Beginning of the end for Crown Crates.

Acrolas

The EU is probably singling out EA and FIFA because soccer is far more popular across the pond, and because your luck with FIFA loot boxes directly affects your in-game performance. With the game's E rating, that would be predatory as you're coercing minors into a P2W situation.

EA also has physical offices in many of these countries, making the company easier to directly legislate per region.

But ZOS is fine for now, as "France and England have both criticized loot boxes, but say they don't violate gambling laws."

Governing Law.

For residents of North America, these Terms of Service and all Disputes (as defined in Section 15 above) shall be governed by the laws of the State of Maryland, USA, excluding its conflicts of laws rules and principles that would result in another State or country's laws applying to these Terms of Service or any Disputes.

If You reside outside of North America, then these Terms of Service and all Disputes shall be governed by the laws of England, excluding its conflicts-of-law rules and principles that would result in another State or country's laws applying to these Terms of Service or any Disputes.
https://www.abcactionnews.com/newsy/ea-is-reportedly-under-investigation-in-belgium-for-use-of-loot-boxes


I don't see any path for conflicts of law to apply here. It's not just a matter of "Belgum says, so Belgium wins". There has to be substantial evidence that Belgium is more deserving and relevant of a jurisdiction to determine the outcome than the status quo (England).

If a certain US state steps in, that's different. That's why sweepstakes aren't available to certain individuals in certain states. But I think before all's done, there will be a distinction in loot boxes. Those where randomness is a major factor affecting an individual's competitiveness in game content, and those where randomness provides no competitive advantage in game content.

And because of all the "this crate season is nothing but crap" threads, I think we've determined that the heat on Crown Crates is much more about not being able to get a passive collectible that you would have used crowns on anyway than anything that impacts in-game skill or success.

Ackwalan

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Premature to think ESO will have to ditch crates. If anything, smart companies will make adjustments if needed. Cash shop will still be strong revenue regardless.

Not premature to think this. Belgium is charging EA with criminal misconduct for not complying. The fact that EA pushed harder has caused 15 other countries to follow suite.

It’s is nothing but premature conjecture.

Belgium is only one country
Charges are meaningless. It’s the end result, which can be substantial or absolutely nothing, that matter.

Any arm chair attorney can tell you that much. Basically your counting your chickens before they hatch.

It may be premature conjecture of the outcome on the criminal prosecution. Yet it is not when the country has passed laws and all other gaming companies have already complied. It is not conjecture in to say in that in Belgium loot box's are illegal, and will not exist in their current format. All other companies have made loot box's earn able in game.

It’s very much premature conjecture. Laws hold little value until tested in courts. That is a fact.

Your also assuming the nature of EA boxes are the same as what we have here or that a small tweak will not solve any issue.

So yes, premature conjecture.

I did state in the quoted text that they will not exist in their current format. If they tweak the box's to be better for the player, it is a small victory. And hopefully will push for more control.

It’s still an assumption of what the end result will be behind the premature conjecture that anything will change here.

I agree I was wrong. Either way this needs to gain more momentum. I have already sent a letter to my senator and a donation to Chris Lee of Hawaii.

Instead of sending money to a Senator, that will never read your letter, you should have spent that money on a game that does things the way you like.

Troneon

About bloody time.

Knowing ZO$ though the new prices will be insane.

dotme

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

Look at the bigger picture. If crown creates were eliminated then a very large revenue stream would be eliminated and ZoS would look for ways to make that up. A possible situation would be to limit even more content to ESO Plus and possibly increase ESO Plus membership.

IMO ZoS has done a good job with Crown Crates and not making it Pay-To-Win, I would much rather them keep the Crown Crates and make revenue off of that then whatever the alternative would be.

What if the "alternative" was simply selling what's currently in the crates?

ESO is a video game, not a casino. If the items in the crates were available for crowns, ZOS would have seen a lot more of my money. I do not buy crates because that would be like walking into Old Navy, dropping $50 on a chance to win a pair of jeans, and walking out with 2 pairs of socks instead.

I bought crates once, a year ago. Got totally burned. It wasn't "fun", I didn't smile, and I will never buy them again. The whole process brought me no joy.

On the other hand, I still pick up things from the crown store on a regular basis including houses. I like buying things. But only when I know what I'm getting. I realize not everyone feels this way so I can only speak for myself of course

Universe

Acrolas

dotme wrote: »

I do not buy crates because that would be like walking into Old Navy, dropping $50 on a chance to win a pair of jeans, and walking out with 2 pairs of socks instead.

You do know there are dozens of clothing subscriptions that will send you random assortments of clothing every month, right? Generally the clothing has an MSRP in excess of the prorated subscription cost.

That's the lateral comparison you were looking for. Not the distortion you presented merely for the purpose of distortion.

Facefister

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

You don't want video games fall under gambling regulations.

LordSarevok

Ackwalan wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Premature to think ESO will have to ditch crates. If anything, smart companies will make adjustments if needed. Cash shop will still be strong revenue regardless.

