PTS Update 37 - Feedback Thread for Combat & Classes

Pelanora

What the heck is a mana shield

The_Titan_Tim

Pelanora wrote: »

What the heck is a mana shield

They keep getting corrected on every forum but they keep calling it a mana shield, or referring to Magicka abilities as mana abilities. 😂

Melzo

Pelanora wrote: »

What the heck is a mana shield

I don’t know the name of the ability and briefly write what I mean too. I don't know the name in English. By the way, I don't really care. Does it hurt your eyes?

Pelanora

I didn't know what you were talking about. I still don't. What's a mana shield.

Pelanora

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

What the heck is a mana shield

They keep getting corrected on every forum but they keep calling it a mana shield, or referring to Magicka abilities as mana abilities. 😂

Oh. Because it could equally mean stamina, as in power. It could also mean your level, in the sense of status- like you need 150cp to run a shield. Mana in te reo maori is akin to status. 'Magic' is mākutu. So I was confused.

The_Titan_Tim

Pelanora wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

What the heck is a mana shield

They keep getting corrected on every forum but they keep calling it a mana shield, or referring to Magicka abilities as mana abilities. 😂

Oh. Because it could equally mean stamina. It could also mean your level, in the sense of status- like you need 150cp to run a shield. Mana in te reo maori is akin to status. So I was confused.

In pretty much every other RPG, your built up magic energy is referred to as Mana, which is why he’s calling it that. It’s easier to type out, even though it’s not correct, the point is received.

Pelanora

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Pelanora wrote: »

What the heck is a mana shield

They keep getting corrected on every forum but they keep calling it a mana shield, or referring to Magicka abilities as mana abilities. 😂

Oh. Because it could equally mean stamina. It could also mean your level, in the sense of status- like you need 150cp to run a shield. Mana in te reo maori is akin to status. So I was confused.

In pretty much every other RPG, your built up magic energy is referred to as Mana, which is why he’s calling it that. It’s easier to type out, even though it’s not correct, the point is received.

Ha. Well presumably the word is taken from various Pacifica languages, where its important, and where it just doesn't mean magic. So good on zos for using mag and stam, not mana.

StaticWave

Mana just sounds more familiar lol

Anyways, I'm not against buffing sorc. I'm a sorc main (stamsorc), so I'm all for buffing the class as a whole. However, I just don't think many people truly want the whole class buffed, but rather their spec (shield stacking sorc). This to me is not doing the class a favor.

Magsorc, while not as good as top tier classes, is no where as bad as it sounds. This is especially true in current meta where EVERYONE runs hybrid. Every magDK you see uses Noxious Breath and Corrosive instead of its mag variant. Every stamNB you see runs Concealed Weapon. I can go on.

Do you know why magsorc does not benefit as much from hybridization? It's because stamsorc is bad lol.. Stamsorc actually benefits more from hybridization because we could now use Curse, Frags, and next patch Hardened Ward. Meanwhile, magSorc can use what? Cwep and Bound Arms? This is why I said stamsorc needs more buffs than magsorc. A buff to stamsorc will allow magsorc to benefit more from hybridization.

This is not to say that magsorc can't hybridize. Vigor, Bound Arms, and Cwep are amazing and can be used in a hybrid build if the magsorc wants. I'm actually doing just that on my hybrid sorc, and the only thing I'm missing is a burst heal/shield. Next patch, I will be able to use HP scaling Hardened Ward, and my hybrid sorc will be much stronger than ever.

Pelanora

Sorc has fossilised into its preferred zos form and there's zero chance it will get the refresh everyones hoping for. Zos has said, in this thread, they have no intention adding buffs, or making it better, as classes struggling is 'good for diverse game play'.

Lambert has said the release of a new class won't see them reviewing how the existing classes look in comparison.

So it is what it is, people.

Anger, denial, grief, reconciliation.

Turtle_Bot

Tannus15 wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The combat team is always looking at data from various points of play (PvE, PvP, low-end to high-end damage parse, group content and solo play, etc.) and collective feedback across the board to make informed balanced adjustments. Many of the previous adjustments to Templar were directly made off of those points.
.

Interesting.

vDSR last boss HM damage rankings

Interesting indeed.
Stats are a fascinating beast.

Despite the over representation of DKs, they are apparently not the top performing class.

(A big spit in the face of all those 'Templar trash-tier' posts, apparently (based on these trial stats at least,) Templar is a solid A-tier class at worst, and is perfectly capable of outperforming DKs.)

I think referring to class usage stats as evidence that classes are unbalanced is a bit flawed, as class usage is fueled by the perception that there's an S tier/broken class.
People think class is broken -> they use it more -> class is used more -> this make people think that class is broken -> they use it more. It's a self fueling cycle.

The Solo Iron Atronach parses paint a very interesting picture.
The top 6 parses by Yezzll probably can be ignored, it seems something went wrong when submitting those times as they are highly unrealistic and wildly out of range of the rest of the parses. Taking that into account we can start at #7, which iiiis... a Magplar. Followed by some sorcerers.
You have to go down till #15 (#9, when adjusted) to find a stam DK and #26 (#20) for a mag DK.
The playing field looks a lot more even, based on this.

I'd hazard the guess that if DKs are really overperforming in a trial setting, than that's not because the class on an individual level is massively broken, but because all the buffs that specifically target Flame damage, like Encratis and Engulfing Flames.

This is exactly the problem and I think where the dev team have fallen into a trap of balancing PvE via dummy.

The dummy doesn't care about cleave or class buffs and debuffs. Sorcs looks great on the dummy compared to content however the majority of their skills are single target direct damage and have no other benefit.

