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PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes
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Thecompton73✭✭✭✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Sorcerer does have instant cast burst heals, they just need to protect their pet,
Yeah, no. The pet has such little health that it constantly dies, not to mention the extremely poor AI that causes it to constantly run off and die. Also, there is the fact that the pet is a considerably liability with its "ability" to explode in a plaguebreak bomb, which, since it has so little health, it will do. Then, you can get stun-locked while you have to resummon it. And, on top of all that, the heal isn't even guaranteed to hit you.
I don't consider a flying plaguebreak bomb that's just likely to get you killed as it is to actually heal you to be a reasonable, comparable, burst heal.
Pet commands on console are…- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press LT to call your pets back to you.
- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press RT to have your pet attack a ranged target.
- Heavy attack a target to have your pet switch to that one.
The Twilight Matriarch is the best burst heal in the game in group play as it hits two targets for full value without having to monitor where the players being healed are, similar to how Breath of Life worked, prior to it being deleted from the game.
People hear me call Honor the Dead “Breath of Life” and say, what is that?
Ahaha
The only burst heal in the game you have to expend resources on to keep it alive to even heal you in the first place.
Plus now Stam Sorcs not only need to double bar the burst heal but they also need to clear another skill spot for a shield so they can try to keep it active for when they need it?
Stam Sorcs have access to Rally, last I checked that ability still functions? Or you could throw on a Restoration Staff if you want more restoration, there’s always Combat Prayer.
Oh yeah, Rally is amazing and hits harder than any other burst heal in the game, if it's been active for 15 seconds already. If you're taking lots of incoming damage and need to cast it more than once the second and third consecutive casts are going to crit for 5K if you're lucky, if it doesn't your "burst" heal is 3K a cast. Plus that locks Stam Sorcs into 2H while every other stam spec can choose DW. Play as you want unless you're a stam sorc I guess?
Oh then of course there's the option to slot a resto staff and spend 25% more resources to get 25% less healing back than a NB gets from healthy offering? Seriously go look at the tooltips and tell me with a straight face that Combat Prayer is in any way comparable to any of the class based burst heals.Edited by Thecompton73 on February 22, 2023 9:13PM2 -
virtus753✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭In addition to taking feedback to the team about Sorc, we also took your feedback to the team regarding the state of Templars. We want to follow up on how the team uses feedback to inform combat and balance changes.
The combat team is always looking at data from various points of play (PvE, PvP, low-end to high-end damage parse, group content and solo play, etc.) and collective feedback across the board to make informed balanced adjustments. Many of the previous adjustments to Templar were directly made off of those points.
While there are no planned changes for Templar in U37, outside of anything already highlighted in patch notes, we're evaluating everchanging data and will continue to adjust around issues when they arise. Your continued feedback will be apart of that process.
Thank you for the update, as devastating as it is to hear that the devs do not think anything regarding Templar class design warrants a change.
In the meantime, can we please get some clarification or feedback on the actual, demonstrable, inarguable bugs with the class?
It is getting very tedious to see corpses lit up everywhere that we cannot use Repentance on. It is highly distracting and can cause us to try to use a skill we can't use; it also causes confusion when the bodies are lit up but the button for the skill is not. As a templar main for over five and a half years, I realize this is a bug, and it's still distracting to me. I can't imagine how confusing it must be to new players.
This has been reported many times on live and on PTS. Nothing has been acknowledged or done. It's been months and months now. Can we please get at least the objective technical issues handled, especially since it seems it will take some time for the devs to realize what a bad state the class is in design-wise?
ETA: This is also not a new bug, so they've had it and fixed it before. Recurring bugs is an enormous problem.Edited by virtus753 on February 22, 2023 9:10PM5 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Sorcerer does have instant cast burst heals, they just need to protect their pet,
Yeah, no. The pet has such little health that it constantly dies, not to mention the extremely poor AI that causes it to constantly run off and die. Also, there is the fact that the pet is a considerably liability with its "ability" to explode in a plaguebreak bomb, which, since it has so little health, it will do. Then, you can get stun-locked while you have to resummon it. And, on top of all that, the heal isn't even guaranteed to hit you.
I don't consider a flying plaguebreak bomb that's just likely to get you killed as it is to actually heal you to be a reasonable, comparable, burst heal.
Pet commands on console are…- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press LT to call your pets back to you.
- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press RT to have your pet attack a ranged target.
- Heavy attack a target to have your pet switch to that one.
The Twilight Matriarch is the best burst heal in the game in group play as it hits two targets for full value without having to monitor where the players being healed are, similar to how Breath of Life worked, prior to it being deleted from the game.
People hear me call Honor the Dead “Breath of Life” and say, what is that?
Ahaha
The only burst heal in the game you have to expend resources on to keep it alive to even heal you in the first place.
Plus now Stam Sorcs not only need to double bar the burst heal but they also need to clear another skill spot for a shield so they can try to keep it active for when they need it?
Stam Sorcs have access to Rally, last I checked that ability still functions? Or you could throw on a Restoration Staff if you want more restoration, there’s always Combat Prayer.
Oh yeah, Rally is amazing and hits harder than any other burst heal in the game, if it's been active for 15 seconds already. If you're taking lots of incoming damage and need to cast it more than once the second and third consecutive casts are going to crit for 5K if you're lucky, if it doesn't your "burst" heal is 3K a cast. Plus that locks Stam Sorcs into 2H while every other stam spec can choose DW. Play as you want unless you're a stam sorc I guess?
Stamina Sorcerer is in the best spot out of every Stamina class, hybridization did them wonders.
Advocating for StamSorc buffs when StamCro, StamPlar, StamBlade, and StamDen need much more attention, makes quite literally no sense.
Edit; Also, to your comment about Combat Prayer, if that ability is underperforming as a burst heal, you should be advocating for a selfish morph, as one morph of the ability gets zero playtime.Edited by The_Titan_Tim on February 22, 2023 9:15PM0 -
Thecompton73✭✭✭✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Sorcerer does have instant cast burst heals, they just need to protect their pet,
Yeah, no. The pet has such little health that it constantly dies, not to mention the extremely poor AI that causes it to constantly run off and die. Also, there is the fact that the pet is a considerably liability with its "ability" to explode in a plaguebreak bomb, which, since it has so little health, it will do. Then, you can get stun-locked while you have to resummon it. And, on top of all that, the heal isn't even guaranteed to hit you.
I don't consider a flying plaguebreak bomb that's just likely to get you killed as it is to actually heal you to be a reasonable, comparable, burst heal.
Pet commands on console are…- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press LT to call your pets back to you.
- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press RT to have your pet attack a ranged target.
- Heavy attack a target to have your pet switch to that one.
The Twilight Matriarch is the best burst heal in the game in group play as it hits two targets for full value without having to monitor where the players being healed are, similar to how Breath of Life worked, prior to it being deleted from the game.
People hear me call Honor the Dead “Breath of Life” and say, what is that?
Ahaha
The only burst heal in the game you have to expend resources on to keep it alive to even heal you in the first place.
Plus now Stam Sorcs not only need to double bar the burst heal but they also need to clear another skill spot for a shield so they can try to keep it active for when they need it?
Stam Sorcs have access to Rally, last I checked that ability still functions? Or you could throw on a Restoration Staff if you want more restoration, there’s always Combat Prayer.
Oh yeah, Rally is amazing and hits harder than any other burst heal in the game, if it's been active for 15 seconds already. If you're taking lots of incoming damage and need to cast it more than once the second and third consecutive casts are going to crit for 5K if you're lucky, if it doesn't your "burst" heal is 3K a cast. Plus that locks Stam Sorcs into 2H while every other stam spec can choose DW. Play as you want unless you're a stam sorc I guess?
Stamina Sorcerer is in the best spot out of every Stamina class, hybridization did them wonders.
Advocating for StamSorc buffs when StamCro, StamPlar, StamBlade, and StamDen need much more attention, makes quite literally no sense.
