Stam warden maul or greatsword?

MiniB1084

Is a maul penetration overkill? Which one is better atm?

Lexxypwns

Axe is BiS

Lexxypwns

idk wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

For PvP against tanks it is good to have more penetration since they can stack beyond the armor cap. For PvE it is overkill, probably for most things.

Sword is probably best for PvE.

Just double checked the 2h PvE build of one of the top dps in the game and he is using the sword. There is no reason the axe would be the better choice for PvP either.

Axe bleed is not impacted by resistance, it hits very hard and is a game changer for dps. A great offense is a good defense in this game

Axe bleed is ot, so it hits hard enough against a tank that it performs better than the added burst damage from a sword. Interested. Still wrong for PvE.

Axe bleed is the strongest stam DoT non-DK can get and it procs for free. Axe is insane pressure.

Edit: Furthermore, in PVP you often encounter higher resistance numbers, this means the maul is also superior to the sword despite what @idk says the maul and axe are both superior to the sword in PVP. Sword adds 5% damage(less really, but let’s say 5), mace adds more than 5% damage if the opponent has 16k remaining armor after your other penetration(~26k base, which is about average in PVP). Axe is better anyway because it’s got huge uptime and ignores mitigation. Sword is superior in PVE because you’ll get less value from the maul due to lower base resists.

idk

For PvP against tanks it is good to have more penetration since they can stack beyond the armor cap. For PvE it is overkill, probably for most things.

Sword is probably best for PvE.

Just double checked the 2h PvE build of one of the top dps in the game and he is using the sword. There is no reason the axe would be the better choice for PvP either.

Brutusmax1mus

idk wrote: »

For PvP against tanks it is good to have more penetration since they can stack beyond the armor cap. For PvE it is overkill, probably for most things.

Sword is probably best for PvE.

Just double checked the 2h PvE build of one of the top dps in the game and he is using the sword. There is no reason the axe would be the better choice for PvP either.

Axe bleed is not impacted by resistance, it hits very hard and is a game changer for dps. A great offense is a good defense in this game

idk

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

For PvP against tanks it is good to have more penetration since they can stack beyond the armor cap. For PvE it is overkill, probably for most things.

Sword is probably best for PvE.

Just double checked the 2h PvE build of one of the top dps in the game and he is using the sword. There is no reason the axe would be the better choice for PvP either.

Axe bleed is not impacted by resistance, it hits very hard and is a game changer for dps. A great offense is a good defense in this game

Axe bleed is ot, so it hits hard enough against a tank that it performs better than the added burst damage from a sword. Interested. Still wrong for PvE.

Ragnarock41

greatsword is best for front bar.
axe is a viable back bar weapon.

Strider__Roshin

I prefer sword because damage shields are OP. Maul does 2-3% more damage against high mitigation opponents, and the deal about the same damage around 16-17k mitigation. Mauls are useless against damage shields.

Thogard

Daus wrote: »

I prefer sword because damage shields are OP. Maul does 2-3% more damage against high mitigation opponents, and the deal about the same damage around 16-17k mitigation. Mauls are useless against damage shields.

That logic might hold up if you didn’t have to choose between dmg to shield and penetration with the same champ points.
Assuming you’re a stamden (all DD, no dots) it’s better to go with a maul and use champ points to bring you up to a sword’s dmg against shielded opponents (and regular opponents to factor in the 5% dmg) than it is to use a sword and use champ points to bring you up to a maul’s penetration against heavy armor targets

It’s pretty close though if I recall correctly. Biggest difference is that using champ points to bring a maul in line with a great sword gives you three different stars to boost, whereas using a sword and bringing it in line with a maul you have to dump everything into just one penetration star.

Only works if you don’t run dots though and can skip thaumaturge.

Lexxypwns

Guys, outside of damage shields, Sword basically never outperforms maul against competent targets.

