PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

StaticWave

AdamLAD wrote: »

Don't shoot the messenger people. Kevin is doing a fantastic job. It's the dev team that continues to baffle us. There's one noticeable quote that Kevin relayed, and that's a class can not be good at everything. That's a good thought in principle and should be adhered to. Unfortunately there's 3 classes that can do everything. Nightblade, Dragonknight and Warden. All of them are fantastic in PvE and fantastic in PvP, they can practically do all roles. Tank, heal, and especially DPS in PvE. Looking from a PvP perspective. There's literally nothing these classes do not have. They literally have everything they need. Dk literally had unlimited stamina sustain with ash cloud. These 3 classes have everything at there fingertips when it comes to PvP. So it's clear to me the devs DO NOT play PvP.. All are mobile due to how easy it is to stack speed, all have damage, all have great sustain, all have great healing and mitigation. These 5 core functions in PvP make them have everything more or less. It's all you need for PvP. Sorcerer has terrible sustain, terrible mitigation and terrible healing and terrible damage (Terrible damage is only due the fact we have to run so much resistance and sustain) so 4 out of the 5 main functions in PvP we don't have. And to add insult to injury our only mobility skill, Streak has ramping cost.

No one plays DPS Warden or NB in PVE unfortunately lol. DK and Necro are the only 2 classes in PvE rn

Turtle_Bot

Tannus15 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lastly, we want to reiterate the notion of classes having strengths and weaknesses. Sorcerer, like every other class, cannot be good at everything. This is part of building class identity. There are ways for players to bridge the gap through gear, consumables, etc. That does not negate us from addressing problem areas, but it does mean there will be times where elements of a class will struggle compared to others. That is okay and a part of building unique gameplay experiences.

It would be really nice to know what the dev's see as each classes strengths and weaknesses and to know if I'm basically trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole.

We, the community, continue to push for changes to our favourite class, but if that's never going to happen because it doesn't fit the vision of the dev team, then the reality is we should probably just change class and move on.

I too would like to know what sorcerers strengths are supposed to be, the class has nothing that another class cannot do better

StaticWave

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

francesinhalover

Revert necro synergy changes.

Pelanora

.
"Interesting.

vDSR last boss HM damage rankings

the top 100 dps is made up of

18 necro
6 sorcs
8 templar
0 warden
1 nightblade
67 dragon knights

Xalvakka HM is worse.

Lord Falgravn HM is pretty much all necro and DK

Nahviintaas HM

It's all the same. Overwhelming numbers of DKs followed by a decent number of necro's and a handful of the rest."

---

Is this it? Is this the answer?

Zos want some hard classes, and an easy, enhance-accessibility, raise the floor- class? Succeed at endgame, be happy, sub-forever, class?

We think things should be balanced, we compare classes to the best-in-school class, but thats for nought if zos wants to provide an easy to play class. The others will only work within some theory, whatever it is, of that class.

So if that's right, no other class will ever catch up to dk, will ever be best at something compared to it, the only hope is to argue for 'within class' improvements (if we could figure out what that class WAS in the heads of the dev.s).

Glantir

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Regarding Sorcerers and their lack of unique buff/debuffs, this is intentional and there are no current plans to change this. Sorcerers do have some unique abilities in their kit, like silences. However, not locking Sorcerer into having unique buffs/debuff allows for more class diversity in group environments.

For many groups in PvE, the only reason to have a Sorcerer is the access to Minor Prophecy. Good job not locking Sorc into unique buffs/debuffs .

Just look at the statistics others posted here....

Sorcs are good in Single Target damage but not so good to close the gap for the missing AoE, and AoE is very important in many fights so that people mostly prefer DK's or other classes.

In PvP Sorcs could have a strength in Single Target damage, but forcing us into max Magicka cancel this strength ...

Turtle_Bot

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we took your feedback to the combat team regarding the state of Sorcerer. We have a few comments to share.

We know survivability has been a concern with Sorcerer, given the feedback received and some of the data. We increased Sorcerer survivability this update by giving a sizable buff to shields. We'll continue evaluating and investigating as we go live as well.

We've also seen feedback regarding Pet vs non-Pet builds. Specifically, wanting more options for non-Pet builds. While there will be no changes to this in U37, we want to acknowledge this sentiment and the team is monitoring this. We want to make sure when thinking about this and reviewing feedback, we are keeping class presentation for Pet Sorcerer in mind while also allowing for class diversity for those who want to play non-Pet Sorcerer.

