Beginning of the end for Crown Crates.

Jayman1000

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Watchdog wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Ok so if crown crates are bad then should we ban the millions of blind boxes and mystery bags that are legally being sold too? Does that count as “gambling”? No, it doesn’t.

Actually, that is kind of what the EU countries are considering now.

Are loot boxes gambling? If so, should they be regulated the same way? Can the companies selling them ensure no kids get to them? Wouldn't it be easier to simply ban them?

You’re missing the point. I wasn’t talking about EA’s crappy loot boxes or anything related to EU in the original post. I was referring to the Funko POP! Blind bags and the others. Bling bags and Mystery boxes are not in a game. They’re actually sold in stores.

Actually that could possibly count as gambling depending on the circumstances, but it would be highly dependent of that concrete implementation, scale and form.

Glurin

Androconium wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

I've never liked the thought of "We're the government and we're here to help".
Not everyone is so irresponsible that they need the government to intervene to protect them from themselves.

It's not a case of being protected from yourself.

It's a case of being protected from predatory marketing.

In other words, "We're the government and we're here to help protect you from yourself."

Yes! Those are other words! Not what I said.

And just what do you think "being protected from predatory marketing" means?

weg0

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

Casinos and slot machines have a guy at the door checking a players age. A video game doesn’t really have the same ability to verify a players age. In the US, states have different age restrictions on gambling, so if buying loot boxes gets classified as gambling, it is safe to say they will have to be removed/reworked.

And would they simply raise prices elsewhere? Price is determined by supply and demand. In the case of mmo’s, demand begets demand, so if they set the price too high such that fewer people pay to play, even fewer people will be willing to spend their time on dead servers. In fact, without the crown crate cash grab, they may be forced to find other ways to bring in greater crowds. For example, if they could lower the money premium 25% to increase monthly subscribers 33% they might be able boost profits.

I tend to agree with the OP, gambling creates a system of perverse incentives, and all games would be better without it.

Davor

lagrue wrote: »

[What I am afraid of a bit is that in case of such a ban, ZOS would simply disable the Crown Store for us in the affected countries, instead of changing their business practise.

That is what I thought as well, but seeing what they did with Fallout 3, they do make concessions for the countries. They got rid of the atom bomb in Megaton. I can't remember if something was done for Australia or not. Could have been another game. My guess is if a country says it's illegal and Zenimax doesn't want to change they will just take the crates out. I can't see them not selling in a country to not make money.

*edit*

In the end I guess since EA is taking a stance against Belgium, we will see what happens and who blinks first.

Glurin

Davor wrote: »

In the end I guess since EA is taking a stance against Belgium, we will see what happens and who blinks first.

Tough call. EA has a history of throwing a temper tantrum when someone calls them out on their ***. I remember reading some years back that they had won golden poo awards for worst company in the world several years in a row, and pretty much every time they did they threw a fit and blamed ignorant consumers. This is as opposed to other "winners" who calmly and humbly acknowledged it as a sign that they need to do better.

So, yeah, just picture a petulant teenager who just got grounded storming off to their room to slam the door shut and play heavy metal at max volume on the stereo and you've pretty much got EA.

Perwulf

Trash looking mounts in ESO already costs up to 4,500 crowns and they don't even have any new animations or distinctive looks. Remember Elk mounts and some of their re-skins that costs around around that price tag? How do you think the pricing of apex mount would be? Even more so the radiant apex? I suggest the lootboxes stay but in increased chances & cheaper crown pricing or a chance of re-roll but sacrificing one reward each time.

The reason for this is that, I'd rather pay for let's say 5.000 crowns for 15 lootboxes with a chance to get an apex mounts along with some of their previously overpriced crown items rather than pay for 10,000-17,000 crowns for one singular item. Houses already costs that much.

Glurin

Again, what you've just said can easily and very accurately be summarized as "The government needs to protect people from themselves." There's nothing new there. It's just more "Think of the children!"

Now if you want to argue what actually constitutes a scam and what doesn't, and what's to be done about it, if anything, that's fine. Just don't be parading victims around like oh so many politicians do when they want to pass the worst kinds of legislation and need people to shut off the logic center of their brains to do it.

Sarannah

I do actually see loot boxes(crown crates, mystery boxes etc) as gambling, and in every other game I would call it that.

