New Ravenwatch - PC EU

Tigor

Could the AD ball groups leave our campaign? It is creating to much lag.

DTStormfox

Why does ZOS not ban these ball group guilds?

All they do is take a keep and run over players over and over again to farm AP. As a result, they ruin the fun for all other players who want to play the objectives. They are literally immune to everything because greatly benefit from proc sets.

This could be considered griefing (Code of Conduct section 2.3) : You may not harass, threaten, intentionally humiliate, “stream snipe”, “name and shame”, engage in acts of “griefing”, or cause distress to another user, guest, or ZeniMax staff member/teams using ZeniMax sites and Services.

The definition of Griefing is: "Griefing' is a term used to describe when a player within a multiplayer online environment intentionally disrupts another player's game experience for his or her own personal enjoyment or gain"

They literally disrupt the other player's game experience by farming other players instead of playing the intended PvP objectives. It is griefing because they take keeps to FARM players. They don't play any of the objectives. They only run around in a ball to farm AP. While it is impossible to kill them.

JamieAubrey

Tigor wrote: »

Could the AD ball groups leave our campaign? It is creating to much lag.

EP and DC should follow them, lets all have a nice smooth game

heng14rwb17_ESO

THIS IS ABOMINATION !

red_emu

Ravenwatch has become a troll heaven, groups upon groups not playing the objectives. Then on the other hand you've got zergs. Come to think of it, who can blame them? We've had the same old system for years. The best ZOS could do is throw in a Volendrung then scrapped the idea of disruptor daedric weapons.

I wonder what else could be done with Cyro to breath some life into it? (and I'm not talking about making it a PvE zone).

LarsS

ZOS could make the campaigns more meaningsfull. Like making campaign points dependent on population (reduce points on low pop server) buff the stats of alliances with few keeps and scrolls, now it is the other way around. Instead dominating could get more AP. Random events which for a limited time give special equipments if you can capture the objective and so on.

Alucardo

pls fix lag. Literally jabbing this guy point blank range and zero hits registered. Can't bar swap. Smashing vigor and potions like 8 times before they go off. It's just.. how do you charge people real money for this game and still manage to sleep at night? Active PvPers should get free or discounted eso+ for the crap they've had to put up with over the years, and things are only getting worse. AAARGGHHHH

red_emu

Alucardo wrote: »

pls fix lag. Literally jabbing this guy point blank range and zero hits registered. Can't bar swap. Smashing vigor and potions like 8 times before they go off. It's just.. how do you charge people real money for this game and still manage to sleep at night? Active PvPers should get free or discounted eso+ for the crap they've had to put up with over the years, and things are only getting worse. AAARGGHHHH

And all this while the "magic MYM servers are on". I'm dreading to think what's it gonna look like when the capacity is rediverted again 😳

red_emu

LarsS wrote: »

ZOS could make the campaigns more meaningsfull. Like making campaign points dependent on population (reduce points on low pop server) buff the stats of alliances with few keeps and scrolls, now it is the other way around. Instead dominating could get more AP. Random events which for a limited time give special equipments if you can capture the objective and so on.

I always had this idea (assuming the lag issues would somehow be resolved) about Worm Cult and daedra pouring out of IC.

Every alliance has the broken bridge connecting to the island. Would be cool if there was a random event (or maybe not random and based on whichever side has the highest pop?) where the Imperial Legion calls for aid in holding back the assault and if left unchecked, the "baddies" would destroy and occupy Chal/Brk, Alessia/Roe, Ash/Ales halting an emp run and diverting players to either team up against Worm Cult or cause mayhem in the area.

If left unchecked they could proceed to capute/destroy the resources of keeps deeper in.

The NPCs would have to be pretty powerful though (as in more powerful than keep guards).

Maybe it's a silly concept but it would surely help in splitting up full faction zergs moving in a blob around the map?

Tigor

Ballgroups everywere again, like most monday evenings. It makes PVP dead and players leaving. The lowest of the lowest playstyle. Only AP farming, so bad.

DTStormfox

Another Monday evening in which the AD ball group completely ignores DC pushing for the emperor and lost home keeps. Instead, they are farming EP at Farragut. I completely understand why players have left AD en masse. The ball groups are literally not caring about their alliance at all. They care only about their own AP counter and kills. A message to ball groups: Cyrodiil is more than just AP and kills, it also actually has objectives!

