[MATH] PvP Defensive Set Comparison (Impreg, Brass, Pariah, Riposte, + more)

  • xSylvanasWindrunner
    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    @xSylvanasWindrunner

    It depends on a lot of variables (in your own build and your opponents (which is why I encourage you to play around with the spreadsheet yourself)) but Impregnable outperforms other damage sets when your opponents have above ~55% critical chance. So even though a lot of players in Cyrodiil won't have Critical Chance this high, the players you are dying to probably will.

    Will it outperform Pariah? It terms of maximum mitigation value, no it won't, but you have to figure out if your build can handle being at less then ~68% HP to start mitigating more damage then Impregnable would be at 100% health. I'd only recommend Pariah to builds with absolute minimum of 30k HP, this is because you need to be able to survive in execute range to actually take advantage of this set.

    Hope that helps!

    I think I'm around 29k hp, my build right now is 5 shackle 5 BSW 2 Grothgarr (5-1-1 heavy) the build is strong with damage and 1v1 but sometimes I feel squishy when 2-3 players attack me at the same time, I'm thinking about switching the shackles extra stats for Pariah or the crit res set to sacrifice some stats to have more insane defense, what do you think?
  • kessik221
    kessik221
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    Nice work, heres what i have an issue with though; you're not taking into consideration several factors, such as traits and other sets. If you use impreg, you don't need any more crit resistance and can run other cp\ traits.
  • Subversus
    Subversus
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    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    @xSylvanasWindrunner

    It depends on a lot of variables (in your own build and your opponents (which is why I encourage you to play around with the spreadsheet yourself)) but Impregnable outperforms other damage sets when your opponents have above ~55% critical chance. So even though a lot of players in Cyrodiil won't have Critical Chance this high, the players you are dying to probably will.

    Will it outperform Pariah? It terms of maximum mitigation value, no it won't, but you have to figure out if your build can handle being at less then ~68% HP to start mitigating more damage then Impregnable would be at 100% health. I'd only recommend Pariah to builds with absolute minimum of 30k HP, this is because you need to be able to survive in execute range to actually take advantage of this set.

    Hope that helps!

    I think I'm around 29k hp, my build right now is 5 shackle 5 BSW 2 Grothgarr (5-1-1 heavy) the build is strong with damage and 1v1 but sometimes I feel squishy when 2-3 players attack me at the same time, I'm thinking about switching the shackles extra stats for Pariah or the crit res set to sacrifice some stats to have more insane defense, what do you think?

    Idk about running shackle only on one bar... BSW is a great set though, I agree. If only that damn inferno staff would drop already so I can run a 2p monster >_<
  • xSylvanasWindrunner
    Subversus wrote: »
    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    @xSylvanasWindrunner

    It depends on a lot of variables (in your own build and your opponents (which is why I encourage you to play around with the spreadsheet yourself)) but Impregnable outperforms other damage sets when your opponents have above ~55% critical chance. So even though a lot of players in Cyrodiil won't have Critical Chance this high, the players you are dying to probably will.

    Will it outperform Pariah? It terms of maximum mitigation value, no it won't, but you have to figure out if your build can handle being at less then ~68% HP to start mitigating more damage then Impregnable would be at 100% health. I'd only recommend Pariah to builds with absolute minimum of 30k HP, this is because you need to be able to survive in execute range to actually take advantage of this set.

    Hope that helps!

    I think I'm around 29k hp, my build right now is 5 shackle 5 BSW 2 Grothgarr (5-1-1 heavy) the build is strong with damage and 1v1 but sometimes I feel squishy when 2-3 players attack me at the same time, I'm thinking about switching the shackles extra stats for Pariah or the crit res set to sacrifice some stats to have more insane defense, what do you think?

    Idk about running shackle only on one bar... BSW is a great set though, I agree. If only that damn inferno staff would drop already so I can run a 2p monster >_<

    forgot to mention I'm using 2 swords & 1S&B, everything is active on both bars
  • Subversus
    Subversus
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    Subversus wrote: »
    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    @xSylvanasWindrunner

    It depends on a lot of variables (in your own build and your opponents (which is why I encourage you to play around with the spreadsheet yourself)) but Impregnable outperforms other damage sets when your opponents have above ~55% critical chance. So even though a lot of players in Cyrodiil won't have Critical Chance this high, the players you are dying to probably will.

