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Damage Mitigation: Explanation UPDATED 21/03/2021
paulsimonps
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Hello everyone! A long overdue update to this thread has now been made. Many changes were made, lots of values got changes since I last updated this and the new champion point system changed a lot as well. But lets get into it.
CALCULATIONS:
We will start off with the base calculations with only your own mitigation. There are two main ways that mitigation works, BEFORE or AFTER a damage shield has been hit. This means that some sources of mitigation will reduce the damage taken before a damage shield takes damage from the attack and others will reduce the damage that overflows from a potentially depleted shield. However, if there is no damage shield then all sources count as being on the same level. The only known sources of mitigation AFTER a damage shield is the base blocking mitigation and any source that says "increases the amount of damage you can block by x%" or similar, all other sources of mitigation is applied BEFORE a damage shield.
Now with the change of the champion point system there are some sources of damage mitigation that stack additive together before being multiplied in. Hardy/Elemental Aegis+Preparation+Duelist Rebuff/Unassailable/Enduring Resolve. These stack together. Hardy and Elemental Aegis obviously can't be used at the same time cause of the different damage types, however the 3 damage forms work differently depending on how many are used. Enduring Resolve can work at the same time as Duelist Rebuff or Unassailable however only one of them can stack additive with the rest at any given time, the other one gets multiplied in as a separate source. They stack additive with the one that has the largest value if their values differ. Juggernaut is the only non block related Champion skill that does not stack additive with the rest, it acts like a unique source.
The other two Champion skills are both related to blocking, "Fortification" and "On Guard", they both stack additive together with all other sources of extra block mitigation. They can all work at the same time, and stacking multiple sources can give you quite a lot of mitigation. With the addition of the advanced stats screen its really easy to keep track of how much block mitigation you got, it will even do the calculations for you. One thing to note though is that "On Guard" will only be added to that stat if you are currently CC immune, and skills like Bound Aegis and Immovable will only appear while the skill is active. Deflect bolts however, being situational to only ranged and projectile will not appear at all, so has to be taken into account by yourself. Now something else fairly important for some to know is that blocking mitigation is capped at 90% this is cause it was possible to achieve mitigation past 100% making you immortal. Had that not been implemented, with this update, it would have been even easier to pull off, I got 107.5% without really trying. Oh and the current advanced stat screen will still show values past 90% for some reason, should probably be looked at.
The heavy armor bonus that grants extra blocking mitigation, behaves in a way I was not expecting. Instead of being additive with all the other sources like previously mentioned it is added into the blocking mitigation after the extra blocking mitigation has been multiplied with the base blocking. This prevents some of the diminishing returns on the bonus, making it much stronger than one might first see. The light and heavy armor bonuses for magical or martial mitigation is applied additive to the base mitigation making them slightly stronger as well. Lastly before showing and example of the formula I will mention that we now have a 10% base mitigation applied to us at all times and battlespirit for PvP has been reduced to 44% instead of 50%.
The way you would use this template is to replace the place holders with the percentage numbers that is show in the tool-tips in the game and obviously the resistance should be the number of which ever resistance you want to test with. If you have more sources then just add more to fill your needs in the same way that is shown. Now something you might notice is that this way of calculating will result in diminishing returns, what that means is that for each added mitigation source the usefulness of each individual source gets reduced. As an example, having 2 sources that give 50% mitigation will give you a total of 75% mitigation. This now again has an exception with extra blocking mitigation and certain CP as they stack additive with one another, to add in the additive CP into the form just copy the way that extra blocking is done.
Lets do some examples using things the average tank would use. Lets make it a Dragonknight, for obvious reasons. So they would have 50% from blocking, lets say 40% from resistance, 5% from minor maim, 10% from the Iron Skin Passive and 20% from the Sword and Board Passive and 10% from base mitigation. The calculations would look like this:
So with all of those sources added together we ended up with a total of 82.045% of the damage we take being mitigated. Now if we want to apply these calculations to see how much damage we would be taking from a hit we would just change it to be like this:
As you can see, even though the base damage we would have taken without mitigation was really high, just a few sources can drastically reduce the damage taken. Now I want to show you guys how this type of calculations would work if a damage shield was involved, cause as I previously explained blocking only mitigates damage that overflows from a depleted damage shield, while everything else will mitigate damage before the shield gets hit. If we use our previous example as our base but then add in a damage shield with the strength of 5000 it would look like this:
In this case Minor Maim will hit first, as it applies to the attacker rather than the caster, secondly we have the base mitigation, and third resistance which was previously grouped with blocking but has since Murkmire been moved to be BEFORE the damage shield takes damage. Everything else mitigates damage AFTER the damage shield. Now on to the next bit in terms of calculations:
VULNERABILITIES:
Now since last I updated this thread vulnerabilities have gotten a big change. For those that don't know, vulnerabilities are effects that increases the damage that you take. With the changes to Light and Heavy armor we got 2 new sources of vulnerability, as wearing light armor makes you take 1% extra martial damage per piece and heavy does the same for magical damage. Now the way that vulnerability used to work is that they used to be additive together and then the first few mitigation sources would subtract them, this has changed slightly. What happens now is that vulnerability affects the base mitigation that you have. So for example if you have your 10% base mitigation with 5% from say Minor Vulnerability then you get only 5% base mitigation. Whats interesting here though is of course that the light and heavy armor bonuses also works upon the base mitigation that you have. So if you have your 10% base and get attacked with magic damage while under Minor Vulnerability but you have 5 pieces of light armor then you get to keep your base 10% as the 5% from light armor removes the 5% from Minor Vulnerability.