Edit; Also, to your comment about Combat Prayer, if that ability is underperforming as a burst heal, you should be advocating for a selfish morph, as one morph of the ability gets zero playtime.
Or they could do the reasonable thing and give Sorcs a class based burst heal comparable to what everyone else has. The reality of the game now is no pure stam/mag spec is top notch anymore, hybrid rules and every class you listed got access to an effective class based magic cost burst heal as part of hybridization. If hybrid stam sorcs are in such a great place why do they only account for maybe 5-10 percent of the Cyro population?Edited by Thecompton73 on February 22, 2023 9:58PM2 -
Pelanora✭✭✭✭✭
✭Regarding Sorcerers and their lack of unique buff/debuffs, this is intentional and there are no current plans to change this. Sorcerers do have some unique abilities in their kit, like silences. However, not locking Sorcerer into having unique buffs/debuff allows for more class diversity in group environments.
Oh well.
With U37, you manage to release a patch that is actually decent and gives reason for hope that maybe we won't have to dread the ominous arrival of new patches, like has been the case for the last years.
(Yes, maybe take that as feedback as well: Your patches have not been a reason to be excited about new stuff. Your patches have been a reason for fear and anxiety about your dreaded combat changes. And a general conviction that whatever you do, it'll make things worse - like AWA. For several cycles now.)
Anyway, there's a good update coming out...
... and at the same time, there are quotes like this. I don't even know where to start, and the snipped rest of the post raises even more questions, this is just the most egregious part. Like, wtf is that paragraph even supposed to mean???
And so, with only a few sentences, every budding confidence in the combat team is thoroughly destroyed again.
It means, combat team know the state sorc is in, and they are happy with it.
The presumption in the forums, until that message, was somehow they just didn't know, and if we told them, carefully and comprehensively, or if they played sorc, they would say, 'oh', and change things.
Well, the feedback is, they know, and they are happy with it. So, end of.5 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Sorcerer does have instant cast burst heals, they just need to protect their pet,
Yeah, no. The pet has such little health that it constantly dies, not to mention the extremely poor AI that causes it to constantly run off and die. Also, there is the fact that the pet is a considerably liability with its "ability" to explode in a plaguebreak bomb, which, since it has so little health, it will do. Then, you can get stun-locked while you have to resummon it. And, on top of all that, the heal isn't even guaranteed to hit you.
I don't consider a flying plaguebreak bomb that's just likely to get you killed as it is to actually heal you to be a reasonable, comparable, burst heal.
Pet commands on console are…- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press LT to call your pets back to you.
- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press RT to have your pet attack a ranged target.
- Heavy attack a target to have your pet switch to that one.
The Twilight Matriarch is the best burst heal in the game in group play as it hits two targets for full value without having to monitor where the players being healed are, similar to how Breath of Life worked, prior to it being deleted from the game.
People hear me call Honor the Dead “Breath of Life” and say, what is that?
Ahaha
The only burst heal in the game you have to expend resources on to keep it alive to even heal you in the first place.
Plus now Stam Sorcs not only need to double bar the burst heal but they also need to clear another skill spot for a shield so they can try to keep it active for when they need it?
Stam Sorcs have access to Rally, last I checked that ability still functions? Or you could throw on a Restoration Staff if you want more restoration, there’s always Combat Prayer.
Oh yeah, Rally is amazing and hits harder than any other burst heal in the game, if it's been active for 15 seconds already. If you're taking lots of incoming damage and need to cast it more than once the second and third consecutive casts are going to crit for 5K if you're lucky, if it doesn't your "burst" heal is 3K a cast. Plus that locks Stam Sorcs into 2H while every other stam spec can choose DW. Play as you want unless you're a stam sorc I guess?
Stamina Sorcerer is in the best spot out of every Stamina class, hybridization did them wonders.
Advocating for StamSorc buffs when StamCro, StamPlar, StamBlade, and StamDen need much more attention, makes quite literally no sense.
Edit; Also, to your comment about Combat Prayer, if that ability is underperforming as a burst heal, you should be advocating for a selfish morph, as one morph of the ability gets zero playtime.
Or they could do the reasonable thing and give Sorcs a class based burst heal comparable to what everyone else has. If hybrid stam sorcs are in such a great place why do they only account for maybe 5-10 percent of the Cyro population?
It’s not though, where are you getting your numbers? They are quite literally everywhere on Xbox NA, find me more than 3 of any of the other Stam classes anywhere, excluding Dragonknight.
Also, I keep hearing how horrible the burst heal of the class is, yet Dark Deal is one of the most busted abilities in the game. The counterplay is it’s interruptible yet in actual gameplay, it’s next to impossible to interrupt it, allowing ALL iterations of Sorcerer to nearly endlessly cast all of their abilities without a single heavy attack.
I’ll trade you my garbage Honor the Dead for your Dark Deal any day of the week.Edited by The_Titan_Tim on February 22, 2023 9:59PM0 -
Thecompton73✭✭✭✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Sorcerer does have instant cast burst heals, they just need to protect their pet,
Yeah, no. The pet has such little health that it constantly dies, not to mention the extremely poor AI that causes it to constantly run off and die. Also, there is the fact that the pet is a considerably liability with its "ability" to explode in a plaguebreak bomb, which, since it has so little health, it will do. Then, you can get stun-locked while you have to resummon it. And, on top of all that, the heal isn't even guaranteed to hit you.
I don't consider a flying plaguebreak bomb that's just likely to get you killed as it is to actually heal you to be a reasonable, comparable, burst heal.
Pet commands on console are…- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press LT to call your pets back to you.
- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press RT to have your pet attack a ranged target.
- Heavy attack a target to have your pet switch to that one.
The Twilight Matriarch is the best burst heal in the game in group play as it hits two targets for full value without having to monitor where the players being healed are, similar to how Breath of Life worked, prior to it being deleted from the game.
People hear me call Honor the Dead “Breath of Life” and say, what is that?
Ahaha
The only burst heal in the game you have to expend resources on to keep it alive to even heal you in the first place.
Plus now Stam Sorcs not only need to double bar the burst heal but they also need to clear another skill spot for a shield so they can try to keep it active for when they need it?
Stam Sorcs have access to Rally, last I checked that ability still functions? Or you could throw on a Restoration Staff if you want more restoration, there’s always Combat Prayer.
Oh yeah, Rally is amazing and hits harder than any other burst heal in the game, if it's been active for 15 seconds already. If you're taking lots of incoming damage and need to cast it more than once the second and third consecutive casts are going to crit for 5K if you're lucky, if it doesn't your "burst" heal is 3K a cast. Plus that locks Stam Sorcs into 2H while every other stam spec can choose DW. Play as you want unless you're a stam sorc I guess?
Stamina Sorcerer is in the best spot out of every Stamina class, hybridization did them wonders.
Advocating for StamSorc buffs when StamCro, StamPlar, StamBlade, and StamDen need much more attention, makes quite literally no sense.
Edit; Also, to your comment about Combat Prayer, if that ability is underperforming as a burst heal, you should be advocating for a selfish morph, as one morph of the ability gets zero playtime.
Or they could do the reasonable thing and give Sorcs a class based burst heal comparable to what everyone else has. If hybrid stam sorcs are in such a great place why do they only account for maybe 5-10 percent of the Cyro population?
It’s not though, where are you getting your numbers? They are quite literally everywhere on Xbox NA, find me more than 3 of any of the other Stam Classes anywhere, excluding Dragonknight.
There really aren't any "stam" classes anymore. Anyone that wants to be effective is playing hybrid. Plus we should exclude DK why? Because currently more than 50% of the players in Cyro are DK's and that ruins your arguement?4 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Sorcerer does have instant cast burst heals, they just need to protect their pet,
Yeah, no. The pet has such little health that it constantly dies, not to mention the extremely poor AI that causes it to constantly run off and die. Also, there is the fact that the pet is a considerably liability with its "ability" to explode in a plaguebreak bomb, which, since it has so little health, it will do. Then, you can get stun-locked while you have to resummon it. And, on top of all that, the heal isn't even guaranteed to hit you.
