Beginning of the end for Crown Crates.

usmguy1234

This probably explains why eu servers get so little attention from zenimax.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

!!! I need to go pester all the people running for office this fall where they stand on this, excuse me! *runs off*

Krayl

Davor wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

its funny to me that people are celebrating this.

The only reason ZOS is able to release DLC and Expansions is because they are making money from crown crates and the store.

If you believe that in this day and age a game company can afford to carry a staff capable of continuous content development and still have no required monthly fee to rely on, you're going to be sadly mistaken.

This concept that the crown store is some greedy zero-cost money pit for ZOS is sad/funny.

So you are saying that ZOS is a company that makes a video game so people can gamble then, instead of a company that makes video games. If the DLC and expansions can't sustain ESO then ESO should be shut down. Perfect example given as to why ZOS is not a gaming company but a gambling company.

I am saying that the games industry is pretty hosed and companies need to make money to keep their doors open. Maybe you don't like the idea of a 'crown store' or 'random item boxes', but believe it or not some people use and enjoy them and no one is forced to buy them. They aren't providing competitive advantages outside of consumables you can create in the game if you'd like. They are completely benign and provide revenue for the company.

If you don't understand my point of view just look at Telltale games - today they laid off basically the whole company and have essentially shuttered their doors minus a small team remaining to fulfill obligations to partners.

Telltale games - who basically makes nothing but fantastic, well produced, well reviewed games - who launched several generally well received products this year can't even afford to exist.

So - cool, yeah by your logic, all game companies should be shut down instead of trying to find ways to achieve sustained income to keep their products afloat and their employees paid. good one. jenniferlawrence.gif.

Androconium

idk wrote: »

Zenimax, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

Bethesda is public from memory.
The fact that we don't really understand the corporate structure is a concern.

leepalmer95

Krayl wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

its funny to me that people are celebrating this.

The only reason ZOS is able to release DLC and Expansions is because they are making money from crown crates and the store.

If you believe that in this day and age a game company can afford to carry a staff capable of continuous content development and still have no required monthly fee to rely on, you're going to be sadly mistaken.

This concept that the crown store is some greedy zero-cost money pit for ZOS is sad/funny.

So you are saying that ZOS is a company that makes a video game so people can gamble then, instead of a company that makes video games. If the DLC and expansions can't sustain ESO then ESO should be shut down. Perfect example given as to why ZOS is not a gaming company but a gambling company.

I am saying that the games industry is pretty hosed and companies need to make money to keep their doors open. Maybe you don't like the idea of a 'crown store' or 'random item boxes', but believe it or not some people use and enjoy them and no one is forced to buy them. They aren't providing competitive advantages outside of consumables you can create in the game if you'd like. They are completely benign and provide revenue for the company.

If you don't understand my point of view just look at Telltale games - today they laid off basically the whole company and have essentially shuttered their doors minus a small team remaining to fulfill obligations to partners.

Telltale games - who basically makes nothing but fantastic, well produced, well reviewed games - who launched several generally well received products this year can't even afford to exist.

So - cool, yeah by your logic, all game companies should be shut down instead of trying to find ways to achieve sustained income to keep their products afloat and their employees paid. good one. jenniferlawrence.gif.

Companies that make good games and dlcs are making lots of money off them, they don't need to rely on loot boxes.

Fortnite, the witcher etc.. all successful non loot box games.


ESO has costumes/ mounts priced higher than dlc's, maybe thats a good indicator on where to effort is being focused.

Juju_beans

Androconium wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zenimax, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

Bethesda is public from memory.
The fact that we don't really understand the corporate structure is a concern.

Bethesda is a subsidiary of Zenimax.

All of them are private.

Here's some info so you can understand the corporate structure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZeniMax_Media

Rain_Greyraven

won't matter if they stay or go the entitles will find something else to cry about.

Krayl

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

its funny to me that people are celebrating this.

The only reason ZOS is able to release DLC and Expansions is because they are making money from crown crates and the store.