Now when the vulnerability outweighs the base mitigation then you obviously start taking a bit more damage. Something like Stage 3 or 4 Vampire against fire damage would do the trick on that. Now let me show you two examples. One with 7 Light bonus against Minor Vulnerability and then 5 Light Penalty working with Stage 4 Vampire
Last one would show that you would take 17% extra damage. Any extra vulnerability would be added on just like in example 2. Now lets show how this would work from the last example we used with Damage Shields. We will add Stage 4 Vampire and Heavy armor Penalty.
RESISTANCE:
So there are two main types of resistance which are Spell and Physical, but each of them also have sub categories. Spell resistance has Flame, Frost and Shock resistance and Physical has Poison and Disease resistance. Now one important thing to know about resistance is that there is a Hard Cap, that means that after you reach a certain point it won't give you anything extra. For Champion point 160+ characters the hard cap for resistance is 33,000, or 660 resistance per 1% mitigated, which then tops it of at 50%. You can have more resistance than what the hard cap allows but it won't give you more mitigation, however, in PvP if someone debuffs you then having resistance above the hard cap can sometimes allow you to stay at hard cap if the debuff is to weak or your buffed resistance is strong enough.
Another thing we need to address now is how those sub categories work with the main resistance types. Sub categories adds to their main type whenever the attack element is of the same element. As an example, if I have 15000 spell resistance and 5000 flame resistance then if I get attack with a fire spell then I will have 20000 spell resistance against that attack. One thing to note here is that if your Spell or Physical resistance is already at hard cap then your sub categories will not add anything, since they are just temporary increases to the main type if attacked by the right element. But again if you get debuffed then anything above hard cap will help you stay up. Last thing to note about the sub categories is that since they are in its base form just adding to their main type then if someone penetrates your Spell or Physical resistance then they will penetrate your sub categories too.
One last thing to remember is that even though players no longer has a base 100 penetration the mobs in PvE still do. So when trying to calculate your resistance in a PvE scenario one should always account for that. Penetration is of course a subtraction of your resistance so for example if you have 15000 resistance then against someone with 5000 penetration you only have 10000 resistance and then in PvE if you have 33000 resistance you will still not be at the proper cap as against PvE mobs you only have 32900. But now on to the next part of this thread and last form of resistance.
CRITICAL RESISTANCE:
Now critical resistance works very differently from the other forms of resistance. What it does is it lowers the enemy players critical hit damage modifier. A characters base modifier is 1.5 which means that if you land a critical hit then you deal 50% more damage. There are ways to improve this, such as minor and major force. What we are gonna be looking at of course is how we can reduce that modifier. This one is yet another subtraction one. Your critical resistance will lower the attackers critical modifier by a rate of 1% for every 68 critical resistance. This means that to remove an attackers base critical modifier you need 3400 critical resistance. It looks like this:
As this is the final calculation I will add this into our previous example and see how it all works in its entirety.
I will add here though that 150,000 base damage is PvE numbers and PvE mobs cannot critically hit, but it goes to show that even just 25% extra critical damage can deal a lot more damage if your mitigation against it is not enough.
As a final note, I probably have a bit more to test to double check all possible combinations but I wanted to get this update out there, if you see anything wrong in the thread that I need to edit then let me know, and obviously if I messed up big times or forgot to test a specific scenario let me know.
Edited by paulsimonps on March 21, 2021 8:30PM CALCULATIONS:
We will start off with the base calculations with only your own mitigation. There are two main ways that mitigation works, BEFORE or AFTER a damage shield has been hit. This means that some sources of mitigation will reduce the damage taken before a damage shield takes damage from the attack and others will reduce the damage that overflows from a potentially depleted shield. However, if there is no damage shield then all sources count as being on the same level. The only known sources of mitigation AFTER a damage shield is the base blocking mitigation and any source that says "increases the amount of damage you can block by x%" or similar, all other sources of mitigation is applied BEFORE a damage shield.