    Will it outperform Pariah? It terms of maximum mitigation value, no it won't, but you have to figure out if your build can handle being at less then ~68% HP to start mitigating more damage then Impregnable would be at 100% health. I'd only recommend Pariah to builds with absolute minimum of 30k HP, this is because you need to be able to survive in execute range to actually take advantage of this set.

    Hope that helps!

    I think I'm around 29k hp, my build right now is 5 shackle 5 BSW 2 Grothgarr (5-1-1 heavy) the build is strong with damage and 1v1 but sometimes I feel squishy when 2-3 players attack me at the same time, I'm thinking about switching the shackles extra stats for Pariah or the crit res set to sacrifice some stats to have more insane defense, what do you think?

    Idk about running shackle only on one bar... BSW is a great set though, I agree. If only that damn inferno staff would drop already so I can run a 2p monster >_<

    forgot to mention I'm using 2 swords & 1S&B, everything is active on both bars

    Oh, that makes sense then. Must be magdk in that case? How would you sustain that with no sustain set? :O
  • Taylor_MB
    Taylor_MB
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    @xSylvanasWindrunner
    Pariah will obviously make you more tanky and with 29k HP you should be able to see the benefit of the really high resistances at low HP. At this stage it's really up to matching a set up with your playstyle. If you can survive at less then ~68% HP for extended periods, keeping in mind low HP players tend to draw agro of even more players (so kind of good for helping your allies :P), then Pariah will work for you.

    If you prefer to keep your HP constantly topped up, then the higher mitigation of Impregnable at high HP might benefit you more. One other factor in Impregnables favour is it allows you to run alternate traits, the degree to which this benefits your build is your judgement call to make :).
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  • Bam_Bam
    Bam_Bam
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    As a melee stamblade, is there any benefit to wearing Fort. Brass (armour) AND Impregnable Armour (jewellery/weaopns)?

    The maths and science in this game may as well be written in Chinese for me :)

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  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    Baranthus wrote: »
    As a melee stamblade, is there any benefit to wearing Fort. Brass (armour) AND Impregnable Armour (jewellery/weaopns)?

    The maths and science in this game may as well be written in Chinese for me :)

    You have sets that are either focused on:
    a) Sustain - Higher regen or max stats. See bone-pirate, shackle etc.
    b) Defence - Damage mitigation. Impreg, Brass etc
    c) Damage - Hunding, Spriggan etc.

    Majority of people pick 1 damage + 1 sustain. Though in some builds you can go 2xDamage, or 1 Damage-1-Defence depending on what suits you best.

    Generally, I wouldn't go too defensive on a stamblade. If you lack the burst to kill targets, whether they are light armor shield spammers or heavy s&b builds, you'll be eventually out-sustained by most of them when running 2 defensive sets. So I'd focus more on skills and play-style (cloak, shade, dodges) for mitigation instead of rocking a very defensive set up.

    Unless you plan to build some NB stam tank for reason unknown. In which case, you'd be better off doing it as a Warden (primarily) or DK (secondarily) to be honest.
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  • Taylor_MB
    Taylor_MB
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    @Baranthus There is absolutely benefit from wearing two defensive sets, they will not cancel each other out anything, but will still be effected by diminishing mitigation returns. So just using a very simple scenario so it's easy to follow;

    Opponent Stats
    Penetration = 0
    Crit Chance = 50%
    Crit Damage Modifier = 1.5 (the default)

    Your Stats
    Your Base Resistances = 0
    Your base Crit Resistance = 0

    Mitigation
    Impregnable = 14.7%
    Fortified Brass = 12.3%

    Impregnable & Fortified Brass = 25.2%
    Mitigation "lost" due to diminishing returns = 1.8%


    So wearing both sets does increase your overall mitigation, but after your first mitigation source reduces damage, all the other mitigation sources reduce that already reduced damage (thus diminishing returns). 1.8% might not seem like too much lost, but when you stack champion points, resistances, impenetrable trait, major/minor protection and even occasional blocking ontop of that it will increase dramatically. More mitigation will always reduce your damage taken, but the actual number each new source mitigates will be reduced.



    Following on from what @Maulkin said. With the following set type combinations you generally get these rough results:

    2x Defensive = troll tank
    1x Defensive + 1x Offensive = tanky + burst dps with ult (or just a non-squish dps) (or a healer)
    1x Defense + 1x Regen = tanky + utility (thinking talons, chains, purge, general debuffer) (or a healer)

    You can run 2x defensive sets and still be DPS orientated, but you'll find the pool of players you can actually kill is quite limited, so definitely recommend experimenting a little with different combinations.