If you believe that in this day and age a game company can afford to carry a staff capable of continuous content development and still have no required monthly fee to rely on, you're going to be sadly mistaken.

This concept that the crown store is some greedy zero-cost money pit for ZOS is sad/funny.

So you are saying that ZOS is a company that makes a video game so people can gamble then, instead of a company that makes video games. If the DLC and expansions can't sustain ESO then ESO should be shut down. Perfect example given as to why ZOS is not a gaming company but a gambling company.

I am saying that the games industry is pretty hosed and companies need to make money to keep their doors open. Maybe you don't like the idea of a 'crown store' or 'random item boxes', but believe it or not some people use and enjoy them and no one is forced to buy them. They aren't providing competitive advantages outside of consumables you can create in the game if you'd like. They are completely benign and provide revenue for the company.

If you don't understand my point of view just look at Telltale games - today they laid off basically the whole company and have essentially shuttered their doors minus a small team remaining to fulfill obligations to partners.

Telltale games - who basically makes nothing but fantastic, well produced, well reviewed games - who launched several generally well received products this year can't even afford to exist.

So - cool, yeah by your logic, all game companies should be shut down instead of trying to find ways to achieve sustained income to keep their products afloat and their employees paid. good one. jenniferlawrence.gif.

Companies that make good games and dlcs are making lots of money off them, they don't need to rely on loot boxes.

Fortnite, the witcher etc.. all successful non loot box games.


ESO has costumes/ mounts priced higher than dlc's, maybe thats a good indicator on where to effort is being focused.

Fortnite is a pretty poor example. Epic creates the architecture that many other games pay to use. That architecture also includes a store component to it's editor, and fortnite has an item shop. However you want to portray it, a RNG loot create is in essence just a store item. Same diff. Again, no one is being forced to buy any loot boxes. All this is to say they have many other sources of revenue coming in. CD Projekt nearly went bankrupt between witcher 1 and 2. They also create their own engine, and aren't regularly releasing content updates, "chapters" and their DLC is streamlined with their game production schedule to be included in that budget, not an unknown moving forward for an online game.

I'm really not sure why people complain about the crown store or crates. You're not forced to use it. I understand some people would argue it has a negative impact on the game, perhaps they are right - but if it didn't exist, neither would the game. Somehow the staff and servers and tech and dev all has to be paid for, and selling base games and DLCs does not pay for employing a full company to continually update a game even when the updates cost money.

Ri_Khan

The gaming industry as a whole is topping $100 billion a year in revenue. This is all I need to know about loot crates.

Oh yeah, and gambling destroys peoples lives.

FUN!!!

Skwor

LoL absolutly nothing will come of this.
First it is Belgium, no one cares. Second it is the EU you can't get no more toothless than the EU. Third only petty and jealous attitudes even care about loot crates purely from envy, again no one else cares.

Davor

UrQuan wrote: »

lagrue wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

Slots and casinos are not aiming at children and under age minors.. Game companies are.

Funny because the vast majority of games out there with loot boxes are rated T or M games not intended for child audiences.

I have yet to see a kid's game offer this feature.

have you heard of Fifa? It's EA's big cash cow, one of the worst examples of predatory loot boxes, one of the main games driving different gambling commissions to directly address loot boxes, and it's rated E for Everyone. I think you need to be at least 11 or 12 to play the Ultimate Team Mode, which is where the loot boxes come in, but still. It's clearly aimed at kids - they're a huge portion of the player base, and EA is fleecing them.

That is so true. I was introduced of loot boxes because my son asked me for what ever year it was for the Ultimate Edition of Fifa. I asked why he said so he can get Fifa pack and might get a small chance to get a Rinaldo player. When I saw the price I said "NO FREAKING WAY". My son asked why and I explained to him that is gambling. I said we are basically paying what was it $50 more than the regular edition and with that money can also buy another game. Lucky for me he said "I rather have two games than one". He was young back then.

