wait @Taylor_MB there isn’t any testing here? I’m fairly certain you DO NOT see the full 15% from riposte(or any other maim/protection effects), including on shields(they get CP based %resists already). Wouldn’t it be much more accurate to min/max your CP(there’s only a small variety of ways to assign them that are viable, either you need unchained or you don’t) and test riposte to get a real mitigation % from it?
Definitely. This is something Tay and I were discussing the other day about stacking +%magicka on a magsorc, how it gets worse and worse when incorporating racial passives, inner light + mage guild passive, bound armor, and a set like ancient grace.Joy_Division wrote: »wait @Taylor_MB there isn’t any testing here? I’m fairly certain you DO NOT see the full 15% from riposte(or any other maim/protection effects), including on shields(they get CP based %resists already). Wouldn’t it be much more accurate to min/max your CP(there’s only a small variety of ways to assign them that are viable, either you need unchained or you don’t) and test riposte to get a real mitigation % from it?
You're stepping into a deep pool of diminishing returns.
One of the sad things that has come to light to me in the past month is just how useless % reductions are the more you have of them.
Joy_Division wrote: »wait @Taylor_MB there isn’t any testing here? I’m fairly certain you DO NOT see the full 15% from riposte(or any other maim/protection effects), including on shields(they get CP based %resists already). Wouldn’t it be much more accurate to min/max your CP(there’s only a small variety of ways to assign them that are viable, either you need unchained or you don’t) and test riposte to get a real mitigation % from it?
You're stepping into a deep pool of diminishing returns.
One of the sad things that has come to light to me in the past month is just how useless % reductions are the more you have of them.
If you're a Nord, your racial passive is useless because of Battlespirit, Hardy, Ironclad, Thick skinned, Elemental Defender, and Expert Defender. You might as well forget about Wizard's Riposte, especially if you are a Templar or Warden with access to Minor Protection. And this isn't even getting into Undeath from Vampire. I suppose ZoS needs to have diminishing returns so stacking %s aren't abused, but they way they have done so has all but rendered useless what is supposed to be the signature Nord's racial passive and made it such that it is pretty much guaranteed that % value on gear, passive, or CP star will not be that value when calculated in the game's combat.
Speed_Kills wrote: »@Doomsday if your calculations are correct (I didn't check) also remember that it is unmitigated damage but with 0 crits. Makes the calculation a bit more difficult.
TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »Speed_Kills wrote: »@Doomsday if your calculations are correct (I didn't check) also remember that it is unmitigated damage but with 0 crits. Makes the calculation a bit more difficult.
The calculations are sound; 270000 × .15 = 40,500 (Combat Physician can negate about 41000 in the same time span)...
And you are correct as pertains the difficulty of making an exact comparison between this set and the others...
I just want to dispel (what I feel) is the myth that Combat Physician is some horrible set that is so bad that it's not even worthy of consideration...
From my experience it's very good...
But that's from my experience...
1 - (1 - 'Resistance Damage Reduction') * (1 - 15%)it reduces what damage you have "left" after other mitigation by 15%.
[1 - (BASE RESIST - PEN) / RESIST CAP * 0.5] * (1 - CRIT CHANCE) + [1 - (BASE RESIST - PEN) / RESIST CAP * 0.5] * CRIT CHANCE * (CRIT DMG - CRIT RESIST / 68 / 100)The only changes we have to make to account for:
@Taylor_MB You stated that Pariah needs to take damage to activate the 5-piece.
This is actually not true, Pariah 5 piece gives about 2.5k additional resistances already at full health. That's why brass is a trash set for resistances, especially as you can combine pariah 2 piece heavy body (chest+some other big piece) with any jewelry trait (robust, arcane, healthy all available in purple). The only moment brass is "better" is when you don't take any damage at all^^
Pariah Resistances = 5465 + 9414 * (1 - Current HP%)
• The default?Joy_Division wrote: »I care to compare stuff to the to the default, no % mitigation value (because that's how damage and healing are calculated).
I did certainly not come to that conclusion :O. At 100% critical chance with CP they were close, but change that to a more reasonable 50% and results are WR: 50.56% and Trans: 46.14% (with all the other same variables as in last post).Joy_Division wrote: »I also came to the same conclusion as you: Wizard's Riposte and Transmutation are virtually identical. [...] So it's really just the 2-4 pieces that should determine whether people ought to take one or the other.