I don't consider a flying plaguebreak bomb that's just likely to get you killed as it is to actually heal you to be a reasonable, comparable, burst heal.
Pet commands on console are…- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press LT to call your pets back to you.
- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press RT to have your pet attack a ranged target.
- Heavy attack a target to have your pet switch to that one.
The Twilight Matriarch is the best burst heal in the game in group play as it hits two targets for full value without having to monitor where the players being healed are, similar to how Breath of Life worked, prior to it being deleted from the game.
People hear me call Honor the Dead “Breath of Life” and say, what is that?
Ahaha
The only burst heal in the game you have to expend resources on to keep it alive to even heal you in the first place.
Plus now Stam Sorcs not only need to double bar the burst heal but they also need to clear another skill spot for a shield so they can try to keep it active for when they need it?
Stam Sorcs have access to Rally, last I checked that ability still functions? Or you could throw on a Restoration Staff if you want more restoration, there’s always Combat Prayer.
Oh yeah, Rally is amazing and hits harder than any other burst heal in the game, if it's been active for 15 seconds already. If you're taking lots of incoming damage and need to cast it more than once the second and third consecutive casts are going to crit for 5K if you're lucky, if it doesn't your "burst" heal is 3K a cast. Plus that locks Stam Sorcs into 2H while every other stam spec can choose DW. Play as you want unless you're a stam sorc I guess?
Stamina Sorcerer is in the best spot out of every Stamina class, hybridization did them wonders.
Advocating for StamSorc buffs when StamCro, StamPlar, StamBlade, and StamDen need much more attention, makes quite literally no sense.
Edit; Also, to your comment about Combat Prayer, if that ability is underperforming as a burst heal, you should be advocating for a selfish morph, as one morph of the ability gets zero playtime.
Or they could do the reasonable thing and give Sorcs a class based burst heal comparable to what everyone else has. If hybrid stam sorcs are in such a great place why do they only account for maybe 5-10 percent of the Cyro population?
It’s not though, where are you getting your numbers? They are quite literally everywhere on Xbox NA, find me more than 3 of any of the other Stam Classes anywhere, excluding Dragonknight.
There really aren't any "stam" classes anymore. Anyone that wants to be effective is playing hybrid. Plus we should exclude DK why? Because currently more than 50% of the players in Cyro are DK's and that ruins your arguement?
It doesn’t ruin my argument at all, all it does is confirm that Dragonknight is overperforming in it’s need area and in need of a heavy handed sustain nerf.
Also, Magicka and Stamina builds still exist, they are determined by your largest resource pool, if you predominately build high Stamina, you’re a Stamina build, and vice versa.Edited by The_Titan_Tim on February 22, 2023 10:05PM3 -
Thecompton73✭✭✭✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Sorcerer does have instant cast burst heals, they just need to protect their pet,
Yeah, no. The pet has such little health that it constantly dies, not to mention the extremely poor AI that causes it to constantly run off and die. Also, there is the fact that the pet is a considerably liability with its "ability" to explode in a plaguebreak bomb, which, since it has so little health, it will do. Then, you can get stun-locked while you have to resummon it. And, on top of all that, the heal isn't even guaranteed to hit you.
I don't consider a flying plaguebreak bomb that's just likely to get you killed as it is to actually heal you to be a reasonable, comparable, burst heal.
Pet commands on console are…- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press LT to call your pets back to you.
- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press RT to have your pet attack a ranged target.
- Heavy attack a target to have your pet switch to that one.
The Twilight Matriarch is the best burst heal in the game in group play as it hits two targets for full value without having to monitor where the players being healed are, similar to how Breath of Life worked, prior to it being deleted from the game.
People hear me call Honor the Dead “Breath of Life” and say, what is that?
Ahaha
The only burst heal in the game you have to expend resources on to keep it alive to even heal you in the first place.
Plus now Stam Sorcs not only need to double bar the burst heal but they also need to clear another skill spot for a shield so they can try to keep it active for when they need it?
Stam Sorcs have access to Rally, last I checked that ability still functions? Or you could throw on a Restoration Staff if you want more restoration, there’s always Combat Prayer.
Oh yeah, Rally is amazing and hits harder than any other burst heal in the game, if it's been active for 15 seconds already. If you're taking lots of incoming damage and need to cast it more than once the second and third consecutive casts are going to crit for 5K if you're lucky, if it doesn't your "burst" heal is 3K a cast. Plus that locks Stam Sorcs into 2H while every other stam spec can choose DW. Play as you want unless you're a stam sorc I guess?
Stamina Sorcerer is in the best spot out of every Stamina class, hybridization did them wonders.
Advocating for StamSorc buffs when StamCro, StamPlar, StamBlade, and StamDen need much more attention, makes quite literally no sense.
Edit; Also, to your comment about Combat Prayer, if that ability is underperforming as a burst heal, you should be advocating for a selfish morph, as one morph of the ability gets zero playtime.
Or they could do the reasonable thing and give Sorcs a class based burst heal comparable to what everyone else has. If hybrid stam sorcs are in such a great place why do they only account for maybe 5-10 percent of the Cyro population?
It’s not though, where are you getting your numbers? They are quite literally everywhere on Xbox NA, find me more than 3 of any of the other Stam Classes anywhere, excluding Dragonknight.
There really aren't any "stam" classes anymore. Anyone that wants to be effective is playing hybrid. Plus we should exclude DK why? Because currently more than 50% of the players in Cyro are DK's and that ruins your arguement?
It doesn’t ruin my argument at all, it confirms that the class is overperforming and in need of a heavy handed sustain nerf.
But if "stam" sorc is "in the best spot" of any stam class because hybridization did so much for them shouldn't they be the class everyone is flocking too? Shouldn't people be opening up countless threads about how OP they are?
Edit: So you think my DK with 19500 stam and 19000 magic with duel wield fb and ice staff bb is a "stam" toon even though he uses a Vaterhran staff to apply a frost based attack along with major breach and elemental status effects as well as Flames of Oblivion, a magic cost stun, a magic cost heal, and a split cost flame damage whip for burst?Edited by Thecompton73 on February 22, 2023 10:17PM4 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Sorcerer does have instant cast burst heals, they just need to protect their pet,
Yeah, no. The pet has such little health that it constantly dies, not to mention the extremely poor AI that causes it to constantly run off and die. Also, there is the fact that the pet is a considerably liability with its "ability" to explode in a plaguebreak bomb, which, since it has so little health, it will do. Then, you can get stun-locked while you have to resummon it. And, on top of all that, the heal isn't even guaranteed to hit you.
I don't consider a flying plaguebreak bomb that's just likely to get you killed as it is to actually heal you to be a reasonable, comparable, burst heal.
Pet commands on console are…- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press LT to call your pets back to you.
- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press RT to have your pet attack a ranged target.
- Heavy attack a target to have your pet switch to that one.
The Twilight Matriarch is the best burst heal in the game in group play as it hits two targets for full value without having to monitor where the players being healed are, similar to how Breath of Life worked, prior to it being deleted from the game.
People hear me call Honor the Dead “Breath of Life” and say, what is that?
Ahaha
The only burst heal in the game you have to expend resources on to keep it alive to even heal you in the first place.
Plus now Stam Sorcs not only need to double bar the burst heal but they also need to clear another skill spot for a shield so they can try to keep it active for when they need it?
Stam Sorcs have access to Rally, last I checked that ability still functions? Or you could throw on a Restoration Staff if you want more restoration, there’s always Combat Prayer.
Oh yeah, Rally is amazing and hits harder than any other burst heal in the game, if it's been active for 15 seconds already. If you're taking lots of incoming damage and need to cast it more than once the second and third consecutive casts are going to crit for 5K if you're lucky, if it doesn't your "burst" heal is 3K a cast. Plus that locks Stam Sorcs into 2H while every other stam spec can choose DW. Play as you want unless you're a stam sorc I guess?
