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[MATH] PvP Defensive Set Comparison (Impreg, Brass, Pariah, Riposte, + more)

  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    wait @Taylor_MB there isn’t any testing here? I’m fairly certain you DO NOT see the full 15% from riposte(or any other maim/protection effects), including on shields(they get CP based %resists already). Wouldn’t it be much more accurate to min/max your CP(there’s only a small variety of ways to assign them that are viable, either you need unchained or you don’t) and test riposte to get a real mitigation % from it?
    Edited by Lexxypwns on December 6, 2017 4:13PM
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  • Kartalin
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    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    wait @Taylor_MB there isn’t any testing here? I’m fairly certain you DO NOT see the full 15% from riposte(or any other maim/protection effects), including on shields(they get CP based %resists already). Wouldn’t it be much more accurate to min/max your CP(there’s only a small variety of ways to assign them that are viable, either you need unchained or you don’t) and test riposte to get a real mitigation % from it?

    You're stepping into a deep pool of diminishing returns.

    One of the sad things that has come to light to me in the past month is just how useless % reductions are the more you have of them.
    Definitely. This is something Tay and I were discussing the other day about stacking +%magicka on a magsorc, how it gets worse and worse when incorporating racial passives, inner light + mage guild passive, bound armor, and a set like ancient grace.
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  • TheDoomsdayMonster
    TheDoomsdayMonster
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    @Taylor_MB

    I can respect you not wanting to discuss Combat Physician here, and thats fine...

    But I will say this, the community is wrong as pertains to it...


    And here is a little math to back up my claim:

    1v1 fight...

    Combat Physician can negate 41000 points of damage in a minute; according to you thats nothing, but lets compare that to Wizards Riposte...

    Assuming you get the full 15% damage negation (and with no diminishing returns as it appears that Riposte isnt always giving you a full 15% damage negation), a Wizards Riposte user would have to withstand over 270,000 points of damage in a 1 minute time span simply to equal what Combat Physician will negate in an equal time span...


    Just some food for thought...

    Excellent thread btw...

    :)
    Edited by TheDoomsdayMonster on December 6, 2017 5:17PM
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  • Minno
    Minno
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    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    wait @Taylor_MB there isn’t any testing here? I’m fairly certain you DO NOT see the full 15% from riposte(or any other maim/protection effects), including on shields(they get CP based %resists already). Wouldn’t it be much more accurate to min/max your CP(there’s only a small variety of ways to assign them that are viable, either you need unchained or you don’t) and test riposte to get a real mitigation % from it?

    You're stepping into a deep pool of diminishing returns.

    One of the sad things that has come to light to me in the past month is just how useless % reductions are the more you have of them.

    If you're a Nord, your racial passive is useless because of Battlespirit, Hardy, Ironclad, Thick skinned, Elemental Defender, and Expert Defender. You might as well forget about Wizard's Riposte, especially if you are a Templar or Warden with access to Minor Protection. And this isn't even getting into Undeath from Vampire. I suppose ZoS needs to have diminishing returns so stacking %s aren't abused, but they way they have done so has all but rendered useless what is supposed to be the signature Nord's racial passive and made it such that it is pretty much guaranteed that % value on gear, passive, or CP star will not be that value when calculated in the game's combat.

    The calculation is the culprit. The % reduced never changes, but each additional mitigation is trying to reduce a number that's been reduced. But these damage reductions add a small amount to your total mitigation, for example minor protection for templars gives around 2-3% mitigation before block or major protection gives around 10% more total mitigation.

    Those stats do help against bleeds. But your right, after Ironclad/thick skin kicks in, your probably better off boosting quick recovery/crit resists since most builds struggle with defiles and don't run 50% crit resist which I feel is the actual minimum needed in cyro.
    Edited by Minno on December 6, 2017 5:17PM
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  • Speed_Kills
    Speed_Kills
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    @Doomsday if your calculations are correct (I didn't check) also remember that it is unmitigated damage but with 0 crits. Makes the calculation a bit more difficult.
    Some say speed kills, I hope to be proof of that.

