[MATH] PvP Defensive Set Comparison (Impreg, Brass, Pariah, Riposte, + more)
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paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »Since riposte is a debuffs on enemy players, there's no reason to think it has diminishing returns with your own % damage reduction
There might be some interaction with the debuffed player's damage boosts I suppose
No reason except the extensive testing that has been perform around it and other sources of damage mitigation. I would suggest you read my thread on it.1 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
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Nice! My tests were just directly with the UI and it would update immediately, this definitely makes pariah BiS defensive set on builds that can fit it on both bars.
There must be a 4 month old echo in here @Lexxypwns
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
Anything that produces maim would fall into this math
Riposte and duroks - though two totally different buffs - fall into the same concept of 1bar usable debuff sets that are a little too effective due to their very high duration from debuffs.
A slight adjustment in duration to not guarantee 100% uptime from only 1 bar would be welcomed imo.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
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Riposte and duroks - though two totally different buffs - fall into the same concept of 1bar usable debuff sets that are a little too effective due to their very high duration from debuffs.
A slight adjustment in duration to not guarantee 100% uptime from only 1 bar would be welcomed imo.
It would be hard to find a duration that would not guarantee a 100% uptime. I would say that most players have above or roughly a 50% crit chance, so every other hit, give or take should be a crit. So the only way you could make it so that the uptime was not 100% is to make it
a) Not refresh-able while duration is still active b) Make duration only 2-4 seconds.
And the first bit needs to be that it can't refresh on the same target during that targets debuff duration, otherwise it would break the set cause it would cause it to only work on one target at a time which would make it useless. Second bit would force you to have it on both bars practically to ensure up time. Now I don't know if the first point is currently true or not but to make sure its less likely to have 100% up time you would have to seriously nerf that set to the ground.
However in doing so you would actually produce a counter to the Riposte builds, low crit high base damage builds, builds that specifically don't spec for crits. Would be interesting, cause right now even those builds are easily debuffed by Riposte, cause even if you don't spec for it you will crit sometime with a 15s window and then you are screwed. It would be an interesting thing to see for sure. I mean I have already seen some non crit builds that try to circumvent the PvP defensive Meta of high crit resistance with having no crit buffs but a lot more base damage buffs. Not really sure how effective they actually are but I've seen it, never tried it myself but, eh, its a thought.0 -
Trashs1✭✭✭
this! and the year is almost over so u might geht this award
just got confused now.
my mageplar uses atm trans on snb backbar. after the new calculations, would it be better now using wizards riposte?
although i like the magreg on transmutation a lot!Edited by Trashs1 on December 11, 2017 8:57AMDolche des Königs (DDK); EuPC, DC, Sotha Sil,0 -
Taylor_MB✭✭✭✭✭
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this! and the year is almost over so u might geht this award
just got confused now.
my mageplar uses atm trans on snb backbar. after the new calculations, would it be better now using wizards riposte?
although i like the magreg on transmutation a lot!
Stand by, doing further testing to get accurate formula with CP.
If your build benefits more from that 2nd recovery set bonus of Transmutation, then the mitigation difference is not worth running out of magicka for.
PvP Defensive Set Comparison
Firestarter MagDK 1vX - build and gamplay!
LagPlar Ranged Lag Proof(ish) Magplar - build and gamplay!
ShadowGaurd MagBlade Group Utility Tank - build and gamplay!
Oncoming Storm No-CP 11.6k Ward MagSorc - build and gamplay!
My YouTube Chanel3 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »
It would be hard to find a duration that would not guarantee a 100% uptime. I would say that most players have above or roughly a 50% crit chance, so every other hit, give or take should be a crit. So the only way you could make it so that the uptime was not 100% is to make it
a) Not refresh-able while duration is still active b) Make duration only 2-4 seconds.
And the first bit needs to be that it can't refresh on the same target during that targets debuff duration, otherwise it would break the set cause it would cause it to only work on one target at a time which would make it useless. Second bit would force you to have it on both bars practically to ensure up time. Now I don't know if the first point is currently true or not but to make sure its less likely to have 100% up time you would have to seriously nerf that set to the ground.
