Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

A_Silverius · February 2019

Arato wrote: »

I say question bomb them next ESO live, to the point that it disrupts anyone asking any other questions because you know they'll ignore it if it's just a few people posting a question or two once or twice.

All over Tamriel, theres a sudden spike in Bosmers getting caught for their crimes. A sad day indeed... #FightForYourRite join the Bosmer rebellion in the next ESO Live and voice your concerns!

A_Silverius · February 2019

Feel free to use my slogan in your signature. Just remember to hyperlink this in the hashtag https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer#The_Rite_of_Theft

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Sorry but you kind of provoked it. What you said before was crazy speak. What you said now, your clarification, makes more sense, but is still turning the thief into a guard, because that is exactly what a guard is doing. Are Bosmer known to steal from thieves only? Heck, detection doesn't even help in the act! It helps prevent it. That's not a nod to them being thieves in the lore.

Provoked it? Thats right, you're not responsible for yourself.

I unpacked the concept and you painted it with a silly simple veneer of childish cops and robbers. That's not the idea at all. Its 2 sides of the same coin. Its a lore friendly nod to their skill while giving it a practical difference. If all you are about is stealthing around in pve then the many sets will do you well enough. You lose nothing but bag space and unless you are carrying around a dozen or more complete changes for each character, you should be fine.

Let me break this down in a real world example, which I know is problematic, but for the sake of comprehension indulge me. During combat maneuvers, in my youth, we'd stay out of sight while seeking. We were avoiding detection while detecting. This is why I see it as a stat reflective of the same prowess. You have to know concealment very well to stay concealed and seek the concealed.

The rest of you, the vitriol is real for someone merely making a point in favor of the changes. Shouting down the opposition isn't constructive.

anadandy · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Let me break this down in a real world example, which I know is problematic, but for the sake of comprehension indulge me. During combat maneuvers, in my youth, we'd stay out of sight while seeking. We were avoiding detection while detecting. This is why I see it as a stat reflective of the same prowess. You have to know concealment very well to stay concealed and seek the concealed.

The problem with your example is that yes, seeking while sneaking in real world combat is useful.

In game however, stealth detection in PVE is useless because NPCs don't stealth. What I, and many on this thread and others, are frustrated by is that we had a useful passive that benefitted our style of gameplay removed for one that is without utility and benefits no playstyle outside of PVP.

We still have not had any response to that, which is why we keep trying.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Sorry but you kind of provoked it. What you said before was crazy speak. What you said now, your clarification, makes more sense, but is still turning the thief into a guard, because that is exactly what a guard is doing. Are Bosmer known to steal from thieves only? Heck, detection doesn't even help in the act! It helps prevent it. That's not a nod to them being thieves in the lore.

Provoked it? Thats right, you're not responsible for yourself.

I unpacked the concept and you painted it with a silly simple veneer of childish cops and robbers. That's not the idea at all. Its 2 sides of the same coin. Its a lore friendly nod to their skill while giving it a practical difference. If all you are about is stealthing around in pve then the many sets will do you well enough. You lose nothing but bag space and unless you are carrying around a dozen or more complete changes for each character, you should be fine.

Let me break this down in a real world example, which I know is problematic, but for the sake of comprehension indulge me. During combat maneuvers, in my youth, we'd stay out of sight while seeking. We were avoiding detection while detecting. This is why I see it as a stat reflective of the same prowess. You have to know concealment very well to stay concealed and seek the concealed.

The rest of you, the vitriol is real for someone merely making a point in favor of the changes. Shouting down the opposition isn't constructive.

Oh! Constructive debate!! That’s what you wanted? But then you posted with comments like;

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

good for you, but that's not how a lot of us play our bosmer, and for us, lacking that extra stealth is making our bosmers LESS fun.

my bosmer has bag space problems already. being essentially forced into carrying extra sets just to regain what she used to have as baseline? is VEXING.

Thats not how a lot of people "you know" play.

fixed.

This was constructive to you? Is this considered a friendly response to you?

Get over yourself. You never wanted a debate with snide comments like this. You just wanted to get some jabs in.