Regarding Sorcerers and their lack of unique buff/debuffs, this is intentional and there are no current plans to change this. Sorcerers do have some unique abilities in their kit, like silences. However, not locking Sorcerer into having unique buffs/debuff allows for more class diversity in group environments.

Lastly, we want to reiterate the notion of classes having strengths and weaknesses. Sorcerer, like every other class, cannot be good at everything. This is part of building class identity. There are ways for players to bridge the gap through gear, consumables, etc. That does not negate us from addressing problem areas, but it does mean there will be times where elements of a class will struggle compared to others. That is okay and a part of building unique gameplay experiences.

My thoughts are too long to put into a single reply post, so I will instead link you here where I have made a thread topic explaining the issues with sorcerer in more detail, which will hopefully help you guys to understand why you got the responses you got to your proposed changes for the sorcerer class.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/627997/feedback-regarding-response-by-the-dev-team-and-their-apparent-vision-of-sorcerer/p1?new=1

The TL//DR of the thread is as follows:

- Shields have too many disadvantages compared to heals once the rest of the game is taken into account, especially in PvP where the burst damage comes much more frequently than in PvE where there is plenty of time to re-apply the shield without risk of being burst down while the shield is down.

- Everything has been given to pets for years, while anything not for pets doesn't last more than 1 or 2 patches before its heavily nerfed again

- Sorcs don't need, nor did they ask for unique buffs/debuffs, what was asked for and what is needed, was access to staple buffs such as major prophecy/savagery and major or minor breach, a tidy up of clunky and outdated passives/mechanics and a proper heal not tied to pets or a sustain ability.
- Silence is nowhere near as strong/useful as it used to be with hard CCs such as stuns/knockbacks/fears being much stronger and more reliable and as such it should not be used as a reason to hold back the class from receiving an update to its named buff/debuff access, passives and a burst heal, especially when all of its other options are already provided for by other stronger classes/abilities.

- I agree that all classes should have strengths and weaknesses, but lately it seems like DK and NB have almost no weaknesses at all (at least none that cannot be overcome by slotting 1 or 2 out of class abilities), warden is in a decent spot, but sorc, plar and cro are left with very few, if any strengths and have many weaknesses that cannot be overcome without giving up far too much to do so.

Jaimeh

master_vanargand wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin
Why are you ignoring "Nightblade"?

"Concealed Weapon" has "your damage done is increased by 10%" and "increasing your Movement Speed by 15%".
"Surprise Attack" has "the Sundered status effect".
Don't you feel "game balance is bad" comparing these two?

Those of us who have been using "Stamina Nightblade" for many years find it painful to slot "never-used skills" and despair of having to use "Silver Shards" as spam.

Agreed ^ StamNB DPS are pigeonholed into slotting the skill just for the passive, losing bar space, and being forced to use a non-class skill as spammable, and generally hitting pretty weak for all the trouble of the rotation. I really wish they rework this skill, it limits both mag and stam specs so much now. Besides the damage being meh, we don't have a lot of cleave, there's no reason to bring it to a trial, hence the zero presence of NB DDs in the top 100 results for trials in ESO logs. Imagine... a class tailored for damage being reduced to this.

AD42

"The necromancer was not conceived as a killer of large groups of players". At the same time dk. "DK needs Major Berserk".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3AZ_OWnhi0

Aces-High-82

Jaimeh wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin
Why are you ignoring "Nightblade"?

"Concealed Weapon" has "your damage done is increased by 10%" and "increasing your Movement Speed by 15%".
"Surprise Attack" has "the Sundered status effect".
Don't you feel "game balance is bad" comparing these two?

Those of us who have been using "Stamina Nightblade" for many years find it painful to slot "never-used skills" and despair of having to use "Silver Shards" as spam.

Agreed ^ StamNB DPS are pigeonholed into slotting the skill just for the passive, losing bar space, and being forced to use a non-class skill as spammable, and generally hitting pretty weak for all the trouble of the rotation. I really wish they rework this skill, it limits both mag and stam specs so much now. Besides the damage being meh, we don't have a lot of cleave, there's no reason to bring it to a trial, hence the zero presence of NB DDs in the top 100 results for trials in ESO logs. Imagine... a class tailored for damage being reduced to this.