Not premature to think this. Belgium is charging EA with criminal misconduct for not complying. The fact that EA pushed harder has caused 15 other countries to follow suite.

It’s is nothing but premature conjecture.

Belgium is only one country
Charges are meaningless. It’s the end result, which can be substantial or absolutely nothing, that matter.

Any arm chair attorney can tell you that much. Basically your counting your chickens before they hatch.

It may be premature conjecture of the outcome on the criminal prosecution. Yet it is not when the country has passed laws and all other gaming companies have already complied. It is not conjecture in to say in that in Belgium loot box's are illegal, and will not exist in their current format. All other companies have made loot box's earn able in game.

It’s very much premature conjecture. Laws hold little value until tested in courts. That is a fact.

Your also assuming the nature of EA boxes are the same as what we have here or that a small tweak will not solve any issue.

So yes, premature conjecture.

I did state in the quoted text that they will not exist in their current format. If they tweak the box's to be better for the player, it is a small victory. And hopefully will push for more control.

It’s still an assumption of what the end result will be behind the premature conjecture that anything will change here.

I agree I was wrong. Either way this needs to gain more momentum. I have already sent a letter to my senator and a donation to Chris Lee of Hawaii.

Instead of sending money to a Senator, that will never read your letter, you should have spent that money on a game that does things the way you like.

Unfortunately most companies are going this route. As they see EA's earning reporting 67% of their companies revenue are from tactics like this... Billions... They have over reached. Time to slap the hand.

LadyNalcarya

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

Well, there are laws that regulate gambling and as far as I know they have to pay extra taxes etc.
Companies that sell lootboxes do not pay these taxes and arent controlled by the law so there's a big difference.

Universe

Finally!
This was bound to happen sooner or later

LordSarevok

How the actual laws work on these things are a little fuzzy. I think we can all agree a random chance, with undisclosed odds, are bad for the consumer.

idk

Universe wrote: »

Finally!
This was bound to happen sooner or later

Again. Nothing real has happened yet.

Universe

idk wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Finally!
This was bound to happen sooner or later

Again. Nothing real has happened yet.

Something has happened.
The wheels are in motion

Kiralyn2000

Meh.

Not sure why people are celebrating the possibility of game devs having to come up with worse ways to get money from players.

Kanar

I don't care about crown crates. Everything in them except "radiant Apex" mounts is purchasable with gems right? Gems are a type of currency that you can buy more of (just buy crates and convert everything to gems).

I never buy crates and still have enough gems to buy what I want. Usually it's just a costume or style item because I hate the flashy mounts and don't use pets. Although that new rooster has me really tempted to drop 100 gems...

Synapsis123

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Meh.

Not sure why people are celebrating the possibility of game devs having to come up with worse ways to get money from players.

This. There's nothing wrong with offering some cosmetic items in loot boxes. It harms no one and doesn't hinder anyones gameplay.

Cpt_Teemo

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Meh.

Not sure why people are celebrating the possibility of game devs having to come up with worse ways to get money from players.

The prices of the crown only mounts will probably be around 1,500$ then doh.

Waseem

Turelus wrote: »

Let's wait and see what happens first before we start declaring victory.

The fact it's at least being investigated and looked into actively though is a nice start. Also remember that companies could always up the prices of items to offset the loss from loot boxes, victories could fast become defeats.

"victories could fast become defeats"
sorry but this argument is irrelevant with crown crates
buying a radiant mount for 20k crowns will remain cheaper than betting 1,000 $ for it, there is people with forum posts of paying 1,000 $ or more we all know it ^ ^

ScardyFox

Hope to God this happens so they have to focus on fixing crap that has been broken for 4 years (and counting) instead of nickel and dimming people to death. Its the only chance we will ever have for them to care about quality over the lootbox system.

ihazzit

Some of the articles and statements point to all loot boxes across the entire gaming sphere to be illegal, but that is factually incorrect. The issue is whether the loot boxes fall under gambling regulations or not as not all loot boxes do. Specific criteria have to be met for loot boxes to be considered gambling and currently, it seems, ESO loot boxes do not fall under gambling regulations for several reasons, one of which specifically being, "Loot boxes do not contravene the law if the in-game goods from the loot boxes are not transferable." Also, ESO crown crates were not part of the loot box ban that took place in the Netherlands earlier this year further meaning the crates are not illegal. For the crates to fall under the gambling regulations there would have to be change in how ESO delivers/sells the crates and/or a change in the regulations that would make any loot box in any game to be considered gambling. It also means the game does not fall under the pay-to-win definitions.

ascan7

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

casinos pay lot of taxes and minors aren't allowed into them.
you think that the same can happen to videogame without consequences?

Reistr_the_Unbroken

All of you are forgetting that Crown Crates are different than Blizzards loot boxes- in Blizzards loot boxes it was completely random, so you had no idea what you would get.