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  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    So it’s safe to say that trans is superior to riposte on non-shield dependent builds in CP pvp on any spec that already has access to minor maim(NB, DK), is going to block often(Templar, DK, Warden), or has access to minor/major protection(Templar)? Because that’s been my understanding all along, I just want to make sure I’m interpreting this correctly
    Edited by Lexxypwns on December 6, 2017 10:47PM
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  • kaithuzar
    kaithuzar
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    I swapped my glyphs, cp, and mundus to give me more damage. I'm at 3.2k fully buffed with 12.369 pen.
    Changed the 2 recovery on jewelry to spell damage, set mundus from apprentice to atro, lost maybe 200 recovery but gained about 150~ish damage.
    Also as stated here:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4695981#Comment_4695981

    "I found I was using tri-pots way more than detect pots & was missing out on major sorcery big time.
    Removing double take off my back bar, moving assassins will to that slot & putting sap on my front bar again remedied the situation somewhat by allowing me to keep around 3k spell damage on scathing proc."

    So that's how I went from 2.5k to 3k, then the glyph, mundus, and cp changes gave me more pen & and extra 200 damage.

    So basically, my damage reduction/survivability is the same but now I hit harder.
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  • TheDoomsdayMonster
    TheDoomsdayMonster
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    @Doomsday if your calculations are correct (I didn't check) also remember that it is unmitigated damage but with 0 crits. Makes the calculation a bit more difficult.

    The calculations are sound; 270000 × .15 = 40,500 (Combat Physician can negate about 41000 in the same time span)...

    And you are correct as pertains the difficulty of making an exact comparison between this set and the others...

    I just want to dispel (what I feel) is the myth that Combat Physician is some horrible set that is so bad that it's not even worthy of consideration...

    From my experience it's very good...

    But that's from my experience...
    Unyeilding Bias
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    The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s
  • Tonturri
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    @Doomsday if your calculations are correct (I didn't check) also remember that it is unmitigated damage but with 0 crits. Makes the calculation a bit more difficult.

    The calculations are sound; 270000 × .15 = 40,500 (Combat Physician can negate about 41000 in the same time span)...

    And you are correct as pertains the difficulty of making an exact comparison between this set and the others...

    I just want to dispel (what I feel) is the myth that Combat Physician is some horrible set that is so bad that it's not even worthy of consideration...

    From my experience it's very good...

    But that's from my experience...

    I've read this thread and the one you made that was linked on page 1. Ahem.

    There is no myth. All the pros and cons of CP have been laid out in the thread the OP linked, and after considering CP, it was concluded that Riposte is generally better (so it's not 'so bad it's not even worthy of consideration). I admit to eyeing CP at least once - I pondered a CP/iceheart setup at one point, but I'm very lazy. You continuing to go around posting about CP like this comes off as pointlessly stubborn. I'll gladly expand upon everything I find wrong with your reasoning across either thread in a DM, but please, let's not clutter up this one.

    Anywho, lovely thread OP. Extremely helpful, and it has me reconsidering some build choices.
  • Brutusmax1mus
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    Can't believe i hadn't tried reposte / trans on my templar yet. Both let you really get into the mix and begin to dictate the fight.

    Thank you @Taylor_MB for the resources. My friend and i love it.

    @Lexxypwns I've heard you mention this combo dozens... not sure if you empirically picked this conclusion up, but it sounds like you have, which is impressive.
  • The_Protagonist
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    Another gem of a writer in the forums, Thank You <3
    Edited by The_Protagonist on December 7, 2017 3:39AM
  • Minno
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    @Taylor_MB <3

    Best thread 2017.
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  • Joy_Division
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    Confusing see post below for better explanation
    Edited by Joy_Division on December 9, 2017 3:52PM
    "Dragon leap is NOT overperforming. You are underperforming." - ZarkingFrued

    Joy's Old but still useful for newer players guide for beating VMA

  • Berenhir
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    @Taylor_MB You stated that Pariah needs to take damage to activate the 5-piece.