So it's true this is aimed at very young kids. I guess this is why I am so passionate about this topic. I have seen first hand what addiction, any kind of addiction can do and to aim this at kids boils me.

Jayman1000

Turelus wrote: »

Let's wait and see what happens first before we start declaring victory.

The fact it's at least being investigated and looked into actively though is a nice start. Also remember that companies could always up the prices of items to offset the loss from loot boxes, victories could fast become defeats.

Yes but would that be so bad? They wont be upping their prices more than they can actually sell their items. Meaning you'll get transparency on one hand, and self regulated prices. Sounds like a win-win.

Davor

Krayl wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

Krayl wrote: »

its funny to me that people are celebrating this.

The only reason ZOS is able to release DLC and Expansions is because they are making money from crown crates and the store.

If you believe that in this day and age a game company can afford to carry a staff capable of continuous content development and still have no required monthly fee to rely on, you're going to be sadly mistaken.

This concept that the crown store is some greedy zero-cost money pit for ZOS is sad/funny.

So you are saying that ZOS is a company that makes a video game so people can gamble then, instead of a company that makes video games. If the DLC and expansions can't sustain ESO then ESO should be shut down. Perfect example given as to why ZOS is not a gaming company but a gambling company.

I am saying that the games industry is pretty hosed and companies need to make money to keep their doors open. Maybe you don't like the idea of a 'crown store' or 'random item boxes', but believe it or not some people use and enjoy them and no one is forced to buy them. They aren't providing competitive advantages outside of consumables you can create in the game if you'd like. They are completely benign and provide revenue for the company.

If you don't understand my point of view just look at Telltale games - today they laid off basically the whole company and have essentially shuttered their doors minus a small team remaining to fulfill obligations to partners.

Telltale games - who basically makes nothing but fantastic, well produced, well reviewed games - who launched several generally well received products this year can't even afford to exist.

Very well said here. I am sure I see your point. You are saying if we don't have Loot Boxes in ESO the great people at Zenimax will loose their jobs? That is a good point. Thing is, why is Zenimax going the "easy" way and not actually making a proper product that people would want to play and keep spending money on it?

If their business is making a video game MMO, then why not are they making the best MMO possible and not rely on gambling?

So - cool, yeah by your logic, all game companies should be shut down instead of trying to find ways to achieve sustained income to keep their products afloat and their employees paid. good one. jenniferlawrence.gif.

I guess that would be logical. If a company can't make money through a video game then it needs to close down sadly.

Well the question I ask is and let's turn this around, What is the purpose of the company? It's to make money. How are they making money? By your logic Zenimax is in the business of gambling and not video games with ESO.

If a company is suppose to make video games, they should be making video games. If they can't sustain because sales are not good enough then the company sadly needs to do other things then. That is the point I am trying to make. Do I want companies to close down and people loose their jobs? Heck no. This has happened to me. I know what it's like. That is life though.

Korah_Eaglecry

Nothing is really going to change for us here in ESO. At most ZOS will need to advertise that the game contains lootboxes and reaffirm the age rating of the game.

Jayman1000

Krayl wrote: »

I'm really not sure why people complain about the crown store or crates. You're not forced to use it. I understand some people would argue it has a negative impact on the game, perhaps they are right - but if it didn't exist, neither would the game. Somehow the staff and servers and tech and dev all has to be paid for, and selling base games and DLCs does not pay for employing a full company to continually update a game even when the updates cost money.

People complain about lootboxes because it is 1) gambling. 2) non-transparent gambling. They could improve these two major pain in the butt factors so that it stopped resembling gambling and I dont know maybe make it feel more like an actual game and not a slot machine. they could incorporate the those lootboxes with stuff to do in the game itself. So why don't they? Seems they have to be forced by law before they are going to get off their fat profiteering butts.

Rukia541

The game needs those ridiculous items in its shop , the whales fund this game , that's how it works in B2P / F2P. Otherwise this game would be dead as a door nail and they'd probably require sub. I think it's awesome we can choose between sub or not, if I can't afford something on the shop, oh well. If someone wants to gamble and waste their money on boxes, hey more power to you, thanks for supporting the game.

