Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

Its been changed. Its been done. YOUR problem is that you fail to accept that. Are you still waiting for new releases on 8 track?

This gives them a flavor apart from other races. It may not be optimal, it may not fit YOUR criteria for fun, but are you the measure of all things or just this?

I'm having fun with my bosmer and the racial change and a bit more so than I did before. Should I stop having fun because of YOUR measure?

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

anadandy wrote: »

And saying you "fixed" other people's opinions is trolling.

Forcing somebody else to fix their post could be called trolling by the same logic.

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

uFuqinwitme wrote: »

I am not a troll, I just don't see the sky falling or believe in run away hyperbole.

The sky is definitely not falling for anyone, Bosmer have gained some great passives from the changes, with a rare case of hardcore regen stackers seeing a loss. Eitherway you aren't trolling, but it is just difficult to deny that the stealth detection passive has turned a situational benefit into an almost entirely wasted stat. That is the primary focal point of the discussion, and something people become very frustrated with, and as you have seen it becomes easy for it to appear that you are accepting this part of the changes like the other segments.

Thank you for being rational. I can completely understand the frustration, I too felt it when I first read it on the PTS. Its a matter of living in the past or moving on. One way is grief, the other is coping. Its difficult to see people encourage and propagate grief over change.

Linaleah · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

They have been effected by this change. You generalize your play style as well. They have solidarity with the other posters here. And the only thing YOU are a spokesman for is the TROLL community.

And yet again, you have fixed nothing.

All who play Bosmer have been affected not just the supposed "they" some just handle it differently. I am not a troll, I just don't see the sky falling or believe in run away hyperbole.

The fact is things change and I'm sorry if this is news to anyone as somebody has failed you. Is it really what happens or how you handle it? Some like the change, some don't. No matter what somebody will not be happy, you just want your group to be the happy group while I say roll with it.

when have i ever spoken for ALL? i have spoken for those of us who ARE negatively affected. which are plural. WE. I litteraly said a LOT of us. and there IS a lot of us. i did NOT say all of us, i said a LOT. which is a CORRECT STATEMENT. this is NOT about you. its great that you are having fun. WE, those of us who played bosmer for built in stealth passives however, are NOT.

and here is the best part? they do NOT have to take away your fun to fix OUR fun. all they have to do is change stealth detection back to reduced detection radius. THAT's IT. and those of us who play for stealth? GET OUR LORE BASED STEALTH BACK. its really that simple.

Linaleah · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Its been changed. Its been done. YOUR problem is that you fail to accept that. Are you still waiting for new releases on 8 track?

This gives them a flavor apart from other races. It may not be optimal, it may not fit YOUR criteria for fun, but are you the measure of all things or just this?

I'm having fun with my bosmer and the racial change and a bit more so than I did before. Should I stop having fun because of YOUR measure?

they have reversed unpopular changes before. do you always just roll over and accept things? not ALL changes are good. we are not obligated to just accept them, there is nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction with poorly thought out change.

I mean... jewelry crafting is not entirely fixed IMO, but it WAS changed a fair bit, both rewards from writs AND amount of vouchers you get from master writs, not to mention amount of upgrade materials you need to actualy upgrade jewelry. again, not enough IMO, but do you think it would have been changed at ALL if people didn't speak up?

Ratzkifal · February 2019

Linaleah wrote: »

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Its been changed. Its been done. YOUR problem is that you fail to accept that. Are you still waiting for new releases on 8 track?

This gives them a flavor apart from other races. It may not be optimal, it may not fit YOUR criteria for fun, but are you the measure of all things or just this?

I'm having fun with my bosmer and the racial change and a bit more so than I did before. Should I stop having fun because of YOUR measure?

they have reversed unpopular changes before. do you always just roll over and accept things? not ALL changes are good. we are not obligated to just accept them, there is nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction with poorly thought out change.

Were are living in the....
tenor.gif?itemid=5112145

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

Linaleah wrote: »

when have i ever spoken for ALL? i have spoken for those of us who ARE negatively affected. which are plural. WE. I litteraly said a LOT of us. and there IS a lot of us. i did NOT say all of us, i said a LOT. which is a CORRECT STATEMENT. this is NOT about you. its great that you are having fun. WE, those of us who played bosmer for built in stealth passives however, are NOT.