Before the update I could do CR +3 (norm) and sneak past mobs better then anyone save a kahjit. Now I can probably still do CR+3 (we hear there is a trial loot bug at the moment so we are waiting a week) and now Imperials stealth better then I can.

So no, I am not just going to let it go

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

Oh! Constructive debate!! That’s what you wanted? But then you posted with comments like;

This was constructive to you? Is this considered a friendly response to you?

Get over yourself. You never wanted a debate with snide comments like this. You just wanted to get some jabs in.

Before the update I could do CR +3 (norm) and sneak past mobs better then anyone save a kahjit. Now I can probably still do CR+3 (we here there is a trial loot bug at the moment so we are waiting a week) and now Imperials stealth better then I can.

So no, I am not just going to let it go

You must be very fragile. Pointing out that one subsection of people is a perception rather than a reality is constructive, it wasn't snide. Interdicting hyperbole is permitted and required to have rational conversations. Seriously are you okay?

Throughout the conversation I have put forth my thoughts and agreed with those I may disagree with. That is a constructive conversation.

I further explained my reasoning and you went off the deep end again. Calm down, drink a tea, have a donut...something.

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

anadandy wrote: »

The problem with your example is that yes, seeking while sneaking in real world combat is useful.

In game however, stealth detection in PVE is useless because NPCs don't stealth. What I, and many on this thread and others, are frustrated by is that we had a useful passive that benefitted our style of gameplay removed for one that is without utility and benefits no playstyle outside of PVP.

We still have not had any response to that, which is why we keep trying.

I can understand that. It does in the black and white of the pve thief game, change things. In my perception its not lost, but changed. You gain a new ability while retaining the old via different means, the set bonuses, while not really losing much. I've always kept those sets on hand in my bank anyway for non bosmer/khat characters who need to do some clandestine activities.

A_Silverius · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

In my perception its not lost, but changed. You gain a new ability while retaining the old via different means, the set bonuses, while not really losing much. I've always kept those sets on hand in my bank anyway for non bosmer/khat characters who need to do some clandestine activities.

We get it, but we prefer reduced stealth radius as a racial passive.

anadandy · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

In my perception its not lost, but changed. You gain a new ability while retaining the old via different means, the set bonuses, while not really losing much. I've always kept those sets on hand in my bank anyway for non bosmer/khat characters who need to do some clandestine activities.

The question (for me) remains - why are we losing anything at all? Why are Bosmer the only race being required to lose something, even something as insignificant as bag space, for nothing? If Bosmer had to lose their stealth radius for some future greater good, why was a useless in PVE and only marginally useful in PVP skill the solution?

Those are the questions ZOS needs to answer, imo.

teladoy · February 2019

I think i would be more happy if they would give less stamina regen and give some spell/ weapon damage or flat spell/weapon penetration instead of 6 seconds after rolling.

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

A_Silverius wrote: »

We get it, but we prefer reduced stealth radius as a racial passive.

I certainly wouldn't reject getting it back as long as they didn't take away the new.

anadandy wrote: »

Why are Bosmer the only race being required to lose something, even something as insignificant as bag space, for nothing?

Those are the questions ZOS needs to answer, imo.

They weren't the ONLY race to lose something there have been many complaints. I do think it is all part of a bigger picture and not some naive or sadistic developer picking on the Bosmer

They may answer eventually with a simple "trust us". Would that be good enough?

EDIT: IF it is a sadistic or naive developer, I'll grab the torches, you get the pitchforks.

BlueViolet · February 2019

I understand that some people like the new passive, particularly if they PvP, and it suits their gameplay, that's fine. I just don't see why myself and other people who play like me, had to lose something that contributed to our gameplay because of it. Something that we built our characters around.

My main was created in Oblivion, and she stealthed her way through the game, expansions, through Skyrim and into ESO. For the past 5 years in eso she's been quite happily robbing and assassinating Tamriel's population, without having to worry too much about being caught. To have that ease gone is rather upsetting when you've put so much work into your character and their achievements.

