Scrub mentality in group dungeons

Dubhliam

This has been an issue for a really long time.
There have been numerous threads and complaints how when someone finally gets grouped for a dungeon by the grouping tool, a high CP character will simply leave or kick a low level from group.

While I don't support such behavior, I guess I am left with no other choice than... simply stop using the grouping tool altogether.

Example of bad behaviour(original post)

Yesterday, I grouped for a random normal. I don't usually do normal dungeons, but I heard a rumor that helms drop from random normal dungeons so I applied to test it with my max CP DK tank.
As soon as I entered, I knew I was going to have a hard time because:

1. there were multiple low level players
2. one was dcing non stop, so the "vote to kick" was triggered
3. when I got into the dungeon, I noticed the group was already half way through the dungeon

But hey, I didn't want to be one of those that simply leave, so I stuck around. I mean, it's a normal dungeon. Only two more bosses to go, how long could that last?
Well, after the "vote to kick" got through, we were waiting for the 4th player. At this time the group was composed of two low leves (around lvl 20) and me. Many high CP players got allocated, but they instantly left the group. Until a CP66 came along as healer and we went to beat the boss.
The boss in question was Keeper Imiril from BC2.
As soon as we started I noticed something was terribly wrong. None of the players actually cast any skills besides an occasional BoL from the CP66 healer. Seriously, they all only used heavy and light attacks.
After a painful 5 minutes of this boss fight, instead of leaving the group like any other player would, I did the unthinkable -
I tried to help them and give them advice
The communication was almost non existent from their part. I believe their english (lol why is your forum saying this word is misspelled) was not really good, maybe even up to the point they didn't understand me.
It took me almost 4 minutes to get them to write which weapons and skills they use. At which point the CP66 started being rude and trying to hurry up the dungeon.
For your information, the composition of the group was:

• max CP DK tank - double 1H&S
• CP 66 templar healer - resto and DW
• level 19 sorcerer DD - resto and destro (although I have seen him use the destro only after my long speech)
• level 23 NB DD - 2h and bow (although I have only seen him use the bow)

I did notice more skill usage on the next boss, but the fight was still mostly resto heavy attacks (from both sorc and temp) and bow light attacks from the low level with an occasional Poison Arrow.

After we finally beat the last boss (it took us almost 5 minutes to kill a 1,6kk boss where I as tank was doing 2k DPS meaning they collectively had around 4k DPS WITH MY HORNS AND IGNEOUS WEAPONS), the CP66 started to harass me.
Honestly, I can count one one hand how many people I have on my Block list (after two years of playing) but this guy got on my list promptly. My Friend list on the other hand is huge.

So, to conclude... the next time you see someone leave your group... it's because of people like this guy and the *** we have to eat in such groups.
Get your *** together, learn the game!
You can't go into group dungeons left clicking and then shitting all over the one person trying to help you.

Example of good behaviour

I have run PUGs through veteran Imperial City Prison.
First time there for three players, I was the only one to ever beat the dungeon.
As soon as the PUG formed, I noticed some low CPs in the group and asked if there is anyone that knows the dungeon.
When they all responded this was their first time, I didn't insult or belittle them, I started giving them instructions (via text chat damnit) on how the mechanics there worked and what the appropriate tactics were.
They were patient.
They were willing to learn.
They listened to what was said.
And after a while they got out of the hardest dungeons (at the time), grateful that there was someone to show them the ropes.
They did not have best in slot legendary gear.
They did not have great DPS.
They had willpower and a hunger to improve.

Example of advice impact over time

I've tanked veteran Banished Cells with newbies before.
Their damage was so low that, even after I told them they should kill the orbs, they simply couldn't.
So in the end, we failed to complete Banished Cells.
Yes.
We gave up.

This was veteran however, and they were guildies. Even though they got out frustrated that we didn't beat it, they were convinced they did well, and it wasn't their fault.
One guy went so far to call out ZOS for making dungeons impossibly difficult.
Banished Cells. Pre-OT.

Later on (since they were guildies) I spent some time with each of those players, trying to figure out their gear, skills, attributes et cetera.
Turns out, one of them didn't have a single enchant on his gear.
The other was in Heavy armor.
The healer was okayish, but there is only so much he can do.
They listened to my feedback, and I took them all for another BC run next week.
They marveled at how easy it seemed in comparison.