That's what you get if a dev is tailoring his fav pvp class to single target burst damage.

jaws343

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Solariken

Templar Backlash is bugged and being hit twice by Battle Spirit.

IF YOU DO NOTHING ELSE PLEASE AT LEAST FIX THIS

ForumBully

Solariken wrote: »

Templar Backlash is bugged and being hit twice by Battle Spirit.

IF YOU DO NOTHING ELSE PLEASE AT LEAST FIX THIS

Being hit by battle spirit twice is a fun mechanic and part of the class identity. After all, not all classes can be effected only once by battle spirit.
We know this might be frustrating, and we'll continue to take a look at it over the next 12 months.

StaticWave

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

phantasmalD

Tannus15 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The combat team is always looking at data from various points of play (PvE, PvP, low-end to high-end damage parse, group content and solo play, etc.) and collective feedback across the board to make informed balanced adjustments. Many of the previous adjustments to Templar were directly made off of those points.
.

Interesting.

vDSR last boss HM damage rankings

Interesting indeed.
Stats are a fascinating beast.

Despite the over representation of DKs, they are apparently not the top performing class.

(A big spit in the face of all those 'Templar trash-tier' posts, apparently (based on these trial stats at least,) Templar is a solid A-tier class at worst, and is perfectly capable of outperforming DKs.)

I think referring to class usage stats as evidence that classes are unbalanced is a bit flawed, as class usage is fueled by the perception that there's an S tier/broken class.
People think class is broken -> they use it more -> class is used more -> this make people think that class is broken -> they use it more. It's a self fueling cycle.

The Solo Iron Atronach parses paint a very interesting picture.
The top 6 parses by Yezzll probably can be ignored, it seems something went wrong when submitting those times as they are highly unrealistic and wildly out of range of the rest of the parses. Taking that into account we can start at #7, which iiiis... a Magplar. Followed by some sorcerers.
You have to go down till #15 (#9, when adjusted) to find a stam DK and #26 (#20) for a mag DK.
The playing field looks a lot more even, based on this.

I'd hazard the guess that if DKs are really overperforming in a trial setting, than that's not because the class on an individual level is massively broken, but because all the buffs that specifically target Flame damage, like Encratis and Engulfing Flames.

Thecompton73

AD42 wrote: »

"The necromancer was not conceived as a killer of large groups of players". At the same time dk. "DK needs Major Berserk".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3AZ_OWnhi0

This just proves what I said before about the nerfs to Harmony and Boneyard, neither are what's really allowing Necro's to blow up big groups. Dark Convergence or Rush of Agony are the true problem, if the class kit doesn't synergize as well as Necro or NB that's fine, combined with Master 2H and Vicious Death/Plaguebreak they turn any class into an effective bomber.
Maybe after another year or two the Devs will have collected enough data to realize AOE pull sets are horrible for the gameplay in Cyrodiil.

Thecompton73

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

axi

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Don't shoot the messenger people. Kevin is doing a fantastic job. It's the dev team that continues to baffle us. There's one noticeable quote that Kevin relayed, and that's a class can not be good at everything. That's a good thought in principle and should be adhered to. Unfortunately there's 3 classes that can do everything. Nightblade, Dragonknight and Warden. All of them are fantastic in PvE and fantastic in PvP, they can practically do all roles. Tank, heal, and especially DPS in PvE. Looking from a PvP perspective. There's literally nothing these classes do not have. They literally have everything they need. Dk literally had unlimited stamina sustain with ash cloud. These 3 classes have everything at there fingertips when it comes to PvP. So it's clear to me the devs DO NOT play PvP.. All are mobile due to how easy it is to stack speed, all have damage, all have great sustain, all have great healing and mitigation. These 5 core functions in PvP make them have everything more or less. It's all you need for PvP. Sorcerer has terrible sustain, terrible mitigation and terrible healing and terrible damage (Terrible damage is only due the fact we have to run so much resistance and sustain) so 4 out of the 5 main functions in PvP we don't have. And to add insult to injury our only mobility skill, Streak has ramping cost.

No one plays DPS Warden or NB in PVE unfortunately lol. DK and Necro are the only 2 classes in PvE rn

That's kinda overdramatic. Not everyone runs in a scorepushing or trifecta progressing group. In mid game there is plenty of wardens and nbs especially that warden is now one of the best classers for one bar heavy attack setups. Yeah nb and warden are not meta DPS but that doesn't mean noone plays them as DD in PvE.