You're right, this is not a me or you thing as we both started playing bosmer for that reason. The difference is that the change doesn't break the game for Bosmer it just changes it. Sure you'd like it back, but they did indeed remove it and I don't see them putting it back without taking away something. I don't see the point in going backwards.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

when have i ever spoken for ALL? i have spoken for those of us who ARE negatively affected. which are plural. WE. I litteraly said a LOT of us. and there IS a lot of us. i did NOT say all of us, i said a LOT. which is a CORRECT STATEMENT. this is NOT about you. its great that you are having fun. WE, those of us who played bosmer for built in stealth passives however, are NOT.

You're right, this is not a me or you thing as we both started playing bosmer for that reason. The difference is that the change doesn't break the game for Bosmer it just changes it. Sure you'd like it back, but they did indeed remove it and I don't see them putting it back without taking away something. I don't see the point in going backwards.

There is a pretty "neat" thing that we would gladly have removed again. Spoiler: It's the increased detection radius!
The dodgeroll is weird, but at least it doesn't violate the lore. Would you in all honesty miss the increased detection radius that turns Bosmer from thieves into guards?

Sylvermynx · February 2019

All y'all are carping at each other.. Not at all productive. You need to carp at ZOS.

Nope - I don't have any vested interest in this. My Bosmer aren't sneak thieves.

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

There is a pretty "neat" thing that we would gladly have removed again. Spoiler: It's the increased detection radius!
The dodgeroll is weird, but at least it doesn't violate the lore. Would you in all honesty miss the increased detection radius that turns Bosmer from thieves into guards?

I do actually like that. You know it doesn't make or break things, it just changes things.

Thieves into guards is a bit over the top. The stat change could be considered a reflection of their stealth prowess just in different form.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

Sylvermynx wrote: »

All y'all are carping at each other.. Not at all productive. You need to carp at ZOS.

Nope - I don't have any vested interest in this. My Bosmer aren't sneak thieves.

Well said!

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

Linaleah wrote: »

they have reversed unpopular changes before. do you always just roll over and accept things? not ALL changes are good. we are not obligated to just accept them, there is nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction with poorly thought out change.

The question is the "or what"? ZoS, change this back...or what? Voicing displeasure is one thing, but demanding a change back is short sighted imo. You assume the change is poorly thought out, but it is really only in your perception or if you'd rather I say....and those who share your perception. Why however would that perception trump all others? Again...or what?

Ratzkifal · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

they have reversed unpopular changes before. do you always just roll over and accept things? not ALL changes are good. we are not obligated to just accept them, there is nothing wrong with expressing dissatisfaction with poorly thought out change.

The question is the "or what"? ZoS, change this back...or what? Voicing displeasure is one thing, but demanding a change back is short sighted imo. You assume the change is poorly thought out, but it is really only in your perception or if you'd rather I say....and those who share your perception. Why however would that perception trump all others? Again...or what?

Or we will stop purchasing things because we feel like ZOS betrayed our expectations which are really easy to meet. Vote with your wallet! If something bothers you, complain until something is done about it or never come again.
Similarly I am wondering what your stake in this is. What does it matter to you what other players think and what they voice their displeasure on. You say it does not "make or break" things, so changing back won't either. You'll adapt to "our way" anyway, so what's with the opposition?

BlueRaven · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

There is a pretty "neat" thing that we would gladly have removed again. Spoiler: It's the increased detection radius!
The dodgeroll is weird, but at least it doesn't violate the lore. Would you in all honesty miss the increased detection radius that turns Bosmer from thieves into guards?

I do actually like that. You know it doesn't make or break things, it just changes things.

Thieves into guards is a bit over the top. The stat change could be considered a reflection of their stealth prowess just in different form.

“The stat change could be considered a reflection of their stealth prowess just in different form.”

Hahahahahaha!!!!!!

Uh no. It’s not.

“Hey get down and hide or the cops will see you!”

“No, don’t you understand? If I see them it’s the SAME as being hidden. Me standing here looking around is just prowess in a different form.”

Cundu_Ertur · February 2019

Is this another person arguing that a poison is exactly the same as an antidote?

Hand_Bacon · February 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

\

“The stat change could be considered a reflection of their stealth prowess just in different form.”

