Scrub mentality in group dungeons

Dubhliam

Ozstryker wrote: »

Calm down fella...

As a support class, every member benefits from my gaining 20% SP, also as I was dual resto, are you suggesting that I should stand idle when no heals and buffs are needed?
Look anyone can misrepresent a situation to make theirselves seem the Good Samaritan, but... The language and tone u use in this post goes along way to prove how your behaviour was in said dungeon...

I am actually glad I have at least that one screenshot, otherwise this would be your word against mine.
Since you are quick to "prove" my behaviour in said dungeon.

Let's revise it again, shall we?

How's that for language and tone?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

Shame on me for picking 2.
Truly.
Shame on me.
No wonder we have so many unskilled players when nobody wants to mentor, and even those that do get shunned for doing so.

Thanks for the cookie.
And no, of course there's no "shame" in trying to teach people. Of course players of any level can always use mentors, help and advice. It's just that there's a mindset for it (we're not 24/7 ready for "advice and learning"), and a place to do it. PU groups are simply most times not the right place to do so. Guilds are.
Look at how most people react on any forum when anyone tries to teach them a thing or two about grammar and spelling. It's the same. They could learn, but they don't want to. Not here, not now, or both. Or maybe not ever. It's their choice.

daedalusAI

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Ozstryker : nice post ! There's always two sides to any story, and whether a dungeon run is going "well" or "awful" is also very subjective. One more reason to avoid giving advice without being asked for it.

Can I quote you in every random dungeon I run as low-level healer if I come across people who stand 24/7 in red, pull half the dungeon or just light/heavy attacking: "One more reason to avoid healing them without being asked for".

Sadly it's hard to not heal such particular entities due to aoe heals or smart heals.

My position is about giving advice.
You can meme my phasing however you want but it's your responsibility. I don't think it makes sense. Either you heal people and you can complete the dungeon in spite of pending L2P issues in other players (where's the problem then ?), or you heal people and you still cannot complete the dungeon (in which case you can try to give advice or leave), or you don't heal them at all and you cannot complete the dungeon and you leave (at least you know it's your own fault).

It looks like judging and lecturing others is more important to some players than completing the actual content.

You should embrace a different viewpoint: the dungeon finder only has 1 requirement: for you to be lvl 10.That's it.

There is no system in place like in FF14 where new players learn the basics about their class in a simulated training environment how to heal, how to tank, how to damage, how to dodge aoe spells, when to focus a specific enemy like a healer etc. and they receive a good starting equip if the finish all "lessons".

For eso lets assume the "worst case": a group of 4 lvl 10 doing random dungeon. Chances are there is a new player among them.
Now the dungeon starts and you already can tell that people have troubles moving out of those big red aoe markers.

Even a person who plays eso as their first game ever should have this thinking or behavior: there is something pointed out to me in big red areas - let's just avoid it to be sure.

Some don't have that thinking and die to due standing in red. I tell them to avoid red and to keep an eye open for such effects. And yet 1 still is drawn like a magnet to red areas and dies.

What should I do? I told him to avoid it and he doesn't listen/care/is unable to dodge.
Realistically I only have 2 options: leave the group, take the remaining timer on the random queue as some sort of "punishment" and move on.
Or I'm forced to double my efforts to drag this deadweight of a red aoe magnet through the dungeon to receive my random dungeon reward.

For me it really depends on the group I get: if people are too dense to understand something as basic as to move out of red I rather dodge than to get my blood pressure up.

daedalusAI

Dubhliam wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I could have soloed the dungeon.
They would not know I was doing 95% of the damage.
And they wouldn't have learned anything.

WOW. Didn't think you'd prove me right that quickly.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

It looks like judging and lecturing others is more important to some players than completing the actual content.

Yes.
You're right.

Have a cookie.

There were three options I could have done.

1. carry them as DPS
2. try to teach them to DPS
3. leave

Shame on me for picking 2.
Truly.
Shame on me.

No wonder we have so many unskilled players when nobody wants to mentor, and even those that do get shunned for doing so.

You don't get shunned for mentoring - you get shunned for shattering their illusions of "knowing" the game and pointing out their mistakes.

I prefer someone like you: point out what I do wrong so I can improve because I can't know everything even if I tried.

Dubhliam

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Shame on me for picking 2.
Truly.
Shame on me.
No wonder we have so many unskilled players when nobody wants to mentor, and even those that do get shunned for doing so.

Thanks for the cookie.
And no, of course there's no "shame" in trying to teach people. Of course players of any level can always use mentors, help and advice. It's just that there's a mindset for it (we're not 24/7 ready for "advice and learning"), and a place to do it. PU groups are simply most times not the right place to do so. Guilds are.
Look at how most people react on any forum when anyone tries to teach them a thing or two about grammar and spelling. It's the same. They could learn, but they don't want to. Not here, not now, or both. Or maybe not ever. It's their choice.