Doctordarkspawn

And people will still argue for difficult dungeons in the face of group like this.

It's like trying to give someone prime rib when what they want is a Big Mac. You can show them how tastey it is but they still want big mac.

Not saying it's right. Just saying, this is how the world of pubbies are.

raglau

Dubhliam wrote: »

The communication was almost non existent from their part. I believe their english (lol why is your forum saying this word is misspelled) was not really good, maybe even up to the point they didn't understand me.

Lol, that is quite a funny story actually

Comms can be difficult with the megashard thing, lots of different languages co-habiting. It's not for me to say everyone should speak English, especially now our place in the world is diminished by the day! But there is no doubt multilanguage servers present comms issues when trying to teach people how to play.

I've been farming Arx on a lowbie alt to get some healer gear lately, and I have to tell some people not to stand in the snake boss' red stuff or he heals. I don't get a response, they keep on doing it, I believe it's simply because I am making no sense due to language issues. Still, we DPS through it, I can't change the world.

Browiseth

One Tamriel has brought in an influx of new and incredibly laid back, casual players that simply aren't prepared for playing with a group when they group with people.

Yeah, I don't get it either, but this is the sort of mentality you find from people coming over from the far more open ended and less punishing single player Elder Scrolls.

Dubhliam

Here is a short conversation right after the last boss, Unfortunately I didn't SS the whispers I got after leaving the group, which were the reason I blocked him.

mad0ni0n

Good man for sticking with it, I'm a tank too and one of the most infuriating things is when you get people just using light/heavy attacks with bow. you just get nowhere with that kind of dps. I know these people are from skyrim where you just spam light/heavy attacks all game and win (that's virtually all you can do) but they must notice they aren't doing any damage.

anyway I just wanted to get that off my chest lol, I would have probably just left in that situation especially if one guy is being a ***...

raglau

Dubhliam wrote: »

Here is a short conversation right after the last boss, Unfortunately I didn't SS the whispers I got after leaving the group, which were the reason I blocked him.

haha!

I want to see the whispers now!!

I must say, last weekend I levelled my alt healer all weekend in random normals. And every single PUG I joined was excellent. Polite, mostly skilled, knew their class, no idiocy with the red stuff, at least willing to learn and try when we got it wrong. Really decent players and there honestly was not a bad person amongst them over 3 days of intensive random dungeoneering. So it's not all bad, the Arx failures were a tiny minority in comparison to the overall experience last weekend.

alephthiago

I was never one to actually queue for dungeons but since a lot of my friends just left the game i had contact with this "other side of the game".

People spamming in boss fights:
Bow heavy attacks
Dizzying swing
Snipe
Resto heavy
Acelerating Drain
Bow light attacks

Keep in mind im not saying those skills are being used AS PART OF A ROTATION, no, they are being spammed as the main damage source.
Dots? nah, who needs that weak stuff that tics every now and then?
I try to explain how rotations really work and why their resources are lasting for 15 secs or less, but there is always some member of the party that is like "dude, come on, lets finish fast, we are fine like this" or the person you are trying to help throws something like "Hey, i like 2handed, that is my playstile, f*** o**".

It just cant be helped man.

NetflixNChiill

It's funny because I was on my lvl 40dk tank and we were doing spindleclutch normal there was 1 max cp dps and and the healer was 300 and one below 50

Just to state there was no dps lol no heals the healer was using a lightning staff lol and they were just standing in red circles and getting one shot killed lol so I had to dps and use vigor to keep them all healed we did beat it but it was a struggle lol

Not to mention tanking the bosses also

SolarCat02

Dubhliam wrote: »

Here is a short conversation right after the last boss, Unfortunately I didn't SS the whispers I got after leaving the group, which were the reason I blocked him.

At least the "green name censor" guy seemed appreciative. It looks like he/she was trying to type thanks in broken English.

I can guess where the "red name sensor" healer went in whispers. To be honest, sounds like he/she was the know it all in the conversation.

Thelon

Dubhliam wrote: »

My Friend list on the other hand is huge.