@Berenhir
That is true Pariah gives some of it's resistances at 100% health, but 9414 is still locked behind needing to take damage. This is accounted for in the spreadsheet by this equation I posted in the OP:Pariah Resistances = 5465 + 9414 * (1 - Current HP%)
Regarding your comparison of Pariah and Brass, I produced this graph for you that can be found in tab "14 - Pariah vs Brass" of the spreadsheet.
As you can see, Brass provides higher damage reduction then Pariah when above 71.5% HP. Now for some builds and play styles this might be an acceptable level of health to drop below before receiving highest damage mitigation (I used this on my MageBlade tank for a long time - was good for drawing agro then low HP tanking), but for a standard brawler build staying at or close to 100% health is most ideal. Obviously this is all subjective, but Fortified Brass is not "trash" just because Mark of the Pariah theoretically has higher resistances. They both have their place.
I also did make sure to mention in the OP that Mark of the Pariah jewellery drops in all traits.
Definitely. This is something Tay and I were discussing the other day about stacking +%magicka on a magsorc, how it gets worse and worse when incorporating racial passives, inner light + mage guild passive, bound armor, and a set like ancient grace.Joy_Division wrote: »wait @Taylor_MB there isn’t any testing here? I’m fairly certain you DO NOT see the full 15% from riposte(or any other maim/protection effects), including on shields(they get CP based %resists already). Wouldn’t it be much more accurate to min/max your CP(there’s only a small variety of ways to assign them that are viable, either you need unchained or you don’t) and test riposte to get a real mitigation % from it?
You're stepping into a deep pool of diminishing returns.
One of the sad things that has come to light to me in the past month is just how useless % reductions are the more you have of them.
@Berenhir
That is true Pariah gives some of it's resistances at 100% health, but 9414 is still locked behind needing to take damage. This is accounted for in the spreadsheet by this equation I posted in the OP:Pariah Resistances = 5465 + 9414 * (1 - Current HP%)
Regarding your comparison of Pariah and Brass, I produced this graph for you that can be found in tab "14 - Pariah vs Brass" of the spreadsheet.
As you can see, Brass provides higher damage reduction then Pariah when above 71.5% HP. Now for some builds and play styles this might be an acceptable level of health to drop below before receiving highest damage mitigation (I used this on my MageBlade tank for a long time - was good for drawing agro then low HP tanking), but for a standard brawler build staying at or close to 100% health is most ideal. Obviously this is all subjective, but Fortified Brass is not "trash" just because Mark of the Pariah theoretically has higher resistances. They both have their place.
I also did make sure to mention in the OP that Mark of the Pariah jewellery drops in all traits.
@Joy_Division
I'm really sorry Joy but I'm having trouble understanding your last last post . Specifically:• The default?Joy_Division wrote: »I care to compare stuff to the to the default, no % mitigation value (because that's how damage and healing are calculated).
• No % mitigation value? Everything apart from Critical Resistance is a percentage mitigation.
Regarding:I did certainly not come to that conclusion :O. At 100% critical chance with CP they were close, but change that to a more reasonable 50% and results are WR: 50.56% and Trans: 46.14% (with all the other same variables as in last post).Joy_Division wrote: »I also came to the same conclusion as you: Wizard's Riposte and Transmutation are virtually identical. [...] So it's really just the 2-4 pieces that should determine whether people ought to take one or the other.
Although the 2-4 piece bonuses are important (like if you need more regeneration), there are plenty of other factors that need to be considered. Mechanic wise; Wizard's Riposte applies minor maim on and including the first critical strike (so helps mitigate that gank burst and follow up) where as Transmutation won't help until to pull off a HoT (which is unlikely to be possible immediately against a quality gank). On the other side, WR is more likely to be diminished by other players utilising any other source of minor maim, whereas Trans will only be diminished by other Trans users (more rare in my experience then low slash spamming tanks). Trans also has an awesome animation, so definitely add some points for that.
EDIT: Or is your concern that minor maim applies before offensive CP's are applied thus not giving a raw 15% decrease in damage taken when minor maim being active or not is the only thing that changes? If that is the question I apologise for misunderstanding and will get testing when I'm next online (which won't be until Monday now ).
