PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

The_Titan_Tim

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Then why you're assuming DD could ever substitute HtD?

I don’t run Honor of the Dead, it’s absolute garbage. Burst heals are only great for getting you out of a bind and away from execute, when you’re on a Templar, you have every HoT under the sun so the chances of landing in execute are slim, then there’s the Stage 3 buffer of Undeath that is overperforming.

StaticWave

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Also, I keep hearing how horrible the burst heal of the class is, yet Dark Deal is one of the most busted abilities in the game. The counterplay is it’s interruptible yet in actual gameplay, it’s next to impossible to interrupt it, allowing ALL iterations of Sorcerer to nearly endlessly cast all of their abilities without a single heavy attack.

I’ll trade you my garbage Honor the Dead for your Dark Deal any day of the week.

[snip]

This is Dark Deal:
- 1.1s channel and can't be block casted, leading to all of that healing being removed right afterwards.
- Doesn't scale with offensive stats

Also try playing a 800 regen stamsorc with just Dark Deal as your sustain. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

StaticWave

Also, ever since I moved out of the U.S, the constant 300+ ping makes it impossible to play stamsorc at the high level anymore. That class requires too much efficient movement and blocking/rolling for defense to be played effectively with 300+ ping.

In contrast, you could play a DK/NB/Plar defensively very well even if your ping is high. I would love for my class to be at that level defensively, but I doubt that day will come.

Pelanora

StaticWave wrote: »

Also, ever since I moved out of the U.S, the constant 300+ ping makes it impossible to play stamsorc at the high level anymore. That class requires too much efficient movement and blocking/rolling for defense to be played effectively with 300+ ping.

In contrast, you could play a DK/NB/Plar defensively very well even if your ping is high. I would love for my class to be at that level defensively, but I doubt that day will come.

Lifting your weapon and it doesn't fire because the guy is actually dead its just the game hasn't caught you up yet. Yep so awesome, that 500 ping.

Aces-High-82

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Then why you're assuming DD could ever substitute HtD?

I don’t run Honor of the Dead, it’s absolute garbage. Burst heals are only great for getting you out of a bind and away from execute, when you’re on a Templar, you have every HoT under the sun so the chances of landing in execute are slim, then there’s the Stage 3 buffer of Undeath that is overperforming.

Your argumentation makes zero sense. You're talking about sorcs lacking burst heal and bring up DD only to tell that one doesn't need a burst heal. Truth is I would trade matriarch for HtD any day.

You don’t need a burst heal when every ability in your kit has an auxiliary heal-over-time. Sorcerer doesn’t have that; they have one heal-over-time and it’s conditional to damage.

Ergo sorc is lacking a reliable burst heal, doesn't he?

The_Titan_Tim

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

Then why you're assuming DD could ever substitute HtD?

I don’t run Honor of the Dead, it’s absolute garbage. Burst heals are only great for getting you out of a bind and away from execute, when you’re on a Templar, you have every HoT under the sun so the chances of landing in execute are slim, then there’s the Stage 3 buffer of Undeath that is overperforming.

Your argumentation makes zero sense. You're talking about sorcs lacking burst heal and bring up DD only to tell that one doesn't need a burst heal. Truth is I would trade matriarch for HtD any day.

You don’t need a burst heal when every ability in your kit has an auxiliary heal-over-time. Sorcerer doesn’t have that; they have one heal-over-time and it’s conditional to damage.

Ergo sorc is lacking a reliable burst heal, doesn't he?

The original discussion quite a few pages back, was that Sorcerer has a drawback of defense.

While the general consensus is that Sorcerer needs a buff in regards to healing, that puts a spotlight on an area in “need…” knowing this, and referencing it to our response from ZOS about Sorcerer balancing, it’s intentional.

It would be much more constructive to look at areas that are not considered “need” areas, and to propose ways to adjust them and make them better.

If the class is supposed to sustain indefinitely, how can we make it do just that?

If the class is supposed to be a stream of heavy damage, what possible changes can be made to adjust it so that it falls more in line?

If the class isn’t supposed to be great defensively, why are we pushing for better heals?

StaticWave

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to sustain indefinitely, how can we make it do just that?

By not having passives like Rebate and Expert Summoner that only gives you regen on one bar and only returns stamina if a Summoning ability ends (Who would use Bound Arms early just to get 300 stam back lol?), or Persistence that requires you to purposely cut off your stamina just so you your next ability costs cheaper?

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to be a stream of heavy damage, what possible changes can be made to adjust it so that it falls more in line?

