PTS Feedback Thread for Frost Staff Tanking

RouDeR

1: Solution to permablock : just block (suppress ) any magica regain effects when blocking ( warlock ,desert rose, constitution etc.)
2: blocking with frost staff stops your magica and Stamina recovery .
3: no need for taunting on heavy attack , instead the caster can gain minor protection for 5 seconds

lucky_Sage

Liofa wrote: »

lucky_Sage wrote: »

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

so.....desert rose 5pc with 5 blackrose and a masters or maelstrom frost staff= permablocking magicka toon. Someone on PTS please test this

don't forget to add minor magickasteal on a Templar hitting a zerg which is 400 mana a sec per zerg member. so fighting a 30 man zerg prumablocking with ice staff and blazing shield 12000 magicka a sec aswell

It doesn't matter how many people you hit with Minor Magickasteal . You can only get 400 magicka per second maximum . I don't even know how do you get this information . Don't believe in such important things until you test it yourself .

@Liofa
that's still bad they ruined 2 spells that's big nerf.
thanks for clearing that up

Grileenor

Tanking with a staff is plain stupid. Try to hide behind a staff, when some exhales its odem on you. Even wearing two frying pans would make more sense. ZOS fails to make frost and lightning mages viable thus creating blocking nonsense.

P L E A S E D O N'T

psychotic13

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Resto staff would make more sense.

It really wouldn't, taunting enemies as a healer? Lol

dpencil

@ZOS_GinaBruno
I agree that putting a taunt on the heavy attack doesn't sound like a good idea, not just because tanks don't like to drop block to taunt, but also because players who don't know about the taunt aspect will unwittingly get into trouble in a group and not have a good experience.

Give the heavy attack a group utility ability, like minor heroism or minor breach/fracture. Make the frost version of Destructive Touch a taunt.

me_ming

I still don't get the Ice staff taunt? Why?! o.O

Minalan

Just say no to perma-blocking ice staff healing templars.

RouDeR wrote: »

1: Solution to permablock : just block (suppress ) any magica regain effects when blocking ( warlock ,desert rose, constitution etc.)
2: blocking with frost staff stops your magica and Stamina recovery .
3: no need for taunting on heavy attack , instead the caster can gain minor protection for 5 seconds

This is not okay. All they need to do is dodge roll and they get all of the magicka back and go back to blocking.

There needs to be more to this game than scotch taping down your block button to counter every ultimate, attack and stun except for a tiny handful.

Blocking needs to be resource expensive (tri focus passive is too strong), and doing so should suppress all resource gains.

It also needs to be evaluated whether this will make magicka templars far far far too powerful. They are balanced NOW because blocking takes a resource they just don't have enough of. They are already extremely 'tanky' and balanced with self heals. After this change? Unkillable.

KochDerDamonen

My thoughts:

Change the Frost effect for Destructive Clench to be a taunt
Change the Tri-focus to be a passive that allows the damage value of the frost staff to double as an armor rating (not going to be super strong cause no reinforced or CP passive, but it's good I think.)
Add Major Fracture and Breach somewhere in the Destruction staff spells, perhaps change one of the Wall of Elements morphs to have extra effects based on element and put it there.

Additionally, I think if we want Frost Staves to be even somewhat respected they need to provide some extra utility to the group that sword&shield does not. I think making Elemental Rage apply shields to allies in its range, or having and Impulse morph shred extra resistances in a unique debuff would help, but plenty of things could work.

tinythinker

Been trying to work this out.

Is this a way to make up for the nerf sap tanks face with the increase in Strife cost?




As for functionality, yeah, the loss of a gear slot and having to taunt with a heavy attack...???

So, if you were committed to making this work how would this make sense with the necessities for tanking....




Oh, well, OK. This is what I could come up with off of the top of my head. Try this:

Frost Clench: Frost Clench applies taunts the target and nearby enemies and applies a 30% snare to all affected. At last, an AoE-like taunt. Technically it's a "splash" taunt, but, it would be unique to this type of tanking. Scanning rapidly back over the thread others have offered a similar idea. There's that I guess. Anyway, no accidental taunting from heavy attacks or dying while trying to get the taunt off.