Stamina Sorcerer is in the best spot out of every Stamina class, hybridization did them wonders.
Advocating for StamSorc buffs when StamCro, StamPlar, StamBlade, and StamDen need much more attention, makes quite literally no sense.
Edit; Also, to your comment about Combat Prayer, if that ability is underperforming as a burst heal, you should be advocating for a selfish morph, as one morph of the ability gets zero playtime.
Or they could do the reasonable thing and give Sorcs a class based burst heal comparable to what everyone else has. If hybrid stam sorcs are in such a great place why do they only account for maybe 5-10 percent of the Cyro population?
It’s not though, where are you getting your numbers? They are quite literally everywhere on Xbox NA, find me more than 3 of any of the other Stam Classes anywhere, excluding Dragonknight.
There really aren't any "stam" classes anymore. Anyone that wants to be effective is playing hybrid. Plus we should exclude DK why? Because currently more than 50% of the players in Cyro are DK's and that ruins your arguement?
It doesn’t ruin my argument at all, it confirms that the class is overperforming and in need of a heavy handed sustain nerf.
But if "stam" sorc is "in the best spot" of any stam class because hybridization did so much for them shouldn't they be the class everyone is flocking too? Shouldn't people be opening up countless threads about how OP they are?
No, because Stam Sorc is the standard that all Stamina classes should be held to. When something is performing correctly, you don’t comment on it, other than to acknowledge the great job balancing it.
Stamina Sorcerer was ZOS’s prototype Stamina build, it was the first that received a rework, and has had the most work done to it of all of the classes. It’s great as it is.0 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Thecompton73 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »acastanza_ESO wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Sorcerer does have instant cast burst heals, they just need to protect their pet,
Yeah, no. The pet has such little health that it constantly dies, not to mention the extremely poor AI that causes it to constantly run off and die. Also, there is the fact that the pet is a considerably liability with its "ability" to explode in a plaguebreak bomb, which, since it has so little health, it will do. Then, you can get stun-locked while you have to resummon it. And, on top of all that, the heal isn't even guaranteed to hit you.
I don't consider a flying plaguebreak bomb that's just likely to get you killed as it is to actually heal you to be a reasonable, comparable, burst heal.
Pet commands on console are…- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press LT to call your pets back to you.
- Press and hold Left Stick and Right Stick, then press RT to have your pet attack a ranged target.
- Heavy attack a target to have your pet switch to that one.
The Twilight Matriarch is the best burst heal in the game in group play as it hits two targets for full value without having to monitor where the players being healed are, similar to how Breath of Life worked, prior to it being deleted from the game.
People hear me call Honor the Dead “Breath of Life” and say, what is that?
Ahaha
The only burst heal in the game you have to expend resources on to keep it alive to even heal you in the first place.
Plus now Stam Sorcs not only need to double bar the burst heal but they also need to clear another skill spot for a shield so they can try to keep it active for when they need it?
Stam Sorcs have access to Rally, last I checked that ability still functions? Or you could throw on a Restoration Staff if you want more restoration, there’s always Combat Prayer.
Oh yeah, Rally is amazing and hits harder than any other burst heal in the game, if it's been active for 15 seconds already. If you're taking lots of incoming damage and need to cast it more than once the second and third consecutive casts are going to crit for 5K if you're lucky, if it doesn't your "burst" heal is 3K a cast. Plus that locks Stam Sorcs into 2H while every other stam spec can choose DW. Play as you want unless you're a stam sorc I guess?
Stamina Sorcerer is in the best spot out of every Stamina class, hybridization did them wonders.
Advocating for StamSorc buffs when StamCro, StamPlar, StamBlade, and StamDen need much more attention, makes quite literally no sense.
Edit; Also, to your comment about Combat Prayer, if that ability is underperforming as a burst heal, you should be advocating for a selfish morph, as one morph of the ability gets zero playtime.
Or they could do the reasonable thing and give Sorcs a class based burst heal comparable to what everyone else has. If hybrid stam sorcs are in such a great place why do they only account for maybe 5-10 percent of the Cyro population?
It’s not though, where are you getting your numbers? They are quite literally everywhere on Xbox NA, find me more than 3 of any of the other Stam Classes anywhere, excluding Dragonknight.
There really aren't any "stam" classes anymore. Anyone that wants to be effective is playing hybrid. Plus we should exclude DK why? Because currently more than 50% of the players in Cyro are DK's and that ruins your arguement?
It doesn’t ruin my argument at all, it confirms that the class is overperforming and in need of a heavy handed sustain nerf.
Edit: So you think my DK with 19500 stam and 19000 magic with duel wield fb and ice staff bb is a "stam" toon even though he uses a Vaterhran staff to apply a frost based attack along with major breach and elemental status effects as well as Flames of Oblivion, a magic cost stun, a magic cost heal, and a split cost flame damage whip for burst?
In response to your edit; that build is a hybrid. Any build with both resource pools that close together would be Hybrid, as it uses both resources equally.
So, you indirectly furthered my point, before my argument was StamDK was overperforming and StamSorc was fine, now you’ve made it clear that HybridDK is overperforming, and StamDK is on par with StamSorc being completely fine, thanks.Edited by The_Titan_Tim on February 22, 2023 10:34PM0 -
shinry✭✭✭phantasmalD wrote: »The combat team is always looking at data from various points of play (PvE, PvP, low-end to high-end damage parse, group content and solo play, etc.) and collective feedback across the board to make informed balanced adjustments. Many of the previous adjustments to Templar were directly made off of those points.
.
Interesting.
vDSR last boss HM damage rankings
Interesting indeed.
Stats are a fascinating beast.Despite the over representation of DKs, they are apparently not the top performing class.
(A big spit in the face of all those 'Templar trash-tier' posts, apparently (based on these trial stats at least,) Templar is a solid A-tier class at worst, and is perfectly capable of outperforming DKs.)
I think referring to class usage stats as evidence that classes are unbalanced is a bit flawed, as class usage is fueled by the perception that there's an S tier/broken class.
People think class is broken -> they use it more -> class is used more -> this make people think that class is broken -> they use it more. It's a self fueling cycle.
The Solo Iron Atronach parses paint a very interesting picture.
The top 6 parses by Yezzll probably can be ignored, it seems something went wrong when submitting those times as they are highly unrealistic and wildly out of range of the rest of the parses. Taking that into account we can start at #7, which iiiis... a Magplar. Followed by some sorcerers.
You have to go down till #15 (#9, when adjusted) to find a stam DK and #26 (#20) for a mag DK.
The playing field looks a lot more even, based on this.
I'd hazard the guess that if DKs are really overperforming in a trial setting, than that's not because the class on an individual level is massively broken, but because all the buffs that specifically target Flame damage, like Encratis and Engulfing Flames.
I think trial settings are a better measure of actual gameplay balance than a dummy parse because more and more the dummy parse doesn't do well to simulate an actual end-game encounter. The first "real" magplar parse isn't a good measure either because they are using simmering fury and blood for blood so wouldn't even be able to be healed by anyone else and probably wouldn't be a welcomed strategy in a reasonable trial situation where you could hope to get those other buffs to bolster you in tandem with the vampire buffs. My parse would be the next one for plars and I went in-depth previously on the thread about why Templars wouldn't do anywhere near as good in 95% of trial environments compared to the dummy, when you are channeling 80% of the time and the most re-used mechanic in trials is to block cast or die which you can't do while channeling. This is what truly matters from a gameplay perspective. And that isn't even getting into how some classes have much better tools for simultaneously doing better aoe damage while single target parsing, or the uneven unique buffs they can bring to a group.
I don't even know why I bother trying to explain this. It seems that some devs are currently not as interested in feedback as the community and forum managers. I really appreciate you guys trying though.3 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
Undodgable executes with a big tooltip and a 20m range is a bad game design. Steel Tornado was an undodgable execute with a 9m range and got nerfed (rightfully so). It was so strong that people used it as both a spammable and an execute.