    Hope that helps!

    Edited by Taylor_MB on January 9, 2018 8:38AM
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  • Bam_Bam
    Bam_Bam
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    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    @Baranthus There is absolutely benefit from wearing two defensive sets, they will not cancel each other out anything, but will still be effected by diminishing mitigation returns. So just using a very simple scenario so it's easy to follow;

    Opponent Stats
    Penetration = 0
    Crit Chance = 50%
    Crit Damage Modifier = 1.5 (the default)

    Your Stats
    Your Base Resistances = 0
    Your base Crit Resistance = 0

    Mitigation
    Impregnable = 14.7%
    Fortified Brass = 12.3%

    Impregnable & Fortified Brass = 25.2%
    Mitigation "lost" due to diminishing returns = 1.8%


    So wearing both sets does increase your overall mitigation, but after your first mitigation source reduces damage, all the other mitigation sources reduce that already reduced damage (thus diminishing returns). 1.8% might not seem like too much lost, but when you stack champion points, resistances, impenetrable trait, major/minor protection and even occasional blocking ontop of that it will increase dramatically. More mitigation will always reduce your damage taken, but the actual number each new source mitigates will be reduced.



    Following on from what @Maulkin said. With the following set type combinations you generally get these rough results:

    2x Defensive = troll tank
    1x Defensive + 1x Offensive = tanky + burst dps with ult (or just a non-squish dps) (or a healer)
    1x Defense + 1x Regen = tanky + utility (thinking talons, chains, purge, general debuffer) (or a healer)

    You can run 2x defensive sets and still be DPS orientated, but you'll find the pool of players you can actually kill is quite limited, so definitely recommend experimenting a little with different combinations.

    Hope that helps!

    That is fantastic. Thank you so much for the detailed reply!

    I had been running both sets both in group and solo. In an all NB small scale group, it's an excellent combination to wear if you are "the bait" (enemy see's a lonesome NB out of stealth and anticipates a quick easy kill - oops!).

    But if Impregnable still gives the really robust defensive bonuses, I can now see that iI'll definitely be running an offensive set instead of F. Brass.

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  • BucFanJKE
    BucFanJKE
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    @Taylor_MB

    How does Reactive compare to some of these sets? I'm still living in the summer of 2017 back when Templar Healers used 5 Trans (s&b + jewels) with 5 reactive body and 2 pirate skeleton/ 1 skeleton 1 chudan.

    I mostly do small group stuff. A typical group size for me is 3-6 players in open world, but I also use this healer in BGs. It has worked so I really haven't tweaked anything, but swapping Reactive for Impreg or Pariah seems like it could make sense. Just wondering how you would compare Reactive as a defensive set.
  • HaruKamui
    HaruKamui
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    So on a solo Magplar, WR is strictly better than Fortified Brass?
    Edited by HaruKamui on January 9, 2018 7:45PM
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  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    Ok...

    I believe I've shut every argument against me and the Combat Physician gear set down at this point...

    So now I'll exit (unless certain people start to spew more sewage from their pie holes of course)...

    :)

    You didn't answer none of my arguments on why CP bubble is less efficient than other bubbles

    CP is just an expensive one

    Even Almalexia's Mercy is a better defensive set than CP
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

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  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    Subversus wrote: »
    Lexxypwns wrote: »
    pieratsos wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    @Brutusmax1mus

    Ah, but I know what abilities proc it, so I can fight in situations were it will proc when facing an opponents burst (while unloading burst of my own) and destroy them...

    I do it all the time when facing stamina builds...

    And I absolutely use it in situations that call for skill as a result...

    I know precisely how to get maximum benefit from Combat Physician...and when to get it.

    The problem is every capable opponent will deal more dmg in a 6s burstwindow than the breakpoint between combat and riposte is.

    Also if you´re arguing from a healers pov - i want my healers to wear sanctuary or spc. Combat physician is incredibly bad for anything that is not a 1v1 situation.


    I'm not sure about that...

    The breaking point between the two is 41k+ damage in a 6 sec window and as I pointed out earlier in the thread, most characters have around 20-25k health...

    Unless you are on the defensive, that much damage in a 6 sec window will be lethal before 41k damage is reached, thus (by in large) that 41k number is unrealistic...

    It will be lethal to you cause you are bad. Stop presuming that we are all bad like you. We can take a lot more than 41k dmg in 6 seconds cause we know what we are doing.

    Nope, the only terrible player here is you, because your Sorc is now gimp and you can't deal with it...

