Beginning of the end for Crown Crates.

Shantu

Personally I hope this effort is effective. I've never spent a dime on Crown Crates. Paying real money for a randomly generated return IS gambling, pure and simple. Sorry ZOS, but to profit from those addicted to this kind of "entertainment" is just plain wrong.

Sometimes I think game developers get so wrapped up in RGN bull crap they lose perspective.

idrankyourbeer

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello there,

Recently we've had to remove several posts for some inappropriate content, keep in mind that discussion of illegal substances is against the Forum Rules. Please be sure to keep these rules in mind to prevent action on one's own account or thread closure.

Thank you for understanding.

is discussion of illegal gambling permitted?

Hippie4927

idrankyourbeer wrote: »

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello there,

Recently we've had to remove several posts for some inappropriate content, keep in mind that discussion of illegal substances is against the Forum Rules. Please be sure to keep these rules in mind to prevent action on one's own account or thread closure.

Thank you for understanding.

is discussion of illegal gambling permitted?

Gambling is not illegal where ZOS is located.

Hokiewa

Hippie4927 wrote: »

idrankyourbeer wrote: »

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello there,

Recently we've had to remove several posts for some inappropriate content, keep in mind that discussion of illegal substances is against the Forum Rules. Please be sure to keep these rules in mind to prevent action on one's own account or thread closure.

Thank you for understanding.

is discussion of illegal gambling permitted?

Gambling is not illegal where ZOS is located.

Smoothies aren't considered gambling in the u.s. under current law

ThumbtackJake

Hippie4927 wrote: »

idrankyourbeer wrote: »

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello there,

Recently we've had to remove several posts for some inappropriate content, keep in mind that discussion of illegal substances is against the Forum Rules. Please be sure to keep these rules in mind to prevent action on one's own account or thread closure.

Thank you for understanding.

is discussion of illegal gambling permitted?

Gambling is not illegal where ZOS is located.

What if you're underage?

Glurin

ThumbtackJake wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

idrankyourbeer wrote: »

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello there,

Recently we've had to remove several posts for some inappropriate content, keep in mind that discussion of illegal substances is against the Forum Rules. Please be sure to keep these rules in mind to prevent action on one's own account or thread closure.

Thank you for understanding.

is discussion of illegal gambling permitted?

Gambling is not illegal where ZOS is located.

What if you're underage?

The internet would be a pretty boring place if you went and outright banned things that might be accessed by someone who might be considered underage somewhere in the world.

AbysmalGhul

Are we still going on about this? Go fight for hunger in a 3rd world country or free the dolphins from plastic rings

Androconium

AbysmalGhul wrote: »

Are we still going on about this? Go fight for hunger in a 3rd world country or free the dolphins from plastic rings

First world countries are those that are aligned with the USA.
Second world countries are those that are aligned with the USSR.
Third world countries are those that are aligned to neither the USA or USSR.

Yes, I am aware that USSR doesn't exist anymore; that is the point.

Glurin wrote: »

The internet would be a pretty boring place if you went and outright banned things that might be accessed by someone who might be considered underage somewhere in the world.

What you write is drivel.

nimander99

David Trujillo, good man! I've actually met and spoken to him (I have family in Wa St politics so I get to mingle with my "betters" on occasion) about loot crates in games and that they are, in essence, gambling. Which is only allowed on Rezervations in Washington.

Glad to see someone from Wa isn't doing smothering <insert your own word> for once, heh heh.

Publishers will begin lobbying very HARD against this in the U.S. The U.S has no "Gamer Rights" whereas Eu does. Honestly ill keep my free speech and 2nd Amendment over protection from loot boxes... As much as I loathe loot boxes.

MornaBaine

My account it littered with mounts, pets and costumes/other cosmetics I don't want. And that's off free crates for the most part. Yet I can get not one single thing I DO want in exchange for them. Not even the entirely terrible gem exchange. So completely ASIDE from the fact that the crates are a predatory practice in psychological manipulation that we should ALL be against being subjected to they are simply a terrible value and are extremely anti-customer. I can't understand why ANYONE would defend them.