By making sure that most of its damage is avoidable, but not too much that it has trouble delivering damage, which is why most of Sorc's offensive toolkit consists of single target direct damage and Curse is the only ability that is unblockable/undodgable.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class isn’t supposed to be great defensively, why are we pushing for better heals?

We are pushing for better heals because the benefit of extreme mobility has diminished greatly over the years. Everyone can reach 200% speed cap with little investment. Everyone can slot a gap closer to ignore Streak.

We are also pushing for better heals because it is the only class that still does not have a decent and reliable class burst heal. A class that lacks a decent and reliable class burst heal is at a massive disadvantage compared to other classes. I am willing to trade some mobility if it means I get a burst heal with equal potency like Healthy Offering or Resistant Flesh.

The_Titan_Tim

StaticWave wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to sustain indefinitely, how can we make it do just that?

By not having passives like Rebate and Expert Summoner that only gives you regen on one bar and only returns stamina if a Summoning ability ends (Who would use Bound Arms early just to get 300 stam back lol?), or Persistence that requires you to purposely cut off your stamina just so you your next ability costs cheaper?

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to be a stream of heavy damage, what possible changes can be made to adjust it so that it falls more in line?

By making sure that most of its damage is avoidable, but not too much that it has trouble delivering damage, which is why most of Sorc's offensive toolkit consists of single target direct damage and Curse is the only ability that is unblockable/undodgable.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class isn’t supposed to be great defensively, why are we pushing for better heals?

We are pushing for better heals because the benefit of extreme mobility has diminished greatly over the years. Everyone can reach 200% speed cap with little investment. Everyone can slot a gap closer to ignore Streak.

We are also pushing for better heals because it is the only class that still does not have a decent and reliable class burst heal. A class that lacks a decent and reliable class burst heal is at a massive disadvantage compared to other classes. I am willing to trade some mobility if it means I get a burst heal with equal potency like Healthy Offering or Resistant Flesh.

This was constructive, I agree with you on the point that too much of Sorcerer’s damage is avoidable.

Anyone with more than three Well-Fitted can completely deny Sorcerers entire damage kit outside of Curse, Streak, and the Atronach.

Also, having to use Dark Deal as a means to return resources takes your foot off the pedal, Sorcerer should not have to do this anywhere nearly as much as they do currently, you’re onto something with the idea of passive reworks.

Regarding healing, and blockcasting specifically, I do understand your point, you want to be able to take advantage of something every other class is, I personally don’t think that we will see any significant changes to healing on Sorcerer, and feel as though this is a dead end.

StaticWave

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to sustain indefinitely, how can we make it do just that?

By not having passives like Rebate and Expert Summoner that only gives you regen on one bar and only returns stamina if a Summoning ability ends (Who would use Bound Arms early just to get 300 stam back lol?), or Persistence that requires you to purposely cut off your stamina just so you your next ability costs cheaper?

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to be a stream of heavy damage, what possible changes can be made to adjust it so that it falls more in line?

By making sure that most of its damage is avoidable, but not too much that it has trouble delivering damage, which is why most of Sorc's offensive toolkit consists of single target direct damage and Curse is the only ability that is unblockable/undodgable.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class isn’t supposed to be great defensively, why are we pushing for better heals?

We are pushing for better heals because the benefit of extreme mobility has diminished greatly over the years. Everyone can reach 200% speed cap with little investment. Everyone can slot a gap closer to ignore Streak.

We are also pushing for better heals because it is the only class that still does not have a decent and reliable class burst heal. A class that lacks a decent and reliable class burst heal is at a massive disadvantage compared to other classes. I am willing to trade some mobility if it means I get a burst heal with equal potency like Healthy Offering or Resistant Flesh.

This was constructive, I agree with you on the point that too much of Sorcerer’s damage is avoidable.

Anyone with more than three Well-Fitted can completely deny Sorcerers entire damage kit outside of Curse, Streak, and the Atronach.

Also, having to use Dark Deal as a means to return resources takes your foot off the pedal, Sorcerer should not have to do this anywhere nearly as much as they do currently, you’re onto something with the idea of passive reworks.

Regarding healing, and blockcasting specifically, I do understand your point, you want to be able to take advantage of something every other class is, I personally don’t think that we will see any significant changes to healing on Sorcerer, and feel as though this is a dead end.

I actually think the majority of Sorc's damage being avoidable is a GOOD thing. The class has 2 sources of delayed burst, Curse and Bound Arms (or 3 if you count Crystal Weapon in some builds), and a decent, high damage follow-up burst (Crystal Fragment). If half of these are unavoidable, the class's offense would be too strong.