    41k in 6 secs is lethal if you don't properly defend yourself; I spelled that out earlier in this thread, but didnt go into detail this time...

    But ignorance such as your own cherry picks things that fits into your narrow minded thought process...

    Be gone noob and go cry in another thread about your gimp Sorc...

    I do more than 20k passive healing in 6 seconds, without casting ANY defensive skills, which means as long as I have a 21k health pool I’m 100% ok to stay offensive through this “lethal” onslaught

    Fool...

    Healing IS a defensive skill...


    Wow...

    Atleast have an idea of what you are talking about before opening your mouth...

    You absolute moron, magblade has both strife and path which are offensive skills but passively heal you. Those are almost never used when you want to heal, you have to use them in order to dps the person down.

    Indeed both Magblades and stamsorcs are known for the fact that they can heal a lot will still going on the offensive. Its the same reason why they are usually recommended for clearing vMSA your first time, that and mag sorcs of course. I mean even DKs technically have an offensive heal with their stone fist morph. Mag Nbs also have a AoE Offensive heal in Sap essence though its mainly used by bomblades and not usually in a zerg surfers set up, still a really good skill all be it a bit costly to spam.

    So that is 3 offensive Heals, 2 being AoE in both damage and healing. Yea NBs do not have to drop offense to do defense until they get really really pushed, and even then put a small HoT on like rapid regen before you engage and you will most likely be good to go for quite a while.

    Magplars too
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
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    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
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    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    @xSylvanasWindrunner
    Pariah will obviously make you more tanky and with 29k HP you should be able to see the benefit of the really high resistances at low HP. At this stage it's really up to matching a set up with your playstyle. If you can survive at less then ~68% HP for extended periods, keeping in mind low HP players tend to draw agro of even more players (so kind of good for helping your allies :P), then Pariah will work for you.

    If you prefer to keep your HP constantly topped up, then the higher mitigation of Impregnable at high HP might benefit you more. One other factor in Impregnables favour is it allows you to run alternate traits, the degree to which this benefits your build is your judgement call to make :).

    Pariah has a nice Combo Wombo on magicka based builds running equilibrium (yup). Throw Vamp in the equation and it's even better
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Taylor_MB wrote: »
    @Baranthus There is absolutely benefit from wearing two defensive sets, they will not cancel each other out anything, but will still be effected by diminishing mitigation returns. So just using a very simple scenario so it's easy to follow;

    Opponent Stats
    Penetration = 0
    Crit Chance = 50%
    Crit Damage Modifier = 1.5 (the default)

    Your Stats
    Your Base Resistances = 0
    Your base Crit Resistance = 0

    Mitigation
    Impregnable = 14.7%
    Fortified Brass = 12.3%

    Impregnable & Fortified Brass = 25.2%
    Mitigation "lost" due to diminishing returns = 1.8%


    So wearing both sets does increase your overall mitigation, but after your first mitigation source reduces damage, all the other mitigation sources reduce that already reduced damage (thus diminishing returns). 1.8% might not seem like too much lost, but when you stack champion points, resistances, impenetrable trait, major/minor protection and even occasional blocking ontop of that it will increase dramatically. More mitigation will always reduce your damage taken, but the actual number each new source mitigates will be reduced.



    Following on from what @Maulkin said. With the following set type combinations you generally get these rough results:

    2x Defensive = troll tank
    1x Defensive + 1x Offensive = tanky + burst dps with ult (or just a non-squish dps) (or a healer)
    1x Defense + 1x Regen = tanky + utility (thinking talons, chains, purge, general debuffer) (or a healer)

    You can run 2x defensive sets and still be DPS orientated, but you'll find the pool of players you can actually kill is quite limited, so definitely recommend experimenting a little with different combinations.

    Hope that helps!

    Currently on my mDK i'm running Alma mercy and Alessia's Bulwark. I sit around 23k spell (21 k phys dmg) without using Volatile (then it hits 28 k aprox). And that's with 5 pieces Light armor.

    Of course, I need to run defensive swords for extra resistance and slimecraw for extra dmg, but it's a decent set up. Only "problem" is your magicka pool, but with 5 LA pieces, that's not really a problem (cost reduction and magicka regen)

    And it crits.
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • TheDoomsdayMonster
    TheDoomsdayMonster
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    Xvorg wrote: »
    Ok...

    I believe I've shut every argument against me and the Combat Physician gear set down at this point...

    So now I'll exit (unless certain people start to spew more sewage from their pie holes of course)...