Yes, and I acknowledge that.

That's why I said I will simply avoid the Group Finder in the future and only run with guildies, regardless of gear, level or experience.
At least I won't feel like I have wasted my time carrying a stranger, and it also leaves room for advice at an undefined time after the dungeon if they are not willing to listen to advice during that particular run.

Johngo0036

hi all,

i have a level 27 Templar healer and i queued for a normal Vet dungeon,

Almost immediately i was grouped into Normal ICP,
I thought to myself this is not going to happen,

We had a lvl37 tank, 1 lvl 32 DD, 1 lvl 11 DD and my lvl 27 healer,

Off we go....
The tank was good but at times would aggro groups BIG groups of npc's,
the lvl 32 DD was cool he did constant damage and knew that standing in stupid was not cool,
The lvl11 kinda had no clue but he tried and died alot,

As a healer when guys run around its a nightmare,
the tank and lvl 32 dd where mostly together but this lvl 11 was all over,

i eventually decided that keeping the 2 higher levels alive was my focus,
if lvl 11 died i would be ok with it as a healer,

we completed it on normal and did not kick anyone even though a vote was called for the lvl11 i declined it,

raglau

Dubhliam wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

Calm down fella...

As a support class, every member benefits from my gaining 20% SP, also as I was dual resto, are you suggesting that I should stand idle when no heals and buffs are needed?
Look anyone can misrepresent a situation to make theirselves seem the Good Samaritan, but... The language and tone u use in this post goes along way to prove how your behaviour was in said dungeon...

I am actually glad I have at least that one screenshot, otherwise this would be your word against mine.
Since you are quick to "prove" my behaviour in said dungeon.

Let's revise it again, shall we?

How's that for language and tone?

Now we've heard a reasonable defence from Bill, it's difficult to really call this bad form on behalf of either party without seeing the chat beforehand to give context, do you have this? This is only a cropped snippet of a screenshot, the rest of the screengrab probably shows more.

It's a bit like those dashcam videos of someone driving like a twit, yes they are a twit but there's a feeling of something having happened before that could have provided a foundation for the small bit we see.

Dubhliam

Pibbles wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

Calm down fella...

As a support class, every member benefits from my gaining 20% SP, also as I was dual resto, are you suggesting that I should stand idle when no heals and buffs are needed?
Look anyone can misrepresent a situation to make theirselves seem the Good Samaritan, but... The language and tone u use in this post goes along way to prove how your behaviour was in said dungeon...

I am actually glad I have at least that one screenshot, otherwise this would be your word against mine.
Since you are quick to "prove" my behaviour in said dungeon.

Let's revise it again, shall we?

How's that for language and tone?

Now we've heard a reasonable defence from Bill, it's difficult to really call this bad form on behalf of either party without seeing the chat beforehand to give context, do you have this? This is only a cropped snippet of a screenshot, the rest of the screengrab probably shows more.

It's a bit like those dashcam videos of someone driving like a twit, yes they are a twit but there's a feeling of something having happened before that could have provided a foundation for the small bit we see.

THIS is the only screenshot I have, unfortunately.

It does not matter however, I am not here to shame a particular person in a particular run.
This was only an example, and judging by the feedback from other players here, this is not an isolated case.
There are many examples of similar experiences.

The general discussion here is about the problem of such mentality and lack of game knowledge and how to combat it in the long run.
Some games have better tutorials, ones that teach you about your role and responsibilities in group content.
Other games have mentor systems in place that reward players for grouping with lowbies and helping them out with certain tasks.

ESO has nothing.
Players are left to themselves, and when they don't do their homework, any additional input from other players is experienced as condescending.
While the blame rests on ZOS for not providing players with information and interactable tutorials in the first place.

Zyrudin

Not really here to take anybody's side, I would like to add my experience to the discussion and maybe it will help future occurrences.

I am no pro or expert, but I managed to put together a pretty decent CP 517 healer without recurring to meta (which I care nothing about, to be honest). I have a lot of fun doing group dungeons with that char and, when nobody from the guild is available I use the random group finder without problems.

One time I was grouped with a good tank, a decent dd and the other dd seemed to struggle a lot, both in damage dealing and damage avoidance.

"No problem, that's what I'm here for" - I thought, and did everything to keep the group alive.

The second DD died a few times, yes, but we did finish the dungeon all together. Not once did I tell the second DD what I may have though they were doing wrong, nor did I suggest any changes in skills or armor. I did chat with that second DD midway through the dungeon as I was whispered by he/she, apologizing about the troubles and I just said something to this effect: "Hey, you're doing great, can you just help get those mobs off me, so I can heal better, please?"