Wall of Frost: Create an ice barrier (same visual effect you see NPCs with a frost staff make in delves) in front of you that absorbs X amount of incoming damage while immobilizing and doing damage over time to enemies in the area of effect. The amount of damage absorbed is based on your total magicka (so someone with 40K magicka gets a bigger barrier than someone with 20K magicka). This wall isn't 360 degrees so in PvP someone could still flank you. But for holding a breach in PvP or tanking in PvE it would work well. Coupled with Hardened Ward or other class-based magicka-cost mitigation and Dampen Magic it could give a decent amount of mitigation at key times without adding anything to let ice staff users get an unbalanced blocking buff. Could add some extra feature to Wall of Flames and Wall of Lightning to compensate.

Tri-Focus (passive): Fully charged heavy attacks grant a 20 second damage shield to the nearest 3 allies that reduces damage over time effects by 40%. This is a spin on the current Tri-Focus passive that gives a generic damage shield to the caster. In this case three of your nearest allies get serious DoT protection, such as the melee DPS in your party.

Ancient Knowledge (of Frost) (passive): Weakness to Elements also causes Major Fracture, reducing the target's physical resistance.

I don't see this arrangement as hurting people who don't want to tank with a frost staff, but it would make them more mitigation heavy as opposed to DPS-heavy with an Inferno Staff. I also don't see this as allowing someone to main a major trial in hardmode, but you could probably tank group dungeons and be an effective off-tank in trials. A kind of hybrid tank/support role for that harder content or for easier content that doesn't require a fully devoted tanky type tank.

You would have to have Frost Clench (if you want the splash-snare, otherwise you could use Inner Fire on either bar), Wall of Frost, and Elemental Drain (preferable Elemental Drain) on the destro bar, along with whatever other two skills you want with them.

Other bar could just be a plain sword and board. Maybe with Balance and Structured Entropy? Dunno. Would have to think about it.

GCVDJ11T

Current trials: We have prohibited frost staves from being used. Accidentally taunting Rahkkat off of me would end in the wielders death. With that being said no one is using a frost staff in trials that I know of.

There have been cases where I've had DPS taunt. Lamias in old SO and atro's on the Mage in AA. However a 3 second heavy versus instant inner fire isn't practical. Especially since regen stops while blocking with the frost staff.

I've heard it said that the change was made for casual players and not for us 1% trials players. While I can understand giving the pugs something different and fun, please understand this is not a good direction.

Before you solidify this change; I implore the devs to go on live, use the group finder and pug dungeons.

Letting the casual players think they can tank dungeons with an ice staff is going to cause so much more frustration. I tank with pugs to make me better with resource management. 9-minutes on Bogden.....

I know you have tested this. HOWEVER this time do it with pugs for a few weeks. Try tanking with a sword and board with the ones you've made this change for then tell me if you still think this is a good idea.

Lord_Eomer

Surgee wrote: »

I'm a tank and I think it's the worst idea ever because of perma-block. Block with staff - drain magicka. Once your magica is out, switch to shield and drain stamina while your magicka regenerates. How come ZOS didn't think about that??? Seriously?

Do not worry it looks like what u said but not like that, try urself in pts

Elyu

Not a fan of this change at all.

I'm no expert tank like @Woeler but.... having a celestial deity hit you with a sword taller than you are, and you block it with a length of wood?!

It also doesn't fit the theme of the revamped ancient knowledge passive.

Fire staves: + 8% single target dmg
Lightning staves: +8% aoe dmg
Frost staves (what it SHOULD be): +8% cold damage, and converts insta cast magic abilities (abilities that deal magic damage) to deal cold damage. (i.e. excluding cast time/channeled temp abilities, sorc frags and soul strike ulti))

Yes I realise this suggestion would apply almost exclusively to mag nb but we seriously (at least in pve) need something that makes us unique, and therefore able to build a reliable damage build.

It would also mean the tri focus passive would need to be changed, my suggestion: fully-charged heavy attacks with a frost staff now apply minor force for 2 seconds.