    This is actually not true, Pariah 5 piece gives about 2.5k additional resistances already at full health. That's why brass is a trash set for resistances, especially as you can combine pariah 2 piece heavy body (chest+some other big piece) with any jewelry trait (robust, arcane, healthy all available in purple). The only moment brass is "better" is when you don't take any damage at all^^
    Edited by Berenhir on December 9, 2017 10:24AM
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  • Taylor_MB
    Taylor_MB
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    @Berenhir
    That is true Pariah gives some of it's resistances at 100% health, but 9414 is still locked behind needing to take damage. This is accounted for in the spreadsheet by this equation I posted in the OP:
    Pariah Resistances = 5465 + 9414 * (1 - Current HP%)
    

    Regarding your comparison of Pariah and Brass, I produced this graph for you that can be found in tab "14 - Pariah vs Brass" of the spreadsheet.
    b2Idw3b.png
    As you can see, Brass provides higher damage reduction then Pariah when above 71.5% HP. Now for some builds and play styles this might be an acceptable level of health to drop below before receiving highest damage mitigation (I used this on my MageBlade tank for a long time - was good for drawing agro then low HP tanking), but for a standard brawler build staying at or close to 100% health is most ideal. Obviously this is all subjective, but Fortified Brass is not "trash" just because Mark of the Pariah theoretically has higher resistances. They both have their place.

    I also did make sure to mention in the OP that Mark of the Pariah jewellery drops in all traits.




    @Joy_Division
    I'm really sorry Joy but I'm having trouble understanding your last last post :(. Specifically:
    I care to compare stuff to the to the default, no % mitigation value (because that's how damage and healing are calculated).
    • The default?
    • No % mitigation value? Everything apart from Critical Resistance is a percentage mitigation.


    Regarding:
    I also came to the same conclusion as you: Wizard's Riposte and Transmutation are virtually identical. [...] So it's really just the 2-4 pieces that should determine whether people ought to take one or the other.
    I did certainly not come to that conclusion :O. At 100% critical chance with CP they were close, but change that to a more reasonable 50% and results are WR: 50.56% and Trans: 46.14% (with all the other same variables as in last post).

    Although the 2-4 piece bonuses are important (like if you need more regeneration), there are plenty of other factors that need to be considered. Mechanic wise; Wizard's Riposte applies minor maim on and including the first critical strike (so helps mitigate that gank burst and follow up) where as Transmutation won't help until to pull off a HoT (which is unlikely to be possible immediately against a quality gank). On the other side, WR is more likely to be diminished by other players utilising any other source of minor maim, whereas Trans will only be diminished by other Trans users (more rare in my experience then low slash spamming tanks). Trans also has an awesome animation, so definitely add some points for that.

    EDIT: Or is your concern that minor maim applies before offensive CP's are applied thus not giving a raw 15% decrease in damage taken when minor maim being active or not is the only thing that changes? If that is the question I apologise for misunderstanding and will get testing when I'm next online (which won't be until Monday now :( ).

    Edited by Taylor_MB on December 9, 2017 1:14PM
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  • Berenhir
    Berenhir
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    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    @Berenhir
    That is true Pariah gives some of it's resistances at 100% health, but 9414 is still locked behind needing to take damage. This is accounted for in the spreadsheet by this equation I posted in the OP:
    Pariah Resistances = 5465 + 9414 * (1 - Current HP%)
    

    Regarding your comparison of Pariah and Brass, I produced this graph for you that can be found in tab "14 - Pariah vs Brass" of the spreadsheet.
    b2Idw3b.png
    As you can see, Brass provides higher damage reduction then Pariah when above 71.5% HP. Now for some builds and play styles this might be an acceptable level of health to drop below before receiving highest damage mitigation (I used this on my MageBlade tank for a long time - was good for drawing agro then low HP tanking), but for a standard brawler build staying at or close to 100% health is most ideal. Obviously this is all subjective, but Fortified Brass is not "trash" just because Mark of the Pariah theoretically has higher resistances. They both have their place.

    I also did make sure to mention in the OP that Mark of the Pariah jewellery drops in all traits.

    Nice, thanks for the clarification. The point I mentioned just struck me when I read it on my phone.