Now with the change of the champion point system there are some sources of damage mitigation that stack additive together before being multiplied in. Hardy/Elemental Aegis+Preparation+Duelist Rebuff/Unassailable/Enduring Resolve. These stack together. Hardy and Elemental Aegis obviously can't be used at the same time cause of the different damage types, however the 3 damage forms work differently depending on how many are used. Enduring Resolve can work at the same time as Duelist Rebuff or Unassailable however only one of them can stack additive with the rest at any given time, the other one gets multiplied in as a separate source. They stack additive with the one that has the largest value if their values differ. Juggernaut is the only non block related Champion skill that does not stack additive with the rest, it acts like a unique source.
The other two Champion skills are both related to blocking, "Fortification" and "On Guard", they both stack additive together with all other sources of extra block mitigation. They can all work at the same time, and stacking multiple sources can give you quite a lot of mitigation. With the addition of the advanced stats screen its really easy to keep track of how much block mitigation you got, it will even do the calculations for you. One thing to note though is that "On Guard" will only be added to that stat if you are currently CC immune, and skills like Bound Aegis and Immovable will only appear while the skill is active. Deflect bolts however, being situational to only ranged and projectile will not appear at all, so has to be taken into account by yourself. Now something else fairly important for some to know is that blocking mitigation is capped at 90% this is cause it was possible to achieve mitigation past 100% making you immortal. Had that not been implemented, with this update, it would have been even easier to pull off, I got 107.5% without really trying. Oh and the current advanced stat screen will still show values past 90% for some reason, should probably be looked at.
The heavy armor bonus that grants extra blocking mitigation, behaves in a way I was not expecting. Instead of being additive with all the other sources like previously mentioned it is added into the blocking mitigation after the extra blocking mitigation has been multiplied with the base blocking. This prevents some of the diminishing returns on the bonus, making it much stronger than one might first see. The light and heavy armor bonuses for magical or martial mitigation is applied additive to the base mitigation making them slightly stronger as well. Lastly before showing and example of the formula I will mention that we now have a 10% base mitigation applied to us at all times and battlespirit for PvP has been reduced to 44% instead of 50%.
Total Mitigation=100-100*(1-Battlespirit/100)*(1-Base Mitigation+Light Armor or Heavy Armor/100)*(1-Mitigation #1/100)*(1-Mitigation #2/100)*(1-(Resistance/660)/100)*((1-Blocking/100)*(1-(Extra blocking #1+Extra blocking #2)/100)-Heavy Block/100)
Damage Taken=Base Damage*(1-Battlespirit/100)*(1-Base Mitigation+Light Armor or Heavy Armor/100)*(1-Mitigation #1/100)*(1-Mitigation #2/100)*(1-(Resistance/660)/100)*((1-Blocking/100)*(1-(Extra blocking #1+Extra blocking #2)/100)-Heavy Block/100)
The way you would use this template is to replace the place holders with the percentage numbers that is show in the tool-tips in the game and obviously the resistance should be the number of which ever resistance you want to test with. If you have more sources then just add more to fill your needs in the same way that is shown. Now something you might notice is that this way of calculating will result in diminishing returns, what that means is that for each added mitigation source the usefulness of each individual source gets reduced. As an example, having 2 sources that give 50% mitigation will give you a total of 75% mitigation. This now again has an exception with extra blocking mitigation and certain CP as they stack additive with one another, to add in the additive CP into the form just copy the way that extra blocking is done.
Lets do some examples using things the average tank would use. Lets make it a Dragonknight, for obvious reasons. So they would have 50% from blocking, lets say 40% from resistance, 5% from minor maim, 10% from the Iron Skin Passive and 20% from the Sword and Board Passive and 10% from base mitigation. The calculations would look like this:
100-(100*(1-5/100)*(1-10/100)*(1-(26400/660)/100)*(1-50/100)*(1-(10+20)/100))=82.045
So with all of those sources added together we ended up with a total of 82.045% of the damage we take being mitigated. Now if we want to apply these calculations to see how much damage we would be taking from a hit we would just change it to be like this:
150,000*(1-5/100)*(1-10/100)*(1-(26400/660)/100)*(1-50/100)*(1-(10+20)/100))=26,932
As you can see, even though the base damage we would have taken without mitigation was really high, just a few sources can drastically reduce the damage taken. Now I want to show you guys how this type of calculations would work if a damage shield was involved, cause as I previously explained blocking only mitigates damage that overflows from a depleted damage shield, while everything else will mitigate damage before the shield gets hit. If we use our previous example as our base but then add in a damage shield with the strength of 5000 it would look like this:
(150,000*(1-5/100)*(1-10/100)*(1-(26400/660)/100)-5000)*(1-50/100)*(1-(10+20)/100))=25,182
In this case Minor Maim will hit first, as it applies to the attacker rather than the caster, secondly we have the base mitigation, and third resistance which was previously grouped with blocking but has since Murkmire been moved to be BEFORE the damage shield takes damage. Everything else mitigates damage AFTER the damage shield. Now on to the next bit in terms of calculations:
VULNERABILITIES:
Now since last I updated this thread vulnerabilities have gotten a big change. For those that don't know, vulnerabilities are effects that increases the damage that you take. With the changes to Light and Heavy armor we got 2 new sources of vulnerability, as wearing light armor makes you take 1% extra martial damage per piece and heavy does the same for magical damage. Now the way that vulnerability used to work is that they used to be additive together and then the first few mitigation sources would subtract them, this has changed slightly. What happens now is that vulnerability affects the base mitigation that you have. So for example if you have your 10% base mitigation with 5% from say Minor Vulnerability then you get only 5% base mitigation. Whats interesting here though is of course that the light and heavy armor bonuses also works upon the base mitigation that you have. So if you have your 10% base and get attacked with magic damage while under Minor Vulnerability but you have 5 pieces of light armor then you get to keep your base 10% as the 5% from light armor removes the 5% from Minor Vulnerability.