DK's look average on the dummy but almost all of the skills they are using are AOE or are dots and proc burning.

here is an example of DK dps on Yolnah HM, probably the most single target fight in the game




here is sorc dps for the same fight



for the DK the 2nd highest dps skill is FOO. that hits multiple targets, procs burning and the more enemies the better is scales. if you need to stop and res or heavy attack for resources it continues to do damage.

the sorc on the other hand you have light attack, ele weapon and frag proc. the moment you stop casting skills the damage vanishes. it doesn't scale with more enemies. if you have to heavy attack for resources all of the highest damage skills are just gone.

the dummy doesn't care about this. you have enough sustain to never heavy attack the dummy.
there is no reason to block or stop spamming skills so it doesn't matter that a higher % of damage is from single target direct damage skills.
there is only one target so cleave from skills doesn't mean anything.

look at the sorc skill bar



where is the flex spot? hurricane maybe?

dk skill bar



if the dk really needed a heal or a shield or just to run a fight specific skill they have up to 3 flex spots in the back bar. carve, degen and camo hunter. this allows them to adjust to each fight as needed without losing too much dps.
they can run tri pots or heroism pots as they have easy access to major brutality / sorcery / prophecy / savagery.
they simply have more options.

none of this matters on a dummy parse.
this all looks "fine" if you use that as your primary balance metric.

Here is what a DK looks like in a cleave heavy fight, oaxilsto



How can a sorc every compete with that? talons, foo, standard, eruption. There is no sorc equivalent because they are all single target direct damage!

If classes were balanced around what they specialise in then sorcs would be smoking everyone on the dummy.
it's literally their perfect fight conditions. instead they are within a few % points.

Thank you @Tannus15 for posting this, it is very insightful and hopefully allows the devs to realise they need to better reflect the actual gameplay conditions when testing whether the classes are balanced or not instead of using bias and false tests that heavily skew the results.

@ZOS_Kevin Here is some very important imformation the combat team needs to see and really needs to consider when they determine class balance and this needs to be addressed directly, because testing and balancing via obviously bias test conditions such as using 1 single trial dummy only has completely thrown the class balance in pve out of whack when the designed content does not reflect the conditions the tests use as their determining factor.

This would actually very much explain why the team thinks sorc is in a good spot currently despite almost the entire player base saying otherwise, they are literally testing that class under its best possible conditions instead of testing it in actual content conditions and balancing the other classes around sorcs best conditions without accounting for the other classes better strengths in dealing with actual content through better access to AoE, buffs, debuffs, status effects, etc.
This would actually explain a lot of the issues with why there is such a huge disconnect between what the team sees in their testing and what is actually experienced in game by the players and as such, this needs to be addressed and urgently.

The final image here is the most telling. It shows the huge difference (and jump in DPS) when you get into actual content, with all of DKs AoE abilities that allows it to essentially get that same single target trial dummy parse value on all targets in its AoE meaning its true DPS in content gets multiplied by the number of targets, meanwhile sorcerer being stuck with limited and almost entirely single target options, the more targets there are, its DPS actually gets reduced by comparison because it has to focus each target individually instead of all at once meaning it takes significantly longer to kill the same number of enemies that the DK can simply breeze through.

Pelanora

The devs have never said they think sorc is in a good spot, they've said as per Kevin, they're not bothered by sorc being in a bad spot.

I think the wrong mental model is being assumed here.

Zos is absolutely happy dk breezes thru stuff, it's the class they are providing to ensure the game is playable by everyone, for as much mass consumption as possible.

Thecompton73

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

Actually thanks for bringing that scenario up because that’s what I was able to say for my next point.

Yes, shields are weaker at bringing someone out of execute range. That is why I said shield and healing have their own benefits and drawbacks.

That is also why you should include 1-2 HoTs in your build. Hybridization is an amazing thing.

That's a losing battle. Two hots are not going to do enough healing quick enough to get you out of execute before your shield pops and you lose even more health. By that logic using two Hots would mean the person with the burst heal should never drop to execute range in the first place either.

I play a stamsorc and I get out of execute range with 2 HoTs and no burst heal or a shield. Are you telling me a magsorc with 2 HoTs and a shield can’t do the same? Lol

Meh, I play a stam sorc with two hots and Rally and if I don't get a big burst from it when I'm in execute J-beam smokes me long before Vigor and Regen have me out. Even still I feel more survivable then I did when I was set up as a pure mag sorc spamming shields.

StaticWave

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

Actually thanks for bringing that scenario up because that’s what I was able to say for my next point.

Yes, shields are weaker at bringing someone out of execute range. That is why I said shield and healing have their own benefits and drawbacks.

That is also why you should include 1-2 HoTs in your build. Hybridization is an amazing thing.

That's a losing battle. Two hots are not going to do enough healing quick enough to get you out of execute before your shield pops and you lose even more health. By that logic using two Hots would mean the person with the burst heal should never drop to execute range in the first place either.

I play a stamsorc and I get out of execute range with 2 HoTs and no burst heal or a shield. Are you telling me a magsorc with 2 HoTs and a shield can’t do the same? Lol

Meh, I play a stam sorc with two hots and Rally and if I don't get a big burst from it when I'm in execute J-beam smokes me long before Vigor and Regen have me out. Even still I feel more survivable then I did when I was set up as a pure mag sorc spamming shields.

That's more of a Jesus beam being too strong though. Decent tooltip with a 500% scaling and being undodgable is hard to deal with. With that said, I've actually survived several J beam users by blocking with SnB and having Vigor + Surge active. When I had SnB ultimate up I could Dark Deal to get out of execute range. I'm pretty sure a magsorc can survive that with Harden + Dampen + Vigor

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

Actually thanks for bringing that scenario up because that’s what I was able to say for my next point.

Yes, shields are weaker at bringing someone out of execute range. That is why I said shield and healing have their own benefits and drawbacks.

That is also why you should include 1-2 HoTs in your build. Hybridization is an amazing thing.

That's a losing battle. Two hots are not going to do enough healing quick enough to get you out of execute before your shield pops and you lose even more health. By that logic using two Hots would mean the person with the burst heal should never drop to execute range in the first place either.

I play a stamsorc and I get out of execute range with 2 HoTs and no burst heal or a shield. Are you telling me a magsorc with 2 HoTs and a shield can’t do the same? Lol

Meh, I play a stam sorc with two hots and Rally and if I don't get a big burst from it when I'm in execute J-beam smokes me long before Vigor and Regen have me out. Even still I feel more survivable then I did when I was set up as a pure mag sorc spamming shields.

