PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

gariondavey

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

Sure, and I'm fine with that.
If the statement was "nb is as fast as sorc but with more freedom for skill slots and weapon choices" then I wouldn't have said anything.
What was said, however, was not completely honest and correct.

Chilly-McFreeze

gariondavey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

Sure, and I'm fine with that.
If the statement was "nb is as fast as sorc but with more freedom for skill slots and weapon choices" then I wouldn't have said anything.
What was said, however, was not completely honest and correct.

Now that you've found out that every class can reach the speed cap easily and when you're done hanging up on semantics we might can come back to the gist of the statement: that (stam) sorc is lacking behind NB in burst damage, healing and general skill design. Do you agree with that sentiment or do you see sorc ahead of NB in any of those departments?

DC137

REVERT Harmony change please my necro is nearly finished after a LOT of grinding!

katorga

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

"Thanks for the feedback, but we already looked at our spreadsheet, and decided that 3 classes should be limited for identity as you can't have everything, unless you are the other 3 classes. Because math"

No offense to Kevin. Just the messenger; but that appears to be the message.

gariondavey wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

For example this is one of the builds I run in different armor combinations.

1) 5 Heavy + 1 medium + 1 light, all infused jewelries



2) 5 light + 1 medium + 1 heavy, all protective jewelries



3) 3 light + 3 medium + 1 heavy, 2 protective 1 infused




IMO unless you plan on using Evasion, the 3rd combination is the best because you're only sacrificing 2.5k HP, 2.3k armor, and ~150 weapon dmg to gain 2% crit chance, 4% crit damage + crit healing, 2k pen, and a bunch of other passives from both light and medium armor. These are much better than strictly armor because armor is so easily countered nowadays with Corrosive and easily accessible pen. Furthermore, Undeath makes heavy armor not as strong as before.

You're using a very particular build that honestly is not wide spread . No single Sea Serpent Coil with swift. No Maras. Low overall resist and crit resist low speed. Honestly whats probably keeping you alive is engine guardian and maybe Ball over streak? Wouldn't ever run that build myself.

I also have 26k armor back bar, 36k max HP, and daedric trickery buffs. Major Protection/Vitality/Mending are amazing.

What class do you play specifically? This build was tailored to my playstyle so it’s not exactly for everyone.

I'd say I'm homeless as far as a main is concerned. Sorc is the only one I haven't really played since update 35/36. Mostly I run brawlers though. I use Maras on pretty much everything lol

Well Mara is a meta set lol. Most people run Mara/Rallying Cry.

Part of the reason why I have lower resistances than normal builds (I guess 26k is low by today's standards) is because I've done so much dueling that the majority of my defense comes from blocking/rolling/streaking/using movement. This greatly affected how I play in other PvP contents.

I used to run builds with 33k+ resistances but I needed more damage so I just gradually dropped armor until I could comfortably play at my current resistances. It took a while to adapt, but I wouldn't recommend this build for someone who just got into stamsorc.

I've also done several experiments slotting this exact build on other classes and the difference is very noticeable. I hate to complain all the time, but man stamsorc is so bad defensively lol. On other classes I'm twice as tanky without putting in as much effort. I wish ZOS could just buff sorc's survivability a little bit more so we can have more options in how we play.

Last I played stamsorc much was before they made a change to crit surge. Healing with hurricane up, gave me time. It was at the time; lacking burst from pre hybrid. Selene's was popular at the time. It's been years.

Ahhh it's been awhile then. Crit chance wasn't nuked at the time. I remember hitting 40% crit quite easily.

The current stamsorc is pretty bastardized lol. Not worth playing the class in its current iteration.

Correct. Stamsorc still does what stamsorc does, but for me, i can do the same thing, better, easier using NB now. NB is now a faster class than stamsorc, with more damage, more burst and way, way better healing, with the added benefit that that NB class kit is so overloaded at this point I have ZERO dependencies on sets or weapon lines. NB does all this while wasting fewer skill slots and GCD on buffs.

How is nb faster? Minor + major is the same as sorc. Neither get unique speed increases. Sorc has streak which combined with minor + major gets you around faster than a nb could.

NB is faster because it gets to have both minor and major expedition. Minor is passive on their BiS spammable and major is secondary effect of one of their best HoTs, i.e. both are secondary passive parts of core skills that don't force the player to make a choice to when deciding to include these buffs on their build. Meanwhile sorcerer has to choose between either buff since they are only given on different morphs of the same base ability and as such, sorc cannot get both at the same time without going out of the class kit and giving up something else to do so.

Shade also allows NB to teleport in so many more ways than streak could ever hope to, it allows vertical, LoS, through walls, across impassible terrain and provides a DoT as well as maim for additional mitigation. All classes are also getting access to a pseudo ball of lightning ability with the rework to mist form, so streak is not going to be unique there either.

TL//DR: NB is faster because it gets both speed buffs passively on core skills, sorc has to choose between the buffs and cannot naturally get both at once while also needing to make room for them on non-existent bar space if it wants both, and streak is not going to be as unique anymore with the changes to mist form.