However in doing so you would actually produce a counter to the Riposte builds, low crit high base damage builds, builds that specifically don't spec for crits. Would be interesting, cause right now even those builds are easily debuffed by Riposte, cause even if you don't spec for it you will crit sometime with a 15s window and then you are screwed. It would be an interesting thing to see for sure. I mean I have already seen some non crit builds that try to circumvent the PvP defensive Meta of high crit resistance with having no crit buffs but a lot more base damage buffs. Not really sure how effective they actually are but I've seen it, never tried it myself but, eh, its a thought.
Ofc the other way would be to buff offensive sets in comparison to defensive ones. Currently there is very little incentive to go for offensive options as sustain + defense usually yields better results.
I think something like 4 or 5 seconds would be perfect for riposte.
For durok it would be a lot harder bc that set has a cooldown and it would loose a lot of vaibility for groups if the number of targets were to be reduced. Maybe remove CD but reduce duration (which would mirror the old fasalla somewhat) - i don´t really know.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Fubar8✭✭I really appreciate what you've done. I see you spent your hours on it. Community should be thankful for that but This game does not deserve such thing. Just an opinion.1 -
Minno✭✭✭✭✭
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Stand by, doing further testing to get accurate formula with CP.
If your build benefits more from that 2nd recovery set bonus of Transmutation, then the mitigation difference is not worth running out of magicka for.
This is exactly how to view it, @Trashs1.
If you need mag sustain, go trans. Otherwise go reposte.Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual2 -
WillhelmBlack✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Very juicy! Best thread 2017.
Confirmed what I already thought but nice to see it all in front of me and go back to.PC EU1 -
Trashs1✭✭✭i know its offtopic but since u are a theorycrafting god @Taylor_MB
there is also a really interesting discusion going on here (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/384420/stam-warden-maul-or-greatsword#latest) about
2h sword vs 2h maul vs 2h axe
since it seems axe bleed is strong but ticks the first time after 2 secs and if u refresh the dot u have to wait another 2 secs. its quite difficult to figuere out whats the bis weapon on a stamtoon with and without mayor fracture available.
maybe you did some investigations on that topic too?Dolche des Königs (DDK); EuPC, DC, Sotha Sil,1 -
Taylor_MB✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Trashs1 Regarding StamDen I have not looked into that at all so am unqualified to draw any conclusions (still have not got around to ranking up a Warden, so many things I want to do :P). Will say this though, if people can't decide which is better then more than likely all the options are so similar it doesn't matter.
Regarding further Wizard Riposte testing and specifically your previous question, I have a few insights;
• Even with Wizard's Riposte getting diminished by champion points, it still out performs Transmutation (as per previous posted calculations). The difference is quite minimal though, so you won't be losing much mitigation if you need the regeneration from Trans.
• Wizard's Riposte easily out performs Transmutation in no-CP.
• I've changed tab 13 of the spreadsheet to "13 - WR" and unlocked the Wizard's Riposte mitigation cell so you can play around with different values (through testing I have not been able to figure out exact formula, more on that below). In my testing I couldn't get the mitigation of WR to drop below ~11%, so that was the baseline I made the above recommendations.Further Wizard's Riposte Testing
For this testing:
• 0 CP unless stated in the table.
• 0 skill points into passives that increase or reduce damage.
• Physical damage (punching) was used to test so that putting CP into the blue trees didn't increase max magicka and thus damage.
• The only thing that changes between "Base Damage" and "WR Damage" is the proc'ing of WR (minor maim).
• "WR Mitigation" is the actual damage mitigated by WR.
• All other rows are my attempts to find the correct formula (mixed success, as you can see).
• NOTE: ZoS rounds everything down, so when a result is only 1 difference from calculated, assume that is the spreadsheet correctly rounding up but ZoS rounding down.