That's more of a Jesus beam being too strong though. Decent tooltip with a 500% scaling and being undodgable is hard to deal with. With that said, I've actually survived several J beam users by blocking with SnB and having Vigor + Surge active. When I had SnB ultimate up I could Dark Deal to get out of execute range. I'm pretty sure a magsorc can survive that with Harden + Dampen + Vigor

That depends on a lot going right for the magsorc to survive it.

1. both wards are already up and vigor ticking
2. how low they are (around 45-50% likely be fine, 25% or lower, not very likely)
3. how frequently beam ticks its damage
4. can they get out of range/LoS to avoid the follow up beam

sure, magsorc should survive it assuming they have 2 of the 3 (wards + vigor) already active when beam is cast as long as they are roughly close to 50% health and that beam ticks once every 0.6 or 0.9 seconds (assuming its 4 ticks over 1.8 seconds or 3 ticks over 1.8 seconds, ticking at 0, 0.6, 1.2 and 1.8 seconds or ticking at 0, 0.9 and 1.8 seconds respectively).

Either way, if the sorc has 1 of those factors going wrong, it won't survive without outside help.
Shields obey the GCD and cannot get block mitigation as well as taking the additional execute damage, meaning over that 1.8 seconds channel time, there will be a guaranteed double tick of beams damage meaning it will hit with at least 1 tick while the shields are down.
A single tick of beam wipes out any shield in 1 tick and with a guaranteed double tick within that 1 GCD period (either the first second or the second 0.8 seconds of the channel) it will land its damage guaranteed unless both shields are already up.

If the beam ticks 3 times, you might be able to get a shield back up in time to limit the damage, but won't completely negate it and vigor won't heal enough to pull you out of it's execute range unless you are already at 50%, if the beam ticks 4 times, it is 100% guaranteed to land 1 tick of that execute damage on the sorc itself, which if they are around 25% health, not even those shields can help them, that's just guaranteed death at that point. Also, what happens when the plar just uses beam a second time (as most just spam it now anyway), you have maybe 1 shield up and are still on low health due to having no burst healing to pull you out of execute range, that second beam is guaranteed death.

Turtle_Bot

Btw static, I agree with you that in terms of numerical buffs, sorc (mag, stam or hybrid) doesn't really need much if anything at all, and that what it mostly needs are fixes/updates more than buffs.

But magsorc is definitely no longer as tanky as many in the forums like to make them out to be unless they specifically build that way (all defensive/max stat sets and CP) and they have to give up on a lot of damage/pressure in the process.

Shields aren't as strong of a defense as they used to be, power creep in terms of freely available damage alongside various nerfs over the years, players generally getting better (or being carried harder by zos's new sets) and generally stronger builds has made sure of that.


This is the issue with trying to talk about magsorc. Magsorc is the only class that still focusses on max stats, every other class plays and functions around utilizing raw damage (and yes, stamsorc focuses on raw damage as well for its builds) which is what the current combat in eso is designed around.

It's why there's such a difference of opinion between stamsorcs and magsorcs in terms of what is needed to update/fix the class, because the 2 specs play in such different ways and sorcerer is the only class where the difference between mag, hybrid and stam playstyles are this big.

The other issue is that everyone remembers back when the game was suited to the magsorc playstyle, with max stats being much stronger for both offense and healing, everyone's base health was much lower, nobody started out with base damage before equipping anything and the game itself was much, much slower paced.
That older combat suited magsorc much more than it suited the other classes because magsorc was able to build for both offense and defense using the same single stat (max mag) and other classes needed to mix raw damage for offense and max stats for healing/sustain, while now it's the opposite, the other classes can build that way (only needing to build for raw damage to buff their offenses and healing), but magsorc can no longer do so (they need to split between raw damage for offense and max mag for defense).

The game has evolved well beyond the old magsorc playstyle and magsorc is the only class that has not been updated to reflect this change in how eso combat works.

Stamsorc needs help too, but when you look at stamsorc (and lesser extent hybridsorc) and what those builds realistically need the most is just a proper burst heal to allow them to play that in your face brawler playstyle that modern stamina and hybrid builds are capable of because the stamsorc (and hybridsorc) kit works much better with the current damage focused combat systems.
Meanwhile magsorc needs so much more in terms of fixes (not buffs, but fixes/updates) because it is still out here trying to play a max stat based 2018 style of eso when every other class is playing 2023 style eso because magsorcs kit is not designed to synergize with the current 2023 style of eso combat and it hasn't synergized ever since the damage/healing formulas were re-worked to move away from max stats and towards raw damage.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

Actually thanks for bringing that scenario up because that’s what I was able to say for my next point.

Yes, shields are weaker at bringing someone out of execute range. That is why I said shield and healing have their own benefits and drawbacks.

That is also why you should include 1-2 HoTs in your build. Hybridization is an amazing thing.

That's a losing battle. Two hots are not going to do enough healing quick enough to get you out of execute before your shield pops and you lose even more health. By that logic using two Hots would mean the person with the burst heal should never drop to execute range in the first place either.

I play a stamsorc and I get out of execute range with 2 HoTs and no burst heal or a shield. Are you telling me a magsorc with 2 HoTs and a shield can’t do the same? Lol

Meh, I play a stam sorc with two hots and Rally and if I don't get a big burst from it when I'm in execute J-beam smokes me long before Vigor and Regen have me out. Even still I feel more survivable then I did when I was set up as a pure mag sorc spamming shields.

That's more of a Jesus beam being too strong though. Decent tooltip with a 500% scaling and being undodgable is hard to deal with. With that said, I've actually survived several J beam users by blocking with SnB and having Vigor + Surge active. When I had SnB ultimate up I could Dark Deal to get out of execute range. I'm pretty sure a magsorc can survive that with Harden + Dampen + Vigor

That depends on a lot going right for the magsorc to survive it.

1. both wards are already up and vigor ticking
2. how low they are (around 45-50% likely be fine, 25% or lower, not very likely)
3. how frequently beam ticks its damage
4. can they get out of range/LoS to avoid the follow up beam

sure, magsorc should survive it assuming they have 2 of the 3 (wards + vigor) already active when beam is cast as long as they are roughly close to 50% health and that beam ticks once every 0.6 or 0.9 seconds (assuming its 4 ticks over 1.8 seconds or 3 ticks over 1.8 seconds, ticking at 0, 0.6, 1.2 and 1.8 seconds or ticking at 0, 0.9 and 1.8 seconds respectively).

