Scrub mentality in group dungeons

Florial

I agree that it is all about delivery and also timing. I'm a max CP player but up until recently, mainly soloed through the storyline. I'm still learning the ins and outs of dungeon running. There are many players who know each dungeon, each boss fight strategy like the back of their hand. I don't mind tips on the fights or even skill recommendations if needed. What I don't appreciate is "advice" like "learn the basics before coming to a dungeon." Even had a guildie a few weeks ago rage at our group for a bunch of instant death in one of the vet dungeons. Attempted to explain that red was bad in a condescending way. It was fairly disheartening.

OP, it was nice that you stuck around in the dungeon to help. I try to do the same even if I see that the group may be a challenge. I only drop if people start squabbling or do really dumb things like run ahead, agro the entire room then gripe when it is a wipe. The first "gogogo" or "heals fail" comment I hear, I'm usually out of there with an automatic drop group.

LadyNalcarya

Maybe super easy overland pve is a part of the problem.
I started playing this game during 1.5 patch, and I actually had to use skills to kill world bosses and main quest enemies.
And I dont understand "they dont know better" comments. My very first dungeon was Banished Cells, normal mode of course, and for 3 out of 4 group members it was their first dungeon ever, and we didnt even have a tank or healer... Just 4 players in random gear. It took a while, and we wiped a few times, but luckily, everyone in group was willing to cooperate, so we finished the dungeon.
My first month in game was very casual, but still I could figure out that red is bad, or that light attacks arent the most efficient way to kill stuff, or that sometimes you need to pay attention to the mechanics. I didnt know that addons existed and ofc didnt know anything about character builds, but ingame info (tooltips etc) was enough to learn how to play the game on the basic level.
So I think it just depends on the person. Some people just think that their teammates are obliged to carry them no matter what. And its really unpleasant when you happen to have more than one of those in a random group.

Also I think that One Tamriel open world scaling might be beneficial in this regard, it actually motivates people to cooperate to kill world bosses and to use characters abilities instead of light attacks... That being said, a few tutorials about dungeon roles and such wouldnt hurt.

Asardes

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Heavy armor sucks badly at both resource management and damage dealing. I can't figure out why some people pick it for PvE. They probably don't bother to read the tool tips.

You don't weave?

Yes, I do quite a lot as a tank. Usually heavy attack with heroic slash to also maximize ultimate regeneration. But a DD that does that half the time will not pull enough DPS for any normal dungeon, let alone veteran. And heavy armor has neither the weapon damage and critical that medium has, nor the penetration and spell critical light does. Not to mention the regeneration passives for stamina and magicka respectively. Constitution passive doesn't work on DD or healer, because they should get hit a lot to proc it. Which they don't want to, because being hit with 5-7K from trash mobs and 20K from boss is not pleasant, even in heavy armor, when your health is ~17-18K.

And a dead healer is a useless healer. The biggest perk of heavy armor is the armor rating.

Ran a few dungeons with heavy armor healers and they sucked both in terms of actual healing power and sustain. It's primarily a PvP build that doesn't work well in group PvE dungeons. Having high armor rating doesn't save you if you stay in the red, even as tank. Low health, low armor rating characters should rely on situational awareness, quick reactions and good tanking. It's not armor that should keep healers and DDs alive. It's the tank dragging the aggro, and them blocking, dodging, warding the attacks that can't be focused by the tank. Heavy armor has high penalties. Of course, running one heavy for the undaunted passive is advisable, but not running 5/7 or 7/7 heavy. I've run dungeons both as tank and DD and as long as I reacted properly I stayed alive easily, even if the tank was mediocre.

LadyNalcarya

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Heavy armor sucks badly at both resource management and damage dealing. I can't figure out why some people pick it for PvE. They probably don't bother to read the tool tips.

You don't weave?

Yes, I do quite a lot as a tank. Usually heavy attack with heroic slash to also maximize ultimate regeneration. But a DD that does that half the time will not pull enough DPS for any normal dungeon, let alone veteran. And heavy armor has neither the weapon damage and critical that medium has, nor the penetration and spell critical light does. Not to mention the regeneration passives for stamina and magicka respectively. Constitution passive doesn't work on DD or healer, because they should get hit a lot to proc it. Which they don't want to, because being hit with 5-7K from trash mobs and 20K from boss is not pleasant, even in heavy armor, when your health is ~17-18K.

And a dead healer is a useless healer. The biggest perk of heavy armor is the armor rating.