Dark Deal sustain looks good on paper but in a real fight it's not as good as it looks. To use it a Sorc has to waste a whole GCD which could have been used for an extra spammable cast. I would much prefer passive sustain that allows me to constantly be on the offense. This is why many efficient stamsorcs use Smoke Bear Haunch or stack high stamina regen so that they don't need to rely on Dark Deal as much and only use it when necessary or as a pseudo burst heal.

I am also fine with them making Hardened Ward usable for stamsorc. It wasn't the solution I expected, but it's a usable solution. Ideally I would prefer Hardened Ward to scale with max stam so that I can build into the max stam path and be able to have high damage and a decent shield size. At the moment I'd have to sacrifice some damage if I want to use the shield, and that's not good in this current meta.

The_Titan_Tim

StaticWave wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to sustain indefinitely, how can we make it do just that?

By not having passives like Rebate and Expert Summoner that only gives you regen on one bar and only returns stamina if a Summoning ability ends (Who would use Bound Arms early just to get 300 stam back lol?), or Persistence that requires you to purposely cut off your stamina just so you your next ability costs cheaper?

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to be a stream of heavy damage, what possible changes can be made to adjust it so that it falls more in line?

By making sure that most of its damage is avoidable, but not too much that it has trouble delivering damage, which is why most of Sorc's offensive toolkit consists of single target direct damage and Curse is the only ability that is unblockable/undodgable.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class isn’t supposed to be great defensively, why are we pushing for better heals?

We are pushing for better heals because the benefit of extreme mobility has diminished greatly over the years. Everyone can reach 200% speed cap with little investment. Everyone can slot a gap closer to ignore Streak.

We are also pushing for better heals because it is the only class that still does not have a decent and reliable class burst heal. A class that lacks a decent and reliable class burst heal is at a massive disadvantage compared to other classes. I am willing to trade some mobility if it means I get a burst heal with equal potency like Healthy Offering or Resistant Flesh.

This was constructive, I agree with you on the point that too much of Sorcerer’s damage is avoidable.

Anyone with more than three Well-Fitted can completely deny Sorcerers entire damage kit outside of Curse, Streak, and the Atronach.

Also, having to use Dark Deal as a means to return resources takes your foot off the pedal, Sorcerer should not have to do this anywhere nearly as much as they do currently, you’re onto something with the idea of passive reworks.

Regarding healing, and blockcasting specifically, I do understand your point, you want to be able to take advantage of something every other class is, I personally don’t think that we will see any significant changes to healing on Sorcerer, and feel as though this is a dead end.

I actually think the majority of Sorc's damage being avoidable is a GOOD thing. The class has 2 sources of delayed burst, Curse and Bound Arms (or 3 if you count Crystal Weapon in some builds), and a decent, high damage follow-up burst (Crystal Fragment). If half of these are unavoidable, the class's offense would be too strong.

Dark Deal sustain looks good on paper but in a real fight it's not as good as it looks. To use it a Sorc has to waste a whole GCD which could have been used for an extra spammable cast. I would much prefer passive sustain that allows me to constantly be on the offense. This is why many efficient stamsorcs use Smoke Bear Haunch or stack high stamina regen so that they don't need to rely on Dark Deal as much and only use it when necessary or as a pseudo burst heal.

I am also fine with them making Hardened Ward usable for stamsorc. It wasn't the solution I expected, but it's a usable solution. Ideally I would prefer Hardened Ward to scale with max stam so that I can build into the max stam path and be able to have high damage and a decent shield size. At the moment I'd have to sacrifice some damage if I want to use the shield, and that's not good in this current meta.

When I envision a Sorcerer, I think, lightning.

How does lightning act in traditional fantasy RPGs when used offensively? It does high damage, in tight windows, something we have covered currently, but it also chains to multiple targets. One problem I see with Sorcerer, is it’s lack of burst AoE outside of Curse.

There’s a really disgusting set you get from Shipwright’s Regret called Storm-Cursed’s Revenge, on paper the set looks horrible, but the tooltip gets upwards to over 2,000, and has no cooldown, and it’s proc condition, is cycled through the set…

Shock damage procs more shock damage, so, landing yourself in any outnumbered fight, you can find this set doing some pretty obnoxious stuff.



I would like to see more of this type of approach to Shock damage, and Sorcerer as a whole.

I also miss Implosion.

gariondavey

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

VixxVexx wrote: »

Heard there was heresy being posted, and got here as fast as I could.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

... Backlash is just less efficient now ...

Saying this is considered heresy. Blacklash is worthless, not even worth slotting, complete garbo.
Just slot some extra pressure like deadly cloak or solar barrage.