@Taylor_MB I love you
I also want to point out, concerning pariah, when I tested it(ages ago) the values did not update dynamically, instead having a check that occurred every second or so. This severely diminished the value in my eyes since the appeal of pariah is for it to scale damage down in a way similar to undeath. If you take a big burst and then passively heal 5k of that before the pariah refresh you’d never see mitigation equal to your lowest HP reached
This was way back around Thieves guild though, if it’s been changed then it’s a great set, if not then it’s only OK
@Lexxypwns Thanks for the support! That's disappointing to hear about Pariah, if I find time between all the other stuff I want to test and update I'll give that one a go, haha.
@Taylor_MB I love you
I also want to point out, concerning pariah, when I tested it(ages ago) the values did not update dynamically, instead having a check that occurred every second or so. This severely diminished the value in my eyes since the appeal of pariah is for it to scale damage down in a way similar to undeath. If you take a big burst and then passively heal 5k of that before the pariah refresh you’d never see mitigation equal to your lowest HP reached
This was way back around Thieves guild though, if it’s been changed then it’s a great set, if not then it’s only OK@Lexxypwns Thanks for the support! That's disappointing to hear about Pariah, if I find time between all the other stuff I want to test and update I'll give that one a go, haha.
Maybe the standard UI has a delay on refreshing the resistance values. I tested the resistance refresh rate with Omnistats set to 100ms refresh rate:
TLDW:
Pariah refreshes on every single hit to your health.
Great calculations spreadsheet! Love this stuff, and I honestly get too into set comparisons sometime.
I don't have perfect calculations to share with you, but I will say that a negative component of using Wizard's Riposte over, say Transmutation, is that it is an enemy debuff proc rather than a self/group buff. This lends to the ability for enemies to bypass the set more easily via low crit chance, purging the buff, etc. It also makes it a lesser off-bar set, as it is much easier to guarantee a HoT backbar proc from Transmutation than it is to proc Wizard's on every enemy.
I've done similar calculations (more back-of napkin with more assumptions) for group defensive buff setups, and found that Transmutation often beats out Wizard's for the sole reason that it is much easier to proc as a self-buff on backbar. Then again, when you get into group calculations stuff, sets like Meritorious Service start performing better than Fortified Brass, etc. so feel free to ignore me
Waffennacht wrote: »Great calculations spreadsheet! Love this stuff, and I honestly get too into set comparisons sometime.
I don't have perfect calculations to share with you, but I will say that a negative component of using Wizard's Riposte over, say Transmutation, is that it is an enemy debuff proc rather than a self/group buff. This lends to the ability for enemies to bypass the set more easily via low crit chance, purging the buff, etc. It also makes it a lesser off-bar set, as it is much easier to guarantee a HoT backbar proc from Transmutation than it is to proc Wizard's on every enemy.
I've done similar calculations (more back-of napkin with more assumptions) for group defensive buff setups, and found that Transmutation often beats out Wizard's for the sole reason that it is much easier to proc as a self-buff on backbar. Then again, when you get into group calculations stuff, sets like Meritorious Service start performing better than Fortified Brass, etc. so feel free to ignore me
The moment you start purging Riposte is the moment you realize how worthless doing so is.
It goes like this: attack, Riposte proc, purge, Riposte proc...
Purge...
Proc...
Pur..PROC!
Trust me, save your mag, it's uptime is nearly 100% (unless you start attacking someone else)
Waffennacht wrote: »Great calculations spreadsheet! Love this stuff, and I honestly get too into set comparisons sometime.
I don't have perfect calculations to share with you, but I will say that a negative component of using Wizard's Riposte over, say Transmutation, is that it is an enemy debuff proc rather than a self/group buff. This lends to the ability for enemies to bypass the set more easily via low crit chance, purging the buff, etc. It also makes it a lesser off-bar set, as it is much easier to guarantee a HoT backbar proc from Transmutation than it is to proc Wizard's on every enemy.
I've done similar calculations (more back-of napkin with more assumptions) for group defensive buff setups, and found that Transmutation often beats out Wizard's for the sole reason that it is much easier to proc as a self-buff on backbar. Then again, when you get into group calculations stuff, sets like Meritorious Service start performing better than Fortified Brass, etc. so feel free to ignore me
The moment you start purging Riposte is the moment you realize how worthless doing so is.
It goes like this: attack, Riposte proc, purge, Riposte proc...
Purge...
Proc...
Pur..PROC!
Trust me, save your mag, it's uptime is nearly 100% (unless you start attacking someone else)