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

FWIW, I consider movement speed the best damage mitigation in the game. A large number of players are capable aoe only. They cannot reliabilty target high speed players with single target attacks.

My NB has 100% uptime of 45% movement speed, no buffing, no muss, no fuss. Unless I am using bow, I have to waste a slot on major expedition. Since durations are slow low, I have to waste four GCD compared to one GCD casting my hot on NB. . That is unbelievabley huge.

It really is noticeable.

I would pick NB based on the speed alone, but I also get access to the 2nd best burst heal, best burst damage, best spammable, invis, teleport, the highest possible crit damage, highest possible crit rate, highest possible % damage buffs, in class major evasion and snare immunity, and zero dependencies on sets, weapons, or skill lines to fill gaps in my class kit.

DK is more popular because it is tankier and easier to play, but NB is just superlative, head an shoulders over every other class, right now.

StaticWave

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

Sure, and I'm fine with that.
If the statement was "nb is as fast as sorc but with more freedom for skill slots and weapon choices" then I wouldn't have said anything.
What was said, however, was not completely honest and correct.

Now that you've found out that every class can reach the speed cap easily and when you're done hanging up on semantics we might can come back to the gist of the statement: that (stam) sorc is lacking behind NB in burst damage, healing and general skill design. Do you agree with that sentiment or do you see sorc ahead of NB in any of those departments?

As a stamsorc main, I don’t agree that stamsorc is lacking behind in burst damage. I currently run Spin2Win, Cwep, Curse, and Bound Arms as my burst and use Savagery pots for crit on my melee sorc.

Despite having inferior passives, the burst potential is definitely there and rivals a NB. Bound Arms + Curse + Cwep, when crit, deal more damage than a crit Bow Proc. A crit Bound Arms will usually hit for 8k, a crit Curse around 7k, and a crit Cwep around 6k. That’s over 20k worth of damage on a class with outdated passives. Not to mention all of that can be combo-ed with Spin2Win or a DawnBreaker to basically 1 shot most people who aren’t tanks in 1 GCD. I have plenty of videos pulling this off against players of all skill level on my youtube channel and in various discords.

Now you could argue that a NB only needs 1 ability to deal as much dmg as a Sorc’s 3 abilities, but that is an argument of class design. While both Sorc and NB are burst classes, they deliver their burst differently.

Nb delivers its burst it in 2-3 GCDs by first using Concealed Weapon/Incap to chunk away at the target, then hit a 15-18k bow to 1 shot that target. This design saves bar space and increases efficiency, but at the cost of practicality. Realistically it’s very easy to dodge a 20k bow proc and good players have no issue dodging it.

Sorc on the other hand, delivers its burst in two ways - stacking multiple abilities into 1 GCD, or spread them out over multiple GCDs like a NB. The first way is like the example I mentioned above where you can precast Cwep, cast Curse on someone, cast a full stack Bound Arms, then use an ultimate or another spammable to guarantee that all 4 abilities will land at the same time, giving your opponent no chance of recovering if he doesn’t try to block it. The second way is similar to a NB where you cast them over 2-3 GCDs, but better because the damage is spread out over 3 abilities, so if your opponent dodges Bound Arms, you will still have Curse and Cwep. That isn’t the case on NB though because if your Bow Proc misses, you’ve lost 80% of your burst.

So right there we can see that a sorc has 2 options of delivering its burst whereas a NB only has 1. This alone makes sorc better as a burst class because if you ever run into someone who likes to spam roll dodge, you don’t have to worry as much about your abilities missing since you can just switch to the 2nd way of delivering your burst, whereas a NB can’t.

katorga

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

It is not an advantage, I spend a bar slot and 1 GCD every 4 seconds, and a second slot and a GCD every 20s to match what I get with NB with 1 GCD and no bar slots (because I slot those skill regardless).

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

It is not an advantage, I spend a bar slot and 1 GCD every 4 seconds, and a second slot and a GCD every 20s to match what I get with NB with 1 GCD and no bar slots (because I slot those skill regardless).

RAT also provides snare/root cleanse and immunity while already providing Major Expedition. A NB needs to cast 2 abilities to achieve the same effect (Phantasmal Escape and Path)

Not saying Phantasmal Escape isn’t better, but just pointing out what Sorc can do and what NB can’t

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

It is not an advantage, I spend a bar slot and 1 GCD every 4 seconds, and a second slot and a GCD every 20s to match what I get with NB with 1 GCD and no bar slots (because I slot those skill regardless).

NB also has bar space issues. You want Minor Force on a NB to take full advantage of crit damage, but you’d be giving up a slot for that. People usually run Gryphon’s Ferocity for Minor Force or slot RAT and remove something else.

Front bar: Concealed, Assassin’s Will, Power Extraction, Camo Hunter, Path

Back bar: Cloak, Vigor, Healthy Offering, Phantasmal Escape, Siphonning Attacks

As you can see, a NB can’t slot Shadow Image or RAT because there’s no bar space. To slot Shadow Image, it would need to drop Path, losing out of Major Expedition. To slot RAT, it would need to drop Phantasmal Escape, losing out on Major Evasion, or Path, losing out on the heal and have to recast it every 4s to keep Minor Expedition.