Now when the vulnerability outweighs the base mitigation then you obviously start taking a bit more damage. Something like Stage 3 or 4 Vampire against fire damage would do the trick on that. Now let me show you two examples. One with 7 Light bonus against Minor Vulnerability and then 5 Light Penalty working with Stage 4 Vampire
Total Mitigation=100-100*(1-(10+7-5)/100)=12%
Total Mitigation=100-100*(1-(10-7-20)/100)=-17%
Last one would show that you would take 17% extra damage. Any extra vulnerability would be added on just like in example 2. Now lets show how this would work from the last example we used with Damage Shields. We will add Stage 4 Vampire and Heavy armor Penalty.
(150,000*(1-5/100)*(1-(10-7-20)/100)*(1-(26400/660)/100)-5000)*(1-50/100)*(1-(10+20)/100))=33,262
RESISTANCE:
So there are two main types of resistance which are Spell and Physical, but each of them also have sub categories. Spell resistance has Flame, Frost and Shock resistance and Physical has Poison and Disease resistance. Now one important thing to know about resistance is that there is a Hard Cap, that means that after you reach a certain point it won't give you anything extra. For Champion point 160+ characters the hard cap for resistance is 33,000, or 660 resistance per 1% mitigated, which then tops it of at 50%. You can have more resistance than what the hard cap allows but it won't give you more mitigation, however, in PvP if someone debuffs you then having resistance above the hard cap can sometimes allow you to stay at hard cap if the debuff is to weak or your buffed resistance is strong enough.
Another thing we need to address now is how those sub categories work with the main resistance types. Sub categories adds to their main type whenever the attack element is of the same element. As an example, if I have 15000 spell resistance and 5000 flame resistance then if I get attack with a fire spell then I will have 20000 spell resistance against that attack. One thing to note here is that if your Spell or Physical resistance is already at hard cap then your sub categories will not add anything, since they are just temporary increases to the main type if attacked by the right element. But again if you get debuffed then anything above hard cap will help you stay up. Last thing to note about the sub categories is that since they are in its base form just adding to their main type then if someone penetrates your Spell or Physical resistance then they will penetrate your sub categories too.
One last thing to remember is that even though players no longer has a base 100 penetration the mobs in PvE still do. So when trying to calculate your resistance in a PvE scenario one should always account for that. Penetration is of course a subtraction of your resistance so for example if you have 15000 resistance then against someone with 5000 penetration you only have 10000 resistance and then in PvE if you have 33000 resistance you will still not be at the proper cap as against PvE mobs you only have 32900. But now on to the next part of this thread and last form of resistance.
CRITICAL RESISTANCE:
Now critical resistance works very differently from the other forms of resistance. What it does is it lowers the enemy players critical hit damage modifier. A characters base modifier is 1.5 which means that if you land a critical hit then you deal 50% more damage. There are ways to improve this, such as minor and major force. What we are gonna be looking at of course is how we can reduce that modifier. This one is yet another subtraction one. Your critical resistance will lower the attackers critical modifier by a rate of 1% for every 68 critical resistance. This means that to remove an attackers base critical modifier you need 3400 critical resistance. It looks like this:
CRITICAL MODIFIER=1.5+(Critical Damage Buff #1/100)+(Critical Damage Buff #2/100)-(Critical Resistance/68/100)
Damage Taken=15000*(1.5-(1700/68/100))=18750
As this is the final calculation I will add this into our previous example and see how it all works in its entirety.
(150,000*(1.5-(1700/68/100))*(1-5/100)*(1-(10-7-20)/100)*(1-(26400/660)/100)-5000)*(1-50/100)*(1-(10+20)/100))=42,015
I will add here though that 150,000 base damage is PvE numbers and PvE mobs cannot critically hit, but it goes to show that even just 25% extra critical damage can deal a lot more damage if your mitigation against it is not enough.