JamieAubrey

DTStormfox wrote: »

Another Monday evening in which the AD ball group completely ignores DC pushing for the emperor and lost home keeps. Instead, they are farming EP at Farragut. I completely understand why players have left AD en masse. The ball groups are literally not caring about their alliance at all. They care only about their own AP counter and kills. A message to ball groups: Cyrodiil is more than just AP and kills, it also actually has objectives!

Only 2 AD groups troll and that's Fist and Lagacy, Only Lights is the group that plays for the campaign and we can't be at every keep, looking at that image, if there's a troll group at Farra/Arrius then we would go for a scroll and run it home, 9/10 we get it home or we would get chased from YOUR troll group Nova

Also why should AD be the one to stop the EMP push ? oh that's right, EP and DC work together so EP would let DC get EMP and vice versa

vesselwiththepestle

JamieAubrey wrote: »

Only 2 AD groups troll and that's Fist and Lagacy, Only Lights is the group that plays for the campaign

Maybe true on Monday. AD has with Wheeled and that other group (ZS? Roleplay Circle? idk they seem to change names a lot) two more "troll" groups. I thought Yovens and Phoenix are playing the campaign, too?

JamieAubrey wrote: »

oh that's right, EP and DC work together so EP would let DC get EMP and vice versa

Lol, I almost took you serious.

Thraben

JamieAubrey wrote: »

Also why should AD be the one to stop the EMP push ? oh that's right, EP and DC work together so EP would let DC get EMP and vice versa

DC does not even cooperate with DC for emp. The Roe-Chal frontier at which DC stops to push every night is no coincidence; it is because we don't want the other factions's player to log out.


The reason why DC is less bothered by enemy ball groups is because DC players are more likely to know how to counter them, and thus the unorganised players feel more safe. Force your players to use Inevitable Detonation, and you will see HUGE changes in this regard.

DTStormfox

JamieAubrey wrote: »

Only 2 AD groups troll and that's Fist and Lagacy, Only Lights is the group that plays for the campaign and we can't be at every keep, looking at that image, if there's a troll group at Farra/Arrius then we would go for a scroll and run it home, 9/10 we get it home or we would get chased from YOUR troll group Nova

Also why should AD be the one to stop the EMP push ? oh that's right, EP and DC work together so EP would let DC get EMP and vice versa

First of all, I don't want to call any names of guilds because I don't want to shame them. Let me break your comment down point by point.

JamieAubrey wrote: »

we can't be at every keep, looking at that image, if there's a troll group at Farra/Arrius then we would go for a scroll and run it home

I am not saying you need to be at every keep. The point is, this AD ball group had nothing to gain from attacking Farragut because (1) they didn't have their Alliance scrolls, which means they can't take the blue scroll from Farragut. And (2), it is strategically irrelevant for AD to attack Farragut, in the situation shown in the image, because no 'enemy keep bonuses' apply if you don't own all your 'home keeps' first. It would actually be to the benefit of ball groups to first recapture their home keeps because owning all your home keeps: "Increases experience, alliance points, and gold gained from kills by 5%."

Second, the AD ball group did take their scroll from Kingscrest keep. However, they didn't bring it home, as you imply. Instead, they just run around aimlessly with the scroll to bait players and farm them for kills and AP. More than often, they do not bring the scroll home. That also counts for EP and DC ball groups. They also use the scroll as bait and do not return them home.

So, this complaint about the AD ball groups also applies to DC and EP ball groups: Stop the farming and play the objectives. Currently, ball groups are nothing more than an annoyance in the game. It would also be to the benefit of the ball group's reputation if they actually played the objectives.

JamieAubrey wrote: »

Also why should AD be the one to stop the EMP push ? oh that's right, EP and DC work together so EP would let DC get EMP and vice versa

Do you really believe this? I've also heard conspiracy theories about EP and AD working together to get DC emp. And I've heard conspiracy theories about AD and DC working together. To my knowledge, these so-called green, purple, and orange alliances do not exist.

tonyblack

DTStormfox wrote: »

Another Monday evening in which the AD ball group completely ignores DC pushing for the emperor and lost home keeps. Instead, they are farming EP at Farragut. I completely understand why players have left AD en masse. The ball groups are literally not caring about their alliance at all. They care only about their own AP counter and kills. A message to ball groups: Cyrodiil is more than just AP and kills, it also actually has objectives!