K9002

phantasmalD wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The combat team is always looking at data from various points of play (PvE, PvP, low-end to high-end damage parse, group content and solo play, etc.) and collective feedback across the board to make informed balanced adjustments. Many of the previous adjustments to Templar were directly made off of those points.
.

Interesting.

vDSR last boss HM damage rankings

Interesting indeed.
Stats are a fascinating beast.

Despite the over representation of DKs, they are apparently not the top performing class.

(A big spit in the face of all those 'Templar trash-tier' posts, apparently (based on these trial stats at least,) Templar is a solid A-tier class at worst, and is perfectly capable of outperforming DKs.)

I think referring to class usage stats as evidence that classes are unbalanced is a bit flawed, as class usage is fueled by the perception that there's an S tier/broken class.
People think class is broken -> they use it more -> class is used more -> this make people think that class is broken -> they use it more. It's a self fueling cycle.

Take a look at damage contribution by source. For DKs no more than 18% of total damage comes from proc sets such as Relequen and 45-50% of it is sourced in-class. For Templars, 19-21% of the damage comes from proc sets and only around 42-45% comes from the class skills. Every DK DoT contributes 4.5% to 7.5% damage and additionally applies burning and poison status effects, which also happen to be stronger thanks to one of DK passives. Templar DoTs have a much lower share, at 2.2% to 4% and no secondary damage outside of negligible overcharged effect. Sorcerer is in a similar spot, hovering at around 40% of damage coming from the class. It's even worse if you look at Necromancers - 30% tops. The one Nightblade in top 100 can't even reach 30% mark while his sets do 23% of the damage.

To me, this suggests that DK has a more reliable class kit and doesn't need to look for damage elsewhere. Engulfing Flames and Encratis are a problem too. People had been requesting skills and item sets that would increase other types of damage for years. Instead we keep getting more joke sets like the one that spawns sweetrolls.

Stx

@ZOS_Kevin

Thank you for your comments. In my opinion any communication is better than none, even if players don’t like the results.

Can I ask you if the team has considered the multitude of feedback regarding Templar jabs specifically, including both the damage output and the new animation that was added. Are there any plans to improve the animation in the future? Or possibly update the other aedric spear abilities to at least match it?

Yukonicus

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Regarding Sorcerers and their lack of unique buff/debuffs, this is intentional and there are no current plans to change this. Sorcerers do have some unique abilities in their kit, like silences. However, not locking Sorcerer into having unique buffs/debuff allows for more class diversity in group environments.

While I slightly understand where you're coming from, at the moment Sorcs don't really bring anything to the table for higher end content. Anything they bring is trumped by other classes doing it better. Silence, while neat in concept isn't really useful in vet hm trials due to it not really doing anything since most abilities ignore the Negate ult. The root abilities a sorc has is never used at higher end content because you want to let the tank group adds together and tanks have a better root in those scenarios than Sorcs do. One thing I think that would be neat to explore is instead of Power Surge letting the Sorc heal others it could provide a buff for say, 20-40 secs in say a 10m range, that allows people to heal for 3-5% of the dmg done every 3-5 seconds. This would allow a Sorc to provide a unique buff to others that is also not to much. With it being such a low percent and every few seconds this would somewhat relieve healers but not be to overtuned. Doing something like that could help more groups push higher end content due to the breathing room of the survivability it would provide and let Sorcs have a unique thing they bring to the table.

Tannus15

phantasmalD wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The combat team is always looking at data from various points of play (PvE, PvP, low-end to high-end damage parse, group content and solo play, etc.) and collective feedback across the board to make informed balanced adjustments. Many of the previous adjustments to Templar were directly made off of those points.
.

Interesting.

vDSR last boss HM damage rankings

Interesting indeed.
Stats are a fascinating beast.

Despite the over representation of DKs, they are apparently not the top performing class.

(A big spit in the face of all those 'Templar trash-tier' posts, apparently (based on these trial stats at least,) Templar is a solid A-tier class at worst, and is perfectly capable of outperforming DKs.)

I think referring to class usage stats as evidence that classes are unbalanced is a bit flawed, as class usage is fueled by the perception that there's an S tier/broken class.
People think class is broken -> they use it more -> class is used more -> this make people think that class is broken -> they use it more. It's a self fueling cycle.