As a final note, I probably have a bit more to test to double check all possible combinations but I wanted to get this update out there, if you see anything wrong in the thread that I need to edit then let me know, and obviously if I messed up big times or forgot to test a specific scenario let me know.
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I see you mentioned critical damage mitigation prior to shield,
Does this mean in order to not be hit with any critical damage because a shield is involved, that shield must prevent all of the damage?
So if I have a 2000 shield and my opponent (apparently) scores a crit, with a base damage of 3000, I'm still gonna take 2500 to the face after the shield damage is removed? (Just ignoring all other mitigation for simplicity)
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Forestd16b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Does it matter ? With how OP penetration and resistance reduction skills are resistance mitigation isn't really the most reliable source of defense which is why you still aren't seeing to many HA users or tanks in PvP.
Don't even [to hawt for the forums] say Malubeth and perma-blocking. That is cheese build and any one using it are cheese players and are not in no way true tanks.Edited by Forestd16b14_ESO on July 17, 2016 2:40AM -
bigereard✭✭Hi Paul, thanks for the great post!
Missing from the list: 75% mist form & 15% light of cyrodiil, minor protection from restoring focus & potion.
And as far I know the minor protection is 8% instead of 15%, but cmiiw.
I once have tanky build that stack alot of damage reduction.
6% rugged, 25% light of cyrodiil (now only 15%), 19%+++ empowering sweep, 8%-12% Turn Undead (now 8%, restoring focus is better & cheaper), 22% Hardy & Elemental Defender, and up to 33% undeath.
Can reach 58%-75% damage resistance before resistance and battle spirit.
This about 80-100% damage resistance of blocking build.
But instead of perma-block, we can get this mitigation while spamming puncturing sweep, which deal great damage, and heal me decent amount. Or if we in supporting/survival mood we can spam lingering ritual (basically blocking and healing). Or if we need more ultimate we can throw invigorating drain. If we need more magicka we can heavy attack with our restoration staff.
All this activity is channeling and casting so most of the time the 25% damage reduction from light of cyrodiil is up.
With blood spawn (especially when the ultimate gain still 25), immovable, & immovable pots this build works wonder,, at least until they nerf light of cyrodiil second time to 15%.Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Does it matter ? With how OP penetration and resistance reduction skills are resistance mitigation isn't really the most reliable source of defense which is why you still aren't seeing to many HA users or tanks in PvP.
Don't even [to hawt for the forums] say Malubeth and perma-blocking. That is cheese build and any one using it are cheese players and are not in no way true tanks.
From long list of damage mitigation, penetration only works on 2 points: physical & spell resistance, the others mitigation only countered with minor vulnerability (8%). So it matter a lot for certain tanky build.
Malubeth not related with any damage reduction, I think you mean Blood Spawn?
Perma-blocking and being cheese is fine especially in Role Playing Game, some people actually want a cheesy role play.
The only problem is many of them think that their cheesy build is genuine...
I remember when ZoS removed stam regen while blocking, many of them think that ZoS removed tank from the game...
While we can still heal 100% missing health with one button, or stack 60k++ damage shield, or even get tons of damage reduction without even block... and more importantly the perma-block itself is still far from impossible. -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭When the secondary effect procs of Shock damage, you get Concussion, that gives besides a very small damage, Minor Maim for a few seconds."I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place". -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I will add those I missed and fix a few mistakes, thank you guys for helping me out there, great help.Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »Does it matter ? With how OP penetration and resistance reduction skills are resistance mitigation isn't really the most reliable source of defense which is why you still aren't seeing to many HA users or tanks in PvP.
Don't even [to hawt for the forums] say Malubeth and perma-blocking. That is cheese build and any one using it are cheese players and are not in no way true tanks.
I think you missed the part where I specifically said that this is only taking PvE into account, bringing PvP and Mitigation into the discussion was not asked for. That being said like @bigereard said only the Physical and Spell Resistance is effected by resistance reduction or penetration so stacking mitigation in other ways in PvP is actually very effective since the only way to go around it is to apply unmitigated damage which if I remember right only enchants can do. However with the exception of a few armor sets non of those other types of mitigation is linked to heavy armor.When the secondary effect procs of Shock damage, you get Concussion, that gives besides a very small damage, Minor Maim for a few seconds.