Breton's get a bonus to light armour skill line, plus a 1% bonus to AP. I don't know why Bosmer's couldn't have kept their stealth passive, and had a little something that was PvP oriented as well.
There are plenty of ways to increase detection, rather than stripping away something that is essentially part of the Bosmer, to replace it with something you can get from potions or other skills quite easily.

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

teladoy wrote: »

I think i would be more happy if they would give less stamina regen and give some spell/ weapon damage or flat spell/weapon penetration instead of 6 seconds after rolling.

It would be easier that way, but then they'd just be like everyone else. The dodge rolling thing is really interesting to me. The last couple days I've seen an uptick or return of more Eternal Hunt in PvP.

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

BlueViolet wrote: »

There are plenty of ways to increase detection, rather than stripping away something that is essentially part of the Bosmer, to replace it with something you can get from potions or other skills quite easily.

True, but the same can be said for avoidance. Its a shakeup of the old, but not one worth tossing out a character you love over.

Also, a lot of Dunmer were built around being a mag dk, now they are what, 3rd?

anadandy · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

They weren't the ONLY race to lose something there have been many complaints. .

Not taking anything away from those other complaints, but Bosmer were the only race to lose something and get nothing in return if we don't PVP. That happened to no other race, anything they lost was replaced with something useful in both aspects of the game, even if it sucked.

As to your other question, the sad state of affairs is that at one point a simple "trust us" might have been ok but when devs do things like change race descriptions on PTS while still requesting feedback and moving feedback clandestinely into the "fiction and rp" category, it makes it difficult to believe.

I'm done.

BlueViolet · February 2019

But that's the point. To me, she's now not really the same character I had any longer. As I said earlier, she's less than what she was, now. I appreciate that some people have neither the imagination or the inclination to "bond ( ? ) " with their character, but I have, especially since she is years old, and I doubt I'm the only one.

As for the avoidance, well, I don't recall anyone ever having to replace their armour setup that works for them, with special pieces just to help detection. It's as simple as drinking a pot. I could be wrong ,and someone will correct me if I am.
I ( and perhaps others ) don't really want to be forced into having our gear setups replaced with gear just to give us back our old passive abilities and have to sacrifice whatever benefits the current armour gives us just to reclaim something that shouldn't have been removed in the first place.
I know its easy to read this and tell me its a personal problem, and perhaps it is, but then I ask folk to think about how they would feel if Zeni just took a piece of the game or their character that really mattered to them and replaced it with something that was utterly useless to them with a vague " oh yes we know you're concerned "mumble unintelligibly about future nothing".

I don't mind shakeups. I think ZoS have made quite a few terrible decisions over the years, and I've certainly complained in the beginnings, but its never something that I haven't been able to adapt to.
This feels different to me however, and they've essentially ripped a piece of solid lore away from my favourite race, something that makes them what they are, and to me, an important chunk of my gameplay to replace it with something that's virtually useless outside of PvP.

I like some of the racial changes, they are not all bad. But some of them, like this one, feel very very thoughtless.

Edit - On the topic of Dunmer and losing the top spot in DPS... I don't find that to be quite the same thing. Perhaps a better example would have been how people may have reacted if Dunmer had been completely stripped of any fire / flame / burning resistances at all. Just gone. And replaced it with the ability to detect nearby fire traps or some such nonsense.
I can't imagine that Dunmer players would have sat back and just said "Well crap, oh well, I'll just adapt."

A_Silverius · February 2019

BlueViolet wrote: »

I like some of the racial changes, they are not all bad. But some of them, like this one, feel very very thoughtless.

You mean like when they said "Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)" and then gave us stealth detection? :^)

Aela_Dragonrider · February 2019

BlueViolet wrote: »

But that's the point. To me, she's now not really the same character I had any longer. As I said earlier, she's less than what she was, now. I appreciate that some people have neither the imagination or the inclination to "bond ( ? ) " with their character, but I have, especially since she is years old, and I doubt I'm the only one.