SickDuck

I don’t see any attempt to ban crates in the future. The main goal seem to be to treat them as gambling and enforce rules applied accordingly. One concern is gambling should not be available to kids... but ESO is already PEGI18. Now you may need to provide proof of age which will make purchases more difficult but not impossible. Otherwise not sure what else would change, the format is not illegal and I don’t think there are rules about pricing or odds as long as they are transparent to the consumer.

Ri_Khan

MornaBaine wrote: »

...I can't understand why ANYONE would defend them.

The only people that defend gambling like this are those that're addicted to it at some level or those that're profiting from it.

Viscous119

This is only relevant to the EU players. US players will still be buying crown crates because they can.

idk

Androconium wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

ZOS is a private company? So they are a parent company then. I am sure Zenimax is a publicly traded company. If I am wrong thank you for the clarification @Juju_beans. As for where I get my stats from? Common sense? After all Zenimax is a company that wants to make money. They sue other companies to make money. They also make stuff in the crown store for as little as possible and sell it as much as the market will bear. So if they can sell one item that takes say a week to make and sell it for the same cost of the base game that would mean they would do more of this if it sold. So since they are not sold and are in crates and or time exclusive tells me that they don't sell.

So common sense. Does common sense say this the other way? If so, I don't see it. Not saying I am wrong but it's my opinion which I forgot to say. Sorry for that and listing it as fact. I apologize for it.


@Pheefs about the duckies at a carnival, thing is you have to earn it by your own competence. The loot boxes are like an instant scratch ticket hoping to get the biggest prize.

If anything should be compared to then that would be card collections. Baseball/hockey cards Magic the Gathering. That is like buying a loot box with no money being returned from the company selling them.

Thing is I never herd of companies who do this prey on kids for gambling. Maybe I am wrong all this time and this is/was a bad practice after all. So it if is, then that doesn't mean it's right.

We play video games. Companies make video games. Companies shouldn't be making video games in order to make money from gambling.

So in the end what are we playing? IS ESO a video game or is ESO a video game made in order for Zenimax Online Studios to make money from gambling? After all people keep saying the DLC and Expansons is not enough to keep ESO alive.

Your wrong. It helps to google things first.

Zenimax, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

You're wrong. It helps to google things first.
Zenimax Media, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

Oh, the Irony.

@Androconium

The irony is you quote a statement that clearly states Zenimax Media, the parent company, is private and you comment the same thing and somehow say I am wrong.

Might want to read what you quoted again. Very odd.

So it is clear, the quote below is where this convo started since Ando thought Bethesda was public.

Androconium wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zenimax, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

Bethesda is public from memory.
The fact that we don't really understand the corporate structure is a concern.

Wifeaggro13

Turelus wrote: »

Let's wait and see what happens first before we start declaring victory.

The fact it's at least being investigated and looked into actively though is a nice start. Also remember that companies could always up the prices of items to offset the loss from loot boxes, victories could fast become defeats.

Greed will always win out. Publishers and devs will fight this until it is not a fiscal benefit. then they will relent, ESo will sell skins for the cost of a game and mounts for thrice that. i know it will never happen but the benefits of B2P have are now just a gimic to bilk more money then a subscription model provided even with healthy populations paying. the problem is that us as a population are worse then developers when it comes to exploitation. I remember the days ofearly EQ1 and the ebay items when everything unbound.i think i made a couple grand. the issue is greed will always win no matter the consequences to the customer.

Doctordarkspawn

Hippie4927 wrote: »

idrankyourbeer wrote: »

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello there,

Recently we've had to remove several posts for some inappropriate content, keep in mind that discussion of illegal substances is against the Forum Rules. Please be sure to keep these rules in mind to prevent action on one's own account or thread closure.

Thank you for understanding.

is discussion of illegal gambling permitted?