Dubhliam

NetflixNChiill wrote: »

It's funny because I was on my lvl 40dk tank and we were doing spindleclutch normal there was 1 max cp dps and and the healer was 300 and one below 50

Just to state there was no dps lol no heals the healer was using a lightning staff lol and they were just standing in red circles and getting one shot killed lol so I had to dps and use vigor to keep them all healed we did beat it but it was a struggle lol

Not to mention tanking the bosses also

That's just the thing.
I could have easily solo a normal dungeon if I had only worn my vMA gear.
And I would have done it faster!

Hell, call me Speedy Gonzalez!

raglau

NetflixNChiill wrote: »

It's funny because I was on my lvl 40dk tank and we were doing spindleclutch normal there was 1 max cp dps and and the healer was 300 and one below 50

Just to state there was no dps lol no heals the healer was using a lightning staff lol and they were just standing in red circles and getting one shot killed lol so I had to dps and use vigor to keep them all healed we did beat it but it was a struggle lol

Not to mention tanking the bosses also

I love reading these stories, as I fret that my DPS is down by say 1000 over what it might be if I refined my rotation or something. And there's this entire other world where you just turn up with any old thing and see what happens! I mean, play the game your way and all that, but at some point it would be nice to think you're making progress

The game is very accessible and you can get to lvl 50 by light attacking everything you see, so there's no huge selection pressure to make people up their game.

me_ming

Dubhliam wrote: »

The communication was almost non existent from their part. I believe their english (lol why is your forum saying this word is misspelled) was not really good, maybe even up to the point they didn't understand me.

"E" should be in uppercase as English is a proper noun.

Grammar aside though, I agree with you. I've put too many people on my "Ignore" list exactly for this reason (since I pug a lot). I have zero tolerance to people who are arrogant and rude. I normally don't care what people want to use for gear or skills. I mean, I sometimes suggest stuff, but I don't impose on what I think could better help everyone in the group to complete a content. All I really want is someone who knows how to effectively make use of their gear/skills.

Lunerdog

You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

You can lead a man to literature, but you cannot make him think.

You can try to point out their errors, only to be shot down in flames.

Then when everything goes arse end up, its you that everybody blames.


People will be people, oh well

zacvanm

Ran into an issue like this yesterday in normal wayrest. Had a couple low 20s with me, and my max cp healer guildmate. I was on my max cp DK tank. We couldn't make it past the boss that spawns all the skeevers bc they wouldn't hit my talons synergy. They said it "takes too long". So naturally the skeevers killed them rather fast and all the pressure was on the healer so we just had to leave. It was over 20 mins on the SAME boss. I can't deal with that kind of laziness. We were actively trying to help them as much as we could..

Hot_spur

I agree that you were a good guy to stick with it. I've been playing group on and off, but in the beginning only solo. So' it's taken me a while to learn how to play. Yesterday I was invited to Shada's Tear by a CP250, I'm CP400something (I know that doesn't say how good, or bad, a player is), but there was no way he and I were going to run this. So I invited a CP350 friend who is quite good, and he invited a 561 who tanked for us, who was very good.

I got frustrated because I kept getting killed in the room with all of the ghosts, and I couldn't understand the mechanics. (I need to research it before going back).

The 250 guy kept getting killed too, so eventually the other two had to finish things off.

They were very patient with us and kept making suggestions. I feel like I learned a lot in just that one dungeon.

Anyway, people who are willing to teach and coach are much appreciated by me. If you just leave, or kick the lesser player with no dialogue, you're a prick. Sorry to be blunt.

raglau

Hot_spur wrote: »

Anyway, people who are willing to teach and coach are much appreciated by me. If you just leave, or kick the lesser player with no dialogue, you're a prick. Sorry to be blunt.

I remember when I was a DPS in my first MMO, I'd actually somehow made it to quite a high level, and was in a dungeon and we wiped on a boss a couple of times. The leader, the tank, pointedly said, "res everyone except xxxx (whatever my name was)". I was so useless in terms of DPS they just left me on the floor and moved on without me ;-)

It was a wake up call and I read up about my class, turns out I had all mismatched gear, wrong stats etc., you know, the classic mistakes really, my DPS was about a 1/10th what it ought to have been as a result. It must have been going on for ages, I wish someone had told me a lot earlier as I just didn't know! It's easy with hindsight to think what a pillock I was playing so far into the game like that, but I actually didn't realise because the game was not gating my progress. There were no Youtube guides or whatever back then.

So because of that horrific experience, I always try to help if I can.