Exactly. My Bosmer thief can still sneak and steal stuff just fine, but its not the quite the same experience anymore. Where before she could dart through a crowded room, nab a strongbox, and leave without being spotted; she has to remain very much aware of where all the NPCs are, find the right angle to approach, pick the lock really fast before so-and-so walks back (and picking higher locks under stress makes it more difficult), and she'll probably still get detected by someone at some point. Even if the latter doesn't result in a bounty it can be very annoying from an immersion standpoint: 'My skilled Bosmer thief got spotted by some random servant as she/he was hiding behind the wardrobe waiting for the guard to move.)

Bosmer stealth is not as fast-paced and daring as it was before the patch. I'll admit, I chose my Bosmer for her looks, not her stealth but came to love how easily she could sneak about. I won't get rid of or abandon her now, but I feel like thats more because of how well I like her looks then her skills, stealth or otherwise.

And as to gear. Before a Bosmer could wear Night's Silence and Night Mothers for a total of +5m stealth radius AND no movement penalty. Now a Bosmer has several options, none of them as good:

A ) Wear Night's Silence and Night Mothers like before, but now only have +2 stealth radius AND no movement penalty.
B ) Join their lvl 4 vampire brothers and sisters and give up Night's Silence for Night Terror. But that only gives an extra +2 stealth radius (for a total of +4).
C ) Wear Night Mothers and Night Terror for +4 stealth radius, but be still stuck with the movement penalty.

Either way you'll either have 3m less stealth radius, slower movement AND 1m less stealth radius, or 1m less stealth radius and have to live with how vampirism distorts your appearance.

Jaraal · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

I can understand that. It does in the black and white of the pve thief game, change things. In my perception its not lost, but changed. You gain a new ability while retaining the old via different means, the set bonuses, while not really losing much. I've always kept those sets on hand in my bank anyway for non bosmer/khat characters who need to do some clandestine activities.

Are you a ZOS dev? Because I can imagine this is exactly what the person in charge of these absurd changes would say. We shouldn't have to carry extra sets of armor to swap out every time we want to be wood elves..... who would still be out sneaked by an Imperial!

teladoy wrote: »

I think i would be more happy if they would give less stamina regen and give some spell/ weapon damage or flat spell/weapon penetration instead of 6 seconds after rolling.

Of course you would. You're a PvPer. But that does nothing to help the PvEers not get caught stealing, or being able to sneak past enemies..... both human and environmental. Nor does it represent the traditional wood elf values originally established by the authors of the Elder Scrolls.

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

Are you a ZOS dev? Because I can imagine this is exactly what the person in charge of these absurd changes would say. We shouldn't have to carry extra sets of armor to swap out every time we want to be wood elves.....

I'm only on my second cup of coffee so forgive me, but what do you mean by this? Is being a ZOS dev supposed to be insulting or are you claiming I'm an apologist? Just because my view is in contrast to yours is an excuse to try and paint me personally as this or that? Its a difference of opinion and I supported it by my collection of facts.

I understand the other arguments but I don't think I've called you out as something like a whiny little carebear who just cares about the pretty power of his little midget cannibal's stealth ability who also has an inferiority complex when it comes to imperials? It doesn't really further the conversation does it?

wedgebert · February 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

teladoy wrote: »

I think i would be more happy if they would give less stamina regen and give some spell/ weapon damage or flat spell/weapon penetration instead of 6 seconds after rolling.

Of course you would. You're a PvPer. But that does nothing to help the PvEers not get caught stealing, or being able to sneak past enemies..... both human and environmental. Nor does it represent the traditional wood elf values originally established by the authors of the Elder Scrolls.

I think this is the biggest disconnect between the disagreements here are there are two different things being talked about.

1: Bomser lost stealth, the defining racial characteristic of the race and had it replaced with a detection mechanic that is 99.9% useless in all cases
2: Bomser lost the 10% stealth damage and now have a new roll "passive" based off the roll mechanic that adds speed and penetration.

Most of the biggest complaints I've seen relate to the first part (which is where I fall). We went from being a race of naturally good sneak thieves to being pretty much equal to everyone expect Khajiit (who we used to be tied with) and Imperial (who aren't even stealthy, they just get a stealth cost reduction, so they're better at stealth by flipping accident!)