    :)

    You didn't answer none of my arguments on why CP bubble is less efficient than other bubbles

    CP is just an expensive one

    Even Almalexia's Mercy is a better defensive set than CP

    I missed your post about Almelaxia's Mercy vs Combat Physician earlier in the thread the 1st time, so I didn't respond to it for that reason...

    But now that I've seen it, I see the flaws in your reasoning against it and will tackle what you said later on as I'm not in position to do so at this time...
    Unyeilding Bias
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    The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Xvorg wrote: »
    Ok...

    I believe I've shut every argument against me and the Combat Physician gear set down at this point...

    So now I'll exit (unless certain people start to spew more sewage from their pie holes of course)...

    :)

    You didn't answer none of my arguments on why CP bubble is less efficient than other bubbles

    CP is just an expensive one

    Even Almalexia's Mercy is a better defensive set than CP

    I missed your post about Almelaxia's Mercy vs Combat Physician earlier in the thread the 1st time, so I didn't respond to it for that reason...

    But now that I've seen it, I see the flaws in your reasoning against it and will tackle what you said later on as I'm not in position to do so at this time...

    Let me ask you, why is CP better than, for example, Para Bellum?

    I didn't ask anything related to Alma
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • TheDoomsdayMonster
    TheDoomsdayMonster
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    Xvorg wrote: »
    IMO, CP seems too inefficient. Sure, it could get some great mitigation as the bubble stands up, but that bubble has a cost associated, which is the heal. It means that, if you haven't received dmg, you cannot proc it, contrary to other bubbles, such has harness, or annulment, that can be casted out of a fight.

    In the case of HoT it turns into a RGN roulette to get the crit (IDK if it proc on HoTs). The thing is that if yo go for burst to proc it, it can be a waste of magicka to make it work. For example, a mDK using Cblood as main heal could have big problems with that set unless he builds towards crit... but it is quite uncommon to see a mDK using crits as main feature, unless they're healers.

    So, understanding that you need magicka to proc the set, it comes the comparison. Hardened or Annulment both give something back for the price you have to spend on them, same as Igneous or even sun shield. When compare it with other set shields, such as Imperium or Swift, the price is too high (both shields can proc on a minimum dmg received). Not to mention Hatchling shell, which is for free and has some more than decent mitigation stats, and Para Bellum, which works quite well for opening (and can be combined with another more reliable bubble). Even good old Whitestrake's works exactly when you need it (30% heath). The last two of them provide bigger shields and can eventually work together.

    There's another flaw I see on CP. If it does work on crit heals, it means your healing must be your strongest feature, so it works based on mitigation... so it is mitigation (heal) over mitigation (bubble). There's a skill that works similar to that and does it better: Healing ward. That wonderful skill is mitigation (bubble) over mitigation (heal) and escalates based on how small is your health pool... and has no CD associated. The best part of the comparsisson is the fact that you don't need a strong healing based build to use Ward, while CP only works well for healers.

    After that analisis, comparing a set that procs on every crit received, applying minor maim for 15 sec on any enemy hitting you, and that has no CD (and no cost) with a very expensive weak shield that requires you to build towards it, seems... how to put it? Oh, yeah...
    .
    .
    .
    Naive...

    Ok...lets go.


    1st off, Combat Physician is not inefficient at all; its the exact opposite as its very efficient...

    As a Magicka Templar, maintaining stacking HoT's (and Mutagen/Rapid Regen are very cheap) while possessing a high Spell Crit (mines is at 63%) will almost guarantee that the Damage Shield procs on cooldown consistently...

    As a Magicka Templar, stacking HoT's is something that you should be doing anyway during combat, so whenever the damage shield procs, its essentially free...


    So no, the price for the damage shield is not too high as you get it for doing the things that you would be doing anyway during battle...

    This also applies to the offensive end as several DPS abilities will proc Combat Physician...

    With my current build Devouring Swarm, Invigorating Drain, and Purifying Light will proc the damage shield, and please note, that these are abilities that I will use anyway during battle, so once again, I am essentially getting the damage shield for free...


    And if you want to talk efficiency, Structured Entropy (which only cost me around 1100 Magicka on my build; its extremely cheap) can potentially proc the damage shield 3 times (it can potentially proc it on seconds 1, 7, and 13) on a single cast...

    If Structured Entropy is something that you slot, then its an ability that you'd use anyway during battle, and as a result if it procs Combat Physician, then the damage shield is free (with my 63% Spell Crit, it would reliably proc the damage shield 2 of the 3 healing crits on average)...