Thank you for that one, I did not know about that one. Pretty cool, I did know that Disease gave Minor Defile but yea cool that Shock gives Minor Maim. -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Waffennacht
I updated the OP to include a new part explaining critical hit resistance. It did not work as I first thought and so I added a part explaining what I found out through my testing. -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I dont tank, but really nice post, Paul. Thanks for getting punched in the face for the rest of us. HahaEbonheart Pact - PC/NA - 2,000+ CP
My Toons:
DKs: Oreyn ßearclaw - Dunmer, Bear-m'Athra - Khajiit, Bearzilla - Argonian
Sorcs: Bear Shot First - AR47 - Breton, Bearricane - Orc, Molag Bear - Khajiit
NBs: Bears Crafter - Bosmer, Bearblade - Khajiit, ßearblade - Dunmer (DC)
Temps: Gandalf Likes To Party - Altmer, Bearplar - Orc, Bearamedic - Argonian
Wardens: Warden Bearclaw - Altmer, Bear Jordan - Redguard, Bear's Hippie Girlfriend - Bosmer (DC)
Necros: Bearomancer - Dunmer, ßearßones - Orc, Bearona Virus - Breton
vKAHM, vSSHM, vCR+3, vAS+2, vHOFHM, vMOLHM, vSOHM, vHRCHM, vAAHM, vBRP, vDSA, DD, TTT, Flawless Conqueror-All Classes, Spirit Slayer
Speed Caps Explained -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Updated the OP. Added Armor of Transmutation to the list of critical hit resistance and added a section about the vampire vulnerability in combination with mitigation. -
Mix✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »I dont tank, but really nice post, Paul. Thanks for getting punched in the face for the rest of us. Haha
I'll second that! A lot of hard work here for the rest of us to use! -
Aedaryl✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hey, I didn't understand everything, can you simply answer to some questions ?
I'm wondering if vampire is a good idea for sorcerer in pvp (mean spamming shield)
Is the fire malus apply on shield (25% fire damage on the shield )?
Is the fighter guild malus apply on shield (20% more damage on shield with fighter ability) ?
Is mist form and undead passive apply the reduction on shield ?
Sorrry if the questions are silly...Edited by Aedaryl on July 25, 2016 8:19AM -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Guard doesn't apply at first, it applies after all mitigation is done. The transferred damage gets reduced by block and mitigation and you don't transfer anything if the damaged gets absorbed by shields.. You should recheck that
Nice work nonetheless.
@Destruent
So admittedly I did make a pretty big assumption on it and didn't actually test guard at the time. However, I was actually right about it. Went on PTS and tested guard out in multiple ways. I did find out some cool things. So Guard does apply its 30% mitigation before anything else, but any other mitigation that you as the protected has on then also gets applied on the damage that the caster gets hit by. Will update my OP with that and a few other things momentarily.Edited by paulsimonps on July 25, 2016 9:03PM -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭paulsimonps wrote: »Guard doesn't apply at first, it applies after all mitigation is done. The transferred damage gets reduced by block and mitigation and you don't transfer anything if the damaged gets absorbed by shields.. You should recheck that
Nice work nonetheless.
@Destruent
So admittedly I did make a pretty big assumption on it and didn't actually test guard at the time. However, I was actually right about it. Went on PTS and tested guard out in multiple ways. I did find out some cool things. So Guard does apply its 30% mitigation before anything else, but any other mitigation that you as the protected has on then also gets applied on the damage that the caster gets hit by. Will update my OP with that and a few other things momentarily.
@paulsimonps ,
Did you also test what happens if you pair up ?
Two players cast Guard on each other ?
That could be a nice way to duo very difficult content where neither of the duo taunts the Boss and a big boss hits that would normally kill one of the two, is now capped at 70%.
It could also be a way for Damage Dealers in a raid to pair up as mutal guarding pairs to get the 12% Minor Force and reduce their risk to die with a mistake"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place". -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »Guard doesn't apply at first, it applies after all mitigation is done. The transferred damage gets reduced by block and mitigation and you don't transfer anything if the damaged gets absorbed by shields.. You should recheck that
Nice work nonetheless.
@Destruent
So admittedly I did make a pretty big assumption on it and didn't actually test guard at the time. However, I was actually right about it. Went on PTS and tested guard out in multiple ways. I did find out some cool things. So Guard does apply its 30% mitigation before anything else, but any other mitigation that you as the protected has on then also gets applied on the damage that the caster gets hit by. Will update my OP with that and a few other things momentarily.
@paulsimonps ,
Did you also test what happens if you pair up ?
Two players cast Guard on each other ?
That could be a nice way to duo very difficult content where neither of the duo taunts the Boss and a big boss hits that would normally kill one of the two, is now capped at 70%.
It could also be a way for Damage Dealers in a raid to pair up as mutal guarding pairs to get the 12% Minor Force and reduce their risk to die with a mistake
@hrothbern
You can't guard each other. If you have guard slotted and someone else guards you your guards icon will switch to being the big X that is used to stop the spell. -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭OK, I have now updated the OP to include the explanation about Guard and all the information I have found about it so far through my testing. -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Hey, I didn't understand everything, can you simply answer to some questions ?