Either way, if the sorc has 1 of those factors going wrong, it won't survive without outside help.
Shields obey the GCD and cannot get block mitigation as well as taking the additional execute damage, meaning over that 1.8 seconds channel time, there will be a guaranteed double tick of beams damage meaning it will hit with at least 1 tick while the shields are down.
A single tick of beam wipes out any shield in 1 tick and with a guaranteed double tick within that 1 GCD period (either the first second or the second 0.8 seconds of the channel) it will land its damage guaranteed unless both shields are already up.

If the beam ticks 3 times, you might be able to get a shield back up in time to limit the damage, but won't completely negate it and vigor won't heal enough to pull you out of it's execute range unless you are already at 50%, if the beam ticks 4 times, it is 100% guaranteed to land 1 tick of that execute damage on the sorc itself, which if they are around 25% health, not even those shields can help them, that's just guaranteed death at that point. Also, what happens when the plar just uses beam a second time (as most just spam it now anyway), you have maybe 1 shield up and are still on low health due to having no burst healing to pull you out of execute range, that second beam is guaranteed death.

Some abilities are going to overperform and will need to be nerfed. Jesus beam is one of them.

Also, we have established there are weaknesses and strength to shields. I'm not arguing which is better because they are better at some scenarios and worse at some scenarios. Shields are better against burst damage but worse at getting you out of execute range. Heals are better at getting you out of execute range but worse against burst damage.

That specific scenario of being jesus beamed and unable to get out of execute range is where shields are worse and heals are better. But like I said, people often neglect the scenarios where shields are better than heals, such as having a 20k shield to eat a 20k burst, to suit their agenda.

I'm just pointing out the things people need to consider before asking for buffs. Shields may get a slight cost reduction and maybe a slight size increase, but it shouldn't be much. You have to remember that hybridization is a thing now and buffing shield size too much could mean some builds will overperform defensively.

And I think I'm one of the few people who are willing to go against the crowd here (objectively of course). It's not like I don't want sorcs to be buffed lol. I've made plenty of sorc buff threads myself, but it should be reasonable.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Btw static, I agree with you that in terms of numerical buffs, sorc (mag, stam or hybrid) doesn't really need much if anything at all, and that what it mostly needs are fixes/updates more than buffs.

But magsorc is definitely no longer as tanky as many in the forums like to make them out to be unless they specifically build that way (all defensive/max stat sets and CP) and they have to give up on a lot of damage/pressure in the process.

Shields aren't as strong of a defense as they used to be, power creep in terms of freely available damage alongside various nerfs over the years, players generally getting better (or being carried harder by zos's new sets) and generally stronger builds has made sure of that.


This is the issue with trying to talk about magsorc. Magsorc is the only class that still focusses on max stats, every other class plays and functions around utilizing raw damage (and yes, stamsorc focuses on raw damage as well for its builds) which is what the current combat in eso is designed around.

It's why there's such a difference of opinion between stamsorcs and magsorcs in terms of what is needed to update/fix the class, because the 2 specs play in such different ways and sorcerer is the only class where the difference between mag, hybrid and stam playstyles are this big.

The other issue is that everyone remembers back when the game was suited to the magsorc playstyle, with max stats being much stronger for both offense and healing, everyone's base health was much lower, nobody started out with base damage before equipping anything and the game itself was much, much slower paced.
That older combat suited magsorc much more than it suited the other classes because magsorc was able to build for both offense and defense using the same single stat (max mag) and other classes needed to mix raw damage for offense and max stats for healing/sustain, while now it's the opposite, the other classes can build that way (only needing to build for raw damage to buff their offenses and healing), but magsorc can no longer do so (they need to split between raw damage for offense and max mag for defense).

The game has evolved well beyond the old magsorc playstyle and magsorc is the only class that has not been updated to reflect this change in how eso combat works.

Stamsorc needs help too, but when you look at stamsorc (and lesser extent hybridsorc) and what those builds realistically need the most is just a proper burst heal to allow them to play that in your face brawler playstyle that modern stamina and hybrid builds are capable of because the stamsorc (and hybridsorc) kit works much better with the current damage focused combat systems.
Meanwhile magsorc needs so much more in terms of fixes (not buffs, but fixes/updates) because it is still out here trying to play a max stat based 2018 style of eso when every other class is playing 2023 style eso because magsorcs kit is not designed to synergize with the current 2023 style of eso combat and it hasn't synergized ever since the damage/healing formulas were re-worked to move away from max stats and towards raw damage.

I completely agree with you about magsorc needing fixes. What concerns me is the overwhelming amount of comments asking for magsorc buffs but not stamsorc, when fundamentally they share the same issues. We have the same bar space issues as a magsorc, bad passives that just don't synergize, and overall a lack of good defense. We are on the same boat here when I'm saying both specs are bad.

I've suggested many times before that sorc, as a class, does not need more damage. What it needs is better sources of crit chance like its cousin NB, fixes to passives that are weird/outdated, and a burst heal (with balance changes to other abilities to compensate). It doesn't need much. However, most magsorcs only seem to want their shield-stacking playstyle buffed instead of the whole class, and it makes me wonder if they actually want the class buffed or just their specific spec.

StaticWave

This is also off topic, but hybridization basically proved that magicka has always been better than its stamina counterpart. Most classes are using magicka heals, magicka spammables, and even magicka delayed bursts. Making abilities scale with the highest offensive stat was a quick fix, but if you want to be competitive as a stam player, you better start going hybrid lol.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Btw static, I agree with you that in terms of numerical buffs, sorc (mag, stam or hybrid) doesn't really need much if anything at all, and that what it mostly needs are fixes/updates more than buffs.

But magsorc is definitely no longer as tanky as many in the forums like to make them out to be unless they specifically build that way (all defensive/max stat sets and CP) and they have to give up on a lot of damage/pressure in the process.

Shields aren't as strong of a defense as they used to be, power creep in terms of freely available damage alongside various nerfs over the years, players generally getting better (or being carried harder by zos's new sets) and generally stronger builds has made sure of that.