POps75p

as a 531 that does three daily normal I get called in many times, especially when the group cant finish off the last boss or are stuck. I can tell you from experience than some low level players are very dam good. I recall just a few weeks ago being called into the Prison, I noticed that the three people remaining were in their mid 20's, I sent them a message to just give up, and one of the players that had played with me b4, said that they shouldn't have any problem completing it if joined. I really didn't want to come and and spend a lot of time and grind gems, but never the less I finally joined and got in at the beginning. I started walking to find them very slowly, and noticed that nothing was left alive, and finally go to the final boss fight, and the group of three were locked inside the gate fighting the last boss, and I was just left standing outside looking I to wait for them to die. but the three of them were able to kill it and complete it. I sent them a message "i'm impressed" got my 100k experience and left the group without firing a shot.

so remember not all low levels and poor players

Dubhliam

Hot_spur wrote: »

I agree that you were a good guy to stick with it. I've been playing group on and off, but in the beginning only solo. So' it's taken me a while to learn how to play. Yesterday I was invited to Shada's Tear by a CP250, I'm CP400something (I know that doesn't say how good, or bad, a player is), but there was no way he and I were going to run this. So I invited a CP350 friend who is quite good, and he invited a 561 who tanked for us, who was very good.

I got frustrated because I kept getting killed in the room with all of the ghosts, and I couldn't understand the mechanics. (I need to research it before going back).

The 250 guy kept getting killed too, so eventually the other two had to finish things off.

They were very patient with us and kept making suggestions. I feel like I learned a lot in just that one dungeon.

Anyway, people who are willing to teach and coach are much appreciated by me. If you just leave, or kick the lesser player with no dialogue, you're a prick. Sorry to be blunt.

This is exactly what bothers me.
I don't want to be that prick.
But in the end, I will lose one hour of my limited gametime carrying some ungrateful and rude scrubs.

The only solution I can see for myself is not running dungeons via Grouping Tool.
And that is the true problem of the Grouping Tool. Not that it doesn't work, but the fact that experienced players avoid it like the plague.

If I am going to carry someone through a dungeon, and help someone out, it might as well be a guildie that I can invite to join me on Teamspeak and help him out during or after the dungeon.

Stopnaggin

All I see now is "must be cp531", it seems harder content may be going elitist. Not many people want to take their time and teach anything, they want to finish as fast as possible get the reward and move to the next. Not everyone mind you but it's showing up more and more in chat.

N2woR

I feel you, I'm a noob with only a month of play time but I've hit every YouTube channel and googled non stop since i got into ESO. I fully understand when I'm kicked (I'm cp175) and no longer get fustrated with it, their not kicking me their kicking the players you've just described or the prospect of playing what you've described. Its just hard luck that I'm wedged with them but having played with low levels myself as the tank and questioning certain things through runs I can only imagine what the players who have played ESO for X amount of years/months go through.

I enter dungeons now, not with the hope of not being kicked but with any player I'm with entering chat and giving out advise or a plan. I've learnt more from that than most videos I watched but 99% won't take advise for what it is and see it as a criticism

Pandorii

Your thread is insightful to me OP. I think as a community, we should really put our brains together to think about fixing the current system in dungeon finder. Even if it ends up being a community-implemented fix, in terms of educating new players

The root of the problem is the limited requirements for players to queue. I can see why ZOS has it set up this way though, to not exclude, especially in the context of DLC dungeons, which players 'pay' to access.

ESO is just such a complicated and multifaceted game. It's a lot for a new player to understand. Even as max CP player, I struggle understanding the mathematics behind things like spell and physical penetration, especially since they are not visible in my character sheet.

So when I run the normal random dungeon or a random dungeon and find myself with new player pugs, I feel both frustrated and excited to help out someone new. The problem is, I always feel a little awkward having that conversation because there's so much that goes into the game, I always feel like I leave them overloaded with information. In my latest experience, I politely told the group 'I don't think this group synergy is going to work," and I left. Before leaving, I politely told the members that if they wanted any tips about the game, to whisper me (rather than barking orders about how they should be playing). One guy whispered me 'I have no idea what I'm doing," and I spent the next 30 minutes coaching him about general game mechanics like crafted gear and skill rotations.