Conclusions
• ZoS has some funked up damage calculations.
• Minor maim is diminished by CP and resistances, but not to a catastrophic degree.
• I can theoretically calculate damage when the variables are kept to a minimum, but despite my best efforts I do not have the skill to figure out an all encompassing and 100% accurate formula.
Nonetheless we can still draw some general conclusions regarding set comparison. Which defensive set to chose when they are approximately equal depends on what other stats you require (magicka regeneration or HP for example).
CP
Impregnable > Wizard's Riposte ~= Transmutation
No-CP
Impregnable ~= Wizard's Riposte > Transmutation
Unless anyone else out there has some insight into ZoS's messed up calculations I'm probably going to cease my investigation. I don't like the idea of leaving an analysis without 100% accurate results, but for the purpose of set comparison, I have to accept that close enough is good enough. Thanks everyone for your interest in this! Despite the occasionally convoluted and frustrating math ZoS employs, it was good fun and I thoroughly enjoyed doing it! Time to go PvP!PvP Defensive Set Comparison
Firestarter MagDK 1vX - build and gamplay!
LagPlar Ranged Lag Proof(ish) Magplar - build and gamplay!
ShadowGaurd MagBlade Group Utility Tank - build and gamplay!
Oncoming Storm No-CP 11.6k Ward MagSorc - build and gamplay!
My YouTube Chanel3 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Awesome work! Bookmarked!
Also small edit @Taylor_MB you listed “Craftable” as a Con for Impregnable Armor1 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Awesome work! Bookmarked!
Also small edit @Taylor_MB you listed “Craftable” as a Con for Impregnable Armor
Well for some crafting is viewed as a con cause it means that you have to choose that over other crafted sets and you can't use Jewelry for it. Maybe that was why?
That or it was a mistake like you said. 0 -
Taylor_MB✭✭✭✭✭
✭Impreg not crafted so it would've been a mistake.
Buuuutttttt I don't see where I said it was craftable? Do I fail at proof reading?
All craftable sets I put that down as pro and con, easier to acquire but no jewellery.PvP Defensive Set Comparison
Firestarter MagDK 1vX - build and gamplay!
LagPlar Ranged Lag Proof(ish) Magplar - build and gamplay!
ShadowGaurd MagBlade Group Utility Tank - build and gamplay!
Oncoming Storm No-CP 11.6k Ward MagSorc - build and gamplay!
My YouTube Chanel0 -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Impreg not crafted so it would've been a mistake.
Buuuutttttt I don't see where I said it was craftable? Do I fail at proof reading?
All craftable sets I put that down as pro and con, easier to acquire but no jewellery.
oh lol, damn I read that wrong and though fortified
Its too damn early in the morning. Sorry, I can't brain today, I have the dumb. 0 -
Exodium✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
The moment you start purging Riposte is the moment you realize how worthless doing so is.
It goes like this: attack, Riposte proc, purge, Riposte proc...
Purge...
Proc...
Pur..PROC!
Trust me, save your mag, it's uptime is nearly 100% (unless you start attacking someone else)
True but as a magplar, I tend to use wiz ripose on my backbar and unfortunately it has a fair bit of downtime vsing other magplars I've realised because if they cleanse it, you need to force yourself to go on your backbar again so that it can reproc.
I'm definitely liking transmutation more I'm realising, The 2-3 set mag recovery is crucial because you get it even when youre in the front bar, (the 4piece mag recovery bonus from wizards you'll never see unless again, you're on backbar unfortunately.) Also, I have 3k crit resistance without 1 point in the Crit resist passive, allowing me to distribute my CP points into other stats like quick recovery, spell resistance, iron clad etc.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
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True but as a magplar, I tend to use wiz ripose on my backbar and unfortunately it has a fair bit of downtime vsing other magplars I've realised because if they cleanse it, you need to force yourself to go on your backbar again so that it can reproc.
