Beginning of the end for Crown Crates.

Juju_beans

Starlock wrote: »

They aim at kids for the same reason the tobacco industry wants to aim at kids (and would if they could get away with it) - if you normalize a behavior for a generation, you addict them and they are profit sources for life. Even without aiming at kids, normalizing loot boxes is terrible. I retain faith that world governments will do the right thing here and strictly limit in the same way they do tobacco or gambling.

If they are aiming for kids then why not try to educate the parents on what goes on in games ?
If they are kids then they are getting their money to buy these boxes from their parents.

With that said though EA is the worst when it comes to loot boxes because they actually have game/character progression locked behind these rng loot boxes. IMO that's an entirely different issue from cosmetic loot boxes.

I've only played wow and eso which have microtransactions. Neither one hinders game/character progression behind microtransactions.

Jayman1000

Ilithyania wrote: »

sounds more like some eternal EU bureaucratic, political, corp, laywer stagmire.

prob ends up as a tiny warning label on the box, or a new paragraph on the Term of Service.

yes, EU is often terrible at dealing with things like this. Not always but often. One example is the ridiculous "Accept Cookie" warnings that we here in the EU have to click on every page we visit EVERY time we visit it, because the EU has decided we need to be informed and consent to the cookie thing... it's a terribly good example of bad EU bureaucracy. (and the reason why I have begun always using a US VPN, that way the cookie warnings dont pop up ever, which is really nice and a time saver too. Especially on mobile where the cookie accept text can fill the entire screen and you have to scroll down to find the accept cookie button).

However, lets hope the EU this time can do their job like they are supposed to and impose through law the change we need to make lootboxes transparent and much less gambly. The current system is very shady, you have no idea how many crates you need to buy to get the items you want. Alternatively if game companies want to insist on gambling mechanics force them to to actually follow the gambling laws instead of constantly circumventing them.

I would definitely prefer if companies themselves could moderate this, but it seems we need to force their hand.

.

Juju_beans

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Ilithyania wrote: »

sounds more like some eternal EU bureaucratic, political, corp, laywer stagmire.

prob ends up as a tiny warning label on the box, or a new paragraph on the Term of Service.

yes, EU is often terrible at dealing with things like this. Not always but often. One example is the ridiculous "Accept Cookie" warnings that we here in the EU have to click on every page we visit EVERY time we visit it, because the EU has decided we need to be informed and consent to the cookie thing... it's a terribly good example of bad EU bureaucracy. (and the reason why I have begun always using a US VPN, that way the cookie warnings dont pop up ever, which is really nice and a time saver too. Especially on mobile where the cookie accept text can fill the entire screen and you have to scroll down to find the accept cookie button).

However, lets hope the EU this time can do their job like they are supposed to and impose through law the change we need to make lootboxes transparent and much less gambly. The current system is very shady, you have no idea how many crates you need to buy to get the items you want. Alternatively if game companies want to insist on gambling mechanics force them to to actually follow the gambling laws instead of constantly circumventing them.

I would definitely prefer if companies themselves could moderate this, but it seems we need to force their hand.

.

So let's say they become more transparent. I don't think that will help much. Folks already know you only have a slight chance at winning something big. Putting 5% chance on the website isn't going to change their minds.

If you are an adult then only you can save yourself because you have to admit you have a problem and need help.
If these "gamblers" are minors though spending their parents' money then I'm not sure how any regulation could detect that and take action.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Juju_beans wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Ilithyania wrote: »

sounds more like some eternal EU bureaucratic, political, corp, laywer stagmire.

prob ends up as a tiny warning label on the box, or a new paragraph on the Term of Service.

yes, EU is often terrible at dealing with things like this. Not always but often. One example is the ridiculous "Accept Cookie" warnings that we here in the EU have to click on every page we visit EVERY time we visit it, because the EU has decided we need to be informed and consent to the cookie thing... it's a terribly good example of bad EU bureaucracy. (and the reason why I have begun always using a US VPN, that way the cookie warnings dont pop up ever, which is really nice and a time saver too. Especially on mobile where the cookie accept text can fill the entire screen and you have to scroll down to find the accept cookie button).

However, lets hope the EU this time can do their job like they are supposed to and impose through law the change we need to make lootboxes transparent and much less gambly. The current system is very shady, you have no idea how many crates you need to buy to get the items you want. Alternatively if game companies want to insist on gambling mechanics force them to to actually follow the gambling laws instead of constantly circumventing them.

I would definitely prefer if companies themselves could moderate this, but it seems we need to force their hand.