Every class struggles with bar space. NB is not an exception.

katorga

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

It is not an advantage, I spend a bar slot and 1 GCD every 4 seconds, and a second slot and a GCD every 20s to match what I get with NB with 1 GCD and no bar slots (because I slot those skill regardless).

NB also has bar space issues. You want Minor Force on a NB to take full advantage of crit damage, but you’d be giving up a slot for that. People usually run Gryphon’s Ferocity for Minor Force or slot RAT and remove something else.

Ahh, the beauty of the class is you don't need minor force. You have passive 10% crit damage, so you can skip it if you want, or you have the option to go all in on crit damage, stack above the cap to compenstate for rallying cry users.

Conversely, some of my other classes are borderline unplayable without slotting race against time.

Dkrewe

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

There have been 4 or 5 "Necro needs help" feedback posts the past patch cycle alone, each one talking about different areas the class was hurting. Harmony graverobber was Necro's only real use in PvP anymore, and with it gone, Necromancer feels aimless right now.

The developer team often states they want each class to have a certain "feel", flavor, or gameplay fantasy they perform well, so I urge you to consider the question "What does a Necro play like?" with these upcoming changes.

Are they a DoT class? Well, they have 10% DoT damage and 15% DoT reduction, but they aren't really a DoT class - they only have 2 class DoTs, both AOE.

Are they a burst class? Well, blastbones is a strong burst ability, but that's only when it wants to be. Taking out Graverobber doesn't really leave necro with anything that would fit this role.

Well surely they have a unique and exciting, useful class kit right? Almost. They had usefulness in applying Major Vulnerability and Empower, but Major Vuln has many options for application now, and Empower is nearly useless in all scenarios now. Blastbones and the tethers being the exception (with the latter being situational at best) Necros likely won't use many of their other class abilities. Why? Well they need an ability that gives their major damage buff, their major crit buff, and need an on demand stun if they'll be PvPing. They also need to outsource their spammable, as Skulls underperform most of the other alternatives. Are you running proc sets? Then you should probably run even fewer class skills, since Blastbones and the Archer/Arcanist won't proc damage sets, and Ghost won't proc healing sets.

Necro needs some love. They're almost an excellent class but they've been shoehorned into Harmony bombing for so long that the areas they've lacked in have flown under the radar. Now with Harmony bombing gone, and many of their other issues being more significant in today's meta, they need a bit of help. Throw them a lifeline ZOS.

Hi all, we chatted with the dev team to follow up on some of the player commentary around Harmony. First to frame the conversation, we want to reiterate the dev team's thoughts around the change, which was highlighted in the patch notes.

"This trait is currently far too niche for its intended use and is meant to be an enhancer to the Undaunted skill line and group play, but ironically is being utilized more by solo builds in PvP to instantly obliterate large groups. We’re shifting this trait over to be more recovery focused, which has much more use potential between PvE and PvP, rather than trying to continue making a value that doesn’t add more insta-gibbing potential but still has impact enough in PvE.""

To add additional feedback from dev, Harmony was being used in ways outside the intended goals of rewarding group play. Additionally, dev has noted that Necromancers being used as a "bomb" class was outside of the intended scope of play and created a unhealthy play environment.

With that context, we are happy to relay additional questions and/or feedback to dev regarding the this change to Harmony.

@ZOS_Kevin This is COMPLETELY understood that in no way should any one player be able to bomb and obliterate that many players. Got it. What the team has seemed to be deaf to, however, is that this was the ONLY thing that Necromancer's could do well offensively in PVP. By removing it with zero thought or effort put into addressing the complete lack of offensive capability of the class is a massive slap in the face to people who play the class.

Ever since it was decided to massively nerf DoT skills (except for DK lol), Necromancer has struggled in PVP because it has no on-demand CC like EVERY other class and it has no real offensive burst outside of the Blastbones which is buggy and delayed with travel times that vary and are not reliable for setting up burst combos (like every other class). Necromancers are forced to use mostly weapon skills instead of class skills to have offensive viability.

When responding to the Harmony nerf frustration from Necromancer players, please acknowledge and realize the actual source. It's not the nerf, its the removal of the LAST offensive capability/use of the class in PVP after countless nerfs and zero effort to bring any of the class skills in line with the rest of the classes for PVP.

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

It is not an advantage, I spend a bar slot and 1 GCD every 4 seconds, and a second slot and a GCD every 20s to match what I get with NB with 1 GCD and no bar slots (because I slot those skill regardless).

NB also has bar space issues. You want Minor Force on a NB to take full advantage of crit damage, but you’d be giving up a slot for that. People usually run Gryphon’s Ferocity for Minor Force or slot RAT and remove something else.

Ahh, the beauty of the class is you don't need minor force. You have passive 10% crit damage, so you can skip it if you want, or you have the option to go all in on crit damage, stack above the cap to compenstate for rallying cry users.

Conversely, some of my other classes are borderline unplayable without slotting race against time.