The Solo Iron Atronach parses paint a very interesting picture.
The top 6 parses by Yezzll probably can be ignored, it seems something went wrong when submitting those times as they are highly unrealistic and wildly out of range of the rest of the parses. Taking that into account we can start at #7, which iiiis... a Magplar. Followed by some sorcerers.
You have to go down till #15 (#9, when adjusted) to find a stam DK and #26 (#20) for a mag DK.
The playing field looks a lot more even, based on this.

I'd hazard the guess that if DKs are really overperforming in a trial setting, than that's not because the class on an individual level is massively broken, but because all the buffs that specifically target Flame damage, like Encratis and Engulfing Flames.

This is exactly the problem and I think where the dev team have fallen into a trap of balancing PvE via dummy.

The dummy doesn't care about cleave or class buffs and debuffs. Sorcs looks great on the dummy compared to content however the majority of their skills are single target direct damage and have no other benefit.

DK's look average on the dummy but almost all of the skills they are using are AOE or are dots and proc burning.

here is an example of DK dps on Yolnah HM, probably the most single target fight in the game




here is sorc dps for the same fight



for the DK the 2nd highest dps skill is FOO. that hits multiple targets, procs burning and the more enemies the better is scales. if you need to stop and res or heavy attack for resources it continues to do damage.

the sorc on the other hand you have light attack, ele weapon and frag proc. the moment you stop casting skills the damage vanishes. it doesn't scale with more enemies. if you have to heavy attack for resources all of the highest damage skills are just gone.

the dummy doesn't care about this. you have enough sustain to never heavy attack the dummy.
there is no reason to block or stop spamming skills so it doesn't matter that a higher % of damage is from single target direct damage skills.
there is only one target so cleave from skills doesn't mean anything.

look at the sorc skill bar



where is the flex spot? hurricane maybe?

dk skill bar



if the dk really needed a heal or a shield or just to run a fight specific skill they have up to 3 flex spots in the back bar. carve, degen and camo hunter. this allows them to adjust to each fight as needed without losing too much dps.
they can run tri pots or heroism pots as they have easy access to major brutality / sorcery / prophecy / savagery.
they simply have more options.

none of this matters on a dummy parse.
this all looks "fine" if you use that as your primary balance metric.

Here is what a DK looks like in a cleave heavy fight, oaxilsto



How can a sorc every compete with that? talons, foo, standard, eruption. There is no sorc equivalent because they are all single target direct damage!

If classes were balanced around what they specialise in then sorcs would be smoking everyone on the dummy.
it's literally their perfect fight conditions. instead they are within a few % points.

Poss

I came back to the game about 2 months ago after 6 years away and I’m saddened what has become of the sorc. I have other toons I’ve slowly kitted out with more recent gear including a DK but I always find myself going back to my sorc. It’s my main, my crafter, my baby. But my goodness it’s not in a good place right now.

I joined a trials guild, when I told them my main dd was a sorcerer and the character I was most familiar with, they said they only ever run one sorc, sometimes none and took my discord trials ping role away. This is a class that 6 years ago was king of the meta. I get balance changes are a thing, I completely support balance changes, it keeps the game fresh but what you’ve done to the sorc over the last few years is quite frankly ludicrous.

As for pvp, running around melting people with a DK is fun, but again I find myself always going back to my sorc. But it hits like a wet noodle (doesn’t help that we’re currently in a terribly irritating tank meta), has terrible burst, terrible sustain all their skills are either redundant or crazy expensive and their survivability is nonexistent. You’re forced to use gear that stacks armour bonuses at the expensive of much needed offensive buffs. The class is in desperate need of some work, it simply isn’t viable right now.

Take a look at YouTube, every content creator will always preface a sorcerer build video with the same message: sorcerer is bad, don’t play it but if you insist, here’s a build.

Anyway, that turned out to be a lot longer than I planned but TLDR: sorcerer is in a bad place and it’s quite clear which class the devs main

Pelanora

Tannus15 wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The combat team is always looking at data from various points of play (PvE, PvP, low-end to high-end damage parse, group content and solo play, etc.) and collective feedback across the board to make informed balanced adjustments. Many of the previous adjustments to Templar were directly made off of those points.
.