.

So let's say they become more transparent. I don't think that will help much. Folks already know you only have a slight chance at winning something big. Putting 5% chance on the website isn't going to change their minds.

If you are an adult then only you can save yourself because you have to admit you have a problem and need help.
If these "gamblers" are minors though spending their parents' money then I'm not sure how any regulation could detect that and take action.

I agree with this, it’s a bit concerning that people want a government official to help them with their own addiction.

Jayman1000

Juju_beans wrote: »

So let's say they become more transparent. I don't think that will help much. Folks already know you only have a slight chance at winning something big. Putting 5% chance on the website isn't going to change their minds.

If you are an adult then only you can save yourself because you have to admit you have a problem and need help.
If these "gamblers" are minors though spending their parents' money then I'm not sure how any regulation could detect that and take action.

If the gamblers are minors parents need to take action. It's unbelievable to me that there are parents that does not take an interest in their kids. It's the most important thing in the world in my opinion. But I don't think ESO is a game with content for minors specifically and the gambly lootboxes are not either, so that is not where I am seeing Zenimax doing anything wrong. The game is also rated 17 right?

However I do take issue with these gambling mechanics in games that are not gambling games. I don't think think gambling has any place in ESO. If this was a casino game I would think it appropriate. Also when you have a gambling mechanic you should follow gambling laws in my opinion, not circumvent them.

About transparency I'm convinced that it will always help against gambling addiction; not that I believe it is THE key to solve gambling addiction at all, but it does help a lot. In general transparency helps alot with figuring out anything really when you want to take control of what is going on.

It's not like ZOS could not make a much better system that would incorporate lootboxes into the actual game. There could be many ways. Here's a few examples:

By either paying additional crowns or doing specific content you could:
- improve the quality/quantity of lootboxes you get.
- lessen the price tag on lootboxes
- get access to different types of lootboxes

This would make lootboxes much more interesting. But as it is ZOS dont seem to have to do that, they can just have their slotmachine mechanic and rake in the funds from it. I dont think this simple slotmachine mechaning is a good addition to the game, it's not a satisfying way to earn costumes, mount etc for me. I dont have to play the game, I just have to either pay cash or login every day and click on the daily reward and then after the month is done I can roll the slotmachine rngesus and see what I get... and I can't do the slot crates in any other way, there's only one way to do it: it's a pure gambling mechanic. That is what I really dont liek about it.

idk

Androconium wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Let's wait and see what happens first before we start declaring victory.

The fact it's at least being investigated and looked into actively though is a nice start. Also remember that companies could always up the prices of items to offset the loss from loot boxes, victories could fast become defeats.

Also remember that you are on the Company's side.

Just because he is a community ambassador is far from being on the companies side and on multiple occasions he has called out Zos on changes they have made.

He has only spoken logic that nothing real has changed yet. Besides EA doing their crates very different that Zos opening up a huge cavern there is not a single country that has forced EA to change their ways yet.

So to suggest his logical recommendation of caution until we see what actually happens is somehow taking the side of Zos is without any shred of logic.

idk

Androconium wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zenimax, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

Bethesda is public from memory.
The fact that we don't really understand the corporate structure is a concern.

Bethesda is wholly owned by Zenimax and Zenimax is a private company. By definition that makes Bethesda private.

What is ironic is you edited out my comment that it helps to google things first. Maybe google for their stock or trading symbol.

MornaBaine

Starlock wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

lagrue wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

Slots and casinos are not aiming at children and under age minors.. Game companies are.

Funny because the vast majority of games out there with loot boxes are rated T or M games not intended for child audiences.

I have yet to see a kid's game offer this feature.

have you heard of Fifa? It's EA's big cash cow, one of the worst examples of predatory loot boxes, one of the main games driving different gambling commissions to directly address loot boxes, and it's rated E for Everyone. I think you need to be at least 11 or 12 to play the Ultimate Team Mode, which is where the loot boxes come in, but still. It's clearly aimed at kids - they're a huge portion of the player base, and EA is fleecing them.

That is so true. I was introduced of loot boxes because my son asked me for what ever year it was for the Ultimate Edition of Fifa. I asked why he said so he can get Fifa pack and might get a small chance to get a Rinaldo player. When I saw the price I said "NO FREAKING WAY". My son asked why and I explained to him that is gambling. I said we are basically paying what was it $50 more than the regular edition and with that money can also buy another game. Lucky for me he said "I rather have two games than one". He was young back then.