...Which is a common newbie trap in this game.
Armor rating might look "good" but actual armor mitigation is hardcapped at 50%, while sustain from light armor allows you to outheal a lot of incoming damage. For a dd the difference is evem more significant, spell penetration/crit/etc from light armor or weapon damage/cost reduction/etc outweight the heavy armor bonuses.
For pvp, there are viable heavy armor builds, but for pve heavy is only good for tanks.
I'm healing veteran trials just fine in 6 light/1 heavy (heavy is Kena's pauldron), with 16-something-k hp (except vmol hardmode, I have an extra chest piece with hp enchant for that one). So its not like high armor rating is required.

Asardes

Florial wrote: »

I agree that it is all about delivery and also timing. I'm a max CP player but up until recently, mainly soloed through the storyline. I'm still learning the ins and outs of dungeon running. There are many players who know each dungeon, each boss fight strategy like the back of their hand. I don't mind tips on the fights or even skill recommendations if needed. What I don't appreciate is "advice" like "learn the basics before coming to a dungeon." Even had a guildie a few weeks ago rage at our group for a bunch of instant death in one of the vet dungeons. Attempted to explain that red was bad in a condescending way. It was fairly disheartening.

OP, it was nice that you stuck around in the dungeon to help. I try to do the same even if I see that the group may be a challenge. I only drop if people start squabbling or do really dumb things like run ahead, agro the entire room then gripe when it is a wipe. The first "gogogo" or "heals fail" comment I hear, I'm usually out of there with an automatic drop group.

If a player doesn't understand the basics, like what his class/armor/weapon skills actually do and how they scale on his stats it's almost impossible to explain more complicated things like skill rotation and mechanics. For example taking the example of Banished Cells I, if the "healer" is a hybrid build in heavy armor, the heavy attacks from his staff may not be strong enough to break the balls until they reach the boss. Not to mention that his healing skills won't be able to fill the other player's health pools. I've seen a lot of fails like that. But in normal dungeon I slot vigor instead of talons and simply carry on. But there is only so much a properly geared, experienced player may compensate for:
- normal dungeons can be soloed, with one actual player and 3 spectators
- in vanilla game veteran dungeons and normal DLC ones a bad player, especially DD, can be carried
- in DLC veteran dungeons every failure and misunderstanding of the dungeon mechanics can lead to group wipe and inability to finish the dungeon.

Junipus

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Also I think that One Tamriel open world scaling might be beneficial in this regard, it actually motivates people to cooperate to kill world bosses and to use characters abilities instead of light attacks... That being said, a few tutorials about dungeon roles and such wouldnt hurt.

While it's impossible to prove, I suspect a few terribad or egotistical players are now just spamming light attacks for their grinding. Come Glenumbra (we're on same server and platform) and you'll see whole zergs farming the middle dolmen and WW boss where the only option you have it light attack since everything dies so quickly. On top of that some of them are lowbies who either aren't learning anything or know the score but still won't learn anything.

The change to damage contribution while beneficial, does have some serious drawbacks since players don't have to contribute as much effort or damage to get their XP/loot.

Alucardo

You know you've spent too much time grinding Stonefalls when you read the title as "Scrib mentality"

Dubhliam

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Heavy armor sucks badly at both resource management and damage dealing. I can't figure out why some people pick it for PvE. They probably don't bother to read the tool tips.

You don't weave?

Yes, I do quite a lot as a tank. Usually heavy attack with heroic slash to also maximize ultimate regeneration. But a DD that does that half the time will not pull enough DPS for any normal dungeon, let alone veteran. And heavy armor has neither the weapon damage and critical that medium has, nor the penetration and spell critical light does. Not to mention the regeneration passives for stamina and magicka respectively. Constitution passive doesn't work on DD or healer, because they should get hit a lot to proc it. Which they don't want to, because being hit with 5-7K from trash mobs and 20K from boss is not pleasant, even in heavy armor, when your health is ~17-18K.

And a dead healer is a useless healer. The biggest perk of heavy armor is the armor rating.

This is so wrong.

The healer won't be dead if the tank does his job and keeps aggro.

A healer without magicka is a useless healer.
The sooner you learn that, the better.

Humatiel

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Buffler wrote: »

So you told them you had no clue what you were doing several times so when they offer advice it pisses you off. Just WOW!

Yes, what's so "WOW!" in that ? What I need is time and practice, not advice.

new is new, and why on earth would you rely on a guide instead of a guildy standing right in front of you that clearly is good at a mdk.

Zyrudin

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is so wrong.

The healer won't be dead if the tank does his job and keeps aggro.

A healer without magicka is a useless healer.
The sooner you learn that, the better.

Although technically you are right, that it's the tank's task to keep everyone's aggro, you are assuming every team you will ever partake in is perfectly set for its tasks as you see optimal.