Interesting.

vDSR last boss HM damage rankings

Interesting indeed.
Stats are a fascinating beast.

Despite the over representation of DKs, they are apparently not the top performing class.

(A big spit in the face of all those 'Templar trash-tier' posts, apparently (based on these trial stats at least,) Templar is a solid A-tier class at worst, and is perfectly capable of outperforming DKs.)

I think referring to class usage stats as evidence that classes are unbalanced is a bit flawed, as class usage is fueled by the perception that there's an S tier/broken class.
People think class is broken -> they use it more -> class is used more -> this make people think that class is broken -> they use it more. It's a self fueling cycle.

The Solo Iron Atronach parses paint a very interesting picture.
The top 6 parses by Yezzll probably can be ignored, it seems something went wrong when submitting those times as they are highly unrealistic and wildly out of range of the rest of the parses. Taking that into account we can start at #7, which iiiis... a Magplar. Followed by some sorcerers.
You have to go down till #15 (#9, when adjusted) to find a stam DK and #26 (#20) for a mag DK.
The playing field looks a lot more even, based on this.

I'd hazard the guess that if DKs are really overperforming in a trial setting, than that's not because the class on an individual level is massively broken, but because all the buffs that specifically target Flame damage, like Encratis and Engulfing Flames.

This is exactly the problem and I think where the dev team have fallen into a trap of balancing PvE via dummy.

The dummy doesn't care about cleave or class buffs and debuffs. Sorcs looks great on the dummy compared to content however the majority of their skills are single target direct damage and have no other benefit.

DK's look average on the dummy but almost all of the skills they are using are AOE or are dots and proc burning.

here is an example of DK dps on Yolnah HM, probably the most single target fight in the game




here is sorc dps for the same fight



for the DK the 2nd highest dps skill is FOO. that hits multiple targets, procs burning and the more enemies the better is scales. if you need to stop and res or heavy attack for resources it continues to do damage.

the sorc on the other hand you have light attack, ele weapon and frag proc. the moment you stop casting skills the damage vanishes. it doesn't scale with more enemies. if you have to heavy attack for resources all of the highest damage skills are just gone.

the dummy doesn't care about this. you have enough sustain to never heavy attack the dummy.
there is no reason to block or stop spamming skills so it doesn't matter that a higher % of damage is from single target direct damage skills.
there is only one target so cleave from skills doesn't mean anything.

look at the sorc skill bar



where is the flex spot? hurricane maybe?

dk skill bar



if the dk really needed a heal or a shield or just to run a fight specific skill they have up to 3 flex spots in the back bar. carve, degen and camo hunter. this allows them to adjust to each fight as needed without losing too much dps.
they can run tri pots or heroism pots as they have easy access to major brutality / sorcery / prophecy / savagery.
they simply have more options.

none of this matters on a dummy parse.
this all looks "fine" if you use that as your primary balance metric.

Here is what a DK looks like in a cleave heavy fight, oaxilsto



How can a sorc every compete with that? talons, foo, standard, eruption. There is no sorc equivalent because they are all single target direct damage!

If classes were balanced around what they specialise in then sorcs would be smoking everyone on the dummy.
it's literally their perfect fight conditions. instead they are within a few % points.

This is important. Quoting it so they don't miss it.

StaticWave

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

Actually thanks for bringing that scenario up because that’s what I was able to say for my next point.

Yes, shields are weaker at bringing someone out of execute range. That is why I said shield and healing have their own benefits and drawbacks.

That is also why you should include 1-2 HoTs in your build. Hybridization is an amazing thing.

StaticWave

axi wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

Don't shoot the messenger people. Kevin is doing a fantastic job. It's the dev team that continues to baffle us. There's one noticeable quote that Kevin relayed, and that's a class can not be good at everything. That's a good thought in principle and should be adhered to. Unfortunately there's 3 classes that can do everything. Nightblade, Dragonknight and Warden. All of them are fantastic in PvE and fantastic in PvP, they can practically do all roles. Tank, heal, and especially DPS in PvE. Looking from a PvP perspective. There's literally nothing these classes do not have. They literally have everything they need. Dk literally had unlimited stamina sustain with ash cloud. These 3 classes have everything at there fingertips when it comes to PvP. So it's clear to me the devs DO NOT play PvP.. All are mobile due to how easy it is to stack speed, all have damage, all have great sustain, all have great healing and mitigation. These 5 core functions in PvP make them have everything more or less. It's all you need for PvP. Sorcerer has terrible sustain, terrible mitigation and terrible healing and terrible damage (Terrible damage is only due the fact we have to run so much resistance and sustain) so 4 out of the 5 main functions in PvP we don't have. And to add insult to injury our only mobility skill, Streak has ramping cost.