So it's true this is aimed at very young kids. I guess this is why I am so passionate about this topic. I have seen first hand what addiction, any kind of addiction can do and to aim this at kids boils me.

They aim at kids for the same reason the tobacco industry wants to aim at kids (and would if they could get away with it) - if you normalize a behavior for a generation, you addict them and they are profit sources for life. Even without aiming at kids, normalizing loot boxes is terrible. I retain faith that world governments will do the right thing here and strictly limit in the same way they do tobacco or gambling.

I honestly hope you are right. And while they are at it, I hope they will eventually look at the way psychology in general is used in a predatory fashion in the gaming industry.

GDOFWR420

This is stupid, it's up to the consumer to buy'em, if you have a gambling problem, it's just that, YOUR problem not the companies.

Nor is it their fault you have no willpower.

Kuwhar

JJBoomer wrote: »

why would anyone here DEFEND loot/premium crates such as this? There is literally no positive for the player. They are literally specifically designed to get your money that you would other wise save or invest wisely. I don't see how anyone in this community could defend their existence in any kind of valid way.

Because some of us believe is free enterprise and the ability for businesses to have the freedom to try different business models.

That's how innovation occurs, you don't have to like it and don't have to participate.

How do loot crates impact you negatively?

Loot crates don't impact me at all: I don't buy them.

Davor

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Lmao people are still calling Crown crates gambling? Logic at its finest. If it were truly gambling then let’s get rid of the gems that you can BUY THE STUFF WITH. In fact let’s get rid of the items you can buy from the crown crates too and see how people really cry that it’s gambling shall we?

It’s not gambling if you can still buy what you’re paying for with the gems people, unlike EA. Be damn glad you can buy what you want from the crates and not locked behind EA’s loot box pay wall where you don’t have that option.

From Dictionary.com

gambling
[gam-bling]
SynonymsExamplesWord Origin
See more synonyms for gambling on Thesaurus.com
noun
the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes.
the act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly:
If you don't back up your data, that's gambling.

So by dictionary.com and other sites this is what gambling means. Zenimax is getting away with it "legally" because they don't give us money in return. Yet still it is gambling. As Dicitionary.com gives as an example "don't back up your data" that is gambling as well.

So why are you saying Crown Crates is not gambling? Where is your logic? My logic is when I get a crown crate I am hoping to get an apex mount. So since it's not money I am going for I am taking a chance for OTHER STAKES. We all are taking a chance in hoping to get something good.

Also if we can buy stuff with gems, then how come we are not getting equal value? If something costs 5 gems, and I get that item, I only get one gem in return? So if I want to "buy" something with gems, I have to now GAMBLE with more crown crates and hope I don't get something that I can't convert to gems or I get what I wanted.

So please where is your logic?

menathradiel wrote: »

lagrue wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

Slots and casinos are not aiming at children and under age minors.. Game companies are.

Funny because the vast majority of games out there with loot boxes are rated T or M games not intended for child audiences.

I have yet to see a kid's game offer this feature.

Sims Freeplay (rated 10+) has "mystery boxes", which you open to get a random assortment of furniture items, where the more keys you use the rarer the items within it. Used to be that boxes were earned by doing weekly quests to get the keys that unlock them, now they also sell the keys directly in the store. It's basically the same mechanic as loot boxes except instead of buying the box you are buying the keys that open the box.

Funny thing. Who is the Publisher? EA. It seems EA is not in the video game business anymore but the gambling business now.

Juju_beans

MornaBaine wrote: »

Actually, it is not lame at all.

Google for gambling and substance abuse similarities. You may be surprised to find outr that our brain treats both quite similarly. Both also force the addict to need more mony to satiate the addiciton. Hence the drop in local crime rates when gambling is banned.

Well then those countries can be free to ban sales of the game.

Jayman1000

Kuwhar wrote: »

That's how innovation occurs

"innovation"

Jayman1000

lagrue wrote: »

You can research on google why these things don't actually qualify as gambling (it has something to do with garaunteed returns).

That's how gaming companies circumvent the gambling laws, so their lawyers can say in court "not actual gambling". But really... it is. And what happens when you keep circumventing the laws? Lawmakers have to tighten the laws.

PickleRick

Yo, I got a Senche of Scarlet Regret out of a free crate. Why can’t we have nice things?

DirkRavenclaw

I hope they dont end, Reason beeing, it is a Way for the Company to make Money, if they get banned, expect a mandatory Membership fee that will be higher then today, and with less Bonuses. If you dont like them, dont buy them, easy, i buy 4 to 8 monthly, if something nice is in them

lagrue

Davor wrote: »

lagrue wrote: »

Watchdog wrote: »

GDOFWR420 wrote: »

This is stupid, it's up to the consumer to buy'em, if you have a gambling problem, it's just that, YOUR problem not the companies.