This is the issue with trying to talk about magsorc. Magsorc is the only class that still focusses on max stats, every other class plays and functions around utilizing raw damage (and yes, stamsorc focuses on raw damage as well for its builds) which is what the current combat in eso is designed around.

It's why there's such a difference of opinion between stamsorcs and magsorcs in terms of what is needed to update/fix the class, because the 2 specs play in such different ways and sorcerer is the only class where the difference between mag, hybrid and stam playstyles are this big.

The other issue is that everyone remembers back when the game was suited to the magsorc playstyle, with max stats being much stronger for both offense and healing, everyone's base health was much lower, nobody started out with base damage before equipping anything and the game itself was much, much slower paced.
That older combat suited magsorc much more than it suited the other classes because magsorc was able to build for both offense and defense using the same single stat (max mag) and other classes needed to mix raw damage for offense and max stats for healing/sustain, while now it's the opposite, the other classes can build that way (only needing to build for raw damage to buff their offenses and healing), but magsorc can no longer do so (they need to split between raw damage for offense and max mag for defense).

The game has evolved well beyond the old magsorc playstyle and magsorc is the only class that has not been updated to reflect this change in how eso combat works.

Stamsorc needs help too, but when you look at stamsorc (and lesser extent hybridsorc) and what those builds realistically need the most is just a proper burst heal to allow them to play that in your face brawler playstyle that modern stamina and hybrid builds are capable of because the stamsorc (and hybridsorc) kit works much better with the current damage focused combat systems.
Meanwhile magsorc needs so much more in terms of fixes (not buffs, but fixes/updates) because it is still out here trying to play a max stat based 2018 style of eso when every other class is playing 2023 style eso because magsorcs kit is not designed to synergize with the current 2023 style of eso combat and it hasn't synergized ever since the damage/healing formulas were re-worked to move away from max stats and towards raw damage.

I completely agree with you about magsorc needing fixes. What concerns me is the overwhelming amount of comments asking for magsorc buffs but not stamsorc, when fundamentally they share the same issues. We have the same bar space issues as a magsorc, bad passives that just don't synergize, and overall a lack of good defense. We are on the same boat here when I'm saying both specs are bad.

I've suggested many times before that sorc, as a class, does not need more damage. What it needs is better sources of crit chance like its cousin NB, fixes to passives that are weird/outdated, and a burst heal (with balance changes to other abilities to compensate). It doesn't need much. However, most magsorcs only seem to want their shield-stacking playstyle buffed instead of the whole class, and it makes me wonder if they actually want the class buffed or just their specific spec.

Fair enough, I think a nice compromise might be to make 1 morph of ward into a proper burst heal and have the other morph get some slightly better scaling the lower % health of the caster is (like an execute style ward that becomes bigger by up to 50% the lower the casters health is when it's cast at or below 50% health).
- This gives options for both stamina and magicka to choose between heals or wards however they prefer and prevents the possibility for stacking shields and reliable heals without some sort of draw back.
- This also allows shields to make up for some of their weakness in trying to escape low health, high pressure situations (the same way that healing can reduce its weakness of instant death burst by investing into a higher max health pool).


Then yeah, definitely some tidy-up and updates to passives and options for crit chance to better synergize and modernize the kit would help a lot.

The_Titan_Tim

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

Actually thanks for bringing that scenario up because that’s what I was able to say for my next point.

Yes, shields are weaker at bringing someone out of execute range. That is why I said shield and healing have their own benefits and drawbacks.

That is also why you should include 1-2 HoTs in your build. Hybridization is an amazing thing.

That's a losing battle. Two hots are not going to do enough healing quick enough to get you out of execute before your shield pops and you lose even more health. By that logic using two Hots would mean the person with the burst heal should never drop to execute range in the first place either.

I play a stamsorc and I get out of execute range with 2 HoTs and no burst heal or a shield. Are you telling me a magsorc with 2 HoTs and a shield can’t do the same? Lol

Meh, I play a stam sorc with two hots and Rally and if I don't get a big burst from it when I'm in execute J-beam smokes me long before Vigor and Regen have me out. Even still I feel more survivable then I did when I was set up as a pure mag sorc spamming shields.

That's more of a Jesus beam being too strong though. Decent tooltip with a 500% scaling and being undodgable is hard to deal with. With that said, I've actually survived several J beam users by blocking with SnB and having Vigor + Surge active. When I had SnB ultimate up I could Dark Deal to get out of execute range. I'm pretty sure a magsorc can survive that with Harden + Dampen + Vigor

That depends on a lot going right for the magsorc to survive it.

1. both wards are already up and vigor ticking
2. how low they are (around 45-50% likely be fine, 25% or lower, not very likely)
3. how frequently beam ticks its damage
4. can they get out of range/LoS to avoid the follow up beam

sure, magsorc should survive it assuming they have 2 of the 3 (wards + vigor) already active when beam is cast as long as they are roughly close to 50% health and that beam ticks once every 0.6 or 0.9 seconds (assuming its 4 ticks over 1.8 seconds or 3 ticks over 1.8 seconds, ticking at 0, 0.6, 1.2 and 1.8 seconds or ticking at 0, 0.9 and 1.8 seconds respectively).

Either way, if the sorc has 1 of those factors going wrong, it won't survive without outside help.
Shields obey the GCD and cannot get block mitigation as well as taking the additional execute damage, meaning over that 1.8 seconds channel time, there will be a guaranteed double tick of beams damage meaning it will hit with at least 1 tick while the shields are down.
A single tick of beam wipes out any shield in 1 tick and with a guaranteed double tick within that 1 GCD period (either the first second or the second 0.8 seconds of the channel) it will land its damage guaranteed unless both shields are already up.

If the beam ticks 3 times, you might be able to get a shield back up in time to limit the damage, but won't completely negate it and vigor won't heal enough to pull you out of it's execute range unless you are already at 50%, if the beam ticks 4 times, it is 100% guaranteed to land 1 tick of that execute damage on the sorc itself, which if they are around 25% health, not even those shields can help them, that's just guaranteed death at that point. Also, what happens when the plar just uses beam a second time (as most just spam it now anyway), you have maybe 1 shield up and are still on low health due to having no burst healing to pull you out of execute range, that second beam is guaranteed death.