However, TESO has a unique fallback system where you can easily earn crown store gems and buy it outright. Which means even if you 'gamble' and get nothing, there is still a maximum amount of tries before you can outright get yourself the item at 100% chance. This removes the gambling part from the crown crates. On games with boxes similar to crown crates, I often praise the gem/fallback system TESO has in place.

PS: To ZOS: Would love to see a sale for character slots, and banker/merchant.

Androconium

idk wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Let's wait and see what happens first before we start declaring victory.

The fact it's at least being investigated and looked into actively though is a nice start. Also remember that companies could always up the prices of items to offset the loss from loot boxes, victories could fast become defeats.

Also remember that you are on the Company's side.

Just because he is a community ambassador is far from being on the companies side and on multiple occasions he has called out Zos on changes they have made.

He has only spoken logic that nothing real has changed yet. Besides EA doing their crates very different that Zos opening up a huge cavern there is not a single country that has forced EA to change their ways yet.

So to suggest his logical recommendation of caution until we see what actually happens is somehow taking the side of Zos is without any shred of logic.

Be cautious then.

companies could always up the prices of items to offset the loss from loot boxes

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Sarannah wrote: »

I do actually see loot boxes(crown crates, mystery boxes etc) as gambling, and in every other game I would call it that.

However, TESO has a unique fallback system where you can easily earn crown store gems and buy it outright. Which means even if you 'gamble' and get nothing, there is still a maximum amount of tries before you can outright get yourself the item at 100% chance. This removes the gambling part from the crown crates. On games with boxes similar to crown crates, I often praise the gem/fallback system TESO has in place.

PS: To ZOS: Would love to see a sale for character slots, and banker/merchant.

And we can get free boxes from the daily rewards which I like

Androconium

Glurin wrote: »

Again, what you've just said can easily and very accurately be summarized as "The government needs to protect people from themselves." There's nothing new there. It's just more "Think of the children!"

Now if you want to argue what actually constitutes a scam and what doesn't, and what's to be done about it, if anything, that's fine. Just don't be parading victims around like oh so many politicians do when they want to pass the worst kinds of legislation and need people to shut off the logic center of their brains to do it.

Just don't be parading victims around like oh so many politicians do when they want to pass the worst kinds of legislation and need people to shut off the logic center of their brains to do it

.

Did you have an example?

Androconium

Sarannah wrote: »

I do actually see loot boxes(crown crates, mystery boxes etc) as gambling, and in every other game I would call it that.

However, TESO has a unique fallback system where you can easily earn crown store gems and buy it outright. Which means even if you 'gamble' and get nothing, there is still a maximum amount of tries before you can outright get yourself the item at 100% chance. This removes the gambling part from the crown crates. On games with boxes similar to crown crates, I often praise the gem/fallback system TESO has in place.

PS: To ZOS: Would love to see a sale for character slots, and banker/merchant.

Here is someone that doesn't recognise the scam.

Whenever you get GEMS, it is because you already have that object.
The value of gems that you get back is 1/3 of the value of what you would have paid in gems through the store.
So while your 100% "chance" eventually comes up, it cost AT LEAST 3 times more. At least, probably way more.

But you seem to be a rational adult. I'm sure that you are really that worried about it.

albesca

LordSarevok wrote: »

As it stands, third party websites have tracked radiant apex mount drop rates to be sub 1% with thousands of examples. So an average to make it easy to translate from crowns, to real life money is needed. If you bought the crowns not on sale and fell into the average on attaining the mount, the estimated cost is USD $249.99 at today's crown prices to attain the average chance of getting the mount. I think most people would agree that $249.99 USD for a cosmetic is a bit much.

Besides the mount you'd have a lot of consumables (or gems) and likely costumes, pets, lesser mounts and other collectibles, so it's not fair to say that a radiant mount costs $250 by itself

Unknown_Redemption

albesca wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

As it stands, third party websites have tracked radiant apex mount drop rates to be sub 1% with thousands of examples. So an average to make it easy to translate from crowns, to real life money is needed. If you bought the crowns not on sale and fell into the average on attaining the mount, the estimated cost is USD $249.99 at today's crown prices to attain the average chance of getting the mount. I think most people would agree that $249.99 USD for a cosmetic is a bit much.