Waffennacht

The only time I'd pick sword is for a magicka build needing Momentum

lynog85

Axe is only single target (the bleed) so why would a warden use it unless in a 1v1? Surely the maul is the way to go. Groups hit by subteranean and DB are all going to be affected by the maul passive. Sword and maul will both be better openworld for a stamden. Single target toons like stamblades then axe is best.

Waffennacht

lynog85 wrote: »

Axe is only single target (the bleed) so why would a warden use it unless in a 1v1? Surely the maul is the way to go. Groups hit by subteranean and DB are all going to be affected by the maul passive. Sword and maul will both be better openworld for a stamden. Single target toons like stamblades then axe is best.

K? It's melee, not single target

ak_pvp

Prefer sword. Axe dot is ST, maul is situational.

Shield spammers, squishier builds like NB etc sword is better.

Izaki

Maul is situational (BiS against tankier opponents).

I personally find the Axe to be meh in Cyrodiil but BiS in duels. Most of the time when you're outnumbered in open world, your burst windows are very small, thus leaving little chance for the Axe to proc. Especially, if you're in medium. You're going to spend most of your time kiting and LoSing, and when you do have an offensive opportunity, it will be very short. At this point, 16% chance to proc a DoT on a melee attack is pretty slim.

Greatsword is the most versatile (and its BiS against anything with a damage shield). Another important thing: if you're using an execute, then Greatsword will most likely be best, since executes scale multiplicatively with % bonuses.

I personally go with Greatsword for the looks. The damage difference is so tiny between the 3 weapons types that it doesn't really matter what you go with.

IcyDeadPeople

Why does the bleed proc so frequently? Seems like a lot more than 16%

lynog85

Waffennacht wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Axe is only single target (the bleed) so why would a warden use it unless in a 1v1? Surely the maul is the way to go. Groups hit by subteranean and DB are all going to be affected by the maul passive. Sword and maul will both be better openworld for a stamden. Single target toons like stamblades then axe is best.

K? It's melee, not single target

I tested proccing the axe bleed just spamming SA on stamden. Never procced once. Can only get it to proc using light or HA and 2h weapon skills.

idk

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, outside of damage shields, Sword basically never outperforms maul against competent targets.

You mean targets with high resistance. High resistance does not mean competitive in Cyrodiil.

Waffennacht wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Axe is only single target (the bleed) so why would a warden use it unless in a 1v1? Surely the maul is the way to go. Groups hit by subteranean and DB are all going to be affected by the maul passive. Sword and maul will both be better openworld for a stamden. Single target toons like stamblades then axe is best.

K? It's melee, not single target

And unless it has been changed it very recently it is not even with all melee skills.

Waffennacht

lynog85 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Axe is only single target (the bleed) so why would a warden use it unless in a 1v1? Surely the maul is the way to go. Groups hit by subteranean and DB are all going to be affected by the maul passive. Sword and maul will both be better openworld for a stamden. Single target toons like stamblades then axe is best.

K? It's melee, not single target

I tested proccing the axe bleed just spamming SA on stamden. Never procced once. Can only get it to proc using light or HA and 2h weapon skills.

idk wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, outside of damage shields, Sword basically never outperforms maul against competent targets.

You mean targets with high resistance. High resistance does not mean competitive in Cyrodiil.

Waffennacht wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Axe is only single target (the bleed) so why would a warden use it unless in a 1v1? Surely the maul is the way to go. Groups hit by subteranean and DB are all going to be affected by the maul passive. Sword and maul will both be better openworld for a stamden. Single target toons like stamblades then axe is best.

K? It's melee, not single target

And unless it has been changed it very recently it is not even with all melee skills.

That's a bummer, I'm glad to know.

TheYKcid

I don't run a Stamden but the experience I've had with axe/maul is pretty universal. I ran axe (as a frontbar) for the longest time, enticed by the fact that it could reliably pressure permablockers and roly-polies, and had the perks of a maul (counters high-resistance builds) without the drawback (useless against shields).

In practice, though, I found the bleed re-applied too frequently to be effective. If you're unaware of this mechanic—an axe bleed only deals its first damage tick 2s after debuff application, and thereafter ticks twice more at the same interval (for a total of 3 ticks in 6s).