You definitely need Minor Force on a crit damage build.

If Minor Force was on something like Beast Trap, then yes I don’t see why it needs to be slotted. But if it’s on an ability like RAT, then it is a must have. RAT providing a snare cleanse, snare immunity, Major Expedition, and Minor Force is too useful to pass up.

katorga

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

It is not an advantage, I spend a bar slot and 1 GCD every 4 seconds, and a second slot and a GCD every 20s to match what I get with NB with 1 GCD and no bar slots (because I slot those skill regardless).

NB also has bar space issues. You want Minor Force on a NB to take full advantage of crit damage, but you’d be giving up a slot for that. People usually run Gryphon’s Ferocity for Minor Force or slot RAT and remove something else.

Ahh, the beauty of the class is you don't need minor force. You have passive 10% crit damage, so you can skip it if you want, or you have the option to go all in on crit damage, stack above the cap to compenstate for rallying cry users.

Conversely, some of my other classes are borderline unplayable without slotting race against time.

You definitely need Minor Force on a crit damage build.

If Minor Force was on something like Beast Trap, then yes I don’t see why it needs to be slotted. But if it’s on an ability like RAT, then it is a must have. RAT providing a snare cleanse, snare immunity, Major Expedition, and Minor Force is too useful to pass up.

Talking from a pvp perspective. You need "enough" crit damage. That was exactly my point. WIth my NB can can skip race against time if I want....I have have native major/minor expedition, snare removal and 10% crit damage. OR If I choose to, I can use something that gives minor force and have 10% MORE crit damage than other classes can build. My choice.

My necro, for example, has to waste a slot on RAT. It is not a flex spot. Necro does not have exedition, snare removal, or 10% crit damage. And even using RAT I will always have 15% less movement speed, 10% less crit damage than a NB. Ditto for my DK, although next patch I may use the gap closer instead of RAT.

My stamsorc has to spend three skill slots, one for RAT, one for vigor, one for Hurricane, and spend 7-8 GCD over 20 seconds to equal the speed and healing my NB gets just slotting my spammable, and casting my hot ever 12 seconds or so, so say 2 GCD. No matter what, I will always have 10% less crit damage than a NB.

NB is the Oakensoul of classes.

Durham

Nigh blades are currently just broke the healing with this class + its ability to bust down anything! Just a crazy tool kit and yes they are stronger then DKs !

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

It is not an advantage, I spend a bar slot and 1 GCD every 4 seconds, and a second slot and a GCD every 20s to match what I get with NB with 1 GCD and no bar slots (because I slot those skill regardless).

NB also has bar space issues. You want Minor Force on a NB to take full advantage of crit damage, but you’d be giving up a slot for that. People usually run Gryphon’s Ferocity for Minor Force or slot RAT and remove something else.

Ahh, the beauty of the class is you don't need minor force. You have passive 10% crit damage, so you can skip it if you want, or you have the option to go all in on crit damage, stack above the cap to compenstate for rallying cry users.

Conversely, some of my other classes are borderline unplayable without slotting race against time.

You definitely need Minor Force on a crit damage build.

If Minor Force was on something like Beast Trap, then yes I don’t see why it needs to be slotted. But if it’s on an ability like RAT, then it is a must have. RAT providing a snare cleanse, snare immunity, Major Expedition, and Minor Force is too useful to pass up.

Talking from a pvp perspective. You need "enough" crit damage. That was exactly my point. WIth my NB can can skip race against time if I want....I have have native major/minor expedition, snare removal and 10% crit damage. OR If I choose to, I can use something that gives minor force and have 10% MORE crit damage than other classes can build. My choice.

My necro, for example, has to waste a slot on RAT. It is not a flex spot. Necro does not have exedition, snare removal, or 10% crit damage. And even using RAT I will always have 15% less movement speed, 10% less crit damage than a NB. Ditto for my DK, although next patch I may use the gap closer instead of RAT.

My stamsorc has to spend three skill slots, one for RAT, one for vigor, one for Hurricane, and spend 7-8 GCD over 20 seconds to equal the speed and healing my NB gets just slotting my spammable, and casting my hot ever 12 seconds or so, so say 2 GCD. No matter what, I will always have 10% less crit damage than a NB.

NB is the Oakensoul of classes.

Regarding the argument about choice, I agree with that. However, I still think Minor Force is needed on a NB because NB really only has 2 offensive abilities - Concealed and AW. It has to stack as much damage modifiers as possible.

The argument of choice is also what I used to argue that sorc has better burst than a NB because it can afford to slot 4 different offensive abilities whereas a NB can only slot 2, leading to sorc requiring less stats to be useful.

In your stamsorc example, this is what I usually run on my bars:

Front: Whirling Blades, Cwep, Curse, Bound Arms, Crit Surge
Back: Streak, Dark Deal, Vigor, Caltrops, Hurricane

I’m missing Major Evasion, Minor Force, Major Expedition, and Major Prophecy (using Savagery pots). I can fix that weakness by using Night Mother set for Major Breach, leaving me 1 extra slot to use RAT . Major Evasion and Prophecy would be the only buffs I’m missing afterwards. A NB would have to go this route if he wants to slot all the useful abilities as well.