Reasoning?
Ice heart: procs off crit damage, deals ice damage.
Revamped ancient knowledge passive: mainly benefits mag nb, who rely on high crit to deal effective dmg
2 sec 'should' be long enough to sustain in pve weaving with high uptime, but short enough that it won't be a game changer in pvp.

Thoughts behind this change?
So many unique and interesting sets that revolve around cold damage (winterborn, ice heart, ice furnace etc) that see little to no use as they are too hard to effectively use.

With my proposed changes to 'ancient knowledge' and 'tri focus' passives I believe that runnign a frost build (or high crit build, or both) will be viable and effective in both pve AND pvp.

tinythinker wrote: »

Wall of Frost: Create an ice barrier (same visual effect you see NPCs with a frost staff make in delves) in front of you that absorbs X amount of incoming damage while immobilizing and doing damage over time to enemies in the area of effect. The amount of damage absorbed is based on your total magicka (so someone with 40K magicka gets a bigger barrier than someone with 20K magicka). This wall isn't 360 degrees so in PvP someone could still flank you. But for holding a breach in PvP or tanking in PvE it would work well. Coupled with Hardened Ward or other class-based magicka-cost mitigation and Dampen Magic it could give a decent amount of mitigation at key times without adding anything to let ice staff users get an unbalanced blocking buff. Could add some extra feature to Wall of Flames and Wall of Lightning to compensate.

Although I don't agree with most of this post, this bit caught my attention as it would add to the flavour and identity of frost builds. The +20% dmg from wall of fire is quite enough of a unique buff already though thank you.

Wall of storms..... increased area affected?

luen79rwb17_ESO

I was expecting each staff type to add bonuses to certain stats.

For example:

- Fire staff: bonus to crit chance.
- Lightning staff: bonus to spell damage.
- Ice staff: bonus to crit damage or spell penetration or W/E...

That way you can pick which one fits you better for your build, play style, solo or group content, PVE, PVP. Adding TONS of build choices and diversity...

But no... We got Frost tanks instead

Sharee

dpencil wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno
I agree that putting a taunt on the heavy attack doesn't sound like a good idea, not just because tanks don't like to drop block to taunt, but also because players who don't know about the taunt aspect will unwittingly get into trouble in a group and not have a good experience.

Give the heavy attack a group utility ability, like minor heroism or minor breach/fracture. Make the frost version of Destructive Touch a taunt.

If they don't know about the taunt aspect of heavy attack, chances are they wouldn't know about the taunt aspect of destructive touch either, and unwittingly get into trouble all the same.

Cinbri

Tri-Focus passive is kinda weak for frost staff. While other staffs hee benefits from 2 stages of it , frost staff is enough to invest only 1 point coz 2nd stage doesn't do anything. Maybe add like 10% speedbuff while blocking for Tri-Focus stage 2.

Pinja

I've hardly read into the change yet but, I'm a squishy sorc being 'smart' using an ice staff during city of ash. How is this going to work out for me?

Lord_Eomer

RouDeR wrote: »

1: Solution to permablock : just block (suppress ) any magica regain effects when blocking ( warlock ,desert rose, constitution etc.)
2: blocking with frost staff stops your magica and Stamina recovery .
3: no need for taunting on heavy attack , instead the caster can gain minor protection for 5 seconds

Why stop magicka gain sets and block stmaina Recovery.

You have no idea of tanking..

cschwingeb14_ESO

Because right now, perma block is an investment. Either a big commitment to non regen Stan recovery, or all traits/jewelry enchants and a bunch of CP. I know it's not hard to build a perma blocker, but it's a gearing/CP commitment

With the way constitution works and magisteal, any stam tank will be able to use a frost staff to tank for long enough to completely recover stam. And magicka tanks will have it even easier, as they are already using 1H/S and a staff.

It's also going to spread cancer block builds all over cyrodiil. But that's a seperate issue that could be fixed in other ways

Armitas

A few things I wonder about. When someone stam tanks they have cost reduction inside the weapon line which lets them tank and debuff without losing too much stam. They use their magicka to run buffs and heals. With Frost tanking there is no cost reduction, you still have magicka and buffs to run, and all that shares the same resource as your blocking.

