Thank you for ruining pvp fun with proc sets, to the benefit of ball groups

DTStormfox

In my opinion, PvP fun has been completely ruined by facilitating ball groups with unlimited resource sustain, complete immunity to all snares and roots, and giving them a huge LAG advantage.

Proc sets need to be removed from PvP. PERIOD. Proc sets give highly organized ball groups a HUGE advantage over casual players.

1. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to have unlimited resource sustain, without having to sacrifice Max stats or Damage stats.
2. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to time proc sets to proc all at the same time. Causing major damage spikes that casual players cannot achieve and not recover (heal) from.
3. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to buff their teammates, as a consequence other ball group teammates do not have to experience diminishing returns for wearing only proc sets.
4. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to overheal their teammates (often for free), as a consequence making them literally IMMUNE TO DAMAGE, especially damage over time abilities. Also because they are overhealing all the time, it renders all proc sets that are designed against groups (such as Vicious Death) completely useless. Instead, these ball groups benefit from the fact that they can cause major peaks in damage and utilize Vicious Death against casual players.
5. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to cleanse their teammates (often for free), same consequence as point 4.
6. Proc sets allow highly organized ball groups to ignore stuns, roots, snares, and silence. As a consequence, it is impossible to fix ball groups in a point and negating them is literally useless.

I will probably get a lot of negative backlash from this. Well, I don't care. Proc sets ruin the fun for all casual players (which is the majority of PvP players) and only these highly organized ball groups of 12 players "enjoy" this meta. In other words, the majority of players have seen the fun diminish while only a small group of players have more fun now because they can infinitely farm casual players and enjoy (almost) complete immunity to any counter action.

L_Nici

No you won't get backlash. You just speak the truth and literally everyone knows it, which is exactly why Ballgroups are still a thing.

Crispen_Longbow

DTStormfox wrote: »

highly organized ball groups have a HUGE advantage over casual players.

L_Nici wrote: »

You just speak the truth and literally everyone knows it

Fixed your quotes for you guys.

Yep, highly organized groups have advantages over casual players. It doesn't matter what zos does that will always be the case.

Now to the proc sets argument. It only takes a couple of bombers, specked with the right proc sets, to take down any group. THERE ISN'T A SINGLE GROUP that can't be taken down by a few well placed bombers. If you are sick of being farmed by ball groups. Stop being casuals and build a few bomber builds. Some groups take more bombers then others but all of them can be taken down.

VaranisArano

You'll get your no-proc campaign with Q3, last ZOS said. In the meantime, you can deal with having proc sets for a bit, just like proc-set fans had to deal with not getting to use their sets for a bit.

Joy_Division

Everything you describe has been around with organized groups long before ZOS turned PvP into a proc set fest.

Tigor

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

DTStormfox wrote: »

highly organized ball groups have a HUGE advantage over casual players.

L_Nici wrote: »

You just speak the truth and literally everyone knows it

Fixed your quotes for you guys.

Yep, highly organized groups have advantages over casual players. It doesn't matter what zos does that will always be the case.

Now to the proc sets argument. It only takes a couple of bombers, specked with the right proc sets, to take down any group. THERE ISN'T A SINGLE GROUP that can't be taken down by a few well placed bombers. If you are sick of being farmed by ball groups. Stop being casuals and build a few bomber builds. Some groups take more bombers then others but all of them can be taken down.

Bomber groups? 😔💣💣💣🧨🧨 Bombers are also squishy when detected.

KashyyyK240

Are you new to the game? This was literally in the game since the introduction of the first proc sets. People realized that group gameplay>solo/smallscale gameplay and it totally makes sense that you only see groups destroying everyone.

There was a no-proc period during these last 3 months and guess what happened? People played solo and small scale? NO!
The faction stacking was harder than ever. Everyone and their mother was running along the 40-man zerg going from keep to keep and enjoying all that juicy "large scale pvp" that wasn't present with procs enabled. Why?
Well mostly because of the lack of bombers and everyone being weaker, but both of these lead back to group gameplay>solo/smallscale gameplay.

So I don't think ZOS ruined anything by enabling procs again. (at least nothing that wasn't already ruined for years until now)
You should just gather a few friends and synergize your builds or start a pug and avoid ballgroups...