AD left ravenwatch en masse because it is simpler for them to farm underpop alliances in gray host and roleplay winners. DC did the same, massively switching from gh to rw. What is the point to worry about objectives when last campaigns ended with such big score differences? Ball groups in that case completely irrelevant since they did that for years.

vesselwiththepestle

Tigor wrote: »

[snip]

Well, they definitely are not lazy, because they probably invest a lot of time into theory crafting, looking at logs, trying out new stuff, practicing combos etc. You could say though, part of their "success" comes from playing another game. Just have a look at Battlegrounds. When you get into a BG with an objective - like Relics or Chaos Ball - and you play like you are in a Deathmatch... You'll probably get more kills than a team which tries to play accordingly to the objective. In Cyrodiil Ball Groups set their own goals, while their enemies probably have different goals. Those can be very diverse, as "I am a big smallscaler and want to show off by farming trash players", "I want to win this campaign", "I am responsible for 11 players in my group and want to make sure everyone has fun", "I hate ball groups and I want to destroy them", "I am zerg surfing to get reward level 1"... So we have many players who play the same game, but not really, because they all have different motivations and goals. Ballgroups are know this very well and use it to their advantage.

So, to get to the point: What are they thinking? They are probably playing a completely different game than you do.

[edited to remove quote]

Tigor

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

[snip]

Well, they definitely are not lazy, because they probably invest a lot of time into theory crafting, looking at logs, trying out new stuff, practicing combos etc.

Ballgroups are Lazy in using energy to put work together for the benifit of the alliance. They might be investing a lot in preparing the group, only that energy has proven not to count in Cyrodiil. They are playing with eyecaps, and don't co-operate. The only "success" they achieve is people to log off because of the boredom, but what fine this will all soon be over.

[edited to remove quote]

InvitationNotFound

Tigor wrote: »

[snip]

Tigor wrote: »

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

[snip]

Well, they definitely are not lazy, because they probably invest a lot of time into theory crafting, looking at logs, trying out new stuff, practicing combos etc.

Ballgroups are Lazy in using energy to put work together for the benifit of the alliance. They might be investing a lot in preparing the group, only that energy has proven not to count in Cyrodiil. They are playing with eyecaps, and don't co-operate. The only "success" they achieve is people to log off because of the boredom, but what fine this will all soon be over.

It is 2021.

Who the hell is playing for winning the campaign?
It does not matter. There aren't any good rewards. Nothing.
Furthermore, the score is influenced primarily outside of the prime time by night and morning caping (and so on). You do not even have an impact on that score during prime time. So why even bother? Like "Oh look at us. We won the campaign. We zerged the whole campaign every morning! Damn, we are so proud of our achievement! Faction pride man! Best alliance ever! my alliance > your alliance".

Basically this. And paired with ignorance and arrogance. As if zerging the hell out of the map is not lazy [snip].

[edited for profanity bypass & to remove quote]

tamanosou

Tigor wrote: »

[snip]

[snip] We're friends in-game and I'm a ball group player. So I dunno why he'd stay friends with ballers if he actually has a problem with our play style. I stay friends with him because I honestly love his forum posts. And zonechats.

Once again, ball groups are not the source of the lag. We're generally playing the game the way it's meant to be played. There wouldn't be tactical environmental features if the designers didn't want this form of play. And you will find if you've ever played in a proper ball group that the most lag is had when encountering zergs. More players more problems. I really enjoy running over a zerg time and time again, but I don't think any ballgroup would mind if the zergers just disappeared. Playing against other ballgroups or semi-organized non-pug groups is actually challenging which is what appeals to ballers. It's less fun to play against small scalers for pretty obvious reasons but small scalers put thought and time into their builds whereas pick up groups and zergers just don't. So I respect the small scalers whereas I'm afraid I just don't have the same approach to zergers.

But this brings me to the final point here. [snip] I note this has already been addressed but we do put a lot of effort into theory crafting, unit cohesion etc. and we actually do practice. You have to audition to be a member of any decent ballgroup and as with any decent PVE group there's a pretty high chance you will be rejected. This doesn't make you a bad player, it just means either you didn't put in enough effort for the guild you were applying to or you don't mesh well with the other members. I have and still do occasionally zerg when I actually want to be lazy, but it's my guilty pleasure/means of making sure I have enough transmutation stones.

As for the homework thing: lol, I guess I'll assign less so my students can play ESO.