Gambling is not illegal where ZOS is located.

But they sell in an international market.

Most companies, if the laws go up, will go ahed and cut the practice as they would be selling to such a low individual market that it wouldn't be worth it.

Wifeaggro13

idk wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Premature to think ESO will have to ditch crates. If anything, smart companies will make adjustments if needed. Cash shop will still be strong revenue regardless.

Not premature to think this. Belgium is charging EA with criminal misconduct for not complying. The fact that EA pushed harder has caused 15 other countries to follow suite.

It’s is nothing but premature conjecture.

Belgium is only one country
Charges are meaningless. It’s the end result, which can be substantial or absolutely nothing, that matter.

Any arm chair attorney can tell you that much. Basically your counting your chickens before they hatch.

It may be premature conjecture of the outcome on the criminal prosecution. Yet it is not when the country has passed laws and all other gaming companies have already complied. It is not conjecture in to say in that in Belgium loot box's are illegal, and will not exist in their current format. All other companies have made loot box's earn able in game.

It’s very much premature conjecture. Laws hold little value until tested in courts. That is a fact.

Your also assuming the nature of EA boxes are the same as what we have here or that a small tweak will not solve any issue.

So yes, premature conjecture.

I did state in the quoted text that they will not exist in their current format. If they tweak the box's to be better for the player, it is a small victory. And hopefully will push for more control.

It’s still an assumption of what the end result will be behind the premature conjecture that anything will change here.

there will be no end result publishers will fight this until its not a fiscal benefit to do so. then they will change their model and charge what they think it would have cost you to gamble for that item.the difference is that it will alienate the dummy that thinks he has a shot at that mount or skin with 10 crates. they will likely charge 150$ for that premium mount and a third of that for a skin. truthfully video games have gotten worse for all the technology improvements . graphics are leaps and bounds ahead but for the most part this genre has been gutted and rebuilt to look less like a video game and much much more like a casino with horrible RNG and gear design that looks like a statiscal slot machine . i long for the days were the complexity was in the mechanics , character progression and game systems . not the the how many ways can we road block you in your journey to become a hero

Wifeaggro13

MornaBaine wrote: »

My account it littered with mounts, pets and costumes/other cosmetics I don't want. And that's off free crates for the most part. Yet I can get not one single thing I DO want in exchange for them. Not even the entirely terrible gem exchange. So completely ASIDE from the fact that the crates are a predatory practice in psychological manipulation that we should ALL be against being subjected to they are simply a terrible value and are extremely anti-customer. I can't understand why ANYONE would defend them.

i agree the bait and switch was very subtle. it started with the "were going B2P to relent to evil Microsoft not letting us charge a sub-base because our customers are against it" and yes the x boxers were very vocal and claimed poor house. then the crafting bag became a benefit to subscribers, jesus that was a base game feature. then the crown store " It will only be cosmetics and xp poitions it will have no in game benefits" now you can count several things in the store that will streamline your character on its way through the game. add in some of the cosmetics and mounts are only attainable through the crates and are not attainable in game rewards the bait and switch is complete. now the very same population that screamed about the sub base are spending bundles of money in the crown store like crack heads looking for a fix.

The main issue i think is young people are now getting addicted to this garbage my own children bug me all the time for v bucks for fortnight and won't let them spend green dollars for digital eye candy screw that. they won't be playing that damn game in 3 months another one will replace it. but a good many younger people who are not old enough to drive are spending buckets of money on this garbage and developers are preying on them thas wrong, very wrong. Make a good game with longevity instead and quit acting like organized crime. looking for ways to separate weak psychologies from their hard earned money.

Lake

Look at Guild Wars 2 just did. All they did was ban Belgian players from purchasing. The end.

Source: https://massivelyop.com/2018/09/24/guild-wars-2-belgian-players-report-gem-buying-block-plus-more-on-the-bubble-tea-bans/

Multiple Redditors and forumgoers from the country have been reporting that they are no longer able to buy gems, the game’s cash shop currency.