In another recent experience I had, on PC, a came across a guildie who was asking for someone to craft him/her a set of heavy ashen grip. In my mind, there were already a lot of red flags. Why ashen grip? Why heavy? but, more importantly, why wasn't the person more specific? As a crafter, I've learned that specific requests tend to get more attention than general ones (like 'can anyone craft cr 10 heavy ashen grip gloves' versus 'can anyone craft me ashen grip').

So I started asking my guildie some follow up questions to get a sense of what he/she was looking for, in hopes that someone would 'bite' and help out. I asked the level, and I asked what pieces. I explained to him the type of mat he would need 'calcinium' and tried to give him an estimate of how many ingots it would take to make 5 pieces (depending on the pieces he/she wanted). I was detailed, in hopes that in the future, he/she would be able to go to the crafting table and do that math him/herself. Turns out my guildie was a magicka player, requesting 5 ashen grip heavy pieces... awkward. I don't like to suggest builds, normally. I like to protect the 'new' experience of 'new' players and respect their ability to figure out how things work on their own or with people at their level, much like I did.

Long story short, we ended up having a 30 minute conversation where I bombarded him/her with information about how crafting works, how research works, sets, and armor types. I'm sure he/she was feeling overwhelmed. I ended up caving at the end and giving my verdict: go for 5 piece heavy seducer (since he/she liked the idea of heavy, and it's only 3 trait, so he/she could potentially craft it him/herself) and 3/4 pieces magnus. My guildie said he/she noted it, but I felt like things were left quite unexplained.

Anyway, I think that being recruited into a social guild can help with these problems, but this game isn't particularly supportive of guild formation, creation, maintenance, and loyalty. There's a lot of work to be done. Sorry I'm all over the place. It's all 'all over the place' kind of problem

TLDR: As long as we have no restrictions on dungeons, the responsibility lies in the community to educate new players, and as a member of the community, I'm not really sure how to approach those conversations. Social guilds help, but ZOS doesn't really focus on quality of life features to help social guilds.

NetflixNChiill

POps75p wrote: »

as a 531 that does three daily normal I get called in many times, especially when the group cant finish off the last boss or are stuck. I can tell you from experience than some low level players are very dam good. I recall just a few weeks ago being called into the Prison, I noticed that the three people remaining were in their mid 20's, I sent them a message to just give up, and one of the players that had played with me b4, said that they shouldn't have any problem completing it if joined. I really didn't want to come and and spend a lot of time and grind gems, but never the less I finally joined and got in at the beginning. I started walking to find them very slowly, and noticed that nothing was left alive, and finally go to the final boss fight, and the group of three were locked inside the gate fighting the last boss, and I was just left standing outside looking I to wait for them to die. but the three of them were able to kill it and complete it. I sent them a message "i'm impressed" got my 100k experience and left the group without firing a shot.

so remember not all low levels and poor players

Every time I get in a activity finder dungeon on a low level I put in group chat
531 cp don't kick me lol

Skinless_Jerk

haha funny story but this is in part your fault, you know normal dungeons don't need fully spec'd double s&b tanks haha. Would have taken a lot less longer to throw on a different weapon setup and solo'd the dungeon, it is normal after all.

I do agree though, elitist's are always going to be elitist and want to run the easiest of content with the bestestestest of groups - you even said yourself that one of first things you did was check the CP of the players already in the 'normal' dungeon - i don't even bother doing that in vet dungeons. All content in this game is easy (except a few) and low level characters are always always very appreciative of a higher cp player pretty much soloing dungeons from them.

To sum up - the group finder sucks, not as bad as it used to suck but in many ways it is a lot worse (banning you from queuing for 15 mins if someone else abandons group... nonsensical)

Skinless_Jerk

Stopnaggin wrote: »

All I see now is "must be cp531", it seems harder content may be going elitist. Not many people want to take their time and teach anything, they want to finish as fast as possible get the reward and move to the next. Not everyone mind you but it's showing up more and more in chat.

i find the one's who shout this are the one's who absolutely are in need of the help, i just ignore those ones because who needs to be cp531 to do spindleclutch.......... haha

NetflixNChiill

Lol ikr I should've just put my VO and tbs on and dps'd it myself lol

Julianos

Dubhliam wrote: »

This has been an issue for a really long time.
There have been numerous threads and complaints how when someone finally gets grouped for a dungeon by the grouping tool, a high CP character will simply leave or kick a low level from group.