With the Crown Crates they give some for free during daily rewards or twitch drops, or you have to buy them- but at least they had the rewards on the page so you could actually see them, try them out and if you liked them then you could buy them with gems.

LiquidSchwartz

Good
Gambling crates should be illegal

Imperial_Voice

You guys arent just counting your chickens before theyve hatched, youre counting them any eggs have been laid. I would approach this with more than a healthy dose of cautious optimism if I were you.

DaveMoeDee

LordSarevok wrote: »

Runs wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Premature to think ESO will have to ditch crates. If anything, smart companies will make adjustments if needed. Cash shop will still be strong revenue regardless.

Not premature to think this. Belgium is charging EA with criminal misconduct for not complying. The fact that EA pushed harder has caused 15 other countries to follow suite.

How are EA's loot boxes sold?

Our crates are sold as crates full of consumables where you have a chance to get something of greater value in addition to the consumables that you are buying. 100% of the time you will get the consumables that you are technically paying for.

Matt Firor wrote:

The concept of Crown Crates is pretty easy: for a 400 crown purchase, you get a crate full of consumables as well as a chance at customization and convenience items. Crown Crates are obtainable exclusively in the Crown Store, and the consumables they contain are the same ones that you are probably already purchasing directly in the Crown Store. The difference is that you have a chance to get additional items in a Crown Crate – the same items that are on sale in the Crown Store. There is also a rarer chance to receive a discontinued limited-time-offer Crown Store item. The rarest items are Crown-Crate only items that we will cycle out every quarter or so for a new set.

If you do receive a special premium item in a Crate that you have already purchased from the Crown Store, instead of a duplicate, you will be given Crown Gems. These Crown Gems can then be spent on a (new) section of the Crown Store to purchase another item.

So, in a nutshell: you purchase a crate of consumables, and you get the chance for cool gear that was once on the store but was discontinued – and a really rare chance of unique customization and convenience items.

I am not sure on the specifics. As I have never played Ultimate Team. I did see a story of a guy who used the GDPR to find out he spent $16,000 USD on Ultimate team. And they classified him as a whale internally or something similar lol. I just think that in it's current format it is designed to take advantage of the player at every turn.

Edit: spelling

Businesses will always try to take advantage of people who are irresponsible with their money.

Juju_beans

If gaming companies are forced to remove loot boxes then they will just use other methods to generate revenue.
Increased prices in crown store, higher sub price, move to a pay to play only structure, etc.

They are a business and they need to make money.

idk

Juju_beans wrote: »

If gaming companies are forced to remove loot boxes then they will just use other methods to generate revenue.
Increased prices in crown store, higher sub price, move to a pay to play only structure, etc.

They are a business and they need to make money.

Exactly.

The first if is if anything actually comes of this new action that affects ESO crates.
The second if is if the crates can merely be tweaked and be in compliance.
After that it just comes down to how Zos would further monetize.

Any smart business is already looking at the next page just in case.

LordSarevok

idk wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

If gaming companies are forced to remove loot boxes then they will just use other methods to generate revenue.
Increased prices in crown store, higher sub price, move to a pay to play only structure, etc.

They are a business and they need to make money.

Exactly.

The first if is if anything actually comes of this new action that affects ESO crates.
The second if is if the crates can merely be tweaked and be in compliance.
After that it just comes down to how Zos would further monetize.

Any smart business is already looking at the next page just in case.

I am holding out hope that they really change the monetization. I am ready and willing to pay for items at a posted face value. If they are too high of a price, they won't move. This way of hiding the actual face value is crazy. As it stands, third party websites have tracked radiant apex mount drop rates to be sub 1% with thousands of examples. So an average to make it easy to translate from crowns, to real life money is needed. If you bought the crowns not on sale and fell into the average on attaining the mount, the estimated cost is USD $249.99 at today's crown prices to attain the average chance of getting the mount. I think most people would agree that $249.99 USD for a cosmetic is a bit much. They use these tactics so people will lose correlation with the real life money, to virtual currency, to gambling mechanics. It's the same reason casino's use chips instead of cash. It psychologically creates a disconnect.

dotme

Acrolas wrote: »

dotme wrote: »

I do not buy crates because that would be like walking into Old Navy, dropping $50 on a chance to win a pair of jeans, and walking out with 2 pairs of socks instead.

You do know there are dozens of clothing subscriptions that will send you random assortments of clothing every month, right? Generally the clothing has an MSRP in excess of the prorated subscription cost.

That's the lateral comparison you were looking for. Not the distortion you presented merely for the purpose of distortion.

Wrong. In the crown store, mounts cost a LOT more than potions. So each crate contains a different assortment, with different monetary values. My "distortion" illustrates the same concept in the real world.

Pack each crate with an equal amount of gems (extracted) or items (crown store crown values) and your lateral comparison would be legitimate.

JD2013

I am sure a lot of people would celebrate this. I do not buy crates, but the free ones are cool.

There are far worse ways for them to make money in the game. And I suspect we will see that if they are forced to remove crown crates.