You're comparing apples and oranges here. Steel Tornado is an aoe execute. Radiant is single target. It'd be better to compare Impale and Radiant. Impale is dodgeable, but then again it isn't a channel either. There are downsides to being channels. And Radiant only tickles until under 20% anyways. And having a skill to counter dodge rolling is important. Besides, we don't want all classes to be the same.
I compared Steel Tornado with Radiant Destruction because they both scale at 50% HP, are undodgable, and can be used above 50% HP. Impale is only useful below 25%. This makes Steel tornado and Radiant Destruction more similar than Impale and Radiant Destruction.
Anyways, an execute that is undodgable AND has a long range should start scaling at a lower HP threshold, not at 50%. Impale is an example of an execute that would be fine if it’s undodgable because it scales at 25% HP. Whirling Blade is an example of an execute that can scale at 50% HP threshold because it’s easy to escape the range.
Execute damage that are long ranged and have a strong scaling should still be countered by more than one basic defensive maneuvers. The issue of people being too tanky is entirely different and needs different solutions, NOT making executes stronger to the point that it’s difficult to play against.
Just because the ability begins scaling at 50% does not mean that it reaches anywhere near the value of being impactful immediately at that 50% or even 40%. You need to hit them while they are under 20% to ensure a kill with one tick of the ability, and that’s on a build in Clever Alchemist, New Moon, Blackrose DW & Balorgh, as high as damage gets. Now if we’re not factoring in Undeath, something found on everybody that’s not a Werewolf, maybe 25%.
If given the choice of nerfing an Execute that executes people, or buffing Executes that aren’t actually securing kills as intended, I’d go with option #2. Which is why I’m not shouting from the rooftops to get Mage’s Wrath nerfed as it’s clearly overperforming in Deathmatch.
Clever + Newmoon is not as high damage as it can get…
I’ve taken 5-6k jesus beam ticks while not even below 40% lol.
Anyways, you can both nerf an overperforming ability and buff other underperforming ones.
Mages Wrath by itself is not overperforming. BG is where it shines but outside of that it’s useless.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc2 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
Undodgable executes with a big tooltip and a 20m range is a bad game design. Steel Tornado was an undodgable execute with a 9m range and got nerfed (rightfully so). It was so strong that people used it as both a spammable and an execute.
You're comparing apples and oranges here. Steel Tornado is an aoe execute. Radiant is single target. It'd be better to compare Impale and Radiant. Impale is dodgeable, but then again it isn't a channel either. There are downsides to being channels. And Radiant only tickles until under 20% anyways. And having a skill to counter dodge rolling is important. Besides, we don't want all classes to be the same.
I compared Steel Tornado with Radiant Destruction because they both scale at 50% HP, are undodgable, and can be used above 50% HP. Impale is only useful below 25%. This makes Steel tornado and Radiant Destruction more similar than Impale and Radiant Destruction.
Anyways, an execute that is undodgable AND has a long range should start scaling at a lower HP threshold, not at 50%. Impale is an example of an execute that would be fine if it’s undodgable because it scales at 25% HP. Whirling Blade is an example of an execute that can scale at 50% HP threshold because it’s easy to escape the range.
Execute damage that are long ranged and have a strong scaling should still be countered by more than one basic defensive maneuvers. The issue of people being too tanky is entirely different and needs different solutions, NOT making executes stronger to the point that it’s difficult to play against.
Just because the ability begins scaling at 50% does not mean that it reaches anywhere near the value of being impactful immediately at that 50% or even 40%. You need to hit them while they are under 20% to ensure a kill with one tick of the ability, and that’s on a build in Clever Alchemist, New Moon, Blackrose DW & Balorgh, as high as damage gets. Now if we’re not factoring in Undeath, something found on everybody that’s not a Werewolf, maybe 25%.
If given the choice of nerfing an Execute that executes people, or buffing Executes that aren’t actually securing kills as intended, I’d go with option #2. Which is why I’m not shouting from the rooftops to get Mage’s Wrath nerfed as it’s clearly overperforming in Deathmatch.
Clever + Newmoon is not as high damage as it can get…
I’ve taken 5-6k jesus beam ticks while not even below 40% lol.
Anyways, you can both nerf an overperforming ability and buff other underperforming ones.
Mages Wrath by itself is not overperforming. BG is where it shines but outside of that it’s useless.
Other than swapping out New Moon for Riptide, that is the highest Spell Damage you will achieve on a Templar, given Balanced Warrior’s 6% increase, while still maintaining a threat.
Radiant only overpowers roll dodging bots.
Mage’s Wrath kills for you.0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »I want sorcerer as a whole to be buffed not just shield stacking option. I'm just fighting for that more simply due to the fact is the weakest out of all the styles of play by a huge margine and has been for many many years hence why people do not use them anymore. I do not play stamina or hybrid sorcerer however just looking at the passives and the kit vs other classes just at base it's obvious not as powerful as a Dk, Nb, Wardens and to a less extent a temp. Necro is garbage outside of bombing groups. Some of our passives are utterly terrible. I'm in full support of having empowered ward being a burst heal, making pets one bar, reworking passives, buffing darkdeal/morphs, making BOL do more ect as it would help the class in every possible playstyle. Just do not forget about the weakest form of sorcerer and that's pure max magicka shield sorcerer. It's the most favourite style of play across the board for mag specs and it's becoming more and more redundant due to it underperforming massively in today's climate. But yes the class as a whole needs buffing not just that one playstyle
People don’t play MagSorc in PvP because it is extremely unfriendly to new players, while extremely rewarding to veterans.
Any class, in any game, that has a steep learning curve to it, will be looked over by the majority.
Edit; I shouldn’t say people don’t play MagSorc in PvP, they are literally everywhere. Just not in duels, and that’s due to that skill curve.
It’s much easier to play a Dragonknight and DoT people up, or go invisible to blast someone with a 20k critical Spectral Bow.
I’m also in favor of making pets one-bar with a 20-30 second duration attached to them, but I don’t believe Sorcerer’s deserve better heals, that is their weak point, it’s always been that way. If they get an instant-cast burst heal unassociated with pets, like every other class, I want Shadowy Disguise or a functioning Streak on my Templar. I’d also like Battle Roar too while we’re at it.
You're basically getting an alternative to ball of lightning with the new mist form skill, so I think its fair if sorcs get a burst heal as a morph of ward so that they have an instant cast heal not tied to pets at the cost of giving up their shield.
Calling mist an alternative for ball of lightning is like calling DK chain an alternative for other gap cloers. It's truth on paper but real aplication of ability makes it way less effective and not a real alternative which is one of the reasons devs tried to buff chain in the first place. Even after fixes on PTS , mist is still super cluncky with that ground AoE targeting. Ball of lightning is also a weaker morph that barely anyone is using because stun os streak is way better so in reality we are getting a crippled version of a weaker morph. Not the end of the world but let's not pretend new mist will be a ground shaking deal. Templars especially would preffer to have current version of mist rather than new one. For them new mist change is a nerf.
it's not a perfect clone of ball of lightning, but it is still a non targeted teleport (doesn't require a target enemy that is) that blocks projectiles and provides defensive buffs when used, so its definitely an alternative.
Also, streak is used because the class has no other access to a reliable stun. Rune cage got gutted years ago to have a 3 second delay on its trigger and when it is cast it places a super obvious purple crystal over its target that screams dodge roll within the next 3 seconds to avoid this stun.