    Because of the fact that CP is very usable in a DPS capacity, your assertion that its only good for Healers is wrong; it works well for a DPS as it mitigates damage sustained while allowing you to continue to deal damage unhindered...

    And no, Healing does NOT have to be your strongest attribute to get good use from this set...

    The one thing that you must have to get good use from this set is a high Spell Crit and that is beneficial when you heal as well as when you dps...


    Conclusion:

    Your "analysis" that its naïve to use this set over Riposte is actually what is naïve here...

    CP has several significant advantages over Riposte and it would be foolish to pretend otherwise...


    Oh and btw, your knowledge of CP is what is lacking here...

    The Combat Physician Damage Shield is a modified version of Healing Ward; you get the Damage Shield and a Heal at the exact same time just as with Healing Ward, but CP doesn't scale with the damage you sustained and there is no heal at the end of the shield...

    Of course if you have a HoT going, you are getting continuous heals anyway, so the heal at the end of Healing Ward will pale to what is provided by Rapid Regen/Mutagen anyway...
    Unyeilding Bias
    PSN TheLordofMurder
    PS4 NA
    Magicka Templar
    DC
    The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s
  • TheDoomsdayMonster
    TheDoomsdayMonster
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Xvorg

    As pertains to Hatchlings Shell vs Combat Physician, CP beats it easily...

    Hatchlings Shell provides a much smaller damage shield than CP (8.2k for CP in PvE compared to 5k for Hatchlings Shell; so its 4.1k vs 2.5k in PvP) for starters...

    Inaddition, Hatchlings Shell can only proc 4 times a minute; I can proc CP up to 10 times a minute...

    I can give the CP damage shield to others (even NPC's), but Hatchlings Shell is self only...


    The one thing that Hatchlings Shell has over CP is that its completely free as there is no resource cost attached to it...

    That said, you can proc CP with some really cheap abilities, so IMHO, Hatchings Shell's free cost doesn't negate its downsides compared to CP...


    CP beats Hatchlings Shell soundly...

    I don't think there is much to debate as pertains to this...
    Unyeilding Bias
    PSN TheLordofMurder
    PS4 NA
    Magicka Templar
    DC
    The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s
  • TheDoomsdayMonster
    TheDoomsdayMonster
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Xvorg

    As pertains to Para Bellum, I've never used it as I rarely wear anything except 5 Light, I cant comment on it...

    Seems interesting though...
    Unyeilding Bias
    PSN TheLordofMurder
    PS4 NA
    Magicka Templar
    DC
    The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    @Xvorg

    As pertains to Para Bellum, I've never used it as I rarely wear anything except 5 Light, I cant comment on it...

    Seems interesting though...

    Just one question: if you consider heal as mitigation, and you need to stack a lot of crit chance to make CP work, why not only stack more healing instead of going for the bubble?

    CPs bubble doesn't bring anything else to the table, in fact any stam using bone shield next patch is going to provide a stronger shield through the synergy
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • Minno
    Minno
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Getting back on topic, @Taylor_MB is there a reason pirate skeleton was not included? Curious now that there might be a set that increases the buff duration to 16 seconds while the cooldown remains 12.
  • TheDoomsdayMonster
    TheDoomsdayMonster
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Xvorg wrote: »
    @Xvorg

    As pertains to Para Bellum, I've never used it as I rarely wear anything except 5 Light, I cant comment on it...

    Seems interesting though...

    Just one question: if you consider heal as mitigation, and you need to stack a lot of crit chance to make CP work, why not only stack more healing instead of going for the bubble?

    CPs bubble doesn't bring anything else to the table, in fact any stam using bone shield next patch is going to provide a stronger shield through the synergy

    Because CP has things going for it that raw healing doesnt...

    A damage shield negates an enemies ability to deal critical damage to you; extra healing cant provide that...

    The damage shield can protect me while I am in Mist Form; raw healing cant...


    As pertains to Bone Shield, I am Magicka, not Stamina, so what Bone Shield gives means nothing to me...

    As a Magicka build, I can give a 4.1k damage shield every 6 secs, and that seems pretty good as far as I can tell...
    Unyeilding Bias
    PSN TheLordofMurder
    PS4 NA
    Magicka Templar
    DC
    The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Xvorg wrote: »
    @Xvorg

    As pertains to Para Bellum, I've never used it as I rarely wear anything except 5 Light, I cant comment on it...