Nor is it their fault you have no willpower.

Yep, same as with heroin. Still, it is not legal to simply sell it in any civilized country.

Heroin and Loot Crates aren't the same... however, I can think of a perfect example that is:

Trading Cards. They're the exact same concept as loot boxes.

You can research on google why these things don't actually qualify as gambling (it has something to do with garaunteed returns).

It's not.

It actually is, whether you value those consumables or not, there's a reason zos garauntees them and atleast one non-consumbale it's because the total values in the crates is equal to or greater than the amount spent on the crates lol. You can even look in the crown store under 'supplies' yourself and do some math... find out they generally make up ~60% of a crates value on their own.

Acrolas

I do agree the whole mini-game Pacrooti aspect should be trashed.

When you use gems on a crate, it should go into your inventory as a container, then you open the container and claim the contents. Trading for gems should be done entirely through your inventory interface.

The biggest mistake ZOS made was trying to make the crates feel more special than they really are. But as the old marketing director has been gone for a while so there's no compelling reason why the crate system can't be scaled back and contained entirely within the Crown Store interface.

Watchdog

Kuwhar wrote: »

Watchdog wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Watchdog wrote: »

GDOFWR420 wrote: »

This is stupid, it's up to the consumer to buy'em, if you have a gambling problem, it's just that, YOUR problem not the companies.

Nor is it their fault you have no willpower.

Yep, same as with heroin. Still, it is not legal to simply sell it in any civilized country.

That’s a pretty lame analogy

Actually, it is not lame at all.

Google for gambling and substance abuse similarities. You may be surprised to find outr that our brain treats both quite similarly. Both also force the addict to need more mony to satiate the addiciton. Hence the drop in local crime rates when gambling is banned.

Are you implying crown crates can lead to increased crime?

In my opinion, based on the information available to me, gambling addiction, which can be triggered by loot crates, often leads to criminal behaviour.

I am not saying ZOS is selling vouchers to increased crime. It is not that simple. I still consider it a shady practise at best, and I would support a ban. I would rather see the items for sale in the Crown Store directly, not for gems, requiring the gamble with the crates.

What I am afraid of a bit is that in case of such a ban, ZOS would simply disable the Crown Store for us in the affected countries, instead of changing their business practise.

Jayman1000

DirkRavenclaw wrote: »

if something nice is in them

If. How do you know something nice will be in them?

.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Ok so if crown crates are bad then should we ban the millions of blind boxes and mystery bags that are legally being sold too? Does that count as “gambling”? No, it doesn’t.

Watchdog

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Ok so if crown crates are bad then should we ban the millions of blind boxes and mystery bags that are legally being sold too? Does that count as “gambling”? No, it doesn’t.

Actually, that is kind of what the EU countries are considering now.

Are loot boxes gambling? If so, should they be regulated the same way? Can the companies selling them ensure no kids get to them? Wouldn't it be easier to simply ban them?

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Watchdog wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Ok so if crown crates are bad then should we ban the millions of blind boxes and mystery bags that are legally being sold too? Does that count as “gambling”? No, it doesn’t.

Actually, that is kind of what the EU countries are considering now.

Are loot boxes gambling? If so, should they be regulated the same way? Can the companies selling them ensure no kids get to them? Wouldn't it be easier to simply ban them?

You’re missing the point. I wasn’t talking about EA’s crappy loot boxes or anything related to EU in the original post. I was referring to the Funko POP! Blind bags and the others. Bling bags and Mystery boxes are not in a game. They’re actually sold in stores.

Watchdog

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Watchdog wrote: »

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Ok so if crown crates are bad then should we ban the millions of blind boxes and mystery bags that are legally being sold too? Does that count as “gambling”? No, it doesn’t.

Actually, that is kind of what the EU countries are considering now.

Are loot boxes gambling? If so, should they be regulated the same way? Can the companies selling them ensure no kids get to them? Wouldn't it be easier to simply ban them?

You’re missing the point. I wasn’t talking about EA’s crappy loot boxes or anything related to EU in the original post. I was referring to the Funko POP! Blind bags and the others. Bling bags and Mystery boxes are not in a game. They’re actually sold in stores.

I see. I am sorry, my mistake then. I cannot recall any such things sold in my country. I thought you were talking about virtual items too.