Amottica

I have only been around for a few months but I keep seeing threads talking about proc sets and ball groups as they are the blame for seemingly everything.

Why is this the case?

JayKwellen

All of these things still existed in no-proc. I know, because I would sometimes play in those evil ball groups and we could still manage to do pretty much everything you're lamenting here. Procs may accentuate the "issue", but they're not the cause.

VaranisArano

Amottica wrote: »

I have only been around for a few months but I keep seeing threads talking about proc sets and ball groups as they are the blame for seemingly everything.

Why is this the case?

That's a long and complicated answer.

Cyrodiil was designed for large scale combat between groups of 8 to 24 players, and so when you take PVP guilds who work and move together using voice comms and who build as a unit, those organized raids are extremely powerful and able to defeat much more than their numbers in less organized powers.

The superior organization and cooperation of those PVP guilds allows them to use proc sets that less organized or smaller groups can't use effectively. Consider that some proc sets required group mates to be within a certain radius. PUGs rarely stick that close together, while small scale fighters prefer to be able to fight as individuals. It's really only the organized guilds who systematically build for specialized roles and wear sets that buff, heal, and output extra damage as a group and combine that with focused fire, constant cross healing, and ulti dumps. That makes them very hard to kill and dangerous in a farming situation.

Now, in the past before all the Cyrodiil testing, ZOS called out the organized guilds for creating a situation where groups where able to have infinite sustain and healing, and thus were able to spam AOEs in a way ZOS said the server struggles with. Anecdotally, this is supported by the impressions of some players. So there was a logical reason for the criticisms.

The problem with that is that since then ZOS has tested a number of factors to try to prevent guilds from being able to do that, including AOE cooldowns, no cross-healing, and no proc sets,, and did not find any factor that substantially increased performance. They did drop the group size to 12, but at that time, they said it wasn't going to improve Cyrodiil performance. The result is that ZOS killed a lot of the larger PUG guilds, while many ball group style PVP guilds who already ran about 12 people carried on unscathed.


So where we're at is that:
A. Some players don't like ball groups and feel they are to blame for the bad performance (which ZOS has never proven nor properly addressed if they are) or feel ball groups create very un-fun gameplay (to each their own).

B. Some players really hate proc sets, mostly for competitive reasons, or because they feel like ball groups use proc sets more efficiently than anyone else (which they do, but only because ball groups use almost everything more efficiently than any smaller or less organized group.)

ResidentContrarian

Don't worry, most ball groups aren't any good anyway.

There's only 3 in PC NA and 3 in PC EU worth anything, and proc sets are not exactly where their power comes from.

If you had played in no-proc you would have noticed for those 3 ball groups on PC NA and PC EU that their performance was and is literally identical to when procs were on or not, or testing.

It's ultimately down to how skilled a ball group's dedicated healers are, independent of the leader, and how skilled a ball group's other members are when it is time to make independent decisions.

If a ball group has players skilled in healing, like one healer that can solo support a battle with PUGs v. an entire faction stack, you aren't going to be able to nerf that ball group without nerfing PUGs and solos first no matter what.

Even nerfing purge spam won't do it for certain ball groups, and if you play on PC NA or EU you will already know which ones I mean.

Tigor

It is clear that the ball groups need a nerf, so they can start to play pvp. The observed faction stacking is just resulting from reduced group size, and the feeling to be more safe from ball groups.

vesselwiththepestle

Casuals can use proc sets, too. Curse Eater is great for Casuals! Also there are organized groups which are not ball groups and which like to use proc sets, too. I run with a weekly group of which half of them are more of a pve background and all of them prefer a casual pvp style. And guess what we do? Run proc sets.

Casuals need to learn basic strategies against ball group. You might want to have a look at this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/557515/ball-breaker-groups-heh/p1

Also if a casual players copies some pvp build, they should learn to not copy some dueling or smallscale build, but a group-oriented build. Usually even in a social or pve guild you can find someone with a bit of pvp experience who can give advice on some sets to wear. Just make it clear you need it to run in PUGs and not for dueling/smallscaling. For example, in a PUG or when Zerg Surfing you probably don't want to wear 7 light well-fitted just because some MagSorc god gets away with it when 1vXing randoms...