    Seems interesting though...

    Just one question: if you consider heal as mitigation, and you need to stack a lot of crit chance to make CP work, why not only stack more healing instead of going for the bubble?

    CPs bubble doesn't bring anything else to the table, in fact any stam using bone shield next patch is going to provide a stronger shield through the synergy

    Because CP has things going for it that raw healing doesnt...

    A damage shield negates an enemies ability to deal critical damage to you; extra healing cant provide that...

    The damage shield can protect me while I am in Mist Form; raw healing cant...


    As pertains to Bone Shield, I am Magicka, not Stamina, so what Bone Shield gives means nothing to me...

    As a Magicka build, I can give a 4.1k damage shield every 6 secs, and that seems pretty good as far as I can tell...

    Damage shields can be critted, though it's not refected on numbers. So anyone using a shield can proc Riposte

    Regarding bone shield, it s not the casting it is the synergy and that one is available for everyone. In fact
    [*]Bone Wall and Spinal Surge (Bone Shield & morphs)
    • The prompt will now be available up to 6 seconds after Bone Shield is cast, even if the Bone Shield caster’s damage shield is removed.
    • Grants a damage shield for 100% of your Max Health for 6 seconds, instead of 60% of your Max Health for 10 seconds.
      Developer Comments:
      We’ve shortened the duration of this damage shield to match the duration of all other damage shields in the game, but increased the value of the shield to compensate.
    • If an ally uses the synergy and applies the damage shield to you, you will now also be placed on cooldown for that synergy.
    • The Spinal Surge synergy from the Bone Surge morph now grants Major Vitality instead of Minor Vitality.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4762855/#Comment_4762855

    100% max shield capped at 50% due to BS makes it a base 10k shield if you have 20k health and no CP in bastion (which is considerend low) by just pressing the synergy button. Though the CD must be worked around for this shield
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • TheDoomsdayMonster
    TheDoomsdayMonster
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Xvorg wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »
    @Xvorg

    As pertains to Para Bellum, I've never used it as I rarely wear anything except 5 Light, I cant comment on it...

    Seems interesting though...

    Just one question: if you consider heal as mitigation, and you need to stack a lot of crit chance to make CP work, why not only stack more healing instead of going for the bubble?

    CPs bubble doesn't bring anything else to the table, in fact any stam using bone shield next patch is going to provide a stronger shield through the synergy

    Because CP has things going for it that raw healing doesnt...

    A damage shield negates an enemies ability to deal critical damage to you; extra healing cant provide that...

    The damage shield can protect me while I am in Mist Form; raw healing cant...


    As pertains to Bone Shield, I am Magicka, not Stamina, so what Bone Shield gives means nothing to me...

    As a Magicka build, I can give a 4.1k damage shield every 6 secs, and that seems pretty good as far as I can tell...

    Damage shields can be critted, though it's not refected on numbers. So anyone using a shield can proc Riposte

    Regarding bone shield, it s not the casting it is the synergy and that one is available for everyone. In fact
    [*]Bone Wall and Spinal Surge (Bone Shield & morphs)
    • The prompt will now be available up to 6 seconds after Bone Shield is cast, even if the Bone Shield caster’s damage shield is removed.
    • Grants a damage shield for 100% of your Max Health for 6 seconds, instead of 60% of your Max Health for 10 seconds.
      Developer Comments:
      We’ve shortened the duration of this damage shield to match the duration of all other damage shields in the game, but increased the value of the shield to compensate.
    • If an ally uses the synergy and applies the damage shield to you, you will now also be placed on cooldown for that synergy.
    • The Spinal Surge synergy from the Bone Surge morph now grants Major Vitality instead of Minor Vitality.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4762855/#Comment_4762855

    100% max shield capped at 50% due to BS makes it a base 10k shield if you have 20k health and no CP in bastion (which is considerend low) by just pressing the synergy button. Though the CD must be worked around for this shield

    Ok...great that Spinal Surge got a big buff...good for those who use this ability.

    It seems a bit overtuned, but whatever...


    You asked me why I don't stack healing instead of using CP and I answered your question, so why are you bringing up Spinal Surge?

    This seems a bit off topic as far as I can see...


    Unyeilding Bias
    PSN TheLordofMurder
    PS4 NA
    Magicka Templar
    DC
    The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s
  • Xvorg
    Xvorg
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Xvorg wrote: »
    Xvorg wrote: »
    @Xvorg

    As pertains to Para Bellum, I've never used it as I rarely wear anything except 5 Light, I cant comment on it...