MMO players will recall that Belgium is one of the countries cracking down on lockboxes, threatening multiple AAA game studios with legal action if they do not comply with their gambling laws. Valve and Blizzard made changes to their games to make lockboxes unbuyable in the affected regions; EA is apparently planning to fight (and lose) in court.While ArenaNet was not among the list of companies threatened, it’d be reasonable to assume the studio is protecting itself all the same.

Juju_beans

Lake wrote: »

Look at Guild Wars 2 just did. All they did was ban Belgian players from purchasing. The end.

Source: https://massivelyop.com/2018/09/24/guild-wars-2-belgian-players-report-gem-buying-block-plus-more-on-the-bubble-tea-bans/

Multiple Redditors and forumgoers from the country have been reporting that they are no longer able to buy gems, the game’s cash shop currency.

MMO players will recall that Belgium is one of the countries cracking down on lockboxes, threatening multiple AAA game studios with legal action if they do not comply with their gambling laws. Valve and Blizzard made changes to their games to make lockboxes unbuyable in the affected regions; EA is apparently planning to fight (and lose) in court.While ArenaNet was not among the list of companies threatened, it’d be reasonable to assume the studio is protecting itself all the same.

Well sure..if it's only one or two countries then they can just ban them in that country based on laws passed.
Achieves the same goal though..the government saved those people from gambling addiction.

Just need to get every other country enacting the same law as Belgium.

srfrogg23

What will most likely happen is loot boxes will be determined to be a form of gambling. The ESRB, and similar ratings boards, will probably start labeling anything anything gambling related as Adult Only (AO) because gambling is illegal for minors.

So, the game will go from M to AO on the box, but the loot boxes will probably stay.

Odovacar

Nobody needs anything from the crown store to be successful at ESO. We choose to buy certain items because they are of interest to us. ESO has no P2W issues.

Jayman1000

nimander99 wrote: »

David Trujillo, good man! I've actually met and spoken to him (I have family in Wa St politics so I get to mingle with my "betters" on occasion) about loot crates in games and that they are, in essence, gambling. Which is only allowed on Rezervations in Washington.

Glad to see someone from Wa isn't doing smothering <insert your own word> for once, heh heh.

Publishers will begin lobbying very HARD against this in the U.S. The U.S has no "Gamer Rights" whereas Eu does. Honestly ill keep my free speech and 2nd Amendment over protection from loot boxes... As much as I loathe loot boxes.

I hate lootboxes too (at least in the gambling form we have come to know them), but im REALLY happy we have no such thing as a 2nd amendment here in my european country. Gun crime is very very low. We have some gangs that sometimes shoot someone from rival gangs and occasionally bystanders gets hit, but compared to the US it's extremely rare. Even so, by our standards it is very startling for us when just 1 shot is fired somewhere, it's always mentioned in the national news when it happens.

Now about free speech it may surprise you that there are some big differences between EU countries, in my country we can say almost anything, as long as it is not something that that encourages or celebrates committing crimes or is outright racist. Interestingly it is social media giants like Facebook, a US company, that is the worst offender when it comes to oppressing our free speech here in europe, since Facebook has become the de facto place for us citizens and the politicians to conduct our democratic debate, but it is VERY common for Facebook to censor or ban posts or facebook accounts for things that are not racist or illegal in any way, in many many cases it's not even close. But because they are a private company they can oppress free speech on their platform however they like. And they are very biased against right wing opinions, while being majorly tolerant about hateful opinions from the left. That is a HUGE problem for democracy.

Androconium

idk wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Davor wrote: »

ZOS is a private company? So they are a parent company then. I am sure Zenimax is a publicly traded company. If I am wrong thank you for the clarification @Juju_beans. As for where I get my stats from? Common sense? After all Zenimax is a company that wants to make money. They sue other companies to make money. They also make stuff in the crown store for as little as possible and sell it as much as the market will bear. So if they can sell one item that takes say a week to make and sell it for the same cost of the base game that would mean they would do more of this if it sold. So since they are not sold and are in crates and or time exclusive tells me that they don't sell.