There’s no doubt that NB has more buffs, but I’m 100% confident that the potential burst damage is more than a NB simply due to having 4 offensive abilities. This is what makes sorc and and NB different despite both being a pure burst class. If I were to buff sorc, I would just rework the passives to give more passive damage and keep everything as it is.

katorga

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

It is not an advantage, I spend a bar slot and 1 GCD every 4 seconds, and a second slot and a GCD every 20s to match what I get with NB with 1 GCD and no bar slots (because I slot those skill regardless).

NB also has bar space issues. You want Minor Force on a NB to take full advantage of crit damage, but you’d be giving up a slot for that. People usually run Gryphon’s Ferocity for Minor Force or slot RAT and remove something else.

Ahh, the beauty of the class is you don't need minor force. You have passive 10% crit damage, so you can skip it if you want, or you have the option to go all in on crit damage, stack above the cap to compenstate for rallying cry users.

Conversely, some of my other classes are borderline unplayable without slotting race against time.

You definitely need Minor Force on a crit damage build.

If Minor Force was on something like Beast Trap, then yes I don’t see why it needs to be slotted. But if it’s on an ability like RAT, then it is a must have. RAT providing a snare cleanse, snare immunity, Major Expedition, and Minor Force is too useful to pass up.

Talking from a pvp perspective. You need "enough" crit damage. That was exactly my point. WIth my NB can can skip race against time if I want....I have have native major/minor expedition, snare removal and 10% crit damage. OR If I choose to, I can use something that gives minor force and have 10% MORE crit damage than other classes can build. My choice.

My necro, for example, has to waste a slot on RAT. It is not a flex spot. Necro does not have exedition, snare removal, or 10% crit damage. And even using RAT I will always have 15% less movement speed, 10% less crit damage than a NB. Ditto for my DK, although next patch I may use the gap closer instead of RAT.

My stamsorc has to spend three skill slots, one for RAT, one for vigor, one for Hurricane, and spend 7-8 GCD over 20 seconds to equal the speed and healing my NB gets just slotting my spammable, and casting my hot ever 12 seconds or so, so say 2 GCD. No matter what, I will always have 10% less crit damage than a NB.

NB is the Oakensoul of classes.

Regarding the argument about choice, I agree with that. However, I still think Minor Force is needed on a NB because NB really only has 2 offensive abilities - Concealed and AW. It has to stack as much damage modifiers as possible.

I like 2-3 offensive abilities...more becomes too complicated in openworld or BG.

That said, I get kills easily on my NB with just force pulse and AW or masters twin slashes / AW - basically run of the mill meta builds. Everything else is healing or utility.

katorga

StaticWave wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

Sure, and I'm fine with that.
If the statement was "nb is as fast as sorc but with more freedom for skill slots and weapon choices" then I wouldn't have said anything.
What was said, however, was not completely honest and correct.

Now that you've found out that every class can reach the speed cap easily and when you're done hanging up on semantics we might can come back to the gist of the statement: that (stam) sorc is lacking behind NB in burst damage, healing and general skill design. Do you agree with that sentiment or do you see sorc ahead of NB in any of those departments?

As a stamsorc main, I don’t agree that stamsorc is lacking behind in burst damage. I currently run Spin2Win, Cwep, Curse, and Bound Arms as my burst and use Savagery pots for crit on my melee sorc.

Despite having inferior passives, the burst potential is definitely there and rivals a NB. Bound Arms + Curse + Cwep, when crit, deal more damage than a crit Bow Proc. A crit Bound Arms will usually hit for 8k, a crit Curse around 7k, and a crit Cwep around 6k. That’s over 20k worth of damage on a class with outdated passives. Not to mention all of that can be combo-ed with Spin2Win or a DawnBreaker to basically 1 shot most people who aren’t tanks in 1 GCD. I have plenty of videos pulling this off against players of all skill level on my youtube channel and in various discords.

Now you could argue that a NB only needs 1 ability to deal as much dmg as a Sorc’s 3 abilities, but that is an argument of class design. While both Sorc and NB are burst classes, they deliver their burst differently.

Nb delivers its burst it in 2-3 GCDs by first using Concealed Weapon/Incap to chunk away at the target, then hit a 15-18k bow to 1 shot that target. This design saves bar space and increases efficiency, but at the cost of practicality. Realistically it’s very easy to dodge a 20k bow proc and good players have no issue dodging it.

Sorc on the other hand, delivers its burst in two ways - stacking multiple abilities into 1 GCD, or spread them out over multiple GCDs like a NB. The first way is like the example I mentioned above where you can precast Cwep, cast Curse on someone, cast a full stack Bound Arms, then use an ultimate or another spammable to guarantee that all 4 abilities will land at the same time, giving your opponent no chance of recovering if he doesn’t try to block it. The second way is similar to a NB where you cast them over 2-3 GCDs, but better because the damage is spread out over 3 abilities, so if your opponent dodges Bound Arms, you will still have Curse and Cwep. That isn’t the case on NB though because if your Bow Proc misses, you’ve lost 80% of your burst.