Some abilities are going to overperform and will need to be nerfed. Jesus beam is one of them...

Executes are designed to… you know… finish people off. The fact that Radiant Destruction does just that is a good thing, and does not need to be nerfed. It is designed to finish off players and deals quite well with 7 well-fitted roll dodge spammers that run about 3 HoTs without a burst heal, being virtually unkillable otherwise.

You want to discuss an imbalance, look at Executioner or Assassin’s Blade… why are they dodgeable? Why are executes avoidable? It completely defeats the purpose as you put them on your bar to ensure a kill once a player reaches a certain health threshold, taking an entire slot up in the process.

Not to mention Mage’s Wrath is the best execute in the game but nobody talks about it on the forums, weird enough. The ability is literally a fire and forget, you throw it on players BEFORE they are even in execute range, and watch as you rack up kills in Battlegrounds.

Edit: Just wanted to throw it out there too, Sorcs are the #1 most complained about teammates in Battlegrounds, solely because of Mage’s Wrath, and how much it overperforms at finishing off targets.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

This is also off topic, but hybridization basically proved that magicka has always been better than its stamina counterpart. Most classes are using magicka heals, magicka spammables, and even magicka delayed bursts. Making abilities scale with the highest offensive stat was a quick fix, but if you want to be competitive as a stam player, you better start going hybrid lol.

Mag and stam have always had their advantages and disadvantages.

Mag has better heals for sure, but stam has always had better mitigation, especially accounting for core combat mechanics (block, dodge roll, break free, etc that until fairly recently was exclusively locked to stamina).

Stamina used to also generally hit much harder, while mag skills generally had better utility/secondary effects.

Lately magicka has gotten a lot of improvements, but most of that is the classes that are currently at the top.
- NB got insane over tuned buffs to its mag spammable
- DKs whip was a choice of mag or mag (now mag or hybrid), also flame damage is super strong right now in pvp with everyone being vampire
- warden is forced into frost staff (so its basically forced into mag by default)

AdamLAD

I want sorcerer as a whole to be buffed not just shield stacking option. I'm just fighting for that more simply due to the fact is the weakest out of all the styles of play by a huge margine and has been for many many years hence why people do not use them anymore. I do not play stamina or hybrid sorcerer however just looking at the passives and the kit vs other classes just at base it's obvious not as powerful as a Dk, Nb, Wardens and to a less extent a temp. Necro is garbage outside of bombing groups. Some of our passives are utterly terrible. I'm in full support of having empowered ward being a burst heal, making pets one bar, reworking passives, buffing darkdeal/morphs, making BOL do more ect as it would help the class in every possible playstyle. Just do not forget about the weakest form of sorcerer and that's pure max magicka shield sorcerer. It's the most favourite style of play across the board for mag specs and it's becoming more and more redundant due to it underperforming massively in today's climate. But yes the class as a whole needs buffing not just that one playstyle

The_Titan_Tim

AdamLAD wrote: »

I want sorcerer as a whole to be buffed not just shield stacking option. I'm just fighting for that more simply due to the fact is the weakest out of all the styles of play by a huge margine and has been for many many years hence why people do not use them anymore. I do not play stamina or hybrid sorcerer however just looking at the passives and the kit vs other classes just at base it's obvious not as powerful as a Dk, Nb, Wardens and to a less extent a temp. Necro is garbage outside of bombing groups. Some of our passives are utterly terrible. I'm in full support of having empowered ward being a burst heal, making pets one bar, reworking passives, buffing darkdeal/morphs, making BOL do more ect as it would help the class in every possible playstyle. Just do not forget about the weakest form of sorcerer and that's pure max magicka shield sorcerer. It's the most favourite style of play across the board for mag specs and it's becoming more and more redundant due to it underperforming massively in today's climate. But yes the class as a whole needs buffing not just that one playstyle

People don’t play MagSorc in PvP because it is extremely unfriendly to new players, while extremely rewarding to veterans.

Any class, in any game, that has a steep learning curve to it, will be looked over by the majority.

Edit; I shouldn’t say people don’t play MagSorc in PvP, they are literally everywhere. Just not in duels, and that’s due to that skill curve.

It’s much easier to play a Dragonknight and DoT people up, or go invisible to blast someone with a 20k critical Spectral Bow.

I’m also in favor of making pets one-bar with a 20-30 second duration attached to them, but I don’t believe Sorcerer’s deserve better heals, that is their weak point, it’s always been that way. If they get an instant-cast burst heal unassociated with pets, like every other class, I want Shadowy Disguise or a functioning Streak on my Templar. I’d also like Battle Roar too while we’re at it.

Ecgberht_confused

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If they get an instant-cast burst heal unassociated with pets, like every other class, I want Shadowy Disguise or a functioning Streak on my Templar. I’d also like Battle Roar too while we’re at it.

But NB does have both shadowy disguise AND an instant cast heal? Why is that fair for NB but not sorc?

StaticWave

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

Except that we've explained again and again that the buffs to shields are not adequate and do nothing to actually help out magicka sorcerer - the spec of sorcerer that actually needs help, and that the shields as a whole do. not. work. as they are in PVP. They are fundamentally, mechanically, inferior to healing and blocking. The buff isn't "significant" it is extremely negligible. The shields in their current state are deleted by single attacks and the buff will do nothing to take them out of that range.

- The stam spec actually needs help too, if you were talking about pure stam (meaning not slotting any magicka offensive skills).
- You are not doing a fair comparison by saying shield < healing + blocking. The correct comparison would be shield + blocking vs healing + blocking, to which each has its own benefits and drawbacks.
- Even shield vs healing has their own benefits and drawbacks.
- Healing will also get deleted by single attacks unless you block them. Your shield will get deleted by single attacks unless you block them.

I think you're neglecting too many things to try and make it sound like shields are much worse. I don't think it's an honest argument to make.

Block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. So Block + Shield is meaningless. Your shield will take the same damage either way.

Yes, shields will take the same damage with or without blocking, but that does not mean it’s meaningless. You still need to block so that you don’t get stunned.