Firstly, there is more than one way to manage resources and to be effective, not just the one build or one pack of options: I've seen some unexpected results at times.

And secondly, unless you are going on a run with a team that you know well and have had a good briefing beforehand, always expect the unexpected - to me, honestly, that adaptation is part of the fun in doing group dungeons, as it becomes less mechanical.

Still, I am talking about myself personally only here.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Humatiel wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Buffler wrote: »

So you told them you had no clue what you were doing several times so when they offer advice it pisses you off. Just WOW!

Yes, what's so "WOW!" in that ? What I need is time and practice, not advice.

new is new, and why on earth would you rely on a guide instead of a guildy standing right in front of you that clearly is good at a mdk.

Read again.
I'm not new. My main is a sorc who completed everything except vMOL. My character is new. I am not new, I'm just new to this class.
I didn't say I needed a guide, I said I needed time and practice.
Now I'll tell you why I wouldn't listen to this guildie on that particular occasion :

- It was late. I was tired. I couldn't possibly remember what they were telling me unless I took a pen and paper to write it down. But we were in a dungeon, I was playing, and like most humanbeings, I have only two hands and ten fingers.

- They said to use some particular gear with some particular rotation. But were unable to tell me why. While still good players, these guys either don't know why they use a skill or some gear, or don't know how to explain why. They copy/pasted some cookie cutter build with or without understanding why. I'm the sort of person who needs to understand why, in order to apply instructions/advice properly.

- I could not apply whatever they advised me for the simple reason that I HAD NO SKILLPOINTS. With the current cauldron buff, it's very quick to reach level 50/veteran but you still need to grind quests and lorebooks and skyshards and stuff to unlock abilities. I had not done any of that yet.

- If I understood them well (because, mind you, I was listening anyway... ) mDK relies a lot on properly timed DoTs. That requires understanding precisely how each of them works and practising a lot.

As I said, I need time and practice, not advice. On that particular occasion.

Dubhliam

Zyrudin wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is so wrong.

The healer won't be dead if the tank does his job and keeps aggro.

A healer without magicka is a useless healer.
The sooner you learn that, the better.

Although technically you are right, that it's the tank's task to keep everyone's aggro, you are assuming every team you will ever partake in is perfectly set for its tasks as you see optimal.

Firstly, there is more than one way to manage resources and to be effective, not just the one build or one pack of options: I've seen some unexpected results at times.

And secondly, unless you are going on a run with a team that you know well and have had a good briefing beforehand, always expect the unexpected - to me, honestly, that adaptation is part of the fun in doing group dungeons, as it becomes less mechanical.

Still, I am talking about myself personally only here.

I'm sorry, but nothing says "noob" like a healer or damage dealer doing group dungeons in heavy armor.
Yes, this might save you on certain occasions where other group members perform particularly bad.
But in the end, your own performance will be terrible in comparison to healers that use light armor.

If I knew that one of my guildies is wearing HA as DD or healer, and there was nothing I could say to convince him otherwise, I simply wouldn't play with him.
He'd be basically hopeless.

Note, I am not saying "this set" or "that set".
Light Armor.
I think this covers a lot of variety and build diversity, don't you think?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

I'm sorry, but nothing says "noob" like a healer or damage dealer doing group dungeons in heavy armor.

Yes but no.
In my guild there's a awesome healer. Recently he switched to heavy armor.
He says he can't PUG anymore but he's happy to run with us because we don't mind him being in HA.

And he does fine. We don't die, that's all we ask really.

Admittedly, we're quite used to running dungeons with 4 DD's or whatever f***-up combination of roles, thus we're used to self-healing, or better, avoid damage and dodge and survive. So maybe we have less expectations towards a healer. But he's still doing great in heavy armor, there's no doubt about that.

A good player can compensate low regeneration with good resources management.

Dubhliam

@Zyrudin
Here is a long list of sets that are considered healing sets:

Combat Physician Set
Healer's Habit Set
Healing Mage Set
Lamia's Song Set
Light Speaker Set
Prayer Shawl Set
Robes of Transmutation Set
Sanctuary Set
Stendarr's Embrace Set
Spell Power Cure Set
Twilight Remedy Set
Gossamer Set

Can you notice what they have in common?

You guessed it!
They're Heavy Armor!
Because that is exactly what a healer needs.
/sarcasm

You know, for a game that has a slogan "play how you want" they sure are giving you nudges in the way the game is supposed to be played.

Take advice from experienced players and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

SolarCat02

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Maybe super easy overland pve is a part of the problem.

I do believe this is very much the case.