Hahahahahaha!!!!!!

Uh no. It’s not.

“Hey get down and hide or the cops will see you!”

“No, don’t you understand? If I see them it’s the SAME as being hidden. Me standing here looking around is just prowess in a different form.”

See this is the hyperbole laden crazy speak I was referring to.

I guess I need to clarify for some reason. The very very old phrase "set a thief to catch a thief" is what I mean. The stat of detecting stealth is a reflection of their stealth prowess. Its not hard to understand.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

Let's be realistic about this. ZOS won't make a hotfix to give Bosmer the stealth back. The outrage is just not big enough, because presumably the lore community isn't all that large in here.
We might get some answers if we can actually get someone to talk, but with the suggested new systems in the works it's kind of hard to get to talk to them if there are indeed plans. We would need someone under NDA to do this. Luckily we have class reps who are under NDA! If we can get a class rep in here and arm them with our arguments and lore facts to the point that they can represent our opinion accurately enough that they can go to ZOS and talk about it, we could then at least get some indirect communication going on.

If it goes like this

Rep: "Yeah ZOS said that they have not forgotten about Bosmer stealth. There are plans and you can rest easy. Just stay strong for the following months"

that would already make me happy.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

\

“The stat change could be considered a reflection of their stealth prowess just in different form.”

Hahahahahaha!!!!!!

Uh no. It’s not.

“Hey get down and hide or the cops will see you!”

“No, don’t you understand? If I see them it’s the SAME as being hidden. Me standing here looking around is just prowess in a different form.”

See this is the hyperbole laden crazy speak I was referring to.

I guess I need to clarify for some reason. The very very old phrase "set a thief to catch a thief" is what I mean. The stat of detecting stealth is a reflection of their stealth prowess. Its not hard to understand.

Sorry but you kind of provoked it. What you said before was crazy speak. What you said now, your clarification, makes more sense, but is still turning the thief into a guard, because that is exactly what a guard is doing. Are Bosmer known to steal from thieves only? Heck, detection doesn't even help in the act! It helps prevent it. That's not a nod to them being thieves in the lore.

BlueRaven · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

\

“The stat change could be considered a reflection of their stealth prowess just in different form.”

Hahahahahaha!!!!!!

Uh no. It’s not.

“Hey get down and hide or the cops will see you!”

“No, don’t you understand? If I see them it’s the SAME as being hidden. Me standing here looking around is just prowess in a different form.”

See this is the hyperbole laden crazy speak I was referring to.

I guess I need to clarify for some reason. The very very old phrase "set a thief to catch a thief" is what I mean. The stat of detecting stealth is a reflection of their stealth prowess. Its not hard to understand.

So if I am to understand this correctly. Bosmers will go from being stealthy, to losing that ability and gaining great eyesight (a kahjit ability, not that I would wish that on any race in this game), to losing that great eyesight again, and getting stealth back later on.
And all this shifting is because of their stealthy nature.

And this “totally works with the lore” rewrite of what stealthy means, is also reflected in Imperials now being better at them in sneaking around? How does that fit in?

BlueRaven · February 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Let's be realistic about this. ZOS won't make a hotfix to give Bosmer the stealth back. The outrage is just not big enough, because presumably the lore community isn't all that large in here.
We might get some answers if we can actually get someone to talk, but with the suggested new systems in the works it's kind of hard to get to talk to them if there are indeed plans. We would need someone under NDA to do this. Luckily we have class reps who are under NDA! If we can get a class rep in here and arm them with our arguments and lore facts to the point that they can represent our opinion accurately enough that they can go to ZOS and talk about it, we could then at least get some indirect communication going on.

If it goes like this

Rep: "Yeah ZOS said that they have not forgotten about Bosmer stealth. There are plans and you can rest easy. Just stay strong for the following months"

that would already make me happy.

You are a lot more optimistic about this then I am. I suggested having ZoS do an eso live about the race changes and was immediately shot down.

wedgebert · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

I guess I need to clarify for some reason. The very very old phrase "set a thief to catch a thief" is what I mean. The stat of detecting stealth is a reflection of their stealth prowess. Its not hard to understand.