However, I guess it's defining the Casual to not want to improve, but to call for nerfs.

xylena_lazarow

Crispen_Longbow wrote: »

Stop being casuals

Yea, stop being casual in the casual Skyrim mmo!

xylena_lazarow

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

If a ball group has players skilled in healing, like one healer that can solo support a battle with PUGs v. an entire faction stack, you aren't going to be able to nerf that ball group without nerfing PUGs and solos first no matter what.

Organized groups with a proper comp benefit from stacking cross healing exponentially more than pugs. There is a serious floor/ceiling issue here. Personally, I noticed zero difference in zerg surfing from when pug cross healing was disabled to when it came back.

DTStormfox

Stop being casuals is (and I hate the term because it implies that casuals are victims [which is not my intention]) victim-blaming.

My point also doesn't concern performance per se. Yes, ZOS did some tests with no-proc sets and different types of healing methods but those tests were aimed at testing the impact on performance. My point is that with proc sets enabled is less fun to play. Hence, it is more a point of competitiveness (which some already pointed towards). In my opinion, proc sets are mostly to the benefit of groups, especially when they are highly coordinated with specialized roles etc. Which, in my opinion, gives them an advantage that no casual player or casual group can ever match. As such, the point is: the distance between highly organized ball groups and casual groups is too large.

In my experience, the distance between ball groups and casual groups was much closer when the proc sets were disabled. Ball groups were still a pain in the *** to fight but at least casual groups had a chance. Currently, with proc sets enabled, there seems no point in trying to fight ball groups because they are immune to almost every (if not all) counter-play.

Tiphis

They've been buffed almost every patch, clearly they aren't going anywhere but up. Either be in a ball group, only run classes/builds that counter them, or probably the best option play almost any other game with better pvp balance.

Tiphis

Tigor wrote: »

It is clear that the ball groups need a nerf, so they can start to play pvp. The observed faction stacking is just resulting from reduced group size, and the feeling to be more safe from ball groups.

Well its also one of the best and easiest ways to counter ball groups. Should we split up the faction and try to take back keeps? But then we'd get run over by the ball groups taking whatever they want.

Kordai

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

Don't worry, most ball groups aren't any good anyway.

There's only 3 in PC NA and 3 in PC EU worth anything, and proc sets are not exactly where their power comes from.

If you had played in no-proc you would have noticed for those 3 ball groups on PC NA and PC EU that their performance was and is literally identical to when procs were on or not, or testing.

It's ultimately down to how skilled a ball group's dedicated healers are, independent of the leader, and how skilled a ball group's other members are when it is time to make independent decisions.

If a ball group has players skilled in healing, like one healer that can solo support a battle with PUGs v. an entire faction stack, you aren't going to be able to nerf that ball group without nerfing PUGs and solos first no matter what.

Even nerfing purge spam won't do it for certain ball groups, and if you play on PC NA or EU you will already know which ones I mean.

Eh the floor on being a semi-decent ball group is pretty low. I used to be in ball group that wasn't very good, people coordinated sets, builds and comps but didn't have much by the way of skill. When I first joined I was always amazed by the fact that we were able to take out quite good small scalers and pug groups with ease, even if many of us were faaaaaar below them in skill.

Now being a good ball group compared to other ball groups is very different. Being a good ball group still takes some skill and coordination.

neferpitou73

The solution the ball groups is more organized groups. That's it. There's nothing ZOS can change to make it better for pugs because a group will do things more efficiently than a bunch of random players.

Instead of seeing another "nerf ball group" thread I'd like to see a "how can I make a better organized group thread?" I think I'll start one.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Well all you need is your healer support to be sick and ball group = 'oups, I think we should log out group'
I've done some before, it's pretty boring gameplay and most of the time you just lag and get told what to do...so end game...hmm...I still think the real end game was smallscalers at their peak (max of 4-5 people).

Nowadays you can't even play like a smallscaler and enemy players just literally run off if they don't have 5-2-1 advantage.

ZOS isn't killing it as they say...they have killed it for now.

xylena_lazarow

neferpitou73 wrote: »

The solution the ball groups is more organized groups.

They've been trying to "force" all the solos and pugs into organized groups for 7 years, but this isn't a highly competitive team esport, it's a casual Skyrim mmo marketed as "play how you like." And so it goes.

neferpitou73

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

The solution the ball groups is more organized groups.