    The graph is very nice. Especially on chars with addtional healing and mitigation perks at low health (magWarden, magDK, magTemplar, vampire) the survivability pariah provides is absurd.

    On stamina brawler builds there is a point for brass, though the amount of additional mitigation from pariah at low health (when I REALLY need it) is no match (for me personally) for the additional mitigation up front - especially when the break even point sits at roughly one dawnbreaker combo taken.



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    ... Gulhir, Magicka Nightblade
  • paulsimonps
    paulsimonps
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    Kartalin wrote: »
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    wait @Taylor_MB there isn’t any testing here? I’m fairly certain you DO NOT see the full 15% from riposte(or any other maim/protection effects), including on shields(they get CP based %resists already). Wouldn’t it be much more accurate to min/max your CP(there’s only a small variety of ways to assign them that are viable, either you need unchained or you don’t) and test riposte to get a real mitigation % from it?

    You're stepping into a deep pool of diminishing returns.

    One of the sad things that has come to light to me in the past month is just how useless % reductions are the more you have of them.
    Definitely. This is something Tay and I were discussing the other day about stacking +%magicka on a magsorc, how it gets worse and worse when incorporating racial passives, inner light + mage guild passive, bound armor, and a set like ancient grace.

    But those don't have diminishing returns? Those % stack additively with each other, sure they don't grow exponentially like some would have liked but neither is there a diminishing return on resources like that.

    Want to say this @Taylor_MB Thanks for this thread, I never really went into testing sets like this and merely gave the info about sources and formulas but this shows the true value of knowing these things. My wife have wanted me to help her make a tanky mag templar for a while for PvP and this certainly helps. Will try to update my thread soon too to list more stuff and redo some explanations, and will link yours there as well. Good to spread info like this around :wink:



  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    @Berenhir
    That is true Pariah gives some of it's resistances at 100% health, but 9414 is still locked behind needing to take damage. This is accounted for in the spreadsheet by this equation I posted in the OP:
    Pariah Resistances = 5465 + 9414 * (1 - Current HP%)
    

    Regarding your comparison of Pariah and Brass, I produced this graph for you that can be found in tab "14 - Pariah vs Brass" of the spreadsheet.
    b2Idw3b.png
    As you can see, Brass provides higher damage reduction then Pariah when above 71.5% HP. Now for some builds and play styles this might be an acceptable level of health to drop below before receiving highest damage mitigation (I used this on my MageBlade tank for a long time - was good for drawing agro then low HP tanking), but for a standard brawler build staying at or close to 100% health is most ideal. Obviously this is all subjective, but Fortified Brass is not "trash" just because Mark of the Pariah theoretically has higher resistances. They both have their place.

    I also did make sure to mention in the OP that Mark of the Pariah jewellery drops in all traits.




    @Joy_Division
    I'm really sorry Joy but I'm having trouble understanding your last last post :(. Specifically:
    I care to compare stuff to the to the default, no % mitigation value (because that's how damage and healing are calculated).
    • The default?
    • No % mitigation value? Everything apart from Critical Resistance is a percentage mitigation.


    Regarding:
    I also came to the same conclusion as you: Wizard's Riposte and Transmutation are virtually identical. [...] So it's really just the 2-4 pieces that should determine whether people ought to take one or the other.
    I did certainly not come to that conclusion :O. At 100% critical chance with CP they were close, but change that to a more reasonable 50% and results are WR: 50.56% and Trans: 46.14% (with all the other same variables as in last post).

    Although the 2-4 piece bonuses are important (like if you need more regeneration), there are plenty of other factors that need to be considered. Mechanic wise; Wizard's Riposte applies minor maim on and including the first critical strike (so helps mitigate that gank burst and follow up) where as Transmutation won't help until to pull off a HoT (which is unlikely to be possible immediately against a quality gank). On the other side, WR is more likely to be diminished by other players utilising any other source of minor maim, whereas Trans will only be diminished by other Trans users (more rare in my experience then low slash spamming tanks). Trans also has an awesome animation, so definitely add some points for that.