The problem is that even that fails to work here because the stealth detection bonus is completely useless. It has no place in PVE because either enemies don't sneak, or the ones that do are so blindly rare that I'd wager most people have never seen one. And in PVP it's useless because it's such a short range that one of three things happens.

You still don't detect the person because they're using a bow and thus outside the radius
You get an extra 1/2 second warning as they still manage to rush in and gank you
You still don't detect them because it only works on stealth, not invisibility like most melee PVPers use

So not only did we lose what is pretty much the primary defining characteristic of a Bosmer, it was replaced with the equivalent of yelling "anyone there?" and hoping your enemies are kind enough to answer.

*edit: 1/2 *second*

max_only · February 2019

Why are you arguing @Hand_Bacon ? No one is asking to take away the roll dodge.

Are you using stealth detect a lot in the base game? Because that’s the only piece of the passive we want changed.

If you are just arguing because “you don’t speak for me!” then okay bro, you’re special and we see you.

We are not asking for a full reversal. If you read the thread you would have seen what we are asking is a compromise.

On live today: Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Our request only hurts you if you are detecting stealth (crouched) enemies. Are you? It doesn’t work on Nightblade cloak btw and 3 meters is inside of melee range (Incapacitate is 5 meters and Biting Jabs is 8x6 meters). There aren’t any stealth enemies in pve. You don’t have to support us, just know that your dissent makes no sense.

Ratzkifal · February 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Let's be realistic about this. ZOS won't make a hotfix to give Bosmer the stealth back. The outrage is just not big enough, because presumably the lore community isn't all that large in here.
We might get some answers if we can actually get someone to talk, but with the suggested new systems in the works it's kind of hard to get to talk to them if there are indeed plans. We would need someone under NDA to do this. Luckily we have class reps who are under NDA! If we can get a class rep in here and arm them with our arguments and lore facts to the point that they can represent our opinion accurately enough that they can go to ZOS and talk about it, we could then at least get some indirect communication going on.

If it goes like this

Rep: "Yeah ZOS said that they have not forgotten about Bosmer stealth. There are plans and you can rest easy. Just stay strong for the following months"

that would already make me happy.

You are a lot more optimistic about this then I am. I suggested having ZoS do an eso live about the race changes and was immediately shot down.

Well, I would still try to bring it up during the next ESO live where they answer questions. The more people do, the higher our chances that they will answer them. But even then, it's likely that Gina won't pick it because the guests can't answer those or it's not appropriate for some reason to answer them. So I wouldn't bet on that. An entire ESO live will be too much effort for them when only three to four changes really need talking about.

The Rep thing, as long as we actually have a Rep willing to represent us in this, is much more achievable. The question though is: Who do we ask and what are our arguments?

I mean, we gotta agree on a few arguments first, right? And we have to collect them here. So I'd suggest we do those over the next insert meassure unit of time.

JayAstrophel · February 2019

I’ve been following this thread since it came out and feel like I should voice my opinion.

I don’t have any Bosmer, but I do have two Khajiit (my main race) and I adore being able to sneak around better with them both. Stealth is my favorite way to play through the zones. I sneak past enemies, stealth through houses to steal everything, and sneaking is what I do to get around instead of just walking or running. I can certainly understand the frustration you’re all feeling, in a way. I know that if they took stealth of khajiit and replaced it with something useless for what I love, PvE, I’d be very confused and saddened. And if it’s had been left on Bosmer, I wouldn’t want to race change. To me my characters are, well, characters! Not bundles of stats.

If the stealth trait had been taken away and replaced with something else, useful for PvE and relating to the lore, I would be able to get more behind it. This makes zero sense to me, though. The racial traits have always been primarily PvE focused as that’s the main game - or at least that’s what I assumed. Making a trait that’s useless to tons of people doesn’t help things.

I put my name forwards with all of yours. This needs to be changed back, or at least changed to something helpful for PvE. Nothing is in stealth in PvE.

max_only · February 2019

JayAstrophel wrote: »

I’ve been following this thread since it came out and feel like I should voice my opinion.