In fact, I think ZOS purposely made shields take full damage even while blocking because fundamentally shields are stronger than heals.

Let’s use this example:

Say you have 25k HP and 10k shield, while another guy has 25k HP but can burst heal for 10k.

If both of you block a 10k burst while also casting your shield and the other guy casting his 10k heal, then both of you will still be at full HP. If both of you don't block the burst, then you will still be at 25k HP because we know block mitigation doesn't apply to shields. However, the guy will now be at 15k HP and be susceptible to execute damage if he gets stunned.

This is the fundamental difference that makes shields better than heals. It puts a temporary pseudo HP bar over your actual HP bar so that in the case you do take a lot of damage, you are still not at risk of falling in the execute range.

If ZOS allowed shields to receive block mitigation, then it would simply be TOO STRONG. There is no way anybody can get through that shield if blocking can reduce the damage you take by 60-70% lol.

The only reason why shield seems worse is due to heals being able to crit. As soon as you make shields crittable, can scale with spell damage, and have modifiers like Healing Done, shields will be much stronger than heals by a large margin.

You forgot the scenario where both are already in execute range. The toon with the burst heal blocks and casts the heal which takes their health up above 50% so the execute ability they're hit with next does negligible damage. The toon with the shield blocks and casts a shield, which lasts half a GCD and they die because shields don't stop an execute from scaling up to 250-400% and cutting right through the shield and the block to take what little remaining health they have.

Actually thanks for bringing that scenario up because that’s what I was able to say for my next point.

Yes, shields are weaker at bringing someone out of execute range. That is why I said shield and healing have their own benefits and drawbacks.

That is also why you should include 1-2 HoTs in your build. Hybridization is an amazing thing.

That's a losing battle. Two hots are not going to do enough healing quick enough to get you out of execute before your shield pops and you lose even more health. By that logic using two Hots would mean the person with the burst heal should never drop to execute range in the first place either.

I play a stamsorc and I get out of execute range with 2 HoTs and no burst heal or a shield. Are you telling me a magsorc with 2 HoTs and a shield can’t do the same? Lol

Meh, I play a stam sorc with two hots and Rally and if I don't get a big burst from it when I'm in execute J-beam smokes me long before Vigor and Regen have me out. Even still I feel more survivable then I did when I was set up as a pure mag sorc spamming shields.

That's more of a Jesus beam being too strong though. Decent tooltip with a 500% scaling and being undodgable is hard to deal with. With that said, I've actually survived several J beam users by blocking with SnB and having Vigor + Surge active. When I had SnB ultimate up I could Dark Deal to get out of execute range. I'm pretty sure a magsorc can survive that with Harden + Dampen + Vigor

That depends on a lot going right for the magsorc to survive it.

1. both wards are already up and vigor ticking
2. how low they are (around 45-50% likely be fine, 25% or lower, not very likely)
3. how frequently beam ticks its damage
4. can they get out of range/LoS to avoid the follow up beam

sure, magsorc should survive it assuming they have 2 of the 3 (wards + vigor) already active when beam is cast as long as they are roughly close to 50% health and that beam ticks once every 0.6 or 0.9 seconds (assuming its 4 ticks over 1.8 seconds or 3 ticks over 1.8 seconds, ticking at 0, 0.6, 1.2 and 1.8 seconds or ticking at 0, 0.9 and 1.8 seconds respectively).

Either way, if the sorc has 1 of those factors going wrong, it won't survive without outside help.
Shields obey the GCD and cannot get block mitigation as well as taking the additional execute damage, meaning over that 1.8 seconds channel time, there will be a guaranteed double tick of beams damage meaning it will hit with at least 1 tick while the shields are down.
A single tick of beam wipes out any shield in 1 tick and with a guaranteed double tick within that 1 GCD period (either the first second or the second 0.8 seconds of the channel) it will land its damage guaranteed unless both shields are already up.

If the beam ticks 3 times, you might be able to get a shield back up in time to limit the damage, but won't completely negate it and vigor won't heal enough to pull you out of it's execute range unless you are already at 50%, if the beam ticks 4 times, it is 100% guaranteed to land 1 tick of that execute damage on the sorc itself, which if they are around 25% health, not even those shields can help them, that's just guaranteed death at that point. Also, what happens when the plar just uses beam a second time (as most just spam it now anyway), you have maybe 1 shield up and are still on low health due to having no burst healing to pull you out of execute range, that second beam is guaranteed death.

Some abilities are going to overperform and will need to be nerfed. Jesus beam is one of them...

Executes are designed to… you know… finish people off. The fact that Radiant Destruction does just that is a good thing, and does not need to be nerfed. It is designed to finish off players and deals quite well with 7 well-fitted roll dodge spammers that run about 3 HoTs without a burst heal, being virtually unkillable otherwise.

You want to discuss an imbalance, look at Executioner or Assassin’s Blade… why are they dodgeable? Why are executes avoidable? It completely defeats the purpose as you put them on your bar to ensure a kill once a player reaches a certain health threshold, taking an entire slot up in the process.

Not to mention Mage’s Wrath is the best execute in the game but nobody talks about it on the forums, weird enough. The ability is literally a fire and forget, you throw it on players BEFORE they are even in execute range, and watch as you rack up kills in Battlegrounds.

Edit: Just wanted to throw it out there too, Sorcs are the #1 most complained about teammates in Battlegrounds, solely because of Mage’s Wrath, and how much it overperforms at finishing off targets.

Undodgable executes with a big tooltip and a 20m range is a bad game design. Steel Tornado was an undodgable execute with a 9m range and got nerfed (rightfully so). It was so strong that people used it as both a spammable and an execute.


Before Templar nerf, you could literally kill people with just Jesus Beam, a few DoTs, and Purifying Light. Yes, people actually used Jesus Beam as their "spammable" and could still effectively kill people lol. The scaling was just ridiculous.