With some trepidation, I logged in to play my dps Stamplar yesterday. Her "build" is a mess of intentions and skills that need leveled, with a five piece crafted set I am playing with mixed in with the remains of the other two sets she was wearing before. My healer has better dps, and my Stamplar has no self heals (and no health pots ). I figured I would have a tricky time continuing to solo level her in One Tamriel.

Not only did everything melt like butter, she successfully two manned a world boss. (The three dremora one in Coldharbor). Granted, the other player was on a healing sorcerer, or I would have died three times instead of just once, but we did it successfully with me working on two of the dremora while he worked the third and occasionally healed me. (He did not know I couldn't heal myself until after).

Granted, I have 500+ CP which definitely helps.
But we are talking about a character that can't currently complete normal dungeons without a highly skilled dedicated healer in the group. I would think overland PvE would be at least a bit of a challenge.

Zyrudin

Dubhliam wrote: »

I'm sorry, but nothing says "noob" like a healer or damage dealer doing group dungeons in heavy armor.
Yes, this might save you on certain occasions where other group members perform particularly bad.
But in the end, your own performance will be terrible in comparison to healers that use light armor.

If I knew that one of my guildies is wearing HA as DD or healer, and there was nothing I could say to convince him otherwise, I simply wouldn't play with him.
He'd be basically hopeless.

Note, I am not saying "this set" or "that set".
Light Armor.
I think this covers a lot of variety and build diversity, don't you think?

Here is a long list of sets that are considered healing sets:
Spoiler
Can you notice what they have in common?

You guessed it!
They're Heavy Armor!
Because that is exactly what a healer needs.
/sarcasm

You know, for a game that has a slogan "play how you want" they sure are giving you nudges in the way the game is supposed to be played.

Take advice from experienced players and stop trying to reinvent the wheel

Man... relax, Dubhliam, take it easy. Don't dump it all on me

I came here offering my opinion and experience, not to get into your ESO/MMO world and reinvent anything - I certainly have no such aspirations or interest. I am sorry if I touched a nerve with whatever I said, as it wasn't my intention, as I was expressing an opinion in a straightforward way.

It is interesting, though, that you seem to assume quite a lot about me.

All I can tell you is that I, personally, would never leave a guildmate hanging because he doesn't play with optimal role equipment and skills - that is not proper random group behaviour for me and it certainly would be worse with a guildmate. If guildmates don't help each other then what's the purpose?

The good thing in ESO is that anyone can form their own guild with their own precepts and certainly one of them can be types of armor for each role, etc. I do think, however, that you cannot expect that from a random group finder, even though the case you presented was not the norm.

Dubhliam

Zyrudin wrote: »

All I can tell you is that I, personally, would never leave a guildmate hanging because he doesn't play with optimal role equipment and skills - that is not proper random group behaviour for me and it certainly would be worse with a guildmate. If guildmates don't help each other then what's the purpose?

The good thing in ESO is that anyone can form their own guild with their own precepts and certainly one of them can be types of armor for each role, etc. I do think, however, that you cannot expect that from a random group finder, even though the case you presented was not the norm.

I have never asked, nor will I ever ask for "optimal" builds.
If I am asking too much if I"require" the healer to be in light armor, then I guess I really must be elitist.

The fictional scenario where I said I would give up on a guildmate was if he did not accept advice from me (see, that is called helping each other) and he would persist using Heavy Armor as a healer.

I am not saying it is impossible to heal in Heavy armor.
Heck, I even have a HA templar in Heavy armor that can simultaneously tank and heal.

But if you already have a dedicated tank in the group, and your sole role is to heal, wearing Heavy Armor only scews your performance.
If you are to stubborn to realize and accept that, I got nothing else to help you with.

The problem with ESO is that people like yourself tend to treat such basic logic as "elitist requirements" since the game itself does not impose basic logical requirements on the players.
Or fails to teach them such basics.
Because, even though all healing sets are light armor sets, there are people that still find it more logical to strap on platemail for healing.

Zyrudin

Dubhliam wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

All I can tell you is that I, personally, would never leave a guildmate hanging because he doesn't play with optimal role equipment and skills - that is not proper random group behaviour for me and it certainly would be worse with a guildmate. If guildmates don't help each other then what's the purpose?

The good thing in ESO is that anyone can form their own guild with their own precepts and certainly one of them can be types of armor for each role, etc. I do think, however, that you cannot expect that from a random group finder, even though the case you presented was not the norm.

I have never asked, nor will I ever ask for "optimal" builds.
If I am asking too much if I"require" the healer to be in light armor, then I guess I really must be elitist.