So common sense. Does common sense say this the other way? If so, I don't see it. Not saying I am wrong but it's my opinion which I forgot to say. Sorry for that and listing it as fact. I apologize for it.


@Pheefs about the duckies at a carnival, thing is you have to earn it by your own competence. The loot boxes are like an instant scratch ticket hoping to get the biggest prize.

If anything should be compared to then that would be card collections. Baseball/hockey cards Magic the Gathering. That is like buying a loot box with no money being returned from the company selling them.

Thing is I never herd of companies who do this prey on kids for gambling. Maybe I am wrong all this time and this is/was a bad practice after all. So it if is, then that doesn't mean it's right.

We play video games. Companies make video games. Companies shouldn't be making video games in order to make money from gambling.

So in the end what are we playing? IS ESO a video game or is ESO a video game made in order for Zenimax Online Studios to make money from gambling? After all people keep saying the DLC and Expansons is not enough to keep ESO alive.

Your wrong. It helps to google things first.

Zenimax, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

You're wrong. It helps to google things first.
Zenimax Media, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

Oh, the Irony.

@Androconium

The irony is you quote a statement that clearly states Zenimax Media, the parent company, is private and you comment the same thing and somehow say I am wrong.

Might want to read what you quoted again. Very odd.

So it is clear, the quote below is where this convo started since Ando thought Bethesda was public.

Androconium wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Zenimax, the parent company, is private. It’s not publicly traded.

Bethesda is public from memory.
The fact that we don't really understand the corporate structure is a concern.

I quoted the entire thread as a separate post, as you complained that the context of the conversation was lost when I edited out, what I thought at the time, was irrelevant.
In this discussion, a lot of people, including myself, are using the wrong company names. You said Zenimax; I corrected that to Zenimax Media. I still think that this is the correct title of the parent company, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes. I used irony to point how easy it is for anyone, including myself, to get things wrong.

This is the point of democratic, free speech. Often we think that we're right, when in fact we need others to point out that we are not.

Zenimax Media believes that it is OK to lure unsuspecting players by the chance of winning a desirable reward, This would be entirely OK if the players were using in-game 'gold' to purchase the Crown Crates. The point of this debate is that people, including myself, have used real cash to buy and play the Crown Crate game of chance, where the odds are seriously stacked against them. Some people are aware of this and do it for FUN, despite the expense.

The problem being debated at an international level now, is how many people are potentially being negatively affected by this predatory practice. It may be entirely legal today, that doesn't mean that it should remain so.

Androconium

MornaBaine wrote: »

My account it littered with mounts, pets and costumes/other cosmetics I don't want. And that's off free crates for the most part. Yet I can get not one single thing I DO want in exchange for them. Not even the entirely terrible gem exchange. So completely ASIDE from the fact that the crates are a predatory practice in psychological manipulation that we should ALL be against being subjected to they are simply a terrible value and are extremely anti-customer. I can't understand why ANYONE would defend them.

Exactly.

Jayman1000

Odovacar wrote: »

Nobody needs anything from the crown store to be successful at ESO. We choose to buy certain items because they are of interest to us. ESO has no P2W issues.

That's not what is being discussed here, the topic is not about lootboxes being p2w or not. It's about the gambling mechanic they represent and how ZOS is circumventing gambling laws (huge parts of the entire gaming industry is doing that btw). Since the industry does not seem capable of regulating themselves, but continues to introduce gambling into their games, it has attracted international attention from lawmakers.