All the devs have to do to appease the majority of the complainers is swap the worthless stealth detection bonus back to old decreased radius it was. That's it. Most of us understand that the +10% damage bonus was a little overpowered and had to go.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for the roll mechanic be replaced with something better thought out and not as stupid, but I can live with its uselessness in PVE and near uselessness in PVP.

Arato · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueViolet wrote: »

There are plenty of ways to increase detection, rather than stripping away something that is essentially part of the Bosmer, to replace it with something you can get from potions or other skills quite easily.

True, but the same can be said for avoidance. Its a shakeup of the old, but not one worth tossing out a character you love over.

Also, a lot of Dunmer were built around being a mag dk, now they are what, 3rd?

No it can't be said the same for avoidance because most people used the stealth improving gear AND the racial benefits on top of each other.

Anhedonie · February 2019

Weren't open letters against the tos?

JayAstrophel · February 2019

Yeah, I carry around a set of gear to remove the movement penalty for sneaking. Very helpful, but a bit annoying to switch around all the time XD Having to carry a ton of extra gear just to get your stealth stuff back doesn't sound great.

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

Arato wrote: »

No it can't be said the same for avoidance because most people used the stealth improving gear AND the racial benefits on top of each other.

After all is calculated doing the math on this we would really be talking about in-game inches.

Eiron77 · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

It would be easier that way, but then they'd just be like everyone else. The dodge rolling thing is really interesting to me. The last couple days I've seen an uptick or return of more Eternal Hunt in PvP.

The dodge rolling thing is very uninteresting to me. Temporary penetration serves no one who is at the cap, and the movement speed was just a copy/paste of an already existing skill in the bow line, that was not that great. I always had better options for speed increases, and honestly barely noticed it when I did use roll dodge.

ZOS really dropped the ball with the wood elves passive HuntersEye. Sure, there's a fringe group of people that actually like it, but tell me they really couldn't have thought of something better? Something more unique than a copy/paste of an already existing ability that anyone else has access to?

But even with all of those complaints, all they had to do was remove the useless stealth detection and give us a bonus to sneak instead, then we'd all mostly be content.

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

Eiron77 wrote: »

The dodge rolling thing is very uninteresting to me. Temporary penetration serves no one who is at the cap, and the movement speed was just a copy/paste of an already existing skill in the bow line, that was not that great.

The most fun I've had with it is in non CP BGs and PvP where I don't run around at pen cap. Just my experience. Earlier I mentioned that I broke Senche's out of the vault so now, in the above, I do a dodgeroll and gain extra pen and ws. Optimal? Probably not. Entertaining for at least me? Yes.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

The dodge rolling thing is very uninteresting to me. Temporary penetration serves no one who is at the cap, and the movement speed was just a copy/paste of an already existing skill in the bow line, that was not that great.

The most fun I've had with it is in non CP BGs and PvP where I don't run around at pen cap. Just my experience. Earlier I mentioned that I broke Senche's out of the vault so now, in the above, I do a dodgeroll and gain extra pen and ws. Optimal? Probably not. Entertaining for at least me? Yes.

So one whole race with ~million of owners should be dedicated to make 3 PVP sets great again?

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So one whole race with ~million of owners should be dedicated to make 3 PVP sets great again?

So...wow no. No more so than "millions of owners" should be dedicated to making making stealth easier by an in-game foot.

MartiniDaniels · February 2019

Honestly saying I barely notice that speed increase if it is not stacked with other sources of speed. ZOS introduced swift jewelry, nerfed all the game's sources of major expedition for PVP reasons and now makes one race exclusive to run with stacked speed bonuses? I don't understand what's to argue hear, already there are ten polls where people who don't own bosmers agree that bosmer changes are stupid, bad both for gameplay and for lore. There are ton of ways to solve it, but I guess somebody in ZOS is just a craven to agree that this was his personal mistake so we are destined to sit on this useless detection and penetration for years.