On a D-Swing build you need that damage spike, even if it’s a little low. I understand where you would come to that conclusion on a build with Jabs or Sweeps, but when you build a full-send burst build; you need any timed explosions you can get, not to mention the Minor Fracture, Minor Sorcery and ult-gen is phenomenal.

I mean you would be running living dark and giving your minor sorcery and ult gen from that anyway.
Minor fracture you get even without potl.
Potl is below garbage. It is NOT worth slotting.

ZOS_Lunar

Hello!

We ask that when posting feedback, those posts are constructive, on topic, and free from insults. If someone has a different opinion from you and it turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.

If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

As such, we have removed posts from this thread as they violated our Community Rules around Flaming and Baiting.

Thanks for your understanding, and please review our rules if you have further questions.

proteinexe

So I've left commenting this since I saw the posts that @ZOS_Kevin made about what the feedback did to sway the development team. Honestly it was just a tad heart-breaking, for the fundamental fact that realistically myself and the community will have to wait another 3 - 4 months for anything to potentially change about Templar and Sorcerer. But here's where I'm just a bit lost..

ESO has 6 classes, and your whole gameplay whether it be PvE, PvP, openworld, questing or roleplaying revolves around which class you play. For an class based MMO 6 classes is actually very small. Guild wars 2 has 9, Black Desert Online has 24, WoW has 12.. ESO has 6. There are 6 classes to balance and maintain, and yet year after year after year ZoS relentlessly make sweeping changes which make classes literally useless in mid-end game content. I hate comparing MMO's as the one's mentioned above also have their downfalls, but god damn at least all their classes are fairly well balanced and playable. Yes, there will always be a hierarchy to classes, that's just the way MMO's operate, but no where near the way ESO's classes are ranked. And it's not sometimes, this is every year that there will be 2 useless classes.

It get's to me that ESO is a class based game with in the grand scheme of things, very little class choice, and yet currently 1/3rd of the classes just arnt playable to a high level, and the fact that it then takes the dev team, what, half a year? sometimes a year? to alter or make the class viable again is frankly silly. I'd like to say grounded with this comment, but it just boggles my mind that changes arnt made sooner when you have a whole community spoon feeding you the changes that need to be made. The Dev team asked for feedback and advice, the community unanimously all agree'd that for Templar, jabs need's a buff, potl needs a rework or fixing and burning light is too weak. That's the general consensus. Nothing is done about it for the foreseeable future..

I just dont see what goes through the dev teams mind honestly.. I'd like to see if people agree or disagree with this though.

UNSeki

Dark Deal is a bad class burst heal because it's a low flat value with a channel time, that is also nerfed on PVP. Sorcerers don't have reliable healing that scales off their preferred stats.

Sorcerers don't have self HoTs past Resolving Vigor (which costs stamina) and Regeneration from the resto staff (which can target someone else). This is fine in theory, as it makes it so sorcs need to invest into burst healing.

However, the class burst heal is not instant nor strong, as stated above. If you want to have better burst heal, you need to bring pets, which can also target other people lower on health (Matriarch) and interact poorly with HA builds and certain sets. Plus, pets only scale with magicka or health and can be killed. Beyond that, their heal is not really instant, such as Dragon Blood, but has a slight cast time that is affected by ping/connection (the fact Matriarch selects different targets each cast probably also factors into ping).

Looking at the numbers only, Matriarch can indeed do great group healing and even critical, but it's unreliable as self healing due to the targeting and HEAVY magicka dependencies (scaling and cost). IIrc, Clannfear healing cannot critical as it scales off max health.

For one, I feel like Winged Twilight should be a stamina healing morph, and maybe the extra damage part should moved to Volative Familiar's single target melee hits instead.

proteinexe

casparian wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

There are realy no viable builds WITH wards either. Wards are on GCD. Block is not on GCD. Block casting a burst heal is way more reactive and effective than a ward.

Great point, this is the core of the issue. ZOS' focus on quantitative parity -- making shield size comparable to amount of healing done -- obscures the fact that healing synergizes very well with other game mechanics but shields do not. Healing can tick (multiple times!) during other actions that take up a GCD, like block and dodge. Shields don't benefit from that mechanic in the same way.