So right there we can see that a sorc has 2 options of delivering its burst whereas a NB only has 1. This alone makes sorc better as a burst class because if you ever run into someone who likes to spam roll dodge, you don’t have to worry as much about your abilities missing since you can just switch to the 2nd way of delivering your burst, whereas a NB can’t.

The classes are close but NB is better at essentially the same playstyle. Pre-casting CW without a target is super nice and I really like curse (thank god for hyrbidization) compared to Blastbones or Shalks.

This design saves bar space and increases efficiency, but at the cost of practicality

I find a LOT of value in that efficiency. At the end of the day, on a NB I end up with 300-600 more spell damage, 10% more crit/crit damage, around 20% more damage buff, a heal I can block cast, and I spend a lot less time casting buffs - same sets, build basically. Hard to overlook that.

If I wasn't OCD about skillpoints, achievements, and whatnot....my sorc would be history.

StaticWave

katorga wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

That doesn't mean it is faster, lol. They have the same speed. But I understand what you are trying to get across in your tldr section.

I think what they mean in a nutshell is NB has access to both Expedition buffs with class abilities, while Sorc can only choose 1 or the other. Realistically though it's not a big deal because you'd slot RAT for Major Expedition, which is actually a benefit considering you'd also get Minor Force + a snare/root cleanse and immunity. Although one could also argue that you'd give up important buffs whereas a NB doesn't have to, but it's not a big deal on a healing build.

Sure, and I'm fine with that.
If the statement was "nb is as fast as sorc but with more freedom for skill slots and weapon choices" then I wouldn't have said anything.
What was said, however, was not completely honest and correct.

Now that you've found out that every class can reach the speed cap easily and when you're done hanging up on semantics we might can come back to the gist of the statement: that (stam) sorc is lacking behind NB in burst damage, healing and general skill design. Do you agree with that sentiment or do you see sorc ahead of NB in any of those departments?

As a stamsorc main, I don’t agree that stamsorc is lacking behind in burst damage. I currently run Spin2Win, Cwep, Curse, and Bound Arms as my burst and use Savagery pots for crit on my melee sorc.

Despite having inferior passives, the burst potential is definitely there and rivals a NB. Bound Arms + Curse + Cwep, when crit, deal more damage than a crit Bow Proc. A crit Bound Arms will usually hit for 8k, a crit Curse around 7k, and a crit Cwep around 6k. That’s over 20k worth of damage on a class with outdated passives. Not to mention all of that can be combo-ed with Spin2Win or a DawnBreaker to basically 1 shot most people who aren’t tanks in 1 GCD. I have plenty of videos pulling this off against players of all skill level on my youtube channel and in various discords.

Now you could argue that a NB only needs 1 ability to deal as much dmg as a Sorc’s 3 abilities, but that is an argument of class design. While both Sorc and NB are burst classes, they deliver their burst differently.

Nb delivers its burst it in 2-3 GCDs by first using Concealed Weapon/Incap to chunk away at the target, then hit a 15-18k bow to 1 shot that target. This design saves bar space and increases efficiency, but at the cost of practicality. Realistically it’s very easy to dodge a 20k bow proc and good players have no issue dodging it.

Sorc on the other hand, delivers its burst in two ways - stacking multiple abilities into 1 GCD, or spread them out over multiple GCDs like a NB. The first way is like the example I mentioned above where you can precast Cwep, cast Curse on someone, cast a full stack Bound Arms, then use an ultimate or another spammable to guarantee that all 4 abilities will land at the same time, giving your opponent no chance of recovering if he doesn’t try to block it. The second way is similar to a NB where you cast them over 2-3 GCDs, but better because the damage is spread out over 3 abilities, so if your opponent dodges Bound Arms, you will still have Curse and Cwep. That isn’t the case on NB though because if your Bow Proc misses, you’ve lost 80% of your burst.

So right there we can see that a sorc has 2 options of delivering its burst whereas a NB only has 1. This alone makes sorc better as a burst class because if you ever run into someone who likes to spam roll dodge, you don’t have to worry as much about your abilities missing since you can just switch to the 2nd way of delivering your burst, whereas a NB can’t.

The classes are close but NB is better at essentially the same playstyle. Pre-casting CW without a target is super nice and I really like curse (thank god for hyrbidization) compared to Blastbones or Shalks.

This design saves bar space and increases efficiency, but at the cost of practicality

I find a LOT of value in that efficiency. At the end of the day, on a NB I end up with 300-600 more spell damage, 10% more crit/crit damage, around 20% more damage buff, a heal I can block cast, and I spend a lot less time casting buffs - same sets, build basically. Hard to overlook that.

If I wasn't OCD about skillpoints, achievements, and whatnot....my sorc would be history.

That's fair if you like the efficiency. The class was given a bunch of superior passives to make sure that their only 2 offensive abilities hit as hard as possible. It's an advantage in many situations and also a disadvantage in many situations.

Sorc inherently has more total burst than a NB with 4 offensive abilities. However they lack the superior passives to truly be on par with a NB. A simple rework to the passives would help close the gap.