Besides the mount you'd have a lot of consumables (or gems) and likely costumes, pets, lesser mounts and other collectibles, so it's not fair to say that a radiant mount costs $250 by itself

For an ultra rare cosmetic? No. I think 250 is fair.

Fischblut

If I compare the cost of crates VS items I actually wanted from them... Of course buying those few items directly from store would be cheaper... But with all the gems I've got from duplicates and consumables, I could buy many more items. For example, I bought Dro m'Athra senche for 100 gems - and while it's nice mount, I don't like it enough to spend 4500 crowns on it, thus I wouldn't buy it from store directly. I bought Toxin Doctor costume for 40 gems - and I wouldn't buy it directly even for 500 crowns RNG gave me many costumes and some tattoos which became part of my characters' images - but I wouldn't buy them for gems or for crowns/gold, so I'm grateful to crates for those.

If crates were gone for some reason, we would first need to get a sale where we could spend all our gems on all crate items. Then we would need all crate items in store for sane crown prices. Otherwise crates can continue They only need to make Radiant rewards purchasable with gems.

Besides the mount you'd have a lot of consumables (or gems) and likely costumes, pets, lesser mounts and other collectibles, so it's not fair to say that a radiant mount costs $250 by itself

I agree. We get many things, and it's just a matter of taste if we like what we get or not. I would not be able to afford buying a single mount for such insane price - no matter how much I loved the mount

And I love promotions with free crates! For people who never bought a single crate, it's nice chance to get something cool for free. I used to be like them, and I got a bit more than 300 gems from free crates back then, let alone some cosmetics, pets and mounts from RNG. By now I would have 400 gems already, meaning I could get 4 legendary mounts or 1 Apex mount of my liking for free just thanks to promotions

AlexanderDeLarge

I really hope they're gone by next year because I think it's a very reasonable expectation that users know what they're buying or at least have a choice to purchase outright.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO

next on the hit list for eu is the add ons in game like combat metrics and loot looker, these look at peeps personal data, which is illegal under new eu law, unless each person asks each other if ok to see

Caligamy_ESO

I like how we're celebrating that news thinking, "Yeah take that!" ...to the company actively using this practice on us while we simultaneously say, "Take my money!"

..Humans..

Fake Remedy

just make us all subscribe and rid the game of this cancer once and for all imo.

Tipsy

Fake Remedy wrote: »

just make us all subscribe and rid the game of this cancer once and for all imo.

Agree

While I believe the game has come a long way,the pretty aura momentos in the wild hunt boxes lately got me thinking;
This could have been put to much better use..
And longtime issues bordering gamebreaking still aren't fixed,like the infinite loadscreens,the scandaleously broken group finder,...

So it is important to recognize the danger with these crown boxes ;they are turning into a potential makeshift for future quality content & performance.
The performance suffers under them as it shows bug fixing is no longer on the top priority list.
Some people I know ingame have mentioned that they are getting really angry with this game at times as the longtime issues still persist ,while at the same time getting all this crownstore fluff.
Follow the money I guess , but in the long run I believe the boxes are a plague on the game.
The only advice i'd like to give on the matter ;get priorities straight before its too late.

menathradiel

Davor wrote: »

menathradiel wrote: »

lagrue wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

Slots and casinos are not aiming at children and under age minors.. Game companies are.

Funny because the vast majority of games out there with loot boxes are rated T or M games not intended for child audiences.

I have yet to see a kid's game offer this feature.

Sims Freeplay (rated 10+) has "mystery boxes", which you open to get a random assortment of furniture items, where the more keys you use the rarer the items within it. Used to be that boxes were earned by doing weekly quests to get the keys that unlock them, now they also sell the keys directly in the store. It's basically the same mechanic as loot boxes except instead of buying the box you are buying the keys that open the box.

Funny thing. Who is the Publisher? EA. It seems EA is not in the video game business anymore but the gambling business now.

I agree EA has become quite predatory, but to be fair it's not just them. It's common in IOS games to have paid for random reward mechanics, be they loot boxes, keys, or "extra spins" on daily reward wheels.

I'm fine with things like that in general - what adults spend their money on is their own business - but I do think they should not be present in games for children.