That said, magsorc used to be very good despite lacking access to a burst heal. Old magsorc's defensive power came from synergy with HOTs -- shieldstacking and Streak both synergize extremely well with HOTs since they give HOTs time to act. That was a unique mechanic that really only magsorcs (and, briefly, magblade) could take advantage of. In recent years ZOS has decided they don't like that -- unique mechanics are too hard to standardize -- and backed away from letting sorc have its own defensive identity. That's fine I guess, but if they're going to take the standardization route and make the class rely on burst heals like every other class, they have to actually standardize and give the class heals that function like other classes' heals.

shinry

proteinexe wrote: »

So I've left commenting this since I saw the posts that @ZOS_Kevin made about what the feedback did to sway the development team. Honestly it was just a tad heart-breaking, for the fundamental fact that realistically myself and the community will have to wait another 3 - 4 months for anything to potentially change about Templar and Sorcerer. But here's where I'm just a bit lost..

ESO has 6 classes, and your whole gameplay whether it be PvE, PvP, openworld, questing or roleplaying revolves around which class you play. For an class based MMO 6 classes is actually very small. Guild wars 2 has 9, Black Desert Online has 24, WoW has 12.. ESO has 6. There are 6 classes to balance and maintain, and yet year after year after year ZoS relentlessly make sweeping changes which make classes literally useless in mid-end game content. I hate comparing MMO's as the one's mentioned above also have their downfalls, but god damn at least all their classes are fairly well balanced and playable. Yes, there will always be a hierarchy to classes, that's just the way MMO's operate, but no where near the way ESO's classes are ranked. And it's not sometimes, this is every year that there will be 2 useless classes.

It get's to me that ESO is a class based game with in the grand scheme of things, very little class choice, and yet currently 1/3rd of the classes just arnt playable to a high level, and the fact that it then takes the dev team, what, half a year? sometimes a year? to alter or make the class viable again is frankly silly. I'd like to say grounded with this comment, but it just boggles my mind that changes arnt made sooner when you have a whole community spoon feeding you the changes that need to be made. The Dev team asked for feedback and advice, the community unanimously all agree'd that for Templar, jabs need's a buff, potl needs a rework or fixing and burning light is too weak. That's the general consensus. Nothing is done about it for the foreseeable future..

I just dont see what goes through the dev teams mind honestly.. I'd like to see if people agree or disagree with this though.

This couldn't be more well put. Feedback was asked for. Feedback was given. A lot of people took time to give thoughtful responses that were in mind with one another, just for it to result in it in them now saying that JK we actually aren't looking to do any adjustments in the foreseeable future.

We only have six classes. Yet they feel so imbalanced and at a loss of identity more and more. To add to it, they release a new showcase for the arcanist and literally say "We are showing a brand new ability unique to the arcanist" and show a beam/laser as if that isn't the main Templar identity now. Then preach its "versatility" and uniqueness which they just claim they don't want the Sorcerer to have.

This is the worst timeline. Someone help me.

Pelanora

When you want change that an organisation is refusing to see is needed, you have to raise the heat on the organisation. That best comes from the outside- content streamers, steam reviews, journo articles.....given what we've seen in here, it won't come from the forums. Too invisible.

Thecompton73

StaticWave wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to sustain indefinitely, how can we make it do just that?

By not having passives like Rebate and Expert Summoner that only gives you regen on one bar and only returns stamina if a Summoning ability ends (Who would use Bound Arms early just to get 300 stam back lol?), or Persistence that requires you to purposely cut off your stamina just so you your next ability costs cheaper?

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to be a stream of heavy damage, what possible changes can be made to adjust it so that it falls more in line?

By making sure that most of its damage is avoidable, but not too much that it has trouble delivering damage, which is why most of Sorc's offensive toolkit consists of single target direct damage and Curse is the only ability that is unblockable/undodgable.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class isn’t supposed to be great defensively, why are we pushing for better heals?

We are pushing for better heals because the benefit of extreme mobility has diminished greatly over the years. Everyone can reach 200% speed cap with little investment. Everyone can slot a gap closer to ignore Streak.

We are also pushing for better heals because it is the only class that still does not have a decent and reliable class burst heal. A class that lacks a decent and reliable class burst heal is at a massive disadvantage compared to other classes. I am willing to trade some mobility if it means I get a burst heal with equal potency like Healthy Offering or Resistant Flesh.

This was constructive, I agree with you on the point that too much of Sorcerer’s damage is avoidable.

Anyone with more than three Well-Fitted can completely deny Sorcerers entire damage kit outside of Curse, Streak, and the Atronach.

Also, having to use Dark Deal as a means to return resources takes your foot off the pedal, Sorcerer should not have to do this anywhere nearly as much as they do currently, you’re onto something with the idea of passive reworks.

Regarding healing, and blockcasting specifically, I do understand your point, you want to be able to take advantage of something every other class is, I personally don’t think that we will see any significant changes to healing on Sorcerer, and feel as though this is a dead end.