I don’t have any Bosmer, but I do have two Khajiit (my main race) and I adore being able to sneak around better with them both. Stealth is my favorite way to play through the zones. I sneak past enemies, stealth through houses to steal everything, and sneaking is what I do to get around instead of just walking or running. I can certainly understand the frustration you’re all feeling, in a way. I know that if they took stealth of khajiit and replaced it with something useless for what I love, PvE, I’d be very confused and saddened. And if it’s had been left on Bosmer, I wouldn’t want to race change. To me my characters are, well, characters! Not bundles of stats.

If the stealth trait had been taken away and replaced with something else, useful for PvE and relating to the lore, I would be able to get more behind it. This makes zero sense to me, though. The racial traits have always been primarily PvE focused as that’s the main game - or at least that’s what I assumed. Making a trait that’s useless to tons of people doesn’t help things.

I put my name forwards with all of yours. This needs to be changed back, or at least changed to something helpful for PvE. Nothing is in stealth in PvE.

Thank you.

Lylith · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

when have i ever spoken for ALL? i have spoken for those of us who ARE negatively affected. which are plural. WE. I litteraly said a LOT of us. and there IS a lot of us. i did NOT say all of us, i said a LOT. which is a CORRECT STATEMENT. this is NOT about you. its great that you are having fun. WE, those of us who played bosmer for built in stealth passives however, are NOT.

You're right, this is not a me or you thing as we both started playing bosmer for that reason. The difference is that the change doesn't break the game for Bosmer it just changes it. Sure you'd like it back, but they did indeed remove it and I don't see them putting it back without taking away something. I don't see the point in going backwards.

tbh, they can take away that stealth detection *** and give something useful back.

no problem with that, whatsoever.

Jaraal · February 2019

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

You assume the change is poorly thought out

It IS poorly thought out. Being stealthy is a core value for Bosmer since the beginning of the Elder Scrolls. What makes it worse is that not only did they ruin the play style for people who built their characters around the traditional wood elf vibe (not to mention destroyed the profit potential for people who's primary in game income is from thievery), but they rubbed it in our faces by saying "you have to PvP to see any benefit from these racial changes"..... which is insulting to people who are primarily PvEers. In short: not only are we taking away something from your play style, but we want you to change your game focus (to PvP) or you get NOTHING."

So yeah. Not only is it poorly thought out, but it's insulting to the majority of the player base, who don't PvP.

Arato · February 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

Did anyone else read this?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461355/the-story-of-a-confused-bosmer#latest

It was gold and the fact that it got moved into the fiction/rp forums is just telling about how much ZOS actually cares about its customers. Another reminder CANCEL YOUR SUBS. do NOT give them money for screwing you over.

Arato · February 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Let's be realistic about this. ZOS won't make a hotfix to give Bosmer the stealth back. The outrage is just not big enough, because presumably the lore community isn't all that large in here.
We might get some answers if we can actually get someone to talk, but with the suggested new systems in the works it's kind of hard to get to talk to them if there are indeed plans. We would need someone under NDA to do this. Luckily we have class reps who are under NDA! If we can get a class rep in here and arm them with our arguments and lore facts to the point that they can represent our opinion accurately enough that they can go to ZOS and talk about it, we could then at least get some indirect communication going on.

If it goes like this

Rep: "Yeah ZOS said that they have not forgotten about Bosmer stealth. There are plans and you can rest easy. Just stay strong for the following months"

that would already make me happy.

I say question bomb them next ESO live, to the point that it disrupts anyone asking any other questions because you know they'll ignore it if it's just a few people posting a question or two once or twice.

Eiron77 · February 2019

Arato wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Did anyone else read this?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461355/the-story-of-a-confused-bosmer#latest

It was gold and the fact that it got moved into the fiction/rp forums is just telling about how much ZOS actually cares about its customers. Another reminder CANCEL YOUR SUBS. do NOT give them money for screwing you over.

No surprise there!

Of course they did. When we complained at the beginning of the PTS, they sent a message through the class reps in an eerily similar fashion to Blizzard of: We "hear" you[r] complaints about bosmers losing stealth. And proceeded to explain of their mystical future plans to give stealth benefits outside of race! This is just cake for us to eat up right? Well, spoiler alert, this clearly shows they did not hear us.

So, we continued to voice our concerns in every feasible logical way, stating over and over how this breaks the lore. So what did they do? ...
...ZOS realized their error!

And promptly rewrote the lore in the wood elves' class description.

Classic ZOS.