Jayman1000

Kuwhar wrote: »

Lot's of fascists in this thread i see.

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

That's how innovation occurs

"innovation"

solid argument you have there

Are you implying innovation doesn't occur in a capitalist system? I have about 250 years of evidence to the contrary.

No I was simply laughing out loud about the use of the word "innovation" in this discussion about the lootbox mechanic. A mechanic that is everything but innovative and especially so in the ways that it is typically implemented (eso is not exempt from this sadly). While I generally agree that innovation usually thrives much better in capitalist systems you couldn't have chosen a worse context.

.

Kuwhar

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Lot's of fascists in this thread i see.

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

That's how innovation occurs

"innovation"

solid argument you have there

Are you implying innovation doesn't occur in a capitalist system? I have about 250 years of evidence to the contrary.

No I was simply laughing out loud about the use of the word "innovation" in this discussion about the lootbox mechanic. A mechanic that is everything but innovative and especially so in the ways that it is typically implemented (eso is not exempt from this sadly). While I generally agree that innovation usually thrives much better in capitalist systems you couldn't have chosen a worse context.

.

I wasn't saying I like loot crates, I don't.

The point was that allowing businesses to try different models, like it or dislike it, good model or bad model, is what leads to innovation in the long run.

And considering how much profit is derived from the loot box business model vs the old and strict p2p or b2p models i'd say it does indeed qualify as innovative. Regardless of whether or not we like it.

(You could argue that ESO implementing it isn't "innovative" since it's copying other companies models, but the model itself is relatively new, therefore an innovative model)

Cpt_Teemo

The Rng in these crate sets is pretty dumb tbh, I got the flaming skull 4 times, and one camel mount mostly out of 45 boxes, I mean isn't there a bigger pool, oh and also forgot about 8 Grand xp scrolls even though they were 33 gems each can't argue that but the price of 45 boxes wasn't worth what I got tbh.

Jayman1000

Kuwhar wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Lot's of fascists in this thread i see.

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

That's how innovation occurs

"innovation"

solid argument you have there

Are you implying innovation doesn't occur in a capitalist system? I have about 250 years of evidence to the contrary.

No I was simply laughing out loud about the use of the word "innovation" in this discussion about the lootbox mechanic. A mechanic that is everything but innovative and especially so in the ways that it is typically implemented (eso is not exempt from this sadly). While I generally agree that innovation usually thrives much better in capitalist systems you couldn't have chosen a worse context.

.

I wasn't saying I like loot crates, I don't.

The point was that allowing businesses to try different models, like it or dislike it, good model or bad model, is what leads to innovation in the long run.

And considering how much profit is derived from the loot box business model vs the old and strict p2p or b2p models i'd say it does indeed qualify as innovative. Regardless of whether or not we like it.

(You could argue that ESO implementing it isn't "innovative" since it's copying other companies models, but the model itself is relatively new, therefore an innovative model)

So innovative = simply new ways of making the most profit? With no regard for how interesting or enjoyable those ways are? (or how much more enjoyable and interesting they could have been? Lootboxes aren't exactly new anymore btw, not in the context of this day an age) I kind of assumed you intended to use the word innovation positively, but I can see that I assumed wrong because here it just becomes everything that is wrong with capitalism. Effectively "innovative" means here "highly profitable moneygrabbing".

What I don't get is why you are defending lootboxes when you say you don't like them? Sounds pretty contradictory to me... you don't like them in ESO but you think it's all fine and dandy that they are there? Mind, no one here is proposing the government right out bans lootboxes do they? It's the gambling mechanic that needs to adhere to gambling laws, but gaming companies are circumventing these laws. They want to keep their gambling slot machines (that's what crown crates really are) and keep earning tons of cash on it, but they don't want to take the responsibility that the lawmakers actually intended for them to take. Additionally they don't want to change the mechanic so it stops being gambling and I guess this is because it's so easy to just keep doing the same with minimal effort and still rake in the cash. (this is the part that I actually found not to be very innovative, they just keep doing the same superficial moneygrabbing).

Syncronaut

People who defend lootboxes are generaly a gambling addicts. (or paid people who spread missinformation for living)

Eso however will not remove them in every country. Maybe in Belgium they will end up disabled, but for the rest of world right now no.