I'm definitely liking transmutation more I'm realising, The 2-3 set mag recovery is crucial because you get it even when youre in the front bar, (the 4piece mag recovery bonus from wizards you'll never see unless again, you're on backbar unfortunately.) Also, I have 3k crit resistance without 1 point in the Crit resist passive, allowing me to distribute my CP points into other stats like quick recovery, spell resistance, iron clad etc.
My experience with Riposte was that I wasn't on my back bar long enough to proc it consistently in combat, and because I could only have a backbar set, and I don't have a complete set of Durok's or lich yet, Transmutation became my only real choice, and quite frankly it probably is the best choice given my build.0 -
Exodium✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »
My experience with Riposte was that I wasn't on my back bar long enough to proc it consistently in combat, and because I could only have a backbar set, and I don't have a complete set of Durok's or lich yet, Transmutation became my only real choice, and quite frankly it probably is the best choice given my build.
Yep agreed. From the perspective of a magplar I think trans is the best option for backbar especially with our constantly ticking extended ritual to guarantee instant proc. I just feel that the 250 mag recovery you get regardless of whether you're on the front or back bar is too invaluable to pass up.0 -
Kartalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭With trans you could front bar a maelstrom, asylum, or master staff. You only lose the 4th piece spell crit bonus on trans.- PC/NA
- Karllotta, AD Magplar, AR 50
- Hatched-In-Glacier, DC Magden, AR 44
- Miraliys, EP Warden, AR 37
- Lyranais, EP Magsorc, AR 37
- Milthalas, EP Magblade, AR 36
- Kartalin, AD Stamblade, AR 35
- Miralys, AD Magsorc, AR 35
- Kallenna, EP Magcro, AR 34
- Lemon Party - Meanest Girls - Tertiary Meat - @ Kartalin - Youtube
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Minno✭✭✭✭✭
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Yep agreed. From the perspective of a magplar I think trans is the best option for backbar especially with our constantly ticking extended ritual to guarantee instant proc. I just feel that the 250 mag recovery you get regardless of whether you're on the front or back bar is too invaluable to pass up.
That and there is a more strict condition with wizard that requires you to take a crit hit, which might be in the form of a huge burst and an when templar will Purge it off.
At least trans, will proc on the smallest of health so you can take self DMG before a fight and no one can remove the proc mid fight. Plus the Regen is better.
Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
- Guild-lead for MV
- Filthy Casual0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
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That and there is a more strict condition with wizard that requires you to take a crit hit, which might be in the form of a huge burst and an when templar will Purge it off.
At least trans, will proc on the smallest of health so you can take self DMG before a fight and no one can remove the proc mid fight. Plus the Regen is better.
If you back bar Riposte, you're right, purge becomes effective. If Riposte is on both bars, or at least the more used bar, Purge becomes worthless.0 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just want to say thank you for making this thread, really good information.Edited by Domander on December 25, 2017 9:05AM0 -
scipionumatia✭✭✭✭Scipio Numantia Red guard Nightblade PvP- AD
Scipio Asiaticus Khajiit Nightblade (CRAFTER/DPS) PvE- EP
Altmer Nightblade PvP- EP
Fueoculto Breton Templar (DPS) PvE- EP
Rasoculto Orc Dragon Knight PvP- EP
Caethus Argonian Templar (HEAL) PvE- EP
Vale Oso Nord Sorc (DPS) PvE- AD
Sir-Galahad-the-pure Altmer Sorc (DPS) PvE- EP
Scipionumantine Imperial Templar PvP- EP
Un-bearable Imperial Warden PVP- EP
Vale Bear Altmer Warden PvP- EP
Baits-All-Zergs Argonian Dragon knight PVP- DC1 -
Ulfgarde✭✭✭✭✭An intriguing study. Thank you for the work here as it is highly informative of some very dubious calculations by ZOS, especially the info on WR.• ZoS has some funked up damage calculations.