The fictional scenario where I said I would give up on a guildmate was if he did not accept advice from me (see, that is called helping each other) and he would persist using Heavy Armor as a healer.

I am not saying it is impossible to heal in Heavy armor.
Heck, I even have a HA templar in Heavy armor that can simultaneously tank and heal.

But if you already have a dedicated tank in the group, and your sole role is to heal, wearing Heavy Armor only scews your performance.
If you are to stubborn to realize and accept that, I got nothing else to help you with.

The problem with ESO is that people like yourself tend to treat such basic logic as "elitist requirements" since the game itself does not impose basic logical requirements on the players.
Or fails to teach them such basics.
Because, even though all healing sets are light armor sets, there are people that still find it more logical to strap on platemail for healing.

Sure, I can accept your position on that, of course it's logical what you are saying. Numbers don't lie, but there are several ways to work them too.

What it isn't logical is for you to expect that kind of reasoning to be the norm in Random Group finder. Recruit within your guild for group runs or create a different guild for players who abide by those terms for group events.

"People like myself", despite understanding and even putting into practice that kind of logic behind certain build decisions, do not try to force a change in casual or random people who just happened to group up, but rather prefer to first adapt to the circumstances and then, if people are interested in learning a few things or getting a few tips, they will approach us and ask.

I can understand that play time is limited, of course. We all have our jobs and real lives, for sure. However, unless you are willing and able to put together a guild with like-minded people to go on dungeon runs "the logical way" (no sarcasm intended, just a label), if you use the random finder you'll just need to accept that you will probably not have an efficient a run as you'd prefer and adapt to whomever is there.

Relax and play the game.

daedalusAI

Dubhliam wrote: »

@Zyrudin
Here is a long list of sets that are considered healing sets:

Combat Physician Set
Healer's Habit Set
Healing Mage Set
Lamia's Song Set
Light Speaker Set
Prayer Shawl Set
Robes of Transmutation Set
Sanctuary Set
Stendarr's Embrace Set
Spell Power Cure Set
Twilight Remedy Set
Gossamer Set

Can you notice what they have in common?

You guessed it!
They're Heavy Armor!
Because that is exactly what a healer needs.
/sarcasm

You know, for a game that has a slogan "play how you want" they sure are giving you nudges in the way the game is supposed to be played.

Take advice from experienced players and stop trying to reinvent the wheel.

There are nudges provided by the game to actually teach people something without them having to browse through countless wiki sites and posts to even get a basic understanding?

Never seen a single nudge so far on my lvl 28 only questing NB: no in-game explanation about resources, armor types, light/heavy attacks etc. - nothing, 0.
And that "tutorial" at the start isn't even worth being called that: you learn how to block, do heavy attacks and dodge red.

I'm forced to read posts to understand things the game utterly fails to teach you.

Drdeath20

Dubhliam wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Heavy armor sucks badly at both resource management and damage dealing. I can't figure out why some people pick it for PvE. They probably don't bother to read the tool tips.

You don't weave?

Yes, I do quite a lot as a tank. Usually heavy attack with heroic slash to also maximize ultimate regeneration. But a DD that does that half the time will not pull enough DPS for any normal dungeon, let alone veteran. And heavy armor has neither the weapon damage and critical that medium has, nor the penetration and spell critical light does. Not to mention the regeneration passives for stamina and magicka respectively. Constitution passive doesn't work on DD or healer, because they should get hit a lot to proc it. Which they don't want to, because being hit with 5-7K from trash mobs and 20K from boss is not pleasant, even in heavy armor, when your health is ~17-18K.

And a dead healer is a useless healer. The biggest perk of heavy armor is the armor rating.

This is so wrong.

The healer won't be dead if the tank does his job and keeps aggro.

A healer without magicka is a useless healer.
The sooner you learn that, the better.

Hmm been debating this for awhile. How do people have resource problems as a healer? Don't they weave heavy attacks into rotation.

Mutagen, channeled focus, ritual of retribution, Shards, heavy attack. Always keeping BoL handy. Then combat prayer, RD, or more heavy attacks or nutagen depending on situation.

Hot_spur

Yesterday, the guy who gave me food, so I wouldn't keep getting one shot, also talked to the group about AoE skills.

We were in Skyreach Catacombs on the last boss with mobs of spirits. The spirits were overwhelming us and we were dining a lot. So he had us slot AoE skills, and use those on the mob while he worked on the boss. We did it in like a minute.

It never occurred to me that AoE attacks were a tactic on mobs.

He also tried to help a magic sorc in the group to change armor and staff, but she didn't have the right stuff. He asked her how she expected to get through dungeons, and she said she always plays solo.

I felt bad because she's a friend and I invited her to join.