Androconium

Woeler wrote: »

And then they simply made the items not available at all in those countries. The end. Well played. Unless the countries with the major markets join in, this is going harm us more than it will harm them.

Androconium wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

But what they do is fund the developer to provide us with excellent content updates.

Prove this with evidence.

Someone else pointed out that ZeniMax Media and its subsidiaries are all privately-traded companies.
Under US law they are not required to publicise any of their financial operations (correct me if I'm wrong on this).

With that in mind, how would YOU know how Zenimax Media, or any of it's subsidiaries, fund their software developments?
When you say "developer" which of Zenimax Media's subsidiary companies are you referring to?

Indeed what a ridiculously unreasonable assumption that the money going into a company via trade is used to pay their employees. Oh the absurdity. Nice strawman.

It is unreasonable to assume that money from Crown Crates (which is what we are talking about here) is used to fund ongoing development. Without the transparency of annual corporate statements, it is unreasonable to assume anything.

The strawman here is how you worded your response: Money via trade to pay their employees. This is vastly different to Money from Crown Crates supports development costs.

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Androconium

idk wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zenimax, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

Bethesda is public from memory.
The fact that we don't really understand the corporate structure is a concern.

Bethesda is wholly owned by Zenimax and Zenimax is a private company. By definition that makes Bethesda private.

What is ironic is you edited out my comment that it helps to google things first. Maybe google for their stock or trading symbol.

"from memory"...

What is ironic, is that someone else pointed me in the right direction and I did hunt hunt around via google after that.
Zenimax Media is the parent company.
FROM WHAT I CAN TELL, all the subsidiaries are private.

This means very few people will ever know what happens from an accounting perspective.
On that basis, people should stop speculating, as there simply is no evidence.

(typo)

Androconium

idk wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

ZOS is a private company? So they are a parent company then. I am sure Zenimax is a publicly traded company. If I am wrong thank you for the clarification @Juju_beans. As for where I get my stats from? Common sense? After all Zenimax is a company that wants to make money. They sue other companies to make money. They also make stuff in the crown store for as little as possible and sell it as much as the market will bear. So if they can sell one item that takes say a week to make and sell it for the same cost of the base game that would mean they would do more of this if it sold. So since they are not sold and are in crates and or time exclusive tells me that they don't sell.

So common sense. Does common sense say this the other way? If so, I don't see it. Not saying I am wrong but it's my opinion which I forgot to say. Sorry for that and listing it as fact. I apologize for it.


@Pheefs about the duckies at a carnival, thing is you have to earn it by your own competence. The loot boxes are like an instant scratch ticket hoping to get the biggest prize.

If anything should be compared to then that would be card collections. Baseball/hockey cards Magic the Gathering. That is like buying a loot box with no money being returned from the company selling them.

Thing is I never herd of companies who do this prey on kids for gambling. Maybe I am wrong all this time and this is/was a bad practice after all. So it if is, then that doesn't mean it's right.

We play video games. Companies make video games. Companies shouldn't be making video games in order to make money from gambling.

So in the end what are we playing? IS ESO a video game or is ESO a video game made in order for Zenimax Online Studios to make money from gambling? After all people keep saying the DLC and Expansons is not enough to keep ESO alive.

Your wrong. It helps to google things first.

Zenimax, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

You're wrong. It helps to google things first.
Zenimax Media, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

Oh, the Irony.

Korah_Eaglecry

Androconium wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

But what they do is fund the developer to provide us with excellent content updates.

Prove this with evidence.

Someone else pointed out that ZeniMax Media and its subsidiaries are all privately-traded companies.
Under US law they are not required to publicise any of their financial operations (correct me if I'm wrong on this).

With that in mind, how would YOU know how Zenimax Media, or any of it's subsidiaries, fund their software developments?
When you say "developer" which of Zenimax Media's subsidiary companies are you referring to?

They cant prove it. Never will. Because the truth is all of those lootboxes are straight profit. Companies dont function the way this person thinks they do. A company like ZOS gets a budget, that budget is earmarked for certain things and they can either go under budget, over budget or meet their budget exactly. But the idea that something that has such little investment but has such massive returns is funding anything is just absolutely out of touch with how money flows in a company.

Androconium

Glurin wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

Juju_beans wrote: »

I've never liked the thought of "We're the government and we're here to help".
Not everyone is so irresponsible that they need the government to intervene to protect them from themselves.

It's not a case of being protected from yourself.

It's a case of being protected from predatory marketing.

In other words, "We're the government and we're here to help protect you from yourself."

Yes! Those are other words! Not what I said.