Yes, it's unfortunate, but having clarification in this mess is indeed insightful.Very athletic eso player
PC EU0 -
Malamar1229✭✭✭✭✭
✭So it’s safe to say that trans is superior to riposte on non-shield dependent builds in CP pvp on any spec that already has access to minor maim(NB, DK), is going to block often(Templar, DK, Warden), or has access to minor/major protection(Templar)? Because that’s been my understanding all along, I just want to make sure I’m interpreting this correctly
Yes that's how I read it too1 -
Exodium✭✭✭✭0
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Taylor_MB✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Lexxypwns
@Malamar1229
@Exodium
These broad questions are really hard to answer definitively because there are so many variables in your own build and in your typical opponents build. Which is why I made the spreadsheet, put in your inputs and it will guide you to the most effective defensive set available. In specific regards to Wizard's Riposte vs Transmutation, Wizard's Riposte still comes out on top in most circumstances.
So as we've discovered, for whatever reason WR does not give 15% damage reduction in CP PvP. From the testing I posted above, the more CP sources of percentage mitigation that are present, the less percentage value WR negates. Here is some quick additional testing I did with two properly kitted out builds in CP and no-CP.
Testing with properly kitted builds:
*Major Protection doesn't reduce WR effectiveness, so any Templar's running Restoring Focus, you are in the clear also.
Previous testing for easy reference:Spoiler
So the new testing was just done with lightening staff light attack, so WR still gives a respectable ~12.9% damage reduction with CP. However, as you can see from the previous testing, when an attack is effected by more CP, the actual damage reduction WR gives can drop to as low as ~11%. So subbing this new percentage into the calculations instead of 15% (you can do this yourself in tab "13 - WR vs Trans" of the spreadsheet), we can get a more accurate comparison.
NOTE: I encourage you again to do this yourself, even though base critical resistance, critical chance and critical damage modifier are the only variables that effect comparisons between these two sets, their range is still very large. Also, WR mitigates different skills to a different percentage based on what CP they are effected by, so a static comparison like this will never give you the full picture.
Base Crit Resist = 0 | WR = 15%Spoiler
Base Crit Resist = 0 | WR = 12.5%Spoiler
Base Crit Resist = 0 | WR = 10%Spoiler
Base Crit Resist = 0 | WR = 7.5%Spoiler
Base Crit Resist = 2403 | WR = 15%Spoiler
Base Crit Resist = 2403 | WR = 12.5%Spoiler
Base Crit Resist = 2403 | WR = 10%Spoiler
Base Crit Resist = 2403 | WR = 7.5%Spoiler
Conclusion:
So even with Wizard Riposte actually negating as little as 10% in CP PvP, it still beats out Transmutation against opponents with less then 70% critical chance. In no-CP PvP where WR still does 14-15% mitigation, it is superior to Trans in all circumstances. Of course you still have to take into account that Nightblades will regularly have significantly higher critical chance due to Shadowy Disguise, Mechanical Acuity is a set that exists and Transmutations double regeneration bonuses are very significant.
Edited by Taylor_MB on December 29, 2017 2:01AMPvP Defensive Set Comparison
Firestarter MagDK 1vX - build and gamplay!
LagPlar Ranged Lag Proof(ish) Magplar - build and gamplay!
ShadowGaurd MagBlade Group Utility Tank - build and gamplay!
Oncoming Storm No-CP 11.6k Ward MagSorc - build and gamplay!
My YouTube Chanel0 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭Interesting indeed...
So in circumstances where Riposte is only negating 10% of the incoming damage (compared to Combat Physician in a 1v1 scenario), a Riposte wearer would have withstand 41k damage every 6 seconds simply to equal the amount of damage negation a Combat Physician wearer can negate in an equal time span...
Over the course of a full minute, a Riposte wearer would have to withstand 410k damage simply to negate an equal amount of damage a Combat Physician wearer can negate in the same span of time...
With diminishing returns (due to CP's) being a negative to Riposte, I think its safe to say that Combat Physician is clearly superior to Riposte in a 1v1 scenario...Edited by TheDoomsdayMonster on December 29, 2017 6:25AMUnyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJS2ZHe_u8