If the bleed gets re-applied before a damage tick occurs, the timer resets and you deal zero damage until another 2s have passed (during which time it is entirely possible for the bleed to reapply AGAIN, since it doesn't possess an ICD).

I've since switched to maul and have been getting much better results. The lack of an RNG element, along with the damage boost it provides to the rest of your combo, provides much more value when I'm committed to a small burst window.

I can see axe being the best choice when run on the backbar, though. You'd apply the bleed, then switch to your frontbar to deal the bulk of your damage while the bleed continues ticking away, without the risk of re-application.

Trashs1

TheYKcid wrote: »

I don't run a Stamden but the experience I've had with axe/maul is pretty universal. I ran axe (as a frontbar) for the longest time, enticed by the fact that it could reliably pressure permablockers and roly-polies, and had the perks of a maul (counters high-resistance builds) without the drawback (useless against shields).

In practice, though, I found the bleed re-applied too frequently to be effective. If you're unaware of this mechanic—an axe bleed only deals its first damage tick 2s after debuff application, and thereafter ticks twice more at the same interval (for a total of 3 ticks in 6s).

If the bleed gets re-applied before a damage tick occurs, the timer resets and you deal zero damage until another 2s have passed (during which time it is entirely possible for the bleed to reapply AGAIN, since it doesn't possess an ICD).

I've since switched to maul and have been getting much better results. The lack of an RNG element, along with the damage boost it provides to the rest of your combo, provides much more value when I'm committed to a small burst window.

I can see axe being the best choice when run on the backbar, though. You'd apply the bleed, then switch to your frontbar to deal the bulk of your damage while the bleed continues ticking away, without the risk of re-application.

if this is true, really thx for the information!

cschwingeb14_ESO

The axe bleed can be very picky about what it will proc from, because it says melee attacks (which usually means skills with a range of 7' or less)

It won't proc from twin slashes bleed or brawler DoT, but it will proc from the initial hit off both of those. It won't proc from blade cloak. It won't proc from steel tornado

It will proc from stampede. And of course light attacks

I wouldn't expect it to proc from sub assault

When it does proc, it is a strong DoT. You can have both the 2h bleed and the DW bleed up at the same time, but the proc chance is so low it's really hard to actually get that to happen.

Trashs1

cschwingeb14_ESO wrote: »

The axe bleed can be very picky about what it will proc from, because it says melee attacks (which usually means skills with a range of 7' or less)

It won't proc from twin slashes bleed or brawler DoT, but it will proc from the initial hit off both of those. It won't proc from blade cloak. It won't proc from steel tornado

It will proc from stampede. And of course light attacks

I wouldn't expect it to proc from sub assault

When it does proc, it is a strong DoT. You can have both the 2h bleed and the DW bleed up at the same time, but the proc chance is so low it's really hard to actually get that to happen.

so... is axe sword or maul bis for stamden? we are doing circles here xD

Koensol

I would say nirnhoned maul does the most damage overall. Yes, greatswords deal more damage to shields, but its more effective to cc a shield user at the right time and then burst. I am using a battleaxe atm. Its nice when the bleed procs, and it often gave me the fight, but you have no control over it which sucks.

Laquey

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Axe bleed is the strongest stam DoT non-DK can get and it procs for free. Axe is insane pressure.

Edit: Furthermore, in PVP you often encounter higher resistance numbers, this means the maul is also superior to the sword despite what @idk says the maul and axe are both superior to the sword in PVP. Sword adds 5% damage(less really, but let’s say 5), mace adds more than 5% damage if the opponent has 16k remaining armor after your other penetration(~26k base, which is about average in PVP). Axe is better anyway because it’s got huge uptime and ignores mitigation. Sword is superior in PVE because you’ll get less value from the maul due to lower base resists.

This is true if you don't take debuff removal into account and not all builds run around with 26K+ res especially with the recent changes to remove WD from heavy armour.

The equation in reality is this:

Sword will give you something against everyone shielded targets and all levels of armour target.