They've been trying to "force" all the solos and pugs into organized groups for 7 years, but this isn't a highly competitive team esport, it's a casual Skyrim mmo marketed as "play how you like." And so it goes.

And I want to play in a ball group

I'm sorry, I'm just don't understand the endgame to these types of complaints. Let's say you get what you want: ZOS bans ball groups. And then what?

You either get faction stacks running from keep to keep because there's no longer any way to break up the zerg. Or you get a bunch of gank squads that pick off all the small scalers. Neither of which sounds very fun to me.

I just wish people would try to counter things instead of calling for an immediate nerf. I think they do need something about the skill floor for pvp but banning groups is not it; nor is insanely nerfing everything.

xylena_lazarow

neferpitou73 wrote: »

I'm sorry, I'm just don't understand the endgame to these types of complaints.

There are many different complaints and different usages of the term "ball group." The problem I try to express is how stacking cross healing and purge spam benefits organized groups with a comp exponentially more than pugs, allowing even mediocre groups with no chance of actually winning an objective to indefinitely stall fights against pugs, demanding a lag-inducing faction stack to get rid of them.

Sure in theory you can "git gud" and join the sort of group that can land a coordinated bomb on them, so ask yourself, why are players so resistant to do this? And why are the usual solo/pug tools like siege, chain pulls, and AoE ults so ineffective now? DoT siege like Coldfire in particular is trivially countered by a prepared group. That isn't right to me.

DTStormfox

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Instead of seeing another "nerf ball group" thread I'd like to see a "how can I make a better organized group thread?" I think I'll start one.

This isn't a nerf ball group - thread. This is a close the gap between ball groups and casual groups thread by reducing the synergetic power of proc sets - thread. Anyhows, I checked your "how can I make a better organized group thread?" And no surprise, almost all the set items you propose to use are proc sets, and you call them "less important to than people make them out to be (although they are very important..." As such, I think it is safe to assume that you agree with me: proc sets carry ball groups too much.

(Edit typos)

YandereGirlfriend

Tigor wrote: »

It is clear that the ball groups need a nerf, so they can start to play pvp. The observed faction stacking is just resulting from reduced group size, and the feeling to be more safe from ball groups.

A faction-stack is the default state of casual players when they enter Cyrodiil. Why? Because it's in their nature.

Run around as a solo casual and you're bound to get ganked. Run around in a small casual group and you can't accomplish anything because other small groups or even NPCs will wipe you.

Casuals are, by definition, less skilled in PvP than hardcore players. Due to this fact, they require overwhelming numbers to accomplish tasks when pitted against more skilled players. And, check it out, there's nothing actually wrong with that.

If I rounded up four random friends to play 5v1 against Kawhi Leonard in basketball, he would still completely destroy us because he is incalculably better at the game than we are, even greatly outnumbered. So what should our response to that loss be? Come up with ways to rig the rules against Kawhi so that we could continue to be mediocre but still possibly win? Or maybe we should try practicing more and improving our own teamwork. The latter is obviously the better idea... for a multitude of reasons.

Also remember that faction-stacks punch down just as frequently as they are punched down upon and they are not at all honorable or virtuous or victims. A 40-player faction-stack absolutely WILL run down and tea-bag an enemy solo PvE'er simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. How quickly a faction-stacking player forgets what it's like to be dog-piled upon once they get a taste of power.

So no, players should seek to elevate themselves rather than tearing others down. The best groups will always be the best groups no matter what the rules are.

Joy_Division

DTStormfox wrote: »

Stop being casuals is (and I hate the term because it implies that casuals are victims [which is not my intention]) victim-blaming.

My point also doesn't concern performance per se. Yes, ZOS did some tests with no-proc sets and different types of healing methods but those tests were aimed at testing the impact on performance. My point is that with proc sets enabled is less fun to play. Hence, it is more a point of competitiveness (which some already pointed towards). In my opinion, proc sets are mostly to the benefit of groups, especially when they are highly coordinated with specialized roles etc. Which, in my opinion, gives them an advantage that no casual player or casual group can ever match. As such, the point is: the distance between highly organized ball groups and casual groups is too large.

