine Guardian. From actual combat experience the majority of medium builds can survive the basic Curse-Fury-Frag.
Right, so with your gear you get:
10 262 Curse
3587 Light Attack
2964 Shock Glyph
6094 Rune Cage
3587 Light Attack
13 304 Frag
39 798 "tooltip burst" in noCP+50% Crit Modifier=59 697
+Fury
...and my bow build that currently instagibs any dodge roller without tank sets:
6767 Bombard
4141 Light Attack
23 216 Lethal Arrow
4141 Light Attack
7038 Bombard
+possibly Poison Dmg/Defile/Vulnerability poison
45 303 "tooltip burst" in noCP+70% Crit Modifier=77 015
My penetration: 100
Your Spinner sorc's penetration: 8434
Target with 16 479 resistances (Medium+Major Ward/Resolve) would then take:
59 697->26 221 dmg
77 015->28 980 dmg
@DDuke
Guess I lied I can't stay out...
You're missing something in your calculations. Just considering frags in that equation... You have them hitting a player for 10,000 of that 26k against 16k resistance....
That's just nooooot happening in game. If it were no MagSorc would ever be in this forums talking about ways to improve the class.
I have 51k magicka and 2500 spell damage with 3500 penetration from spinner and I'm not getting anywhere near 10k frags. Against a medium armor player I'll hit a 7500 damage crit frag with peak buffs up but more times than not 6-7k crits.
In fact in a perfect burst setup on live on a Max damage build I'll hit 1.5k light, 5k curse, 7k frag, 2-3k rune cage, 1.5k light for around 18k damage + fury. Throw in a 8-9k meteor and yeah I'll kill just about anything that stands, but I'm also using an ultimate. Take away that 3k from rune cage and the opponent is no longer in execute range and laughs off the entire burst. That's what any decent MagSorc actually cares about. Make it harder to land my burst by all means, but when I land my burst at least let it freaking work.
THESE ARE REALISTIC NUMBERS against competent opponents. From a MagSorc who has been playing a MAX damage build for the entire existence of MagSorcs.
I'll agree with you that RC needs to have a counter, Dodge or range are two big ones in my opinion, but you are spouting these insane damage numbers that really aren't realistic, and acting as if it's that is actually happening in Cryodiil which it's not. Maybe against potatoes, but every class is killing potatoes with ease
Both of those are melee, and have a lot less burst than a sorc. And in the case of DK specifically, the burst they do have is highly sacrificial.
...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.
...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.
Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.
...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.
Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.
Oh, this should be fun.
Such as?
...and when I present some facts to prove all those notions wrong, I get ignored and people repeat the same bogus claims again. There really is only one response to that.
Pretty rich coming from a guy who ignores facts about sorcs that he got wrong, just because they don't fit his agenda.
Oh, this should be fun.
Such as?
Necro/Destruction/Slime being a viable build?
So they undo the thing they did that triggered everyone, and yet everyone is triggered again.
Lol
Oh yeah, hold on... was that when you wanted ZOS to buff Meteor's damage (because apparently it doesn't one shot enough ppl with Rune Cage)?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/404457/buff-meteor-in-response-to-empower-change
What mistake? I only counted the light attacks that land during the CC (i.e. within 1-2GCD), not ones before.
"Health before the instagib burst hardly matters unless you're fighting a tank"