If sorc had access to a reliable stun that wasn't streak, guaranteed BoL would be used more to help make up for some of sorcs non-existent defense1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Backlash and morphs are seriously underperforming in PvP right now. Templar's burst ability should be hitting for more than 2-5k damage against players. Please look at the several threads talking about how weak Templar is currently and address the issue properly for week three of PTS, or look at the several comments on this thread. Nerf beam too, please.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621126/templar-underperforming#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/623771/suggestion-for-the-backlash-templar-skill-and-burning-light#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615702/jab-puncturing-sweep-is-useless-in-pvp-because-of-snare-duration-nerf-damage-nerf#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/622843/templar-identity#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/625384/burst-damage-and-healing-templar-stam-mag#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/625273/templar-feels-incredibly-bleh-anyone-have-a-fun-effective-build#latest
Nightblade is still overperforming due to the unique 10% damage buff attached to concealed weapon.
Sorc changes don't address the issues with the class in PvP.
Yes the one decent buff nb got in multiple patches where it finally parsed on par with other classes and let's nuke it. We were barely hitting 100k while sorc was breaking 130k ffsEdited by boi_anachronism_ on February 23, 2023 4:54AM0 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Backlash and morphs are seriously underperforming in PvP right now. Templar's burst ability should be hitting for more than 2-5k damage against players. Please look at the several threads talking about how weak Templar is currently and address the issue properly for week three of PTS, or look at the several comments on this thread. Nerf beam too, please.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/621126/templar-underperforming#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/623771/suggestion-for-the-backlash-templar-skill-and-burning-light#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615702/jab-puncturing-sweep-is-useless-in-pvp-because-of-snare-duration-nerf-damage-nerf#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/622843/templar-identity#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/625384/burst-damage-and-healing-templar-stam-mag#latest
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/625273/templar-feels-incredibly-bleh-anyone-have-a-fun-effective-build#latest
Nightblade is still overperforming due to the unique 10% damage buff attached to concealed weapon.
Sorc changes don't address the issues with the class in PvP.
Yes the one decent buff nb got in multiple patches where it finally parsed on par with other classes and let's nuke it. We were barely hitting 100k while sorc was breaking 130k ffs
Nightblade’s damage is completely acceptable, the class is designed to be a rogue-like spec.
What is not acceptable, is that the class is playing “house” better than a Templar right now.Edited by The_Titan_Tim on February 23, 2023 4:58AM2 -
UNSeki✭✭✭Seeing as shield skills have a flat cost that doesn't always translate to a timed benefit (such as healing does, because shields can get drained before the duration), I think our concerns about sorcerers relying on shielding VS other classes having stronger healing options are sensible.
Are there any plans to look into giving additional effects to shield skills (excluding skills that give shields as 2ndary effects)? I mean some timed effect that triggers on activation and doesn't depend on the shield being up. Perhaps even a unique effect to sorcerers, like I proposed in another thread (reduced damage over time).1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »I want sorcerer as a whole to be buffed not just shield stacking option. I'm just fighting for that more simply due to the fact is the weakest out of all the styles of play by a huge margine and has been for many many years hence why people do not use them anymore. I do not play stamina or hybrid sorcerer however just looking at the passives and the kit vs other classes just at base it's obvious not as powerful as a Dk, Nb, Wardens and to a less extent a temp. Necro is garbage outside of bombing groups. Some of our passives are utterly terrible. I'm in full support of having empowered ward being a burst heal, making pets one bar, reworking passives, buffing darkdeal/morphs, making BOL do more ect as it would help the class in every possible playstyle. Just do not forget about the weakest form of sorcerer and that's pure max magicka shield sorcerer. It's the most favourite style of play across the board for mag specs and it's becoming more and more redundant due to it underperforming massively in today's climate. But yes the class as a whole needs buffing not just that one playstyle
People don’t play MagSorc in PvP because it is extremely unfriendly to new players, while extremely rewarding to veterans.
Any class, in any game, that has a steep learning curve to it, will be looked over by the majority.
Edit; I shouldn’t say people don’t play MagSorc in PvP, they are literally everywhere. Just not in duels, and that’s due to that skill curve.
It’s much easier to play a Dragonknight and DoT people up, or go invisible to blast someone with a 20k critical Spectral Bow.
I’m also in favor of making pets one-bar with a 20-30 second duration attached to them, but I don’t believe Sorcerer’s deserve better heals, that is their weak point, it’s always been that way. If they get an instant-cast burst heal unassociated with pets, like every other class, I want Shadowy Disguise or a functioning Streak on my Templar. I’d also like Battle Roar too while we’re at it.
You're basically getting an alternative to ball of lightning with the new mist form skill, so I think its fair if sorcs get a burst heal as a morph of ward so that they have an instant cast heal not tied to pets at the cost of giving up their shield.
They have one, it’s called Combat Prayer.
I'm sorry but combat prayer? The same heal that heals for 20-25% less while costing 10% more resources per cast because its AoE not ST, that forces you into running the weaker restoration staff on the back bar (that got nerfed heavily in U34) instead of the superior options of sword and shield, bow or ice staff? That heal is what sorcs should be forced to use instead of having a proper one in class?
Also, you were one of the most vocal calling for plar to receive buffs to PotL, jabs, etc so I hope you're not going to be a hypocrite now by still calling for buffs to plars damage. After all, plars weakness is supposed to be damage.
Plar is supposed to rely on sets and out of class skills to try and build to overcome that weakness, so if that's the case then it should have beam nerfed to 300-400% scaling and base damage reduced by 50% or have it start its scaling at 20% instead of 50% and javelin should no longer ignore resistances and have a much slower travel time to allow better counter play. Javelin should also have its potential to desync enemy players removed since that is a bug that is being abused by plars to essentially 1 shot enemies. That logic also means that PotL and jabs are in a good spot now, they no longer overcome plars weakness of damage and as such they should not need any buffs at all right?
Fair's fair, according to your logic, if sorc is not allowed to have heals without building entirely for them and giving up on everything else in the process while also having to deal with game breaking downsides to using their class abilities, then plars should not be allowed to have damage without building entirely for it without giving up everything else in the process and without gamebreaking downsides to their damage abilities.
Or, you know, we could just accept that the devs stated principle was to allow all classes to be able to fill any roll and players to be allowed to play the way they want on their chosen class and call for buffs/fixes/improvements to all underperforming classes, instead of trying to step all over each other which only serves to prevent any class from getting the buffs/fixes/improvements they require to make them equal to the classes that are currently performing strongly.4 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
Undodgable executes with a big tooltip and a 20m range is a bad game design. Steel Tornado was an undodgable execute with a 9m range and got nerfed (rightfully so). It was so strong that people used it as both a spammable and an execute.
You're comparing apples and oranges here. Steel Tornado is an aoe execute. Radiant is single target. It'd be better to compare Impale and Radiant. Impale is dodgeable, but then again it isn't a channel either. There are downsides to being channels. And Radiant only tickles until under 20% anyways. And having a skill to counter dodge rolling is important. Besides, we don't want all classes to be the same.
I compared Steel Tornado with Radiant Destruction because they both scale at 50% HP, are undodgable, and can be used above 50% HP. Impale is only useful below 25%. This makes Steel tornado and Radiant Destruction more similar than Impale and Radiant Destruction.
Anyways, an execute that is undodgable AND has a long range should start scaling at a lower HP threshold, not at 50%. Impale is an example of an execute that would be fine if it’s undodgable because it scales at 25% HP. Whirling Blade is an example of an execute that can scale at 50% HP threshold because it’s easy to escape the range.
Execute damage that are long ranged and have a strong scaling should still be countered by more than one basic defensive maneuvers. The issue of people being too tanky is entirely different and needs different solutions, NOT making executes stronger to the point that it’s difficult to play against.
Just because the ability begins scaling at 50% does not mean that it reaches anywhere near the value of being impactful immediately at that 50% or even 40%. You need to hit them while they are under 20% to ensure a kill with one tick of the ability, and that’s on a build in Clever Alchemist, New Moon, Blackrose DW & Balorgh, as high as damage gets. Now if we’re not factoring in Undeath, something found on everybody that’s not a Werewolf, maybe 25%.
If given the choice of nerfing an Execute that executes people, or buffing Executes that aren’t actually securing kills as intended, I’d go with option #2. Which is why I’m not shouting from the rooftops to get Mage’s Wrath nerfed as it’s clearly overperforming in Deathmatch.