[edited to remove quote & for baiting]

Tigor

tamanosou wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

[snip]

[snip] We're friends in-game and I'm a ball group player. So I dunno why he'd stay friends with ballers if he actually has a problem with our play style. I stay friends with him because I honestly love his forum posts. And zonechats.

Once again, ball groups are not the source of the lag. We're generally playing the game the way it's meant to be played. There wouldn't be tactical environmental features if the designers didn't want this form of play. And you will find if you've ever played in a proper ball group that the most lag is had when encountering zergs. More players more problems. I really enjoy running over a zerg time and time again, but I don't think any ballgroup would mind if the zergers just disappeared. Playing against other ballgroups or semi-organized non-pug groups is actually challenging which is what appeals to ballers. It's less fun to play against small scalers for pretty obvious reasons but small scalers put thought and time into their builds whereas pick up groups and zergers just don't. So I respect the small scalers whereas I'm afraid I just don't have the same approach to zergers.

But this brings me to the final point here. [snip] I note this has already been addressed but we do put a lot of effort into theory crafting, unit cohesion etc. and we actually do practice. You have to audition to be a member of any decent ballgroup and as with any decent PVE group there's a pretty high chance you will be rejected. This doesn't make you a bad player, it just means either you didn't put in enough effort for the guild you were applying to or you don't mesh well with the other members. I have and still do occasionally zerg when I actually want to be lazy, but it's my guilty pleasure/means of making sure I have enough transmutation stones.

As for the homework thing: lol, I guess I'll assign less so my students can play ESO.

And now you need to listen closely:

Playing the game the way it is meant to be played is not stated anywere. Ballgroups are only putting energy in building the group to an almost invulnerable state. What is the idea behind this? Why would players want to play like that? Realise that in player versus player combat, group surporting skills/sets are per definition redundant.
Why do AOE heals even excist? Should it not go to the targeted player only? It is a structural error.

Playing like a ballgroup puts stress (lets call it lag) to the game not only by spaming overlays, but also by atracting other players. You like to call them zergs and do act as if they cause lag to you. It is the downside of being almost invulnerable. You will always end in a huge brawl. For you that feels like running on hot coals. Playing the campaign gets to the background, as more players are putting more effort in group build. Only that will result in less performance and not fullfilling game objectives.

My recommendation don't make ballgroups.

[edited to remove quote]

TheMightyRevan

Tigor wrote: »

tamanosou wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

[snip]

[snip] We're friends in-game and I'm a ball group player. So I dunno why he'd stay friends with ballers if he actually has a problem with our play style. I stay friends with him because I honestly love his forum posts. And zonechats.

Once again, ball groups are not the source of the lag. We're generally playing the game the way it's meant to be played. There wouldn't be tactical environmental features if the designers didn't want this form of play. And you will find if you've ever played in a proper ball group that the most lag is had when encountering zergs. More players more problems. I really enjoy running over a zerg time and time again, but I don't think any ballgroup would mind if the zergers just disappeared. Playing against other ballgroups or semi-organized non-pug groups is actually challenging which is what appeals to ballers. It's less fun to play against small scalers for pretty obvious reasons but small scalers put thought and time into their builds whereas pick up groups and zergers just don't. So I respect the small scalers whereas I'm afraid I just don't have the same approach to zergers.

But this brings me to the final point here. [snip] I note this has already been addressed but we do put a lot of effort into theory crafting, unit cohesion etc. and we actually do practice. You have to audition to be a member of any decent ballgroup and as with any decent PVE group there's a pretty high chance you will be rejected. This doesn't make you a bad player, it just means either you didn't put in enough effort for the guild you were applying to or you don't mesh well with the other members. I have and still do occasionally zerg when I actually want to be lazy, but it's my guilty pleasure/means of making sure I have enough transmutation stones.

As for the homework thing: lol, I guess I'll assign less so my students can play ESO.

And now you need to listen closely:

Playing the game the way it is meant to be played is not stated anywere. Ballgroups are only putting energy in building the group to an almost invulnerable state. What is the idea behind this? Why would players want to play like that? Realise that in player versus player combat, group surporting skills/sets are per definition redundant.
Why do AOE heals even excist? Should it not go to the targeted player only? It is a structural error.

Playing like a ballgroup puts stress (lets call it lag) to the game not only by spaming overlays, but also by atracting other players. You like to call them zergs and do act as if they cause lag to you. It is the downside of being almost invulnerable. You will always end in a huge brawl. For you that feels like running on hot coals. Playing the campaign gets to the background, as more players are putting more effort in group build. Only that will result in less performance and not fullfilling game objectives.