I actually think the majority of Sorc's damage being avoidable is a GOOD thing. The class has 2 sources of delayed burst, Curse and Bound Arms (or 3 if you count Crystal Weapon in some builds), and a decent, high damage follow-up burst (Crystal Fragment). If half of these are unavoidable, the class's offense would be too strong.

Dark Deal sustain looks good on paper but in a real fight it's not as good as it looks. To use it a Sorc has to waste a whole GCD which could have been used for an extra spammable cast. I would much prefer passive sustain that allows me to constantly be on the offense. This is why many efficient stamsorcs use Smoke Bear Haunch or stack high stamina regen so that they don't need to rely on Dark Deal as much and only use it when necessary or as a pseudo burst heal.

I am also fine with them making Hardened Ward usable for stamsorc. It wasn't the solution I expected, but it's a usable solution. Ideally I would prefer Hardened Ward to scale with max stam so that I can build into the max stam path and be able to have high damage and a decent shield size. At the moment I'd have to sacrifice some damage if I want to use the shield, and that's not good in this current meta.

Take a look at your damage tooltips with 25K stam v 20K and I think you'll be surprised at how very little damage you lose.

Curious, has anyone been on PTS to see what Hardened Ward's tooltip scales to with 40K health?

gariondavey

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to sustain indefinitely, how can we make it do just that?

By not having passives like Rebate and Expert Summoner that only gives you regen on one bar and only returns stamina if a Summoning ability ends (Who would use Bound Arms early just to get 300 stam back lol?), or Persistence that requires you to purposely cut off your stamina just so you your next ability costs cheaper?

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class is supposed to be a stream of heavy damage, what possible changes can be made to adjust it so that it falls more in line?

By making sure that most of its damage is avoidable, but not too much that it has trouble delivering damage, which is why most of Sorc's offensive toolkit consists of single target direct damage and Curse is the only ability that is unblockable/undodgable.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If the class isn’t supposed to be great defensively, why are we pushing for better heals?

We are pushing for better heals because the benefit of extreme mobility has diminished greatly over the years. Everyone can reach 200% speed cap with little investment. Everyone can slot a gap closer to ignore Streak.

We are also pushing for better heals because it is the only class that still does not have a decent and reliable class burst heal. A class that lacks a decent and reliable class burst heal is at a massive disadvantage compared to other classes. I am willing to trade some mobility if it means I get a burst heal with equal potency like Healthy Offering or Resistant Flesh.

This was constructive, I agree with you on the point that too much of Sorcerer’s damage is avoidable.

Anyone with more than three Well-Fitted can completely deny Sorcerers entire damage kit outside of Curse, Streak, and the Atronach.

Also, having to use Dark Deal as a means to return resources takes your foot off the pedal, Sorcerer should not have to do this anywhere nearly as much as they do currently, you’re onto something with the idea of passive reworks.

Regarding healing, and blockcasting specifically, I do understand your point, you want to be able to take advantage of something every other class is, I personally don’t think that we will see any significant changes to healing on Sorcerer, and feel as though this is a dead end.

I actually think the majority of Sorc's damage being avoidable is a GOOD thing. The class has 2 sources of delayed burst, Curse and Bound Arms (or 3 if you count Crystal Weapon in some builds), and a decent, high damage follow-up burst (Crystal Fragment). If half of these are unavoidable, the class's offense would be too strong.

Dark Deal sustain looks good on paper but in a real fight it's not as good as it looks. To use it a Sorc has to waste a whole GCD which could have been used for an extra spammable cast. I would much prefer passive sustain that allows me to constantly be on the offense. This is why many efficient stamsorcs use Smoke Bear Haunch or stack high stamina regen so that they don't need to rely on Dark Deal as much and only use it when necessary or as a pseudo burst heal.

I am also fine with them making Hardened Ward usable for stamsorc. It wasn't the solution I expected, but it's a usable solution. Ideally I would prefer Hardened Ward to scale with max stam so that I can build into the max stam path and be able to have high damage and a decent shield size. At the moment I'd have to sacrifice some damage if I want to use the shield, and that's not good in this current meta.

Take a look at your damage tooltips with 25K stam v 20K and I think you'll be surprised at how very little damage you lose.

Curious, has anyone been on PTS to see what Hardened Ward's tooltip scales to with 40K health?