But she took his advice, and we finished a happy group.

As I've stated, if you question my style and tactics, I want you to tell me, and help me if you can.

Dubhliam

Hot_spur wrote: »

Yesterday, the guy who gave me food, so I wouldn't keep getting one shot, also talked to the group about AoE skills.

We were in Skyreach Catacombs on the last boss with mobs of spirits. The spirits were overwhelming us and we were dining a lot. So he had us slot AoE skills, and use those on the mob while he worked on the boss. We did it in like a minute.

It never occurred to me that AoE attacks were a tactic on mobs.

He also tried to help a magic sorc in the group to change armor and staff, but she didn't have the right stuff. He asked her how she expected to get through dungeons, and she said she always plays solo.

I felt bad because she's a friend and I invited her to join.

But she took his advice, and we finished a happy group.

As I've stated, if you question my style and tactics, I want you to tell me, and help me if you can.

This is a great example of a happy ending where people actually take the time to listen to advice.
You have learned a lot and your gaming experience will be better from now on, no doubt about it.

The "scrubs" in the name of this topic are the opposite of your example, they are those that aren't willing to listen, and instead shun anyone that tries to tell them they are doing something wrong.

raglau

Dubhliam wrote: »

If I am asking too much if I"require" the healer to be in light armor, then I guess I really must be elitist.

Well, I believe you might be considered by some to be micromanaging them, as the actual requirement is that he/she heals the team. How that person does that is neither here nor there, they may do it hanging upside down stark bollock naked from a chandalier while simultaneosly injecting heroin into their *** and sucking off a donkey, that's not really our business if the job gets done.

BlanketFort

I wish I had you on my PUG yesterday.
I don't remember which one it was (I think vet CoA 2) but we sure had to wait a long time to get going because every Max CP immediately left the group (we were comprised of mostly below-300 CP).

After about 10 minutes, a max CP tank joined in and actually gave it a try with us.
We dealt with the trash mobs fairly easily.
The came the first boss. It was hell and this is why:

I have only run this content once back when I was 148 CP and don't remember the mechanics, anymore. So I asked. No one answered.
We go in for the fight, it goes on for a while and we eventually wipe out (the tank held out the longest, no surprise).
So I ask if perhaps my CP is too low, and if I should leave so they can get a higher DPS.
No one answers.
I ask what I'm doing wrong.
No one answers.
I ask what the plan is, take down adds first? Ignore adds and focus on boss?
NO ANSWER.
It's not like they didn't have keyboards to type on (this is xbox, btw) because they were able to chat before, while waiting for players. We tried again and we wiped out. Tank left. Healer left. I left.

My point is:
Why do people do that?? If my CP is too low for the content and I offer to leave, then say something.
If an inexperienced player comes into the queue and asks about mechanics, don't just sit idly by and get furious when **** hits the fan! All of these elitist knobs complaining about casuals and don't even bother to give them a chance, much less explain mechanics before entering a boss fight. Well how the hell are we supposed to learn. It's not like we can solo dungeons to practice, now, can we?

Anywho. I would have appreciated someone like you in the group, last night. And if it turns out that my DPS is just not good enough, esp for vet CoA 2 (can't blame me for trying) then I will gladly and politely leave after 3 wipes on a boss so the group can slot a better DPS. My Ego will remain intact. But players who act like elitist snobs are just bad for the community, imo. Also, most people forget that behind the pixels, is an actual human being. Or, most importantly, that they were once low levelled, too. But I guess these hardcore elitist snobs were always so freaking magnificent the second they started playing the game.

Sorry, just wanted to rant on behalf of the "filthy casuals" who would actually like to transition away from the stigma and improve their know-how/skills.
It is not directed towards you.
I think you're great for having stuck around with the group and trying to help.
Nonetheless, the negative stigma of "casuals" doesn't apply to ALL players. Some of us actually want to tackle our L2P issues and it doesn't help if higher CPs stuff us all into the one pigeon hole, "filthy casuals".

I know that is what guilds are for, but it's not like every guild is helpful, and in my case, my guildies would rather do vet content than help a fellow guildie out with getting gear in normal dungeons. In the end, us filthy casuals are stuck with Activity Finder to get our gear.

ESO life is difficult with a toxic, snobbish community. Probably worse on PCs than consoles, though.


EDITED: I wanted to rant some more.