Chilly-McFreeze

Interessting conception. What passives would you change and how?

And wouldn‘t that still leave S with subpar healing capacities compared to NB?

Pelanora

O man, you need to start from the beginning of the thread.

StaticWave

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Interessting conception. What passives would you change and how?

And wouldn‘t that still leave S with subpar healing capacities compared to NB?

For the mean time, I would change these passives:

1) Dark Magic:
- Change Persistence from reducing the Stamina, Magicka, and Health cost of abilities by 15% after blocking to increasing crit chance by 300 per Dark Magic ability slotted. This would ensure that Crit Surge healing is maximized.

- Change Blood Magic heal's scaling from max HP to highest offensive stat. A 45k HP build has a healing tooltip of 5k Blood Magic, or 2.5k under Battle Spirit. If this ability scales of max offensive stat, then the heal will be sufficient enough that the need of an offensive burst heal can be alleviated.

2) Daedric Summoning:
- Change Rebate from restoring 300 stam or magicka when one of the non ultimate Daedric Summoning ability ends to giving a flat 200 stamina or magicka recovery when one of the non ultimate Daedric Summoning ability is active. This makes sure the recovery is always beneficial because in a real fight, nobody is going to use Bound Arms with 1 stack to get 300 stamina back, or purposely try to get their pet killed to get 300 magicka back lol.
- Replace Daedric Protection with the old Persistence passive.

3) Storm Calling:
- Change Energized from increasing Physical and Shock damage by 5% to increasing Physical and Magic damage by 5% since the majority of Sorc's damage is Magic or Physical.

ESO_Nightingale

StaticWave wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Interessting conception. What passives would you change and how?

And wouldn‘t that still leave S with subpar healing capacities compared to NB?

For the mean time, I would change these passives:

1) Dark Magic:
- Change Persistence from reducing the Stamina, Magicka, and Health cost of abilities by 15% after blocking to increasing crit chance by 300 per Dark Magic ability slotted. This would ensure that Crit Surge healing is maximized.

- Change Blood Magic heal's scaling from max HP to highest offensive stat. A 45k HP build has a healing tooltip of 5k Blood Magic, or 2.5k under Battle Spirit. If this ability scales of max offensive stat, then the heal will be sufficient enough that the need of an offensive burst heal can be alleviated.

2) Daedric Summoning:
- Change Rebate from restoring 300 stam or magicka when one of the non ultimate Daedric Summoning ability ends to giving a flat 200 stamina or magicka recovery when one of the non ultimate Daedric Summoning ability is active. This makes sure the recovery is always beneficial because in a real fight, nobody is going to use Bound Arms with 1 stack to get 300 stamina back, or purposely try to get their pet killed to get 300 magicka back lol.
- Replace Daedric Protection with the old Persistence passive.

3) Storm Calling:
- Change Energized from increasing Physical and Shock damage by 5% to increasing Physical and Magic damage by 5% since the majority of Sorc's damage is Magic or Physical.

I don't play sorc but i'll give my 2 cents on some ideas to help improve it in some areas people want it changed in.

shock damage is part of sorc's identity, i wouldn't remove it but instead, further expand upon it, perhaps with some of these ideas as a starting point?

This adds some functional damage to sorcerer's concussion status effect which i'll be elaborating on with a couple more changes


This change allows the user to gain more value from mage's fury especially when executing a target at low health while also ensuring that the target has minor vulnerability applied to them.


This change allows sorcerer to apply concussion significantly more especially in pve environments, while providing a nice damage boost to boundless storm especially in execute range.


Concussion Status Effect:
As we saw with the chilled status effect on warden, the only real way to incentivise using specific damage types on a class, is to target that element's status effect to make it do solid damage, this would be sorcerer's version of that when using certain storm calling skills

In addition, i think that rebate is absolutely atrocious as far as passives go, i would rework it to a passive that gives you a different effect based on if you're using a pet, or if you're not, aiming to empower the user if they're a petless sorc build and to provide accessability and options to the gain the empower buff in-class when playing a pet heavy attack sorc which is an extremely popular way of playing sorc.

Chilly-McFreeze

StaticWave wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Interessting conception. What passives would you change and how?

And wouldn‘t that still leave S with subpar healing capacities compared to NB?

For the mean time, I would change these passives:

1) Dark Magic:
- Change Persistence from reducing the Stamina, Magicka, and Health cost of abilities by 15% after blocking to increasing crit chance by 300 per Dark Magic ability slotted. This would ensure that Crit Surge healing is maximized.

- Change Blood Magic heal's scaling from max HP to highest offensive stat. A 45k HP build has a healing tooltip of 5k Blood Magic, or 2.5k under Battle Spirit. If this ability scales of max offensive stat, then the heal will be sufficient enough that the need of an offensive burst heal can be alleviated.