Clever + Newmoon is not as high damage as it can get…
I’ve taken 5-6k jesus beam ticks while not even below 40% lol.
Anyways, you can both nerf an overperforming ability and buff other underperforming ones.
Mages Wrath by itself is not overperforming. BG is where it shines but outside of that it’s useless.
Other than swapping out New Moon for Riptide, that is the highest Spell Damage you will achieve on a Templar, given Balanced Warrior’s 6% increase, while still maintaining a threat.
Radiant only overpowers roll dodging bots.
Mage’s Wrath kills for you.
you mean the same mages wrath that is blockable, dodgeable (for some unkown reason), purgeable or just randomly decides not to proc at all for reason.
Mages wrath is a "noob stomper" ability, it performs fine in low level BGs and against new players who don't know what they're doing, against anyone semi-competent (i.e. they at least block or heal), it does nothing unless they were already 100% guaranteed dead anyway at which point all it does is steal the killing blow.6 -
ForumBully✭✭✭✭✭
✭Been awhile since I checked, but isn't Deadly Strikes better for Radiant than stacking spell damage as well. I remember seeing better numbers with percentage increases than just trying to push Spell power.0 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »I want sorcerer as a whole to be buffed not just shield stacking option. I'm just fighting for that more simply due to the fact is the weakest out of all the styles of play by a huge margine and has been for many many years hence why people do not use them anymore. I do not play stamina or hybrid sorcerer however just looking at the passives and the kit vs other classes just at base it's obvious not as powerful as a Dk, Nb, Wardens and to a less extent a temp. Necro is garbage outside of bombing groups. Some of our passives are utterly terrible. I'm in full support of having empowered ward being a burst heal, making pets one bar, reworking passives, buffing darkdeal/morphs, making BOL do more ect as it would help the class in every possible playstyle. Just do not forget about the weakest form of sorcerer and that's pure max magicka shield sorcerer. It's the most favourite style of play across the board for mag specs and it's becoming more and more redundant due to it underperforming massively in today's climate. But yes the class as a whole needs buffing not just that one playstyle
People don’t play MagSorc in PvP because it is extremely unfriendly to new players, while extremely rewarding to veterans.
Any class, in any game, that has a steep learning curve to it, will be looked over by the majority.
Edit; I shouldn’t say people don’t play MagSorc in PvP, they are literally everywhere. Just not in duels, and that’s due to that skill curve.
It’s much easier to play a Dragonknight and DoT people up, or go invisible to blast someone with a 20k critical Spectral Bow.
I’m also in favor of making pets one-bar with a 20-30 second duration attached to them, but I don’t believe Sorcerer’s deserve better heals, that is their weak point, it’s always been that way. If they get an instant-cast burst heal unassociated with pets, like every other class, I want Shadowy Disguise or a functioning Streak on my Templar. I’d also like Battle Roar too while we’re at it.
You're basically getting an alternative to ball of lightning with the new mist form skill, so I think its fair if sorcs get a burst heal as a morph of ward so that they have an instant cast heal not tied to pets at the cost of giving up their shield.
They have one, it’s called Combat Prayer.
I'm sorry but combat prayer? The same heal that heals for 20-25% less while costing 10% more resources per cast because its AoE not ST, that forces you into running the weaker restoration staff on the back bar (that got nerfed heavily in U34) instead of the superior options of sword and shield, bow or ice staff? That heal is what sorcs should be forced to use instead of having a proper one in class?
Also, you were one of the most vocal calling for plar to receive buffs to PotL, jabs, etc so I hope you're not going to be a hypocrite now by still calling for buffs to plars damage. After all, plars weakness is supposed to be damage.
Plar is supposed to rely on sets and out of class skills to try and build to overcome that weakness, so if that's the case then it should have beam nerfed to 300-400% scaling and base damage reduced by 50% or have it start its scaling at 20% instead of 50% and javelin should no longer ignore resistances and have a much slower travel time to allow better counter play. Javelin should also have its potential to desync enemy players removed since that is a bug that is being abused by plars to essentially 1 shot enemies. That logic also means that PotL and jabs are in a good spot now, they no longer overcome plars weakness of damage and as such they should not need any buffs at all right?
Fair's fair, according to your logic, if sorc is not allowed to have heals without building entirely for them and giving up on everything else in the process while also having to deal with game breaking downsides to using their class abilities, then plars should not be allowed to have damage without building entirely for it without giving up everything else in the process and without gamebreaking downsides to their damage abilities.
Or, you know, we could just accept that the devs stated principle was to allow all classes to be able to fill any roll and players to be allowed to play the way they want on their chosen class and call for buffs/fixes/improvements to all underperforming classes, instead of trying to step all over each other which only serves to prevent any class from getting the buffs/fixes/improvements they require to make them equal to the classes that are currently performing strongly.
Sorry if I came off irritable with you earlier @Turtle_Bot in regards to the comment about Combat Prayer, I just can’t get behind all of this talk about taking the cast time away from Dark Deal, or how the Twilight Matriarch’s heal is bad even though they quite literally stripped our Breath of Life, to give it to that bird.
A better argument that could be pushed for, would be to ask for a single-target morph of Blessing of Protection, while yes I know that being pushed into different weapons feels rough, it’s nothing new to Sorcerer, Healing Ward was always the go-to for the class.
If players using a Sorcerer want better heals, they can use a Restoration Staff or a set that provides healing, or if they want more mitigation, because they refuse to shield stack, there are countless sets that provide that, all while still providing the class enough damage to nuke other players.
In regards to Templar, I am completely fine with where Jabs and POTL is currently, especially after @ZOS_Kevin affirmed a belief I already had, with what our developers direction was.
People don’t know how important that paragraph about each class having drawbacks is, especially coming from someone working with their team. That was hands down the most priceless bit of balance insight we could have asked for.
Where I believe Templar’s actual problems reside given the MO, are with their support abilities, I am completely fine with having to use two offensive sets to make my class abilities hit as hard as they need to. If Templar strips even one offensive set for whatever reason, the entire class suffers, which is fair, as mentioned… each class has a need.
Templar and Necromancer have a weakness of damage, yet only Templar has two skill lines devoted to damage, resulting in a complete contradiction towards this identity.Edited by The_Titan_Tim on February 23, 2023 5:36AM0 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭Essence Thief is a great set for dueling, but doesn’t provide more damage when building stat density for % scaling, it adds more sustain and healing, things you have zero need for on Templar.
You would never run that in high mobility Cyrodiil or Imperial City as you can’t play fetch while constantly moving.
Although, If we’re talking dueling, there’s nothing that could be done in Essence Thief when fighting against Draugrkin and Relequen with a Vateshran Staff and Zaans on any build.Edited by The_Titan_Tim on February 27, 2023 3:19AM0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »I want sorcerer as a whole to be buffed not just shield stacking option. I'm just fighting for that more simply due to the fact is the weakest out of all the styles of play by a huge margine and has been for many many years hence why people do not use them anymore. I do not play stamina or hybrid sorcerer however just looking at the passives and the kit vs other classes just at base it's obvious not as powerful as a Dk, Nb, Wardens and to a less extent a temp. Necro is garbage outside of bombing groups. Some of our passives are utterly terrible. I'm in full support of having empowered ward being a burst heal, making pets one bar, reworking passives, buffing darkdeal/morphs, making BOL do more ect as it would help the class in every possible playstyle. Just do not forget about the weakest form of sorcerer and that's pure max magicka shield sorcerer. It's the most favourite style of play across the board for mag specs and it's becoming more and more redundant due to it underperforming massively in today's climate. But yes the class as a whole needs buffing not just that one playstyle
People don’t play MagSorc in PvP because it is extremely unfriendly to new players, while extremely rewarding to veterans.
Any class, in any game, that has a steep learning curve to it, will be looked over by the majority.