About 10k

SkaraMinoc

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Curious, has anyone been on PTS to see what Hardened Ward's tooltip scales to with 40K health?

https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?abilityid=30474

0.2215785 Health with Battle Spirit (0.443157 without)

40000 * 0.2215785 = 8863.14

10000 shield / 0.2215785 = 45131 health required

Thecompton73

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Curious, has anyone been on PTS to see what Hardened Ward's tooltip scales to with 40K health?

https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?abilityid=30474

0.2215785 Health with Battle Spirit (0.443157 without)

40000 * 0.2215785 = 8863.14

10000 shield / 0.2215785 = 45131 health required

Ouch, that scaling needs to be more aggressive. If it was something like 12.5 or better 14K at 40K health and you could still build for decent recovery and 6K wd/sd I'd say it's gonna be interesting to try. Sub 9K? Sounds like a good way to quickly drain your magic pool by being forced to spam it under even the least bit of pressure.

Edit: Curious, did you notice that chart listed the other scaling coefficient as SD not Max Mag? probably just a typo?

Sergykid

u can complete any content and any achievement with any classes. Does dk make it easier? yes. Is it mandatory to complete that content? no.
as for pvp, you just need to workaround it more, but it's true a nb will have an easier time than a necro f.e.

Melzo

ZOS_Lunar wrote: »

Hello!

We ask that when posting feedback, those posts are constructive, on topic, and free from insults. If someone has a different opinion from you and it turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.

If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

As such, we have removed posts from this thread as they violated our Community Rules around Flaming and Baiting.

Thanks for your understanding, and please review our rules if you have further questions.

Will there be at least some kind of answer to the necromancer? Many players have asked questions about the necromancer. And not one of them had any answer. If you want to somehow remake the necromancer, then do it right away or return the synergy and harmony back. I don't want to wait another 3 months for an update. I have waited 6 months and don't want to wait at least 3 more.

Melzo

I wrote about the problems of the necromancer and after three months he gets nerfed. I'm writing about the problems of the necromancer again and in this patch he is being nerfed again. The worst class got nerfed twice. I'm just waiting for the developers to answer me to crush all my hopes. For example the following phrase. Melzo, we do not have the time and energy to do something with the necromancer and you can delete the game. I have been sitting on the forum for literally 6 months and writing about problems and waiting for a similar phrase. Because I don't want to wait another 3 or 6 months or 2 years or more. Just crush my hopes and we'll say goodbye. Because it's funny when every update gets worse and worse, but it should be the other way around.

SkaraMinoc

Thecompton73 wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Curious, has anyone been on PTS to see what Hardened Ward's tooltip scales to with 40K health?

https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?abilityid=30474

0.2215785 Health with Battle Spirit (0.443157 without)

40000 * 0.2215785 = 8863.14

10000 shield / 0.2215785 = 45131 health required

Ouch, that scaling needs to be more aggressive. If it was something like 12.5 or better 14K at 40K health and you could still build for decent recovery and 6K wd/sd I'd say it's gonna be interesting to try. Sub 9K? Sounds like a good way to quickly drain your magic pool by being forced to spam it under even the least bit of pressure.

Edit: Curious, did you notice that chart listed the other scaling coefficient as SD not Max Mag? probably just a typo?

Ratio is 1.00 for the SD coefficient which means it's using max magicka/stamina. Normally it's 10.5 for the ratio.

You never want to use Hardened Ward on a Sorc that uses Dark Deal.

You never want to prioritize Max Health on a Sorc over magicka/stamina because you lose out on damage.

The only use case in PvP for Max Health shield is on a BG Sorc Healer using Druid's Braid. Most of their healing comes from +healing % so it doesn't matter if they have 50k max health.

This would help keep the Bird alive with a big 11k shield. If it dies you still have an 11k shield + 50k health to re-summon and time to recover from the interrupt.

huskandhunger

✌️

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Curious, has anyone been on PTS to see what Hardened Ward's tooltip scales to with 40K health?

https://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?abilityid=30474

0.2215785 Health with Battle Spirit (0.443157 without)

40000 * 0.2215785 = 8863.14

10000 shield / 0.2215785 = 45131 health required

Ouch, that scaling needs to be more aggressive. If it was something like 12.5 or better 14K at 40K health and you could still build for decent recovery and 6K wd/sd I'd say it's gonna be interesting to try. Sub 9K? Sounds like a good way to quickly drain your magic pool by being forced to spam it under even the least bit of pressure.

Edit: Curious, did you notice that chart listed the other scaling coefficient as SD not Max Mag? probably just a typo?

Ratio is 1.00 for the SD coefficient which means it's using max magicka/stamina. Normally it's 10.5 for the ratio.

You never want to use Hardened Ward on a Sorc that uses Dark Deal.