In my experience, the distance between ball groups and casual groups was much closer when the proc sets were disabled. Ball groups were still a pain in the *** to fight but at least casual groups had a chance. Currently, with proc sets enabled, there seems no point in trying to fight ball groups because they are immune to almost every (if not all) counter-play.

It's the nature of the beast. Anything that grants players power, whether it's gear or abilities or CP, is going to favor organized groups because that's the whole point of organization: to optimize things, remove redundancies, cover weaknesses, etc.
So yes, organized groups do benefit more with proc (or any) sets, though I think you severely underestimate how much power a good theorycrafter can squeeze out of the sets available in the game. In truth it's not just the organized ball groups, but those experienced players who can optimize and min-max builds that benefit the most.

So what's the alternative? Go back to being allowed to wear 19 sets and thereby deleting the sets, gear, mats, time, money, etc., that we invested in acquiring everything else and trivializing theorycrafting to ensure casual groups can compete better? No thanks. The reason for the competitive disparity is not that these casual groups are playing at a mechanical disadvantage, it's that they are just that, casual. I thus see no need for ZOS to hold their hands any more than the previous dozen of so (failed) attempts to raise the so-called floor / lower the proverbial ceiling. If a casual player or groups wishes to be more competitive, it's on them and it's perfectly possible for them to attain that goal by just getting better.

Tigor

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

It is clear that the ball groups need a nerf, so they can start to play pvp. The observed faction stacking is just resulting from reduced group size, and the feeling to be more safe from ball groups.

A faction-stack is the default state of casual players when they enter Cyrodiil. Why? Because it's in their nature.

Run around as a solo casual and you're bound to get ganked. Run around in a small casual group and you can't accomplish anything because other small groups or even NPCs will wipe you.

Casuals are, by definition, less skilled in PvP than hardcore players. Due to this fact, they require overwhelming numbers to accomplish tasks when pitted against more skilled players. And, check it out, there's nothing actually wrong with that.

If I rounded up four random friends to play 5v1 against Kawhi Leonard in basketball, he would still completely destroy us because he is incalculably better at the game than we are, even greatly outnumbered. So what should our response to that loss be? Come up with ways to rig the rules against Kawhi so that we could continue to be mediocre but still possibly win? Or maybe we should try practicing more and improving our own teamwork. The latter is obviously the better idea... for a multitude of reasons.

Also remember that faction-stacks punch down just as frequently as they are punched down upon and they are not at all honorable or virtuous or victims. A 40-player faction-stack absolutely WILL run down and tea-bag an enemy solo PvE'er simply for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. How quickly a faction-stacking player forgets what it's like to be dog-piled upon once they get a taste of power.

So no, players should seek to elevate themselves rather than tearing others down. The best groups will always be the best groups no matter what the rules are.

You give a clear explanation with examples, between "casual" players and "hardcore" players, and the correlation to stacking. But also remember that on the forehand it is not known what players will come to a fight, skillfull or not.

The nuance of my previous post lays in the words "observed faction stacking" and the resulting "behaviour of ball groups".
The group size reduction from 24 to 12 players excluded players, and as the number of leaders stayed constant, the ungrouped players found eachother in a larger faction stack. The playstyle of ball groups stayed unaffected, the optimal group size for ball groups has always been 12, and they kept farming unrelentless. They did not change their behaviour, with reactivating proc sets everything became even more clear.

If players want to improve their skills then they have to deal with the experiences they get, and when they discover the challenges they set are unreachable, then it now almost looks as if they are forced to join ballgroups. I believe ZOS has other intentions for us. Something with good pvp fun.

relentless_turnip

Why can't we just stop heals of the same type stacking and put a ramping cost on purge?

Ballgroups would die pretty fast without these things.

ResidentContrarian

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

ResidentContrarian wrote: »

If a ball group has players skilled in healing, like one healer that can solo support a battle with PUGs v. an entire faction stack, you aren't going to be able to nerf that ball group without nerfing PUGs and solos first no matter what.

Organized groups with a proper comp benefit from stacking cross healing exponentially more than pugs. There is a serious floor/ceiling issue here. Personally, I noticed zero difference in zerg surfing from when pug cross healing was disabled to when it came back.

Well EP has a lack of healers...wait, ever faction does on NA

HanStolo

Their biggest weapon is they cause everyone's performance around them to be unplayable while they do whatever they want.