For example....(taken from online calculator)
Stamina Taunt. 1534 stamina -10% cost from fortress = 1381 Stamina
Magicka Taunt 3655 magicka with no cost reduction in the line or from HA. ( I guess you could tank in LA armor master but that is 1 set)

That seems like it's going to be a problem and you can't block while charging a heavy attack to taunt.

saganblackblade

I love ther frost staff tanking, but we are missing some serious tank buffs and debuffs. and one HUGE downside for tanking is that we lose a set piece. if we could work in major fracture/breech and minor heroism it'd be solid enough. This really needs its own seperate skill line so that it can have tailored skills.

Ajaxduo

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for Frost Staff tanking. Please let us know what you think of this new playstyle, if you ran into any bugs, and any other feedback you'd like to give.

While I support the style of tanking you need to make improvements to the following:

- Make the taunt bound to one of the destruction staff skills (destructive touch, i.e. costs less but applies a taunt and resistance debuff) , channeling a heavy attack just to taunt is very inefficient and will result in untimely deaths (trials).
- With your general changes to destruction staffs you need to inform inexperienced players what the types of staffs are meant to be used for. Otherwise we'll see new players taunt spamming in dungeons, although this could be amusing. It's not like you already see that with sword and board taunts anyway xD
- The only advantage of frost staff over sword and board is a separate resource to block with, you lose 1 set bonus and the armor rating from the shield - perhaps you could add a scaling armor rating whilst a frost staff is equipped to offset that (also tweak the champion point passive to include frost staff).
- Consider making 2 handed weapons count as 2 set parts? This limits your set combo's significantly.
- Change the blocking visual to a frost themed shield? Would be epic.

Overall I appreciate that you are promoting tanking, there is a significant lack of tanks in the game.

FooWasHere

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno ,

How about a 1 handed staff (wand) and shield (book) line.

It can be defensive based in magic and blocking could be visualized by a magic barrier when blocking.

That should totally be dual Welkynd stones, those things are used for everything...

Ajaxduo

Please add a frost shield visual instead of us holding up a wooden staff, it would greatly improve frost tanking visually.

Anti_Virus

Contraptions wrote: »

I like the intention behind making magicka tanking a bit more mainstream and the idea of making tanking not always require a one hand/shield is nice. However, the current implementation is rather confusing and seems really rushed.

If you look at the 1H/S line it's clear that the line was designed from the beginning to support tanking. All the skills and passives have something useful to the role, whether it be apply taunt, debuffing enemies, preventing damage, reducing damage, enhancements to block etc. This is why people laugh if someone wants to use 1H/S for say DPS or healing in PVE. Because it is clearly NOT meant to do those things.

Destro staff at this point only has one passive, or rather one particular version of it that has any use to tanking at all. And of course that's the Tri Focus which grants a taunt on full heavy attack and the new Ancient Knowledge. Um. Yeah. Considering we already have a ranged magicka taunt that is instant, why would anyone want this? Dropping block for a tank is pretty risky. If the staff heavy attack was as fast as say the dual wield heavy attack maybe this would be viable, but at this point it's just not fast or useful enough. On top of that I'm losing all the useful passives and skills that would otherwise be available if I had chosen 1H/S instead. And I'm losing a set bonus as well. What, pray tell, is the advantage of frost staff tanking vs. 1H/S tanking? Maybe if the staff was on your off bar and 1H/S on your main bar perhaps... but still I don't really see the point.

I honestly think the destro line should be split into three different stave lines each with their own skills and passives. Trying to shoehorn tanking abilities into an already crowded skill tree seems a bit silly. (Would also make the number of magicka weapons equal to the number of stamina weapons, but that's a separate point.) If that's not possible, perhaps some redesign of existing skills/morphs would help make frost staff a viable replacement for 1H/S for tanking.

Force Shock - as is. Crushing Shock would be a nice replacement for the bash passive on 1H/S. Ranged interrupts at a larger cost.