We have to wait and see what happens in future and hope Ea realy gets destroyed in court.

Oh also we need that cat in prison.

Cpt_Teemo

Syncronaut wrote: »

People who defend lootboxes are generaly a gambling addicts. (or paid people who spread missinformation for living)

Eso however will not remove them in every country. Maybe in Belgium they will end up disabled, but for the rest of world right now no.

We have to wait and see what happens in future and hope Ea realy gets destroyed in court.

Oh also we need that cat in prison.

Well if EA goes down for loot boxes i'm sure alot of other companies will since EA is the king of loot boxes

Kuwhar

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

Lot's of fascists in this thread i see.

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Kuwhar wrote: »

That's how innovation occurs

"innovation"

solid argument you have there

Are you implying innovation doesn't occur in a capitalist system? I have about 250 years of evidence to the contrary.

No I was simply laughing out loud about the use of the word "innovation" in this discussion about the lootbox mechanic. A mechanic that is everything but innovative and especially so in the ways that it is typically implemented (eso is not exempt from this sadly). While I generally agree that innovation usually thrives much better in capitalist systems you couldn't have chosen a worse context.

.

I wasn't saying I like loot crates, I don't.

The point was that allowing businesses to try different models, like it or dislike it, good model or bad model, is what leads to innovation in the long run.

And considering how much profit is derived from the loot box business model vs the old and strict p2p or b2p models i'd say it does indeed qualify as innovative. Regardless of whether or not we like it.

(You could argue that ESO implementing it isn't "innovative" since it's copying other companies models, but the model itself is relatively new, therefore an innovative model)

So innovative = simply new ways of making the most profit? With no regard for how interesting or enjoyable those ways are? (or how much more enjoyable and interesting they could have been?) I kind of assumed you intended to use the word innovation positively, but I can see that I assumed wrong because here it just becomes everything that is wrong with capitalism. Effectively "innovative" means here "highly profitable moneygrabbing".

What I don't get is why you are defending lootboxes when you say you don't like them? Sounds pretty contradictory to me... you don't like them in ESO but you think it's all fine and dandy that they are there? Mind, no one here is proposing the government right out bans lootboxes do they? It's the gambling mechanic that needs to adhere to gambling laws, but gaming companies are circumventing these laws. They want to keep their gambling slot machines (that's what crown crates really are) and keep earning tons of cash on it, but they don't want to take the responsibility that the lawmakers actually intended for them to take.

The definition of innovation has no mention of interest level or enjoyment. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation

You are merely attaching those things to it because you don't like the model.

Innovation is simply a new model, idea or device. It's use does generally imply "positive" but that's entirely subjective especially in the case of lootcrates. Are they a positive for the consumer? Debatable. Are they a positive for companies? Without a doubt. And if it's good for the companies? One could argue it's good for both consumers and employees as well.

I don't like the model personally but I want companies to have the freedom to use it if they want to; no contradiction. Much like the old saying: I may disagree with what you say but i'll defend your right to say it.

--Mind, no one here is proposing the government right out bans lootboxes do they?--

Actually yes, people are. That's the entire premise of the thread and the sentiment of many posters that lootboxes shouldn't be allowed.

ManwithBeard9

Ever since Crown Crates came out, I've spent less money on Crowns. Why? Because I can get most of what interests me from 15 crates or ill have enough gems to buy it outright. Heck, I'm sitting on over 730 gems right now and i haven't bought a crate in at least a month.

Jayman1000

Kuwhar wrote: »

--Mind, no one here is proposing the government right out bans lootboxes do they?--

Actually yes, people are. That's the entire premise of the thread and the sentiment of many posters that lootboxes shouldn't be allowed.

I dont think that is the case. People don't want the gambling slot machine lootboxes, unless they specifically adhere to gambling laws (which they dont because they keep circumventing those laws to keep gambling inside games that really shouldnt have anything to do with gambling). I think people here that are against would accept a type of lootbox if it were in a more interesting and non-gambly form. After all when defeating certain bosses we are also awarded with a "lootbox" but people aren't complaining about that. When people talk about the lootbox mechanic as we know it, and want to have it banned, they are talking about the slot machine gambling mechanic for which there is no other way to obtain them than play the slot machine. That needs to go.