Jayman1000

LordSarevok wrote: »

Added a written article for those who don't want a video, and a different video from Jim Sterling.


https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/17/15-countries-including-uk-join-forces-to-tackle-loot-boxes-7952253/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_GVCtkFXy8

I love Jim. This quote is spot on: "if you erect a system in your video game that has all of the hallmarks of gambling and uses all of the techniques of gambling, eventually someones gonna come along and think "oh... that looks like gambling. Lets find out if that's gambling."

baltic1284

For me I don't not mind the system where you can buy tings in game itself. I do however do not like the fact that the gaming industry forces you to spend un heard of amounts of money just to get one item you actually want and fill you inventory with a hundred stuff you don't need or want just to force more money out of you.
If the company needs money just look at games that successful at not using a gambling system of any kind to get money like Farm Sim. Or even blizzard till they changed there minds and added it and now are willing to remove it. I would not have a problem giving this company money from me if I could just buy what I want and move on, If they spent the time they take to make gambling in game for an item the hours invested into making the item and such into fixing the problems ESO has and that has been reported multiple times then they would have a much larger player base investing money into the game for items they want.
Issue is if you ask a player for money on a system that has all the hall marks of gambling and they spend ie 30 dollars buy a bunch of crates and get everything except what they want, you just deterred a player from spending money into your product right then and there. If they spent that same money and got exactly what they wanted put right you just made a customer that will most likely spend money back into the product you made for another item they want, that is called a win, win solution you make money from the customer and they got what they wanted.
Instead the company turns to gambling in the hopes they can pound more money from a turnip and hope that they can make loads of money in the short term and lose customers but they are sure that turnip has money. Instead of coming here looking at reports and ides and focusing on that, the bugs that have been reported multiple times still not fixed, loads of issue with the game like loot versus input reward on items, take guild stores many of theme are drying up way I actually asked and guess what input material they want to sell isn't there. A solution was given over 3 years ago before Guild stores where even added knowing full well things would head that way and it was never read by a official and was actually dismissed by a mod.
All that did was send the wrong message to community requiring the company to turn to gambling in the hopes players would fork that kinda cash out for hope that then turns back to the beginning of the post and repeats itself over and over and over.

Davor

Jayman1000 wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

Added a written article for those who don't want a video, and a different video from Jim Sterling.


https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/17/15-countries-including-uk-join-forces-to-tackle-loot-boxes-7952253/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_GVCtkFXy8

I love Jim. This quote is spot on: "if you erect a system in your video game that has all of the hallmarks of gambling and uses all of the techniques of gambling, eventually someones gonna come along and think "oh... that looks like gambling. Lets find out if that's gambling."

Walks like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck. So true.

Now that GW2 stopped selling what ever their currency is in Belgium, wonder how long Zenimax will. Just goes to show you that the company that makes or produces GW2 is just as sleazy as Zenimax and EA and other companies now. Will not give up gambling until it's too late.

Come on people didn't anyone contact CNN? This can be huge, "EA preys on kids for gambling". We can also throw in Zenimax's name as well. Great story to be told. Does CNN not want the story or are they being bought out to keep quiet? Hmmm, where did my tin foil hat go?

Davor

Jayman1000 wrote: »

LordSarevok wrote: »

Added a written article for those who don't want a video, and a different video from Jim Sterling.


https://metro.co.uk/2018/09/17/15-countries-including-uk-join-forces-to-tackle-loot-boxes-7952253/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_GVCtkFXy8

I love Jim. This quote is spot on: "if you erect a system in your video game that has all of the hallmarks of gambling and uses all of the techniques of gambling, eventually someones gonna come along and think "oh... that looks like gambling. Lets find out if that's gambling."

Walks like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck. So true.

Now that GW2 stopped selling what ever their currency is in Belgium, wonder how long Zenimax will. Just goes to show you that the company that makes or produces GW2 is just as sleazy as Zenimax and EA and other companies now. Will not give up gambling until it's too late.

Come on people didn't anyone contact CNN? This can be huge, "EA preys on kids for gambling". We can also throw in Zenimax's name as well. Great story to be told. Does CNN not want the story or are they being bought out to keep quiet? Hmmm, where did my tin foil hat go?