Impulse - make the frost version apply Minor Lifesteal to all enemies hit. Applies to base and morphs. Adds some small group utility, esp when most enemies are immune to immobilizes and Mangle anyway.

Wall of Elements - frost version applies Minor Maim to all enemies hit for both base and morphs instead. Adds some small group utility, esp when most enemies are immune to immobilizes and Mangle anyway.

Elemental Susceptibility (morph of Weakness to Elements) - applies Major Breach and taunt. Still costs no Magicka. Frost Staff doesn't have Sword and Board, Battlefield Mobility and Deflect Bolts passive so loses out in sheer mitigation and mobility, but this might help it win a bit in terms of resource management and aggro control. Moving the taunt to this one morph means that no more accidental taunting by others via the heavy attack as well. This skill is also instant, making taunting using this comparable to Puncture in terms of risk.

Destructive touch - frost version applies Major Breach and immobilize to enemies hit. adds group utility.

Ultimate - make the frost version apply taunt to all enemies damaged maybe. An AOE taunt as an ultimate sounds nice, but many people seem opposed to it. Not too sure what can be changed here.

Overall, frost staff would get the advantage of being able to apply more debuffs and taunts quickly, in exchange for smaller mitigation and sustain capabilities. Destro also has range in exchange for higher skill costs. Again, this is just brainstorming, and maybe Wrobel has more changes in store, but some changes are needed to make frost staff more viable as a main bar tank tool.

Um false Sword and Shield can deal dmg, it has two damage passives

Sword and Board passive

Deadly bash passive

Also one morph of power bash has a DPS tag on it.

mr_wazzabi

Frost staff permablocking templars who proc tremorscale with heavy attacks because they now "taunt". GJ ZOS!!!

montiferus

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Why do we even need frost tanks? I get that as far as destruction staves go, Ice was least usefull. Fire and lightning have their advantages. But to create a whole new meta when there is so many other things that need to be fixed? its just perplexing.

Agreed. We are pretty far into this game and we still have

1. Ridiculous lag in PVP
2. Imbalance in PVP
3. Lag in Vet Trials
4. Lag in VMA
5. Lack of new challenging content

There are so many items that desperately need to be addressed in this game it is mystifying to me that any time was spent on adding this.

saganblackblade

So, I find myself wondering if this doesnt make all that much sense to us because we are missing a piece of the puzzle. Could just be me, but what with the constant pet changes and now a frost tank weapon I'm feeling the Warden coming on.

LtCrunch

Woeler wrote: »

First feedback I guess. If you want this to work, taunt with heavy attack has to go. Nobody is going to charge an heavy attack while unblocked in a trial or heavy boss.

At the moment, I'm not really a fan at all of this whole frost staff thing, but I do feel that if this goes through, it has to be done right.

"Nobody" is incorrect, there are builds that it synergizes wonderfully with. My Sorc tank has no use for blocking outside of preventing CC or extremely damaging boss heavies. That's because his primary means of damage mitigation is Hardened Ward and maintaining 100% uptime isn't a problem. When he's not actively casting something he's using the staff heavy attacks. In fact ZOS has done nothing but buff or supplement this build for PVE since I created it in update 1.6 on the PTS. Which is absolutely insane since it's easily the most overpowering build I've ever used for tanking, and I say that as someone who has exclusively tanked the entire time I've played ESO since early launch.

That being said the type of build I use on my Sorc is uncommon, so frost would still be in a similar situation that it has always been pre-2.7. ZOS probably should find something other way to apply the taunt so frost staffs will be useful for a wider variety of builds. Hopefully without simply applying it to one of the destruction staff abilities(unless they wanna apply it to wall of elements or impulse and give us an AOE taunt )

nml

I use frost staff on back bar to immobilize fleeing targets in PvP, please don't disrupt that play style.

Also, isn't it a contradiction to 'tank' with a 'destruction' staff? Why not create a new magicka based tanking weapon and improve frost staff damage output?

Izaki

NB frost tanks with 60k magicka incoming. Or 70% crit chance frost sorc tanks. LOL.