Sure loot boxes are silly and blatant shady practice, but people buy them for some reason lol. $$$$$$$$$$

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Lmao people are still calling Crown crates gambling? Logic at its finest. If it were truly gambling then let’s get rid of the gems that you can BUY THE STUFF WITH. In fact let’s get rid of the items you can buy from the crown crates too and see how people really cry that it’s gambling shall we?

It’s not gambling if you can still buy what you’re paying for with the gems people, unlike EA. Be damn glad you can buy what you want from the crates and not locked behind EA’s loot box pay wall where you don’t have that option.

Knowledge

This is one of those things that you don't like but you shouldn't want to go away.

You don't have to buy loot boxes and they give you no competitive advantage.

But what they do is fund the developer to provide us with excellent content updates.

Kalante

Pay to win doesn't work in the western world. Asia in the other hand... it does work but they also gotta post the odds as it is required by law.

Androconium

Knowledge wrote: »

But what they do is fund the developer to provide us with excellent content updates.

Prove this with evidence.

Someone else pointed out that ZeniMax Media and its subsidiaries are all privately-traded companies.
Under US law they are not required to publicise any of their financial operations (correct me if I'm wrong on this).

With that in mind, how would YOU know how Zenimax Media, or any of it's subsidiaries, fund their software developments?
When you say "developer" which of Zenimax Media's subsidiary companies are you referring to?

Androconium

Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »

Lmao people are still calling Crown crates gambling? Logic at its finest. If it were truly gambling then let’s get rid of the gems that you can BUY THE STUFF WITH. In fact let’s get rid of the items you can buy from the crown crates too and see how people really cry that it’s gambling shall we?

It’s not gambling if you can still buy what you’re paying for with the gems people, unlike EA. Be damn glad you can buy what you want from the crates and not locked behind EA’s loot box pay wall where you don’t have that option.

How much do Gems cost?

menathradiel

lagrue wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

Slots and casinos are not aiming at children and under age minors.. Game companies are.

Funny because the vast majority of games out there with loot boxes are rated T or M games not intended for child audiences.

I have yet to see a kid's game offer this feature.

Sims Freeplay (rated 10+) has "mystery boxes", which you open to get a random assortment of furniture items, where the more keys you use the rarer the items within it. Used to be that boxes were earned by doing weekly quests to get the keys that unlock them, now they also sell the keys directly in the store. It's basically the same mechanic as loot boxes except instead of buying the box you are buying the keys that open the box.

Ilithyania

sounds more like some eternal EU bureaucratic, political, corp, laywer stagmire.

prob ends up as a tiny warning label on the box, or a new paragraph on the Term of Service.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

menathradiel wrote: »

lagrue wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

Slots and casinos are not aiming at children and under age minors.. Game companies are.

Funny because the vast majority of games out there with loot boxes are rated T or M games not intended for child audiences.

I have yet to see a kid's game offer this feature.

Sims Freeplay (rated 10+) has "mystery boxes", which you open to get a random assortment of furniture items, where the more keys you use the rarer the items within it. Used to be that boxes were earned by doing weekly quests to get the keys that unlock them, now they also sell the keys directly in the store. It's basically the same mechanic as loot boxes except instead of buying the box you are buying the keys that open the box.

There’s also the sims mobile with the same concept, but it’s heirloom boxes- there’s a daily free one but the rest you have to buy with tickets

MornaBaine

While it's a hopeful sign the fact is that most likely nothing is going to happen outside of some tweaking of verbiage that will let gaming companies skirt any eventual legislation that may pass. And even that will take years to come to fruition. If it ever does. Sadly, long gone are the days when companies took pride in their product and worked hard to court their customers' approval.

Bam_Bam

If any wants to know how much they've spent on the game, just go to your account and check your purchase history.....