    EDIT: Or is your concern that minor maim applies before offensive CP's are applied thus not giving a raw 15% decrease in damage taken when minor maim being active or not is the only thing that changes? If that is the question I apologise for misunderstanding and will get testing when I'm next online (which won't be until Monday now :( ).

    Pretty much this.

    Yeah I'm not quite sure how to explain it. At the end of the day, here is what my testing revealed on the PTS.

    Let's say you are wearing Overwhelming Surge without any CP and an attack does 3114 damage.

    If you wear Wizard's Riposte instead, that attack will do 2792 damage. That's 322 less damage. That's 10.3% reduction.

    *****

    For another perspective, that same attack wearing Overwhelming Surge with CPs into Hardy (9% reduction) and Ironclad (19% reduction) will do 2286 damage.

    If you wear Wizard's Riposte instead, you'll take 2052 damage. That's 234 less damage. That's 10.2% damage reduction.

    *****

    For one last perspective, let's take your numbers of wizard's riposte giving an average mitigation with CPs as 50.56% and Transmutation as 49.01%. Let's now apply those values to that same attack against my non mitigated 0% resistance damage: 3625.

    Wizard's Riposte 50.56% of 3625 = 1832.8.
    Transmutation 49.01% of 3625 = 1776.6.

    That's close enough to be the result of a rounding error, let alone over or underestimating that amount of critical hit % and damage multipliers of your opponents (and thus skewing our estimated total for transmutation).

    So while we might think Wizard's is mitigation is 1.5% better (and thus about an extra 15% more damage then Transmutation), it's just 56 damage. And that 56 damage is, again, just an estimation of what we think is the average stats of our cyrodiil's opponents. Best call it a wash and look at the 2-4 pieces of each set as to whether to pick one or the other.

    Edited by Joy_Division on December 9, 2017 3:53PM
    "Dragon leap is NOT overperforming. You are underperforming." - ZarkingFrued

    Joy's Old but still useful for newer players guide for beating VMA

  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    @Taylor_MB I love you

    I also want to point out, concerning pariah, when I tested it(ages ago) the values did not update dynamically, instead having a check that occurred every second or so. This severely diminished the value in my eyes since the appeal of pariah is for it to scale damage down in a way similar to undeath. If you take a big burst and then passively heal 5k of that before the pariah refresh you’d never see mitigation equal to your lowest HP reached

    This was way back around Thieves guild though, if it’s been changed then it’s a great set, if not then it’s only OK
    Edited by Lexxypwns on December 9, 2017 4:34PM
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  • Taylor_MB
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    @Joy_Division Thanks Joy! I'll get onto testing that tomorrow to find exactly where the minor maim is slotted into the calculation (silly me assuming it would just work like another mitigation, ZoS always makes it hard, haha) and update the WR formula to give 100% accurate outputs. Then after that maybe add CP option, lots to do XD.

    @Lexxypwns Thanks for the support! That's disappointing to hear about Pariah, if I find time between all the other stuff I want to test and update I'll give that one a go, haha.

    @paulsimonps Your mitigation thread has helped countless people understand the game better, so thank you!
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    - build and gamplay!
    LagPlar Ranged Lag Proof(ish) Magplar
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    ShadowGaurd MagBlade Group Utility Tank
    - build and gamplay!
    Oncoming Storm No-CP 11.6k Ward MagSorc - build and gamplay!
    My YouTube Chanel


  • Lexxypwns
    Lexxypwns
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    Berenhir wrote: »
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    @Taylor_MB I love you

    I also want to point out, concerning pariah, when I tested it(ages ago) the values did not update dynamically, instead having a check that occurred every second or so. This severely diminished the value in my eyes since the appeal of pariah is for it to scale damage down in a way similar to undeath. If you take a big burst and then passively heal 5k of that before the pariah refresh you’d never see mitigation equal to your lowest HP reached

    This was way back around Thieves guild though, if it’s been changed then it’s a great set, if not then it’s only OK
    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    @Lexxypwns Thanks for the support! That's disappointing to hear about Pariah, if I find time between all the other stuff I want to test and update I'll give that one a go, haha.