I'm wondering if vampire is a good idea for sorcerer in pvp (mean spamming shield)
Is the fire malus apply on shield (25% fire damage on the shield )?
Is the fighter guild malus apply on shield (20% more damage on shield with fighter ability) ?
Is mist form and undead passive apply the reduction on shield ?
Sorrry if the questions are silly...
It was a bit hard to understand what you meant first but to try and clear it up.
The fire vulnerability for vampire and the extra damage from fighters guild on vampires is applied BEFORE you take damage so it will make the damage you take on a damage shield larger aka it will deplete faster and more damage will overflow to you once depleted.
Mist form and Undeath reduces the damage you take before the shield takes damage. Which means that the damage that would overflow from a depleted shield would be less and might prevent a depletion as well if the attacks are weak enough. Do remember that the increase in damage from the fire and fighters guild stuff is applied before your own reduction. -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pairing up doesn't work, you cannot guard the player who guards you. you can only cancel the connection.
You cannot guard the last one, but it looks rly funny
@paulsimonps
When we tested guard we discovered the following:
player 1 guards player 2
The damage done to player 1 can be mitigated by:
- physical/spellresist of player 2
- player 2 blocks
- player 2 uses a damage shield (no damage transferred)
- physical/spellresist of player 1
- player 1 uses a damage shield
but it looks like, this is the same what you discovered ::)
We tested this on the live server, btw. But it seems they didn't change anything Noobplar -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭Edited by hrothbern on July 25, 2016 10:13PM"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place". -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭paulsimonps wrote: »Hey, I didn't understand everything, can you simply answer to some questions ?
I'm wondering if vampire is a good idea for sorcerer in pvp (mean spamming shield)
Is the fire malus apply on shield (25% fire damage on the shield )?
Is the fighter guild malus apply on shield (20% more damage on shield with fighter ability) ?
Is mist form and undead passive apply the reduction on shield ?
Sorrry if the questions are silly...
It was a bit hard to understand what you meant first but to try and clear it up.
The fire vulnerability for vampire and the extra damage from fighters guild on vampires is applied BEFORE you take damage so it will make the damage you take on a damage shield larger aka it will deplete faster and more damage will overflow to you once depleted.
Mist form and Undeath reduces the damage you take before the shield takes damage. Which means that the damage that would overflow from a depleted shield would be less and might prevent a depletion as well if the attacks are weak enough. Do remember that the increase in damage from the fire and fighters guild stuff is applied before your own reduction.
I do not want to highjack your great thread here @paulsimonps , but going into depth with reversed mitigations, I wonder if there are perhaps more malus effects to reckon with when you are a Vampire.
I know that when a NPC like a Scamp is hit by Shock Damage, you have a pretty good chance that the Scamp has suddenly a procced high damage hit called "Desintegration" + a Stun. And that "Desintegration" is NOT the Sorcerer "Implosion", because they scale differently from stats.
Reason: Scamps are vulnerable for Shock Damage.
A kind of "hidden" secondary elemental effect.
I now wonder if something similar happens with a Vampire who is vulnerable for fire, when hit by Fire Damage. Perhaps A vampire has noticed something like this ?
"I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place". -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Pairing up doesn't work, you cannot guard the player who guards you. you can only cancel the connection.
You cannot guard the last one, but it looks rly funny
@paulsimonps
When we tested guard we discovered the following:
player 1 guards player 2
The damage done to player 1 can be mitigated by:
- physical/spellresist of player 2
- player 2 blocks
- player 2 uses a damage shield (no damage transferred)
- physical/spellresist of player 1
- player 1 uses a damage shield
but it looks like, this is the same what you discovered ::)
We tested this on the live server, btw. But it seems they didn't change anything
@Destruent
My guess about the damage shield is this. If you tested with to low base damage and strong enough of a shield then the 42.9% of the damage shield that reduces the damage that is taken by the caster would hit Zero. That would be my guess cause we tested on multiple types of shields and they all did the same thing. I used the Obliterate attack done by the Giants next to Shatul Wayshrine in Wrothgar, its base damage is 8406. Oh and I am 100% sure that the sword and board passives, the DK passive and the CP passives gets applied to the caster but I am willing to make an assumption that anything that works just like them will too. -
Destruent✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I guess all that passives should apply before the damage gets transferred. But we didn't test that much. We just wanted to see how this skill behaves in general
We used the mob before mantikora on vSO for our tests. Great test-mob for such things, bc you don't get disturbed by other players ^^Noobplar -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If this is about PvE, why did you mention Critical hits? PvE NPCS do not crit. They get buffs to increase damage, but no, no crits.
Talk about nit picking :P Well I did miss editing that part of my OP but yea it was PvE only originally but as I updated it it became about more than that. -
paulsimonps✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭paulsimonps wrote: »Hey, I didn't understand everything, can you simply answer to some questions ?