Woeler

And then they simply made the items not available at all in those countries. The end. Well played. Unless the countries with the major markets join in, this is going harm us more than it will harm them.

Androconium wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

But what they do is fund the developer to provide us with excellent content updates.

Prove this with evidence.

Someone else pointed out that ZeniMax Media and its subsidiaries are all privately-traded companies.
Under US law they are not required to publicise any of their financial operations (correct me if I'm wrong on this).

With that in mind, how would YOU know how Zenimax Media, or any of it's subsidiaries, fund their software developments?
When you say "developer" which of Zenimax Media's subsidiary companies are you referring to?

Indeed what a ridiculously unreasonable assumption that the money going into a company via trade is used to pay their employees. Oh the absurdity. Nice strawman.

mb10

Being from the UK, the Gambling Commission CEO being at the forum and commenting on game gambling is actually kind of a big deal

randomkeyhits

Davor wrote: »

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

You guys arent just counting your chickens before theyve hatched, youre counting them any eggs have been laid. I would approach this with more than a healthy dose of cautious optimism if I were you.

So true. By law at least in Ontario, Canada this is not gambling since it doesn't give out real money. So what will have to happen and this can take years if not decades (from politicians stalling) a new definition of gambling will have to be made. This is why it falls outside of lots of government districts.

This is a start. All it does is give light to it. Now we need people to call on CNN so this can be showed to everyone and then maybe parents who don't know and think their kid is only playing a soccer/football, football, baseball, hockey game will take a double look now.

After all this can be a public nightmare. I am sure CNN will use the word gambling it will make great headlines.

EA making minors gamble and receive millions of dollars of minor's. Great headline. Someone in the US please call CNN or sent an email or how ever it's done in this age.

Oh its gambling all right, by the dictionary definition, if you'd have said

"By law at least in Ontario, Canada this is not licensed gambling"

you'd have been more accurate. Same here in the UK, the loot boxes are currently not considered to have to be licensed gambling, because there is no real cash value at the end of it.

Personally I consider paying cash to enter a game of chance the only requirement to fall under licensed gambling but the authorities will never have the balls to go that far.

My only issue with the loot boxes is the lack of clarity over the chances of the drops. Laying out cash for a blind gamble is something I dislike as when it comes to money I never trust companies.

Starlock

Davor wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

lagrue wrote: »

DanteYoda wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

they can't ban the gambling in games, that way they should close all types of casinos or slot games. They will just add one more row at the game's description: "contains gambling"

Slots and casinos are not aiming at children and under age minors.. Game companies are.

Funny because the vast majority of games out there with loot boxes are rated T or M games not intended for child audiences.

I have yet to see a kid's game offer this feature.

have you heard of Fifa? It's EA's big cash cow, one of the worst examples of predatory loot boxes, one of the main games driving different gambling commissions to directly address loot boxes, and it's rated E for Everyone. I think you need to be at least 11 or 12 to play the Ultimate Team Mode, which is where the loot boxes come in, but still. It's clearly aimed at kids - they're a huge portion of the player base, and EA is fleecing them.

That is so true. I was introduced of loot boxes because my son asked me for what ever year it was for the Ultimate Edition of Fifa. I asked why he said so he can get Fifa pack and might get a small chance to get a Rinaldo player. When I saw the price I said "NO FREAKING WAY". My son asked why and I explained to him that is gambling. I said we are basically paying what was it $50 more than the regular edition and with that money can also buy another game. Lucky for me he said "I rather have two games than one". He was young back then.

So it's true this is aimed at very young kids. I guess this is why I am so passionate about this topic. I have seen first hand what addiction, any kind of addiction can do and to aim this at kids boils me.

They aim at kids for the same reason the tobacco industry wants to aim at kids (and would if they could get away with it) - if you normalize a behavior for a generation, you addict them and they are profit sources for life. Even without aiming at kids, normalizing loot boxes is terrible. I retain faith that world governments will do the right thing here and strictly limit in the same way they do tobacco or gambling.