    Seems interesting though...

    Just one question: if you consider heal as mitigation, and you need to stack a lot of crit chance to make CP work, why not only stack more healing instead of going for the bubble?

    CPs bubble doesn't bring anything else to the table, in fact any stam using bone shield next patch is going to provide a stronger shield through the synergy

    Because CP has things going for it that raw healing doesnt...

    A damage shield negates an enemies ability to deal critical damage to you; extra healing cant provide that...

    The damage shield can protect me while I am in Mist Form; raw healing cant...


    As pertains to Bone Shield, I am Magicka, not Stamina, so what Bone Shield gives means nothing to me...

    As a Magicka build, I can give a 4.1k damage shield every 6 secs, and that seems pretty good as far as I can tell...

    Damage shields can be critted, though it's not refected on numbers. So anyone using a shield can proc Riposte

    Regarding bone shield, it s not the casting it is the synergy and that one is available for everyone. In fact
    [*]Bone Wall and Spinal Surge (Bone Shield & morphs)
    • The prompt will now be available up to 6 seconds after Bone Shield is cast, even if the Bone Shield caster’s damage shield is removed.
    • Grants a damage shield for 100% of your Max Health for 6 seconds, instead of 60% of your Max Health for 10 seconds.
      Developer Comments:
      We’ve shortened the duration of this damage shield to match the duration of all other damage shields in the game, but increased the value of the shield to compensate.
    • If an ally uses the synergy and applies the damage shield to you, you will now also be placed on cooldown for that synergy.
    • The Spinal Surge synergy from the Bone Surge morph now grants Major Vitality instead of Minor Vitality.
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4762855/#Comment_4762855

    100% max shield capped at 50% due to BS makes it a base 10k shield if you have 20k health and no CP in bastion (which is considerend low) by just pressing the synergy button. Though the CD must be worked around for this shield

    Ok...great that Spinal Surge got a big buff...good for those who use this ability.

    It seems a bit overtuned, but whatever...


    You asked me why I don't stack healing instead of using CP and I answered your question, so why are you bringing up Spinal Surge?

    This seems a bit off topic as far as I can see...


    My complain about CP is that you need to use magicka to make it viable. There are other (stronger) shields that also use resources to be activated and give an additional bonus. Bone shield gives Major vitality (synergy is for free), Igeneous gives major mending, Harness gives magicka return, barrier heals and gives magicka and ulti back. CP is the only shield that cost magicka and gives nothing, besides a lame bubble. Then what's the point in using a set that gives you nothing, instead of a skill that's does much better for you? Because CP is used in a magicka based char, and those have (easy) access to annulment.

    So, imho it is a bad choice not only for mitigation, but also in the extra bonus it gives. Its design is just bad (came with IC patch when there was no BS and CP CD wasn't that big), so I believe ZoS should whether improve it (together other sets ncluding most crafted sets) or erase it.
    Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly

    I was born with the wrong sign
    In the wrong house
    With the wrong ascendancy
    I took the wrong road
    That led to the wrong tendencies
    I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
    For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
    On the wrong day of the wrong week
    Used the wrong method with the wrong technique
  • ManDraKE
    ManDraKE
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    Amazing thread, thanks for the effort. And it confirms what we already knew, minor maim needs to be nerfed.
    Edited by ManDraKE on January 10, 2018 3:15PM
  • paulsimonps
    paulsimonps
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    ✭✭✭
    ManDraKE wrote: »
    Amazing thread, thanks for the effort. And it confirms what we already knew, minor maim needs to be nerfed.

    No, it really really really does not...... How did you come to that conclusion?
  • ManDraKE
    ManDraKE
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ManDraKE wrote: »
    Amazing thread, thanks for the effort. And it confirms what we already knew, minor maim needs to be nerfed.

    No, it really really really does not...... How did you come to that conclusion?

    It provides to much mitigation, and dosn't have a counter-buff, for example Minor protection/vulnerability are only 8%.
    On top of that, we have to consider wizard's riposte, AoE minor mail with 100% uptime that you can backbar. And this is not an exclusive problem with wizard's riposte, there is a reason why in duels you will a ton of people running low slash, shade and other sources of minor mailm. Is too strong of a buff that dosn't have a proper counter-buff.

    @Taylor_MB if is not too much to ask, could you add maces to the penetration info boxes, to make the calculations easier.
    Edited by ManDraKE on January 10, 2018 4:05PM
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