No one plays DPS Warden or NB in PVE unfortunately lol. DK and Necro are the only 2 classes in PvE rn

That's kinda overdramatic. Not everyone runs in a scorepushing or trifecta progressing group. In mid game there is plenty of wardens and nbs especially that warden is now one of the best classers for one bar heavy attack setups. Yeah nb and warden are not meta DPS but that doesn't mean noone plays them as DD in PvE.

Well that just means there are more casuals than try hards.

Thecompton73

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

Actually thanks for bringing that scenario up because that’s what I was able to say for my next point.

Yes, shields are weaker at bringing someone out of execute range. That is why I said shield and healing have their own benefits and drawbacks.

That is also why you should include 1-2 HoTs in your build. Hybridization is an amazing thing.

That's a losing battle. Two hots are not going to do enough healing quick enough to get you out of execute before your shield pops and you lose even more health. By that logic using two Hots would mean the person with the burst heal should never drop to execute range in the first place either.
Wait until next patch then try using two hots and a shield when you're at low health and Snake in the Stars procs on you. Even if you wind up getting more healing than damage it's going to be such a little amount it leaves you in execute for the full four seconds.

StaticWave

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

Actually thanks for bringing that scenario up because that’s what I was able to say for my next point.

Yes, shields are weaker at bringing someone out of execute range. That is why I said shield and healing have their own benefits and drawbacks.

That is also why you should include 1-2 HoTs in your build. Hybridization is an amazing thing.

That's a losing battle. Two hots are not going to do enough healing quick enough to get you out of execute before your shield pops and you lose even more health. By that logic using two Hots would mean the person with the burst heal should never drop to execute range in the first place either.

I play a stamsorc and I get out of execute range with 2 HoTs and no burst heal or a shield. Are you telling me a magsorc with 2 HoTs and a shield can’t do the same? Lol

StaticWave

I’m sorry but as a stamsorc main with no shield, no burst heal, and only Crit Surge + Vigor for HoTs I just can’t take magsorc mains seriously when they keep saying how weak their class is when stamsorcs have been begging for the same strength magsorcs have

Melzo

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

Actually thanks for bringing that scenario up because that’s what I was able to say for my next point.

Yes, shields are weaker at bringing someone out of execute range. That is why I said shield and healing have their own benefits and drawbacks.

That is also why you should include 1-2 HoTs in your build. Hybridization is an amazing thing.

That's a losing battle. Two hots are not going to do enough healing quick enough to get you out of execute before your shield pops and you lose even more health. By that logic using two Hots would mean the person with the burst heal should never drop to execute range in the first place either.
Wait until next patch then try using two hots and a shield when you're at low health and Snake in the Stars procs on you. Even if you wind up getting more healing than damage it's going to be such a little amount it leaves you in execute for the full four seconds.

Explain to me why powerful mana shields are the only gameplay for you as a sorcerer? The gameplay that is implied when using two hot heals and a shield in aggressive gameplay when you literally spam the shield and attack the enemy, healing due to crits and passive from the first branch. Vigor is only needed if you have lost a lot of health. In fact, you have 3 sources of healing and a mana shield. Using a shield means an extra temporary health bar for other healing sources to work, and you can spam a mana shield very often that any other class can't. Have you ever seen a dk run around and use his healing 5 times like that?

I don't quite understand the arguments of the sorcerer, since the principle of protection and the gameplay of the sorcerers is fundamentally different from any other classes. Well, you will get your direct healing for the place of the shield, but will it be better for you ?? Personally, I don't care too much about this, since I understand that the magical sorcerer will get very little benefit from it. Or rather, you will have to rely heavily on defensive sets, which reduces your damage, or play through medium armor, which naturally benefits the stam sorcerer and not the magic one.

I made a little mistake with the sorcerer not 3 sources but 4. Since there is a direct healing that gives mana. You won't get healed in a block, but breaking away from the enemy and using a mana shield and then healing or even without a mana shield is pretty good.