You never want to prioritize Max Health on a Sorc over magicka/stamina because you lose out on damage.

The only use case in PvP for Max Health shield is on a BG Sorc Healer using Druid's Braid. Most of their healing comes from +healing % so it doesn't matter if they have 50k max health.

This would help keep the Bird alive with a big 11k shield. If it dies you still have an 11k shield + 50k health to re-summon and time to recover from the interrupt.

aren't you a healer in battlegrounds anyway? just use your restoration staff and you're all set

LonePirate

Maybe I missed some things in the various patch notes over the weeks, but have any of the following issues been addressed in this latest update? If not, what can be done to have some sort of response from the dev team on them? These are Cyrodiil PVP related.

• The widespread stuck in combat bug, primarily in Cyrodiil, that has been plaguing us for YEARS. Players can remain stuck in combat for 30 minutes or more even after returning to their gate areas and literally doing nothing. Is this ever going to be fixed?
• Being unable to exit Cyrodiil delves. One of the few ways if not the only way to end the stuck in combat bug is to enter a delve in Cyrodiil. However, it's common to receive a campaign is full message when exiting a delve in prime time and thus being stuck in the delve for a bit. If I am in Cyrodiil, I should be part of the current campaign population that should guarantee me a place when I move from one part of Cyrodiil (a delve) to another part of Cyrodiil (the open world).
• The massive overtuning of Heavy Armor resistance especially with regard to Magic based skills/weapons. High Magicka/Spell Damage players can barely put a dent in the health of players outfitted with Heavy Armor and I'm not talking about tanks who take 3 digits worth of damage or even less depending on the attack/damage type.
• The damage underperformance of Light Armor for Magicka players. There is a negligible damage increase for players in Light Armor. A balanced game has Light Armor with High Damage and Low Resistance with Heavy Armor having Low Damage and High Resistance. Not ESO, as it has Light Armor with Low Damage and Low Resistance while Heavy Armor has High Damage and High Resistance. Battle Spirit could be used to remedy this problem without impacting PVE but for some reason this powerful manipulator of stats in Cyrodiil is not used to do so.
• The puzzling damage disparity between Stamina Weapon skills and Magicka Weapon skills. Watch players attack resource flag guards and you'll see this all the time. Players with Stamina Weapon skills can do 2x-3x as much damage as players with Magicka Weapon skills. It's not limited to ranged vs. melee differences as there are significant differences between bow players and destruction staff players.
• The overperformance of Vigor. There is absolutely no reason for this skill to heal so many players so significantly all at once. It's more powerful than Templar self heals. How does that make any sense? Stamina players deserve a strong self heal but this skill needs to have its effectiveness reduced significantly on targets beyond the caster, especially when multiple targets are affected.
• Heal stacking and stun evasion. I welcome feedback from others as I am still researching these two phenomena but these two events more so than high health and high resistances are the real reasons ball groups are so untouchable. Yes, gear, some skills, potions and constellation perks play a part; but there is something else going on here.
• Personal Pet Peeve: DK Chains and Dark Convergence are basically the same skill as they move player(s) to a new location nearby. However, Chains will fail north of 50% of the time while Dark Convergence is closer to a 0% failure rate. Yes, there is some stun evasion impacting Chains which is fine; but Dark Convergence seems to be a different beast altogether, especially when it permits stun stacking. Is it too much to ask to have both Chains and Dark Convergence work similarly?

For those who spend time in the various PVP elements of the game, please feel free to add to this list.

techprince

@ZOS_Kevin Is it possible to change one of the morphs of Bone Shield ability to cost magicka instead of stamina so that classes without access to magicka costing HP-based shields can utilize this skill?

Stx

Heavy armor offers no damage gains whatsoever…. Light armor and medium armor offer different stats. Now that everyone is a hybrid, whichever is better between light or medium really comes down to the overall game balance of stats. That and the armor passives which I still think are bad design and penalize light armor more. It would help if they removed those.

Solariken

Stx wrote: »

Heavy armor offers no damage gains whatsoever…. Light armor and medium armor offer different stats. Now that everyone is a hybrid, whichever is better between light or medium really comes down to the overall game balance of stats. That and the armor passives which I still think are bad design and penalize light armor more. It would help if they removed those.

Yeah the armor passives need some serious refinement. They are on the right track but like almost everything else in ZOS fashion, the ideas are half-baked.

Heavy armor should have some damage passives but should have no resource return IMO (except for maybe the heavy attack bonus).

Light armor needs more damage to offset the harshest penalties it suffers. More crit, more pen, and add stamina cost/recov.