Edit; I shouldn’t say people don’t play MagSorc in PvP, they are literally everywhere. Just not in duels, and that’s due to that skill curve.
It’s much easier to play a Dragonknight and DoT people up, or go invisible to blast someone with a 20k critical Spectral Bow.
I’m also in favor of making pets one-bar with a 20-30 second duration attached to them, but I don’t believe Sorcerer’s deserve better heals, that is their weak point, it’s always been that way. If they get an instant-cast burst heal unassociated with pets, like every other class, I want Shadowy Disguise or a functioning Streak on my Templar. I’d also like Battle Roar too while we’re at it.
You're basically getting an alternative to ball of lightning with the new mist form skill, so I think its fair if sorcs get a burst heal as a morph of ward so that they have an instant cast heal not tied to pets at the cost of giving up their shield.
They have one, it’s called Combat Prayer.
I'm sorry but combat prayer? The same heal that heals for 20-25% less while costing 10% more resources per cast because its AoE not ST, that forces you into running the weaker restoration staff on the back bar (that got nerfed heavily in U34) instead of the superior options of sword and shield, bow or ice staff? That heal is what sorcs should be forced to use instead of having a proper one in class?
Also, you were one of the most vocal calling for plar to receive buffs to PotL, jabs, etc so I hope you're not going to be a hypocrite now by still calling for buffs to plars damage. After all, plars weakness is supposed to be damage.
Plar is supposed to rely on sets and out of class skills to try and build to overcome that weakness, so if that's the case then it should have beam nerfed to 300-400% scaling and base damage reduced by 50% or have it start its scaling at 20% instead of 50% and javelin should no longer ignore resistances and have a much slower travel time to allow better counter play. Javelin should also have its potential to desync enemy players removed since that is a bug that is being abused by plars to essentially 1 shot enemies. That logic also means that PotL and jabs are in a good spot now, they no longer overcome plars weakness of damage and as such they should not need any buffs at all right?
Fair's fair, according to your logic, if sorc is not allowed to have heals without building entirely for them and giving up on everything else in the process while also having to deal with game breaking downsides to using their class abilities, then plars should not be allowed to have damage without building entirely for it without giving up everything else in the process and without gamebreaking downsides to their damage abilities.
Or, you know, we could just accept that the devs stated principle was to allow all classes to be able to fill any roll and players to be allowed to play the way they want on their chosen class and call for buffs/fixes/improvements to all underperforming classes, instead of trying to step all over each other which only serves to prevent any class from getting the buffs/fixes/improvements they require to make them equal to the classes that are currently performing strongly.
Sorry if I came off irritable with you earlier @Turtle_Bot in regards to the comment about Combat Prayer, I just can’t get behind all of this talk about taking the cast time away from Dark Deal, or how the Twilight Matriarch’s heal is bad even though they quite literally stripped our Breath of Life, to give it to that bird.
A better argument that could be pushed for, would be to ask for a single-target morph of Blessing of Protection, while yes I know that being pushed into different weapons feels rough, it’s nothing new to Sorcerer, Healing Ward was always the go-to for the class.
If players using a Sorcerer want better heals, they can use a Restoration Staff or a set that provides healing, or if they want more mitigation, because they refuse to shield stack, there are countless sets that provide that, all while still providing the class enough damage to nuke other players.
In regards to Templar, I am completely fine with where Jabs and POTL is currently, where I believe Templar’s actual problems reside, are with their support abilities, I am completely fine with having to use two offensive sets to make my class abilities hit as hard as they need to. If Templar strips even one offensive set for whatever reason, the entire class suffers, which is fair, as I’ve mentioned, and Kevin’s mentioned, each class has a need.
Templar and Necromancer have a weakness of damage, yet only Templar has two skill lines devoted to damage, resulting in a complete contradiction towards this identity.
I would actually be fine with a single target self healing morph of combat prayer that had the same (or maybe a 95% of) tooltip as resistant flesh/offering/HtD for the same cost as those abilities.
Sorcerer was actually in an enjoyable spot back in U33 (before resto got heavily nerfed for the sins of ball groups and their heal stacking), it definitely wasn't overpowered, but with resto being in a good spot, it provided an option for sorcs to partially overcome their weakness of healing and play with the other classes in a fair fight without resorting to some cheesy mechanics/tactics.
It's why I'd like to see a class heal for sorcerer, My time playing in U33 was proof enough that a self burst heal for the class would bring it up to roughly right below wardens current spot, definitely nowhere near as strong as NB or DK, but it would at least be fun and enjoyable for PvP again.
I'm also willing to make a compromise for the heal and make 1 morph of the ward into a burst heal, that way sorcs cannot stack shields with healing unless they run pets/dark conversion with their numerous downsides.
Also, something to note on pets in PvP, as I'm not sure if you're seeing this on console yet or not, but heavy attack builds have made their way back into pvp again and people are targeting sorc pets to proc the tri-focus passive and hit empower buffed heavy attacks on enemy players for 30k+ ticks, so not only are pets a liability via plaguebreak/dark convergence, etc they are also now a heavy liability via those heavy attack builds that can sit on keep walls or behind zergs and wipe entire groups just because a sorc had a pet active.3 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »
Essence Thief is a dueling set, and doesn’t provide more damage, just more sustain and healing, something you have zero need for on Templar.
You would also never run that in Cyrodiil or Imperial City as you can’t play fetch while constantly moving.
If you’re talking dueling, [snip] nothing you could do about it in Essence Thief while running Draugrkin and Relequen with a Vateshran Staff and Zaans.
Just an FYI, it provides a unique +10% damage done buffEdited by ZOS_Lunar on February 23, 2023 2:03PM0 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »Essence Thief is a dueling set, and doesn’t provide more damage, just more sustain and healing, something you have zero need for on Templar.
You would also never run that in Cyrodiil or Imperial City as you can’t play fetch while constantly moving.
If you’re talking dueling, [snip] nothing you could do about it in Essence Thief while running Draugrkin and Relequen with a Vateshran Staff and Zaans.
I run Essence Thief on every stam build in Cyro, IC, or BG. Damage is not everything.
Essence Thief provides 3 times the utility of Clever, doesn't require you to use a pot, and can be kept at 100% uptime depending on situations (average is ~80%).
I'm not saying Clever is bad. I'm saying Clever is not as efficient as Essence Thief.
Edited by ZOS_Lunar on February 23, 2023 2:03PMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc2 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is the tooltip of Dizzying Swing with Essence + Riptide + Balorgh + BRP DW on stamsorc:
This is the tooltip of Dizzying Swing with Clever + Riptide + Balorgh + BRP DW on stamsorc:
50 more tooltip dmg, more regen, more healing, and more uptime.
On a stamsorc Clever is not as good, but I see where you're coming from though since you main Templar.Edited by StaticWave on February 23, 2023 6:02AMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc2 -
Aces-High-82✭✭✭✭The_Titan_Tim wrote: »
Also, I keep hearing how horrible the burst heal of the class is, yet Dark Deal is one of the most busted abilities in the game. The counterplay is it’s interruptible yet in actual gameplay, it’s next to impossible to interrupt it, allowing ALL iterations of Sorcerer to nearly endlessly cast all of their abilities without a single heavy attack.
I’ll trade you my garbage Honor the Dead for your Dark Deal any day of the week.
What?
...
Are you aware it's a static value affected by Battlespirit?1 -
The_Titan_Tim✭✭✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »The_Titan_Tim wrote: »
Also, I keep hearing how horrible the burst heal of the class is, yet Dark Deal is one of the most busted abilities in the game. The counterplay is it’s interruptible yet in actual gameplay, it’s next to impossible to interrupt it, allowing ALL iterations of Sorcerer to nearly endlessly cast all of their abilities without a single heavy attack.
I’ll trade you my garbage Honor the Dead for your Dark Deal any day of the week.
What?
...
Are you aware it's a static value affected by Battlespirit?
Yes, I play every class, although I tend to gravitate back to my Templar.0