2) Daedric Summoning:
- Change Rebate from restoring 300 stam or magicka when one of the non ultimate Daedric Summoning ability ends to giving a flat 200 stamina or magicka recovery when one of the non ultimate Daedric Summoning ability is active. This makes sure the recovery is always beneficial because in a real fight, nobody is going to use Bound Arms with 1 stack to get 300 stamina back, or purposely try to get their pet killed to get 300 magicka back lol.
- Replace Daedric Protection with the old Persistence passive.

3) Storm Calling:
- Change Energized from increasing Physical and Shock damage by 5% to increasing Physical and Magic damage by 5% since the majority of Sorc's damage is Magic or Physical.

Thanks for the insight. I agree about Rebate and Blood Magic. But I'm really torn on your choice of Persistence.

300 crit chance per skill is kinda low. If I glance over to Pressure Points, that grants 438 per skill while up to 3 skills are usually going on the front bar from that line vs 300 for skills that beside Shards aren't the go to for your frontbar, seems a bit like a missed chance. I think restricting it to skills from the dark magic line is a tad too tight.

StaticWave

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Interessting conception. What passives would you change and how?

And wouldn‘t that still leave S with subpar healing capacities compared to NB?

For the mean time, I would change these passives:

1) Dark Magic:
- Change Persistence from reducing the Stamina, Magicka, and Health cost of abilities by 15% after blocking to increasing crit chance by 300 per Dark Magic ability slotted. This would ensure that Crit Surge healing is maximized.

- Change Blood Magic heal's scaling from max HP to highest offensive stat. A 45k HP build has a healing tooltip of 5k Blood Magic, or 2.5k under Battle Spirit. If this ability scales of max offensive stat, then the heal will be sufficient enough that the need of an offensive burst heal can be alleviated.

2) Daedric Summoning:
- Change Rebate from restoring 300 stam or magicka when one of the non ultimate Daedric Summoning ability ends to giving a flat 200 stamina or magicka recovery when one of the non ultimate Daedric Summoning ability is active. This makes sure the recovery is always beneficial because in a real fight, nobody is going to use Bound Arms with 1 stack to get 300 stamina back, or purposely try to get their pet killed to get 300 magicka back lol.
- Replace Daedric Protection with the old Persistence passive.

3) Storm Calling:
- Change Energized from increasing Physical and Shock damage by 5% to increasing Physical and Magic damage by 5% since the majority of Sorc's damage is Magic or Physical.

Thanks for the insight. I agree about Rebate and Blood Magic. But I'm really torn on your choice of Persistence.

300 crit chance per skill is kinda low. If I glance over to Pressure Points, that grants 438 per skill while up to 3 skills are usually going on the front bar from that line vs 300 for skills that beside Shards aren't the go to for your frontbar, seems a bit like a missed chance. I think restricting it to skills from the dark magic line is a tad too tight.

Could also move that passive down in the Summoning skill line tbh, or rework the Dark Magic ones to be more useful.

techprince

Frozen Gate doesn't taunt like other pull abilities. Is this intended?

ESO_Nightingale

techprince wrote: »

Frozen Gate doesn't taunt like other pull abilities. Is this intended?

following on this, Frozen Retreat isn't used at all compared to Device, is this intended?

Jabbs_Giggity

heaven13 wrote: »

I'm sure someone has already pointed it out but DKs and templars had similar reasoning for some changes in some vastly different approaches that feel incredibly unbalanced.

• Dragonknight: Chains of Devastation: This morph now grants Major Berserk for 10 seconds after casting, rather than Empower, as Molten Armaments already grants it in a much more effect way.
• Templar: Everlasting Sweep: Increased the duration of the pulsing Damage over Time to 10 seconds at base, up from 6 seconds.This morph no longer grants Empower, as Solar Flare and its morphs already grant this buff.

So DKs get an added named buff (and a major one) and templars get...4 more seconds of pulsing damage? Seems balanced.

Not to mention, DK gets major buff on an active skull, while Templar remains "chained" to an Ult with no added use. Fair...*sigh*

acastanza_ESO

So ZOS, what Magicka skill is getting Major Berserk added to it so Magicka specs can compete with Stamina specs that can now get 100% uptime on Breserk with no effort? Or are we only allowed to play Stamina this patch @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Gilliam?

TechMaybeHic

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

So ZOS, what Magicka skill is getting Major Berserk added to it so Magicka specs can compete with Stamina specs that can now get 100% uptime on Breserk with no effort? Or are we only allowed to play Stamina this patch @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Gilliam?

...chains...

Rkindaleft

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

So ZOS, what Magicka skill is getting Major Berserk added to it so Magicka specs can compete with Stamina specs that can now get 100% uptime on Breserk with no effort? Or are we only allowed to play Stamina this patch @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Gilliam?

...chains...

Absolutely, thank the divines that DK got that in their kit now, they were really underperforming in all the content in the game. Ignore the logs from every trial HM except like Asylum where there's like 700 of them compared to like 10 of the other classes.

StaticWave

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

So ZOS, what Magicka skill is getting Major Berserk added to it so Magicka specs can compete with Stamina specs that can now get 100% uptime on Breserk with no effort? Or are we only allowed to play Stamina this patch @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_Gilliam?

Wrecking Blow is pretty bad tho...