My recommendation don't make ballgroups.

do you actually not understand why ppl in general try to get better at what theyre doing and try to optimise their situation. eehm sorry thats called life and being a human being.

[edited to remove quote]

Marcus_Aurelius

.

tamanosou wrote: »

Once again, ball groups are not the source of the lag. We're generally playing the game the way it's meant to be played. T.

Every ballgrouper will say this but you all know that you are exploiting broken game mechanics.
The fact someone can stand in an oil shower while being hit by several coldfire ballista and just ignore all the damege is proof enough that the game is broken in several way.

Tigor

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

tamanosou wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

[snip]

[snip] We're friends in-game and I'm a ball group player. So I dunno why he'd stay friends with ballers if he actually has a problem with our play style. I stay friends with him because I honestly love his forum posts. And zonechats.

Once again, ball groups are not the source of the lag. We're generally playing the game the way it's meant to be played. There wouldn't be tactical environmental features if the designers didn't want this form of play. And you will find if you've ever played in a proper ball group that the most lag is had when encountering zergs. More players more problems. I really enjoy running over a zerg time and time again, but I don't think any ballgroup would mind if the zergers just disappeared. Playing against other ballgroups or semi-organized non-pug groups is actually challenging which is what appeals to ballers. It's less fun to play against small scalers for pretty obvious reasons but small scalers put thought and time into their builds whereas pick up groups and zergers just don't. So I respect the small scalers whereas I'm afraid I just don't have the same approach to zergers.

But this brings me to the final point here. [snip] I note this has already been addressed but we do put a lot of effort into theory crafting, unit cohesion etc. and we actually do practice. You have to audition to be a member of any decent ballgroup and as with any decent PVE group there's a pretty high chance you will be rejected. This doesn't make you a bad player, it just means either you didn't put in enough effort for the guild you were applying to or you don't mesh well with the other members. I have and still do occasionally zerg when I actually want to be lazy, but it's my guilty pleasure/means of making sure I have enough transmutation stones.

As for the homework thing: lol, I guess I'll assign less so my students can play ESO.

And now you need to listen closely:

Playing the game the way it is meant to be played is not stated anywere. Ballgroups are only putting energy in building the group to an almost invulnerable state. What is the idea behind this? Why would players want to play like that? Realise that in player versus player combat, group surporting skills/sets are per definition redundant.
Why do AOE heals even excist? Should it not go to the targeted player only? It is a structural error.

Playing like a ballgroup puts stress (lets call it lag) to the game not only by spaming overlays, but also by atracting other players. You like to call them zergs and do act as if they cause lag to you. It is the downside of being almost invulnerable. You will always end in a huge brawl. For you that feels like running on hot coals. Playing the campaign gets to the background, as more players are putting more effort in group build. Only that will result in less performance and not fullfilling game objectives.

My recommendation don't make ballgroups.

do you actually not understand why ppl in general try to get better at what theyre doing and try to optimise their situation. eehm sorry thats called life and being a human being.

That is exactly what my posts are all about.
The continues farming is not showing any learning curve and is classified as a mala fide action.

[edited to remove quote]

tamanosou

Marcus_Aurelius wrote: »

.

tamanosou wrote: »

Once again, ball groups are not the source of the lag. We're generally playing the game the way it's meant to be played. T.

Every ballgrouper will say this but you all know that you are exploiting broken game mechanics.
The fact someone can stand in an oil shower while being hit by several coldfire ballista and just ignore all the damege is proof enough that the game is broken in several way.

Firstly, as I usually play a healer I want to thank you for your observation of my efficacy. I will also inform our purgers that they are both kicking @ss and also taking names. We're not exploiting, we're just optimized. This is how the game is meant to work. I won't say it's a pleasure to stand under oils and tank through coldfire, but it is possible based on our choice of group build, optimization, and teamwork.

Secondly, I need a guy calling himself Marcus Aurelius to rejoice in his opportunity to be slain by an excellent ballgroup per the attitude of his namesake. Get down with your stoic philosopher-emperorship.

Thraben

The reds need to overcome their internal rivalries and re-create a working coordination guild to counter the massive blue zerg.

I feel like with clearer tasks among your groups and players you should have won yesterday in Ales.