While I don't support such behavior, I guess I am left with no other choice than... simply stop using the grouping tool altogether.

Yesterday, I grouped for a random normal. I don't usually do normal dungeons, but I heard a rumor that helms drop from random normal dungeons so I applied to test it with my max CP DK tank.
As soon as I entered, I knew I was going to have a hard time because:

1. there were multiple low level players
2. one was dcing non stop, so the "vote to kick" was triggered
3. when I got into the dungeon, I noticed the group was already half way through the dungeon

But hey, I didn't want to be one of those that simply leave, so I stuck around. I mean, it's a normal dungeon. Only two more bosses to go, how long could that last?
Well, after the "vote to kick" got through, we were waiting for the 4th player. At this time the group was composed of two low leves (around lvl 20) and me. Many high CP players got allocated, but they instantly left the group. Until a CP66 came along as healer and we went to beat the boss.
The boss in question was Keeper Imiril from BC2.
As soon as we started I noticed something was terribly wrong. None of the players actually cast any skills besides an occasional BoL from the CP66 healer. Seriously, they all only used heavy and light attacks.
After a painful 5 minutes of this boss fight, instead of leaving the group like any other player would, I did the unthinkable -
I tried to help them and give them advice
The communication was almost non existent from their part. I believe their english (lol why is your forum saying this word is misspelled) was not really good, maybe even up to the point they didn't understand me.
It took me almost 4 minutes to get them to write which weapons and skills they use. At which point the CP66 started being rude and trying to hurry up the dungeon.
For your information, the composition of the group was:

• max CP DK tank - double 1H&S
• CP 66 templar healer - resto and DW
• level 19 sorcerer DD - resto and destro (although I have seen him use the destro only after my long speech)
• level 23 NB DD - 2h and bow (although I have only seen him use the bow)

I did notice more skill usage on the next boss, but the fight was still mostly resto heavy attacks (from both sorc and temp) and bow light attacks from the low level with an occasional Poison Arrow.

After we finally beat the last boss (it took us almost 5 minutes to kill a 1,6kk boss where I as tank was doing 2k DPS meaning they collectively had around 4k DPS WITH MY HORNS AND IGNEOUS WEAPONS), the CP66 started to harass me.
Honestly, I can count one one hand how many people I have on my Block list (after two years of playing) but this guy got on my list promptly. My Friend list on the other hand is huge.

So, to conclude... the next time you see someone leave your group... it's because of people like this guy and the *** we have to eat in such groups.
Get your *** together, learn the game!
You can't go into group dungeons left clicking and then shitting all over the one person trying to help you.

I always leave the dungeon when i see lowbies no matter what because i have learned my lesson well when you try to advise those people or teach them they feel belittled and they attack you and call you elitist or something like that. So i let them choke on their ignorance let the noobs be with noobs.

Dubhliam

Pandorii wrote: »

Sorry I'm all over the place. It's all 'all over the place' kind of problem

That is quite true, @Pandorii

This problem has it's roots buried in many core aspects of the game.
I personally blame the lack of overall world difficulty.

One Tamriel has finally brought some much needed boosts to overland boss difficulty, but in the end it does not serve as a wake up call for anyone. It only raised whine threads.

As long as the game will allow players to play with nothing that normal attack, we will have this problem.

The other way to improve the overall knowledge of ESO basics is to implement some kind of a mentor system.
But that is far too complicated to discuss now, considering this is ZOS we are talking about.

Hot_spur

Dubhliam wrote: »

This is exactly what bothers me.
I don't want to be that prick.
But in the end, I will lose one hour of my limited gametime carrying some ungrateful and rude scrubs.

I totally understand. That's why I qualified my remark by stating if one does it without dialogue.

If I'm holding you back, and you whisper me your reasons for either leaving, or you ask me to leave, I think you are doing the right thing. I would rather be asked to leave, than just get kicked.

Dubhliam

Axorn wrote: »

I always leave the dungeon when i see lowbies no matter what because i have learned my lesson well when you try to advise those people or teach them they feel belittled and they attack you and call you elitist or something like that. So i let them choke on their ignorance let the noobs be with noobs.

You are only contributing to the negativity and the hate towards "elitism".

I can't say I blame you, since I know exactly what you speak of, but I think it would be much healthier to not PUG in the first place.