Doctordarkspawn

Asardes wrote: »

Florial wrote: »

I agree that it is all about delivery and also timing. I'm a max CP player but up until recently, mainly soloed through the storyline. I'm still learning the ins and outs of dungeon running. There are many players who know each dungeon, each boss fight strategy like the back of their hand. I don't mind tips on the fights or even skill recommendations if needed. What I don't appreciate is "advice" like "learn the basics before coming to a dungeon." Even had a guildie a few weeks ago rage at our group for a bunch of instant death in one of the vet dungeons. Attempted to explain that red was bad in a condescending way. It was fairly disheartening.

OP, it was nice that you stuck around in the dungeon to help. I try to do the same even if I see that the group may be a challenge. I only drop if people start squabbling or do really dumb things like run ahead, agro the entire room then gripe when it is a wipe. The first "gogogo" or "heals fail" comment I hear, I'm usually out of there with an automatic drop group.

If a player doesn't understand the basics, like what his class/armor/weapon skills actually do and how they scale on his stats it's almost impossible to explain more complicated things like skill rotation and mechanics. For example taking the example of Banished Cells I, if the "healer" is a hybrid build in heavy armor, the heavy attacks from his staff may not be strong enough to break the balls until they reach the boss. Not to mention that his healing skills won't be able to fill the other player's health pools. I've seen a lot of fails like that. But in normal dungeon I slot vigor instead of talons and simply carry on. But there is only so much a properly geared, experienced player may compensate for:
- normal dungeons can be soloed, with one actual player and 3 spectators
- in vanilla game veteran dungeons and normal DLC ones a bad player, especially DD, can be carried
- in DLC veteran dungeons every failure and misunderstanding of the dungeon mechanics can lead to group wipe and inability to finish the dungeon.

1. When the hell does the game ever even give you a suggestion on how to build?

2. How are players able to build characters worth a damn if the game does not even bother to give them a sample build?

It's a larger problem, and it needs to be adressed, either now or in update 13. Until then it's no suprise when people fail, the game never gave them the tools to succeed in the first place. It never taught them mechanical synergies or what armor to wear. It never gave them so much as a 'you should probs not wear heavy armor'. Because the game has been so far warped from the design it was originally and nobody thought to give a buyers guide to the broken mess they created.

TLDR: When Zeni gives a sample build, then people get to *** about pugs not knowing wtf to do. (Not saying you did. Just making a point.)

code65536

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

When the hell does the game ever even give you a suggestion on how to build?

I can think of one instance where the game suggests something, and it's a bad one: In character creation, the character preview puts a DK in heavy armor with sword and board, a sorc in light armor with a staff, a nightblade in medium armor with dual-wield, and a Templar in heavy armor and a 2-hander.

Back when I was a newbie starting the game with zero knowledge of how the game worked (I wanted to learn it naturally, so I avoided all guides), those "suggestions" stuck hard, and coupled with my ignorance of the significance of racial choice, my main back in those days was a medium-armor dual-wielding Breton nightblade, and the very concept of a magicka nightblade was so distant and foreign that I did not even consider it as a possibility until I was well into the vet ranks. Similarly, I didn't want to play a DK or Templar at first because I didn't want to be a heavy-armor brute.

The game desperately needs a tutorial of some kind--something that goes beyond the light attacks, heavy attacks, and blocking that the Wailing Prison teaches. I've long advocated that the Undaunted introduction quest have something more useful than just telling someone to walk into Spindleclutch. Contrast that with the intro quest for Cyrodiil, where you're given hands-on experience with siege weapons and where there is a lot of dialog explaining the basics.

BlanketFort

Dubhliam wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Here is a short conversation right after the last boss, Unfortunately I didn't SS the whispers I got after leaving the group, which were the reason I blocked him.

That comes off as eliteist, insulting, and I'm not at all suprised you got told where to shove it.

Seriously?

Those three players had a combined DPS of 4k.
I am sorry if I wanted to tell them that is nowhere near enough.

If that makes me elitist, then I'll happily wear the tag.

You on the other hand can go play with these players.
Knock yourself out.
***.

Yes, insulting people and telling them they dont know how to play in the most blunt way possible makes you look like an eliteist. And that, is the most polite name I could use. "Nothing worse than a know it all" Was the exact term used. A know it all to most people is someone who acts like they have all the answers, being unintentionally insulting because of course, they know how to do it better.

And when people feel insulted their less likely to lisen.

And that's about all there is to say really. And, and this is why we cant have nice things like difficulty without making it for like 10% of the playerbase. Sorry if that wasn't what you wanted to hear.

First of all @Doctordarkspawn you are barking at the wrong tree.
I was never insulting, I know how elitist some people can be, and I don't want to be one of those people.
In fact, that kind of people that get agitated quickly and start insulting right away are the ones that will bail on the group quickly.
They don't have the patience of sticking around and helping players.