Maul does more damage than sword against people with 26K+ resistance that aren't shielded.

If you're running a pressure build (mostly dot builds) Axe is your go to weapon because if you can't protect your Axe dot from removal and they have removal, all Templars + wardens with betty netch plus anyone slotting efficient purge, it's useless to you.

Thogard

Koensol wrote: »

I would say nirnhoned maul does the most damage overall. Yes, greatswords deal more damage to shields, but its more effective to cc a shield user at the right time and then burst. I am using a battleaxe atm. Its nice when the bleed procs, and it often gave me the fight, but you have no control over it which sucks.

Nirnhoned maul for a max CP user does more dmg to shields than a 2h nirnhoned sword does. That’s because if you take some of the points you would normally put in penetration and add them instead to the dmg against shield star, you’ll still have more penetration against nonshielded targets and more dmg against shielded targets...

Edit: I’m not saying dump everything extra from penetration into that one star. Spread it out among the dmg stars and tweak it according to your build. But using the “conversion rate” we get from those CP stars, 20% pen is much better than 5% dmg as long as all your damage is one type (direct dmg)
In no cp I think 2h sword is better.

idk

Waffennacht wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Axe is only single target (the bleed) so why would a warden use it unless in a 1v1? Surely the maul is the way to go. Groups hit by subteranean and DB are all going to be affected by the maul passive. Sword and maul will both be better openworld for a stamden. Single target toons like stamblades then axe is best.

K? It's melee, not single target

I tested proccing the axe bleed just spamming SA on stamden. Never procced once. Can only get it to proc using light or HA and 2h weapon skills.

idk wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Guys, outside of damage shields, Sword basically never outperforms maul against competent targets.

You mean targets with high resistance. High resistance does not mean competitive in Cyrodiil.

Waffennacht wrote: »

lynog85 wrote: »

Axe is only single target (the bleed) so why would a warden use it unless in a 1v1? Surely the maul is the way to go. Groups hit by subteranean and DB are all going to be affected by the maul passive. Sword and maul will both be better openworld for a stamden. Single target toons like stamblades then axe is best.

K? It's melee, not single target

And unless it has been changed it very recently it is not even with all melee skills.

That's a bummer, I'm glad to know.

@Waffennacht

Yes, for a bit stam PvE builds would run one axe for the bleed chance, except stamplar since they are using their jabs which would not proc the bleed. Again, idk if that was changed recently but I seriously doubt it.

Koensol

Thogard wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

I would say nirnhoned maul does the most damage overall. Yes, greatswords deal more damage to shields, but its more effective to cc a shield user at the right time and then burst. I am using a battleaxe atm. Its nice when the bleed procs, and it often gave me the fight, but you have no control over it which sucks.

Nirnhoned maul for a max CP user does more dmg to shields than a 2h nirnhoned sword does. That’s because if you take some of the points you would normally put in penetration and add them instead to the dmg against shield star, you’ll still have more penetration against nonshielded targets and more dmg against shielded targets...

Edit: I’m not saying dump everything extra from penetration into that one star. Spread it out among the dmg stars and tweak it according to your build. But using the “conversion rate” we get from those CP stars, 20% pen is much better than 5% dmg as long as all your damage is one type (direct dmg)
In no cp I think 2h sword is better.

Interesting, thanks for the insight. This further reinforces my plan to switch to the maul when I'm finally done researching the nirnhoned trait.

Lexxypwns

Stamden is definitely best off with axes guys. I’ve got gold Asylum in all weapons and Axe always yields the best performance. For example, I was unable to kill @Waffennacht with my dizzying build in a duel using sword(my axe was on my sDK), but I got him under 3k health multiple times and a bleed crit would have finished the fight.

The difference in burst with a sword is ~750 damage on your combo, 1 axe bleed tick does triple that and ticks 3 Times. Maul adds ~1200 to the burst combo against non-shielded opponents, less than a single axe tick and less than 1/3 of the total damage.

Axe>>>>All