    Maybe the standard UI has a delay on refreshing the resistance values. I tested the resistance refresh rate with Omnistats set to 100ms refresh rate:



    TLDW:
    Pariah refreshes on every single hit to your health.

    Nice! My tests were just directly with the UI and it would update immediately, this definitely makes pariah BiS defensive set on builds that can fit it on both bars.
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  • Glory
    Glory
    Class Representative
    Great calculations spreadsheet! Love this stuff, and I honestly get too into set comparisons sometime.

    I don't have perfect calculations to share with you, but I will say that a negative component of using Wizard's Riposte over, say Transmutation, is that it is an enemy debuff proc rather than a self/group buff. This lends to the ability for enemies to bypass the set more easily via low crit chance, purging the buff, etc. It also makes it a lesser off-bar set, as it is much easier to guarantee a HoT backbar proc from Transmutation than it is to proc Wizard's on every enemy.

    I've done similar calculations (more back-of napkin with more assumptions) for group defensive buff setups, and found that Transmutation often beats out Wizard's for the sole reason that it is much easier to proc as a self-buff on backbar. Then again, when you get into group calculations stuff, sets like Meritorious Service start performing better than Fortified Brass, etc. so feel free to ignore me :smile:
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  • Thogard
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    Glory wrote: »
    Great calculations spreadsheet! Love this stuff, and I honestly get too into set comparisons sometime.

    I don't have perfect calculations to share with you, but I will say that a negative component of using Wizard's Riposte over, say Transmutation, is that it is an enemy debuff proc rather than a self/group buff. This lends to the ability for enemies to bypass the set more easily via low crit chance, purging the buff, etc. It also makes it a lesser off-bar set, as it is much easier to guarantee a HoT backbar proc from Transmutation than it is to proc Wizard's on every enemy.

    I've done similar calculations (more back-of napkin with more assumptions) for group defensive buff setups, and found that Transmutation often beats out Wizard's for the sole reason that it is much easier to proc as a self-buff on backbar. Then again, when you get into group calculations stuff, sets like Meritorious Service start performing better than Fortified Brass, etc. so feel free to ignore me :smile:

    The moment you start purging Riposte is the moment you realize how worthless doing so is.

    It goes like this: attack, Riposte proc, purge, Riposte proc...
    Purge...
    Proc...

    Pur..PROC!

    Trust me, save your mag, it's uptime is nearly 100% (unless you start attacking someone else)
    Glory wrote: »
    Great calculations spreadsheet! Love this stuff, and I honestly get too into set comparisons sometime.

    I don't have perfect calculations to share with you, but I will say that a negative component of using Wizard's Riposte over, say Transmutation, is that it is an enemy debuff proc rather than a self/group buff. This lends to the ability for enemies to bypass the set more easily via low crit chance, purging the buff, etc. It also makes it a lesser off-bar set, as it is much easier to guarantee a HoT backbar proc from Transmutation than it is to proc Wizard's on every enemy.

    I've done similar calculations (more back-of napkin with more assumptions) for group defensive buff setups, and found that Transmutation often beats out Wizard's for the sole reason that it is much easier to proc as a self-buff on backbar. Then again, when you get into group calculations stuff, sets like Meritorious Service start performing better than Fortified Brass, etc. so feel free to ignore me :smile:

    The moment you start purging Riposte is the moment you realize how worthless doing so is.

    It goes like this: attack, Riposte proc, purge, Riposte proc...
    Purge...
    Proc...

    Pur..PROC!

    Trust me, save your mag, it's uptime is nearly 100% (unless you start attacking someone else)

    Even if you attack someone else, if you have any a slight amount of AoE you’ll still get riposte.
    PC NA - Thogard / Sir Thogalot / Thoggy Boi jr / Thogaine / El Thogardo

    twitch.tv/ThogardPvP
  • cschwingeb14_ESO
    cschwingeb14_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭
    Since riposte is a debuffs on enemy players, there's no reason to think it has diminishing returns with your own % damage reduction

    There might be some interaction with the debuffed player's damage boosts I suppose

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