I'm wondering if vampire is a good idea for sorcerer in pvp (mean spamming shield)
Is the fire malus apply on shield (25% fire damage on the shield )?
Is the fighter guild malus apply on shield (20% more damage on shield with fighter ability) ?
Is mist form and undead passive apply the reduction on shield ?
Sorrry if the questions are silly...
It was a bit hard to understand what you meant first but to try and clear it up.
The fire vulnerability for vampire and the extra damage from fighters guild on vampires is applied BEFORE you take damage so it will make the damage you take on a damage shield larger aka it will deplete faster and more damage will overflow to you once depleted.
Mist form and Undeath reduces the damage you take before the shield takes damage. Which means that the damage that would overflow from a depleted shield would be less and might prevent a depletion as well if the attacks are weak enough. Do remember that the increase in damage from the fire and fighters guild stuff is applied before your own reduction.
I do not want to highjack your great thread here @paulsimonps , but going into depth with reversed mitigations, I wonder if there are perhaps more malus effects to reckon with when you are a Vampire.
I know that when a NPC like a Scamp is hit by Shock Damage, you have a pretty good chance that the Scamp has suddenly a procced high damage hit called "Desintegration" + a Stun. And that "Desintegration" is NOT the Sorcerer "Implosion", because they scale differently from stats.
Reason: Scamps are vulnerable for Shock Damage.
A kind of "hidden" secondary elemental effect.
I now wonder if something similar happens with a Vampire who is vulnerable for fire, when hit by Fire Damage. Perhaps A vampire has noticed something like this ?
@hrothbern
To answer your question simply, no there is no such thing for Vampire players. What it is is this: An NPC that is "Weak against" or "Vulnerable" literally has ZERO resistance against that specific element. In addition to that any target that is weak against an element will also have a chance of proc'ing an additional high damage effect. Shock is called Disintegration, Fire is Explosion and Ice is Deep freeze. So as a player you just get that extra % increased damage in the form of a damage multiplier, you still have spell and elemental resistance thou.Edited by paulsimonps on July 26, 2016 5:42AM -
hrothbern✭✭✭✭✭
✭paulsimonps wrote: »paulsimonps wrote: »Hey, I didn't understand everything, can you simply answer to some questions ?
I'm wondering if vampire is a good idea for sorcerer in pvp (mean spamming shield)
Is the fire malus apply on shield (25% fire damage on the shield )?
Is the fighter guild malus apply on shield (20% more damage on shield with fighter ability) ?
Is mist form and undead passive apply the reduction on shield ?
Sorrry if the questions are silly...
It was a bit hard to understand what you meant first but to try and clear it up.
The fire vulnerability for vampire and the extra damage from fighters guild on vampires is applied BEFORE you take damage so it will make the damage you take on a damage shield larger aka it will deplete faster and more damage will overflow to you once depleted.
Mist form and Undeath reduces the damage you take before the shield takes damage. Which means that the damage that would overflow from a depleted shield would be less and might prevent a depletion as well if the attacks are weak enough. Do remember that the increase in damage from the fire and fighters guild stuff is applied before your own reduction.
I do not want to highjack your great thread here @paulsimonps , but going into depth with reversed mitigations, I wonder if there are perhaps more malus effects to reckon with when you are a Vampire.
I know that when a NPC like a Scamp is hit by Shock Damage, you have a pretty good chance that the Scamp has suddenly a procced high damage hit called "Desintegration" + a Stun. And that "Desintegration" is NOT the Sorcerer "Implosion", because they scale differently from stats.
Reason: Scamps are vulnerable for Shock Damage.
A kind of "hidden" secondary elemental effect.
I now wonder if something similar happens with a Vampire who is vulnerable for fire, when hit by Fire Damage. Perhaps A vampire has noticed something like this ?
@hrothbern
To answer your question simply, no there is no such thing for Vampire players. What it is is this: An NPC that is "Weak against" or "Vulnerable" literally has ZERO resistance against that specific element. In addition to that any target that is weak against an element will also have a chance of proc'ing an additional high damage effect. Shock is called Disintegration, Fire is Explosion and Ice is Deep freeze. So as a player you just get that extra % increased damage in the form of a damage multiplier, you still have spell and elemental resistance thou.
@paulsimonps ,
Thanks for that clarification "I still do not understand why I followed the advice of Captain Rana to bring the villagers of Bleakrock into safety. We should have fought for our village and not have backed down, with our tail between our legs.
Now my home village is in shambles, the houses burning, the invaders feasting.
I swear every day to Shor that after Molag Bal has been defeated, I will hunt down the invaders and restore peace in Bleakrock and drink my mead with my friends at the market place". -
GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This is not tanking related but i thought this may be the right place to ask.
Question: How much percentage does a Fire Resistance Jewelry Glyph (3520 fire resist) reduce?PS4 NA DC