Telling someone that he does not know something is not insulting if he or she is willing to take the advice.
If he is not willing to accept help, then yes, this comes off as insulting.

I have run PUGs through veteran Imperial City Prison.
First time there for three players, I was the only one to ever beat the dungeon.
As soon as the PUG formed, I noticed some low CPs in the group and asked if there is anyone that knows the dungeon.
When they all responded this was their first time, I didn't insult or belittle them, I started giving them instructions (via text chat damnit) on how the mechanics there worked and what the appropriate tactics were.
They were patient.
They were willing to learn.
They listened to what was said.
And after a while they got out of the hardest dungeons (at the time), grateful that there was someone to show them the ropes.
They did not have best in slot legendary gear.
They did not have great DPS.
They had willpower and a hunger to improve.

So you see,

depending on how you take it.

Kudos to you. Seriously. I mean it. If I was in that group, I'd be thanking you for all the help

BlanketFort

@Synfaer I just let out a loud laugh, at work. Hilarious!

Vangy

@Dubhliam

Dude.... Chill bro.

1. Join 1 or 2 or 3 PvE trial/dungeon guilds.
2. Type " LFM for XXXXX" in chat
3. Do said content with peeps from guild.
4. If you notice a player doing exceptionally well, add him/her to your friends list. Pm with a nice "heya, awesome run, we should do this again sometime!". 99% of the time, said player will accept.
5. Rinse and repeat 1-4 until you have enough regular leet players in ur friends list.
6. Delete the idea of pugging or using group finder from your brain and ESO existence.

Save yourself the heartburn and rage that comes with puggers who wear heavy and pump 64 pts into magicka then spam snipe. Or that 2H dps-er who thinks he's a tank. Or that healer who just refuses to heal. You would also save yourself from all the wasted dorito flakes that would fly your way if you tried giving advice to people who just DONT want to learn. You cant teach someone when they have the temperance of bubble wrap. So dont bother trying. I gave up on GF so long ago. Just stick with pre-made. Much faster. Much more efficient. And is fun for all involved cos you are all playing at the same skill level/pace.

Your a friggin saint in my eyes for trying to help but some of these people would rather rot in 3 hour wipe-fest dungeons than be told their build or rotation needs work. I hope u keep trying to help puggers cos Im through. Just get labelled as bad guy no matter how nicely I try to put it.

BlanketFort

Zyrudin wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Zyrudin wrote: »

All I can tell you is that I, personally, would never leave a guildmate hanging because he doesn't play with optimal role equipment and skills - that is not proper random group behaviour for me and it certainly would be worse with a guildmate. If guildmates don't help each other then what's the purpose?

The good thing in ESO is that anyone can form their own guild with their own precepts and certainly one of them can be types of armor for each role, etc. I do think, however, that you cannot expect that from a random group finder, even though the case you presented was not the norm.

I have never asked, nor will I ever ask for "optimal" builds.
If I am asking too much if I"require" the healer to be in light armor, then I guess I really must be elitist.

The fictional scenario where I said I would give up on a guildmate was if he did not accept advice from me (see, that is called helping each other) and he would persist using Heavy Armor as a healer.

I am not saying it is impossible to heal in Heavy armor.
Heck, I even have a HA templar in Heavy armor that can simultaneously tank and heal.

But if you already have a dedicated tank in the group, and your sole role is to heal, wearing Heavy Armor only scews your performance.
If you are to stubborn to realize and accept that, I got nothing else to help you with.

The problem with ESO is that people like yourself tend to treat such basic logic as "elitist requirements" since the game itself does not impose basic logical requirements on the players.
Or fails to teach them such basics.
Because, even though all healing sets are light armor sets, there are people that still find it more logical to strap on platemail for healing.

Sure, I can accept your position on that, of course it's logical what you are saying. Numbers don't lie, but there are several ways to work them too.

What it isn't logical is for you to expect that kind of reasoning to be the norm in Random Group finder. Recruit within your guild for group runs or create a different guild for players who abide by those terms for group events.

"People like myself", despite understanding and even putting into practice that kind of logic behind certain build decisions, do not try to force a change in casual or random people who just happened to group up, but rather prefer to first adapt to the circumstances and then, if people are interested in learning a few things or getting a few tips, they will approach us and ask.

I can understand that play time is limited, of course. We all have our jobs and real lives, for sure. However, unless you are willing and able to put together a guild with like-minded people to go on dungeon runs "the logical way" (no sarcasm intended, just a label), if you use the random finder you'll just need to accept that you will probably not have an efficient a run as you'd prefer and adapt to whomever is there.

Relax and play the game.

I want to be in whatever guild you are in