Turtle_Bot

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

I want sorcerer as a whole to be buffed not just shield stacking option. I'm just fighting for that more simply due to the fact is the weakest out of all the styles of play by a huge margine and has been for many many years hence why people do not use them anymore. I do not play stamina or hybrid sorcerer however just looking at the passives and the kit vs other classes just at base it's obvious not as powerful as a Dk, Nb, Wardens and to a less extent a temp. Necro is garbage outside of bombing groups. Some of our passives are utterly terrible. I'm in full support of having empowered ward being a burst heal, making pets one bar, reworking passives, buffing darkdeal/morphs, making BOL do more ect as it would help the class in every possible playstyle. Just do not forget about the weakest form of sorcerer and that's pure max magicka shield sorcerer. It's the most favourite style of play across the board for mag specs and it's becoming more and more redundant due to it underperforming massively in today's climate. But yes the class as a whole needs buffing not just that one playstyle

People don’t play MagSorc in PvP because it is extremely unfriendly to new players, while extremely rewarding to veterans.

Any class, in any game, that has a steep learning curve to it, will be looked over by the majority.

Edit; I shouldn’t say people don’t play MagSorc in PvP, they are literally everywhere. Just not in duels, and that’s due to that skill curve.

It’s much easier to play a Dragonknight and DoT people up, or go invisible to blast someone with a 20k critical Spectral Bow.

I’m also in favor of making pets one-bar with a 20-30 second duration attached to them, but I don’t believe Sorcerer’s deserve better heals, that is their weak point, it’s always been that way. If they get an instant-cast burst heal unassociated with pets, like every other class, I want Shadowy Disguise or a functioning Streak on my Templar. I’d also like Battle Roar too while we’re at it.

You're basically getting an alternative to ball of lightning with the new mist form skill, so I think its fair if sorcs get a burst heal as a morph of ward so that they have an instant cast heal not tied to pets at the cost of giving up their shield.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is also off topic, but hybridization basically proved that magicka has always been better than its stamina counterpart. Most classes are using magicka heals, magicka spammables, and even magicka delayed bursts. Making abilities scale with the highest offensive stat was a quick fix, but if you want to be competitive as a stam player, you better start going hybrid lol.

Mag and stam have always had their advantages and disadvantages.

Mag has better heals for sure, but stam has always had better mitigation, especially accounting for core combat mechanics (block, dodge roll, break free, etc that until fairly recently was exclusively locked to stamina).

Stamina used to also generally hit much harder, while mag skills generally had better utility/secondary effects.

Lately magicka has gotten a lot of improvements, but most of that is the classes that are currently at the top.
- NB got insane over tuned buffs to its mag spammable
- DKs whip was a choice of mag or mag (now mag or hybrid), also flame damage is super strong right now in pvp with everyone being vampire
- warden is forced into frost staff (so its basically forced into mag by default)

A major reason for stam having much more mitigation and hitting harder is due to being melee. That gap has closed over the years when armor became easily accessible and weapon skill lines were nerfed.

Class ability wise, magicka generally had better morphs and abilities, with exceptions like Surprise Attack, Noxious Breath, etc. being better as a stam morph.

However my point is that hybridization lets players choose the best morph for their class, and the majority of them are magicka. I wish for ZOS to change this by introducing better stam morphs outside of weapon abilities so that players can have more options.

maxjapank

StaticWave wrote: »

Undodgable executes with a big tooltip and a 20m range is a bad game design. Steel Tornado was an undodgable execute with a 9m range and got nerfed (rightfully so). It was so strong that people used it as both a spammable and an execute.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Steel Tornado is an aoe execute. Radiant is single target. It'd be better to compare Impale and Radiant. Impale is dodgeable, but then again it isn't a channel either. There are downsides to being channels. And Radiant only tickles until under 20% anyways. And having a skill to counter dodge rolling is important. Besides, we don't want all classes to be the same.

TechMaybeHic

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

This is also off topic, but hybridization basically proved that magicka has always been better than its stamina counterpart. Most classes are using magicka heals, magicka spammables, and even magicka delayed bursts. Making abilities scale with the highest offensive stat was a quick fix, but if you want to be competitive as a stam player, you better start going hybrid lol.

Mag and stam have always had their advantages and disadvantages.

Mag has better heals for sure, but stam has always had better mitigation, especially accounting for core combat mechanics (block, dodge roll, break free, etc that until fairly recently was exclusively locked to stamina).

Stamina used to also generally hit much harder, while mag skills generally had better utility/secondary effects.

Lately magicka has gotten a lot of improvements, but most of that is the classes that are currently at the top.
- NB got insane over tuned buffs to its mag spammable
- DKs whip was a choice of mag or mag (now mag or hybrid), also flame damage is super strong right now in pvp with everyone being vampire
- warden is forced into frost staff (so its basically forced into mag by default)

A major reason for stam having much more mitigation and hitting harder is due to being melee. That gap has closed over the years when armor became easily accessible and weapon skill lines were nerfed.

Class ability wise, magicka generally had better morphs and abilities, with exceptions like Surprise Attack, Noxious Breath, etc. being better as a stam morph.

However my point is that hybridization lets players choose the best morph for their class, and the majority of them are magicka. I wish for ZOS to change this by introducing better stam morphs outside of weapon abilities so that players can have more options.

It always seemed to me, it was because the magic morph got X and Y new feature, and the stam morphs often had "no costs stamina and does *insert stam type damage here*" and there were a lot less morphs.

I know the reason I have not wanted to run my sorc is, I dislike the shield play style and lack of burst heal without double barring and that takes it too far IMO with bar soace. I think scaling for shields would be good for that plastyle but I don't see any reason to say sorcs shouldn't have a single bar burst heal option when EVERY class literally now has one. It's not just Templar any more. More is a purge just Templar as that's passed out like candy on new classes and sets o I don't see why Temples burst ability shouldn't work also and would gladly give up beam

Sun7dance

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If they get an instant-cast burst heal unassociated with pets, like every other class, I want Shadowy Disguise or a functioning Streak on my Templar. I’d also like Battle Roar too while we’re at it.

But NB does have both shadowy disguise AND an instant cast heal? Why is that fair for NB but not sorc?

"Malevolent Offering" is a very risky skill, coz the healing often hits other players. The range is pretty high. Furthermore the skill must crit, otherwise it's weak and expensive.
What's the average critical chance of Nbs in PvP? Maybe 30 to 45%?
So in the end you get two big "ifs".

Duels are a different story of course!