For the first time in 6 years, the pact has better players on average than DC, but you are just too unorganised to make use of it.

Marcus_Aurelius

tamanosou wrote: »

Secondly, I need a guy calling himself Marcus Aurelius to rejoice in his opportunity to be slain by an excellent ballgroup per the attitude of his namesake. Get down with your stoic philosopher-emperorship.

Sorry but I don't fight ball groups, too many boring things already IRL, in a game I want to have fun.

DTStormfox

Let's not derail the discussion by throwing ad hominems and other logical fallacies at one another.

The dilemma is that in order to kill a faction stack (zerg), you need a ball group. However, to kill a ball group, you need a critical mass - which often presents itself in the form of a faction stack (zerg).

If ball groups don't exist, who are going to kill the faction stacks? But at the same time, who is going to kill the ball group if the faction stack doesn't exist?

In my view, it is a game design issue concerning multiple points.

1. AOE circles are too large (both damage and healing)
2. The 'free' damage, 'free' heal and 'free' support toolkit is too large
3. Purging/cleansing is too effective in negating damage and debuffs
4. Viscious death and proximity detonation

I believe a short elaboration is necessary. First, I believe that AOE circles are simply too large. It is too easy to overlap damage over a large area. We can find evidence of that when we look at the most used damage abilities: Steel Tornado, Sap Essence, Proximity Detonation, and Eye of the Storm. They are all large circles of damage. The same goes for AOE heals. The circles of the effect of Healing Springs and Echoing Vigor are huge. Reducing them in size will require both damage dealers and healers to be more thoughtful of their AOE placements. In my view, the large AOE sizes cause a form of brainless spamming of AOEs. Also if the AOE is part of a rotation (which some call 'skill'), the largest (in radius) AOE is always favoured over smaller AOE because it is not the absolute damage but the relative damage over an area that matters most for both ball groups and zergs.

Second, there are simply too many ways to get free damage, free healing or free support from proc sets and some abilities. Why do some classes get free-to-cast abilities? Why do Wardens have the Betty Netch as a free-to-cast source of resource return and negative effect removal, while Templars have to spend Magicka to cleanse and Sorcerers have to trade one resource for the other? Why do Necromancers have three (3!!!!) free-to-cast abilities that both restore resources, provide a buff AND have a special effect for the tethers? I know that they have to consume a corpse to cast them, but they can easily create their own corpses at a relatively low cost when you consider that the abilities that create corpses also give the Necromancer additional bonuses and damage/heals.

In terms of damage, healing and support from proc sets. I do not necessarily oppose proc sets but I do think that the number of damage, healing, and support proc sets is too large. Too many of these proc sets can stack with other proc sets and/or with class/weapon/etc. abilities. Sometimes this creates the possibility to have very high damage while at the same time being almost unkillable (i.e. tanky).

Third, in my opinion, purging/cleansing is too effective in negating damage and debuffs. Currently, purge abilities and cleanse abilities (including synergies) remove all negative effects, including damage over time. I think it would be a great improvement if purge only removed debuffs such as major/minor vulnerability, major/minor fracture, etc. and cleanses (such as provided by Cleansing Ritual, Templar) should only remove damage over time. In other words, split the negative effect removal into two categories: purge - which only removes debuffs but not damage over time; and cleanse - which only removes damage over time but not debuffs.

Vicious Death set, which provides you with a free (and large) AOE damage burst when you kill a player. Vicious Death punishes stacking but at the same time, it rewards stacking. It punishes players for stacking too close to one another because when one dies, everybody takes damage. But, at the same time, it rewards players for stacking damage in one area because it creates a death zone in which players die instantly causing Vicious Death to proc. The same goes for Proximity Detonation. It punishes players for stacking into one location but at the same time, stacking Proximity Detonation itself is rewarding. I think that sets and abilities like this should simply be removed from the game.

Marcus_Aurelius

DTStormfox wrote: »

. However, to kill a ball group, you need a critical mass - which often presents itself in the form of a faction stack (zerg).

This is the root of all that is boring in Rawenwatch.
To kill a ball group you just need to ignore them, they live only to get easy kills and easy APs, ignore them and they will dissolve because they are unable of any other form of gameplay.

Plenty of keeps to attack while they are doing their usual boring stuff inside a keep, go elsewhere, attack something else and they will dissolve in thin air.

LarsS

If Raven turns non-proc as ZOS have said, things will change to some extent.