From that moment on, guys, I can just say it was a whole different story. Dodging AoE's, using more efficient skills against the boss' side mobs and more useful to the group. Maybe all he/she needed was to feel useful and to have a purpose, a task, in the group.

At the end we were able to exchange a few ideas about strategies and such.

If you find yourself among lower levels or if you believe you are a better player, be adaptive, first of all, and also make sure you think of the group as a unit. It is the group, not one player, that beats the challenge. I, myself, expect nothing preset from a random group I get through the finder and am able to adapt as much as I can for the group victory, regardless of my level in relation to the others. I've had extraordinarily skilled players, I've had strugglers and I've had nice people and obnoxious too, in random groups. The thing is if you are worried only about the drop and not about enjoying the game (which is, being a MMO, playing with others in a group) then I believe, personally, that there may be something wrong with the way you approach the game. Regardless of how many videos or meta is available, there isn't just one way to run a dungeon or to work as a team.

Some teams are easier to work with, some harder, but that's the game too, in my opinion.

Drdeath20

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

The bottom line is that unwanted advice is horrible at worst and wasted at best.

I was with guildies on TeamSpeak on sunday night and they asked me to join them on the Arx Corinium pledge. I warned them that I was on my newly created DK - and since it's my first DK ever, I have no clue yet what I'm doing when playing it. With the current XP boost, you can have a full-blown CP561+ character within a couple of hours, and still have to learn to play it from scratch. Also, I lacked skill points and gear.

They needed undaunted keys so they insisted on doing it on vet HM. I warned them again that I was nowhere near optimized but I said OK, knowing that the other DPS was an excellent player around the 30K+ DPS. And so we went through the dungeon tank and healer were good, other DPS pulling 30K and me pulling around 8K. It was a little bit slower than usual but we completed the pledge without major issues.

While nobody was mad at me for performing quite poorly (they had been warned), they couldn't help "teaching me" during the entire dungeon on "how to play a mDK DPS" !! I said nothing because I didn't want to hurt them, but I wish they had just shut up. I know I need gear, I know I need skill points, I know I need to do some research, and I know I need practice. It's an entirely new class for me, you don't master that in a couple of hours. It was late and I wasn't ready for advice. It was annoying and wasted. Simple as that.

OP, in your story your intentions were good and all, and you've been very patient, but you tried to give advice to people who did not ask for it and did not want it. That's annoying and wasted.
But don't generalize. Next PUG you might stumble upon people who need advice and are ready to receive some, and in that case, the experience will be positive for the whole group.

8K dps is good for a lowbie. I get into pugs where guys are pulling like 4. These guys joined vet dungeons as a DD too.

They also stand in the red/flames
Have zero clue on specific dungeon mechanics.
Only use 1 skill
No self sustain
They dont Avoid the boss's 1 shot mechanic

Some dungeon you need to know specific things and sometimes it's not obvious. For instance crypt of hearts on veteran mode. Well you need to know that you must purify yourself after the boss lifts you up with the bubble.

It's a simple procedure but if you dont know the mechanics of the dungeon it can be something that goes unknown. In turn it strains the healer and then when the boss let's out his big AoE, the healer cannot keep up.

Ozstryker

It all comes down to delivery, sure offer advise.. But if u tell someone they are *** berate them and then use a condescending tone in that advise, then u come off as as a know-all bully!

I believe that u think u were doing these lower lvl guys a favour, but actually they were not half as bad as you have made out here, you did not really offer any solid advise... Other than L2P

Also your screen shot... Please...... I can't work out why u used that snippet, sure i lowered myself and you certainly said worse to everyone else in the group... But I guess that it would not have served your purpose to show any more?

I wish you luck, enjoy the game... It's S'posed to be fun champ

daedalusAI

Zyrudin wrote: »

Not really here to take anybody's side, I would like to add my experience to the discussion and maybe it will help future occurrences.

I am no pro or expert, but I managed to put together a pretty decent CP 517 healer without recurring to meta (which I care nothing about, to be honest). I have a lot of fun doing group dungeons with that char and, when nobody from the guild is available I use the random group finder without problems.

One time I was grouped with a good tank, a decent dd and the other dd seemed to struggle a lot, both in damage dealing and damage avoidance.

"No problem, that's what I'm here for" - I thought, and did everything to keep the group alive.

The second DD died a few times, yes, but we did finish the dungeon all together. Not once did I tell the second DD what I may have though they were doing wrong, nor did I suggest any changes in skills or armor. I did chat with that second DD midway through the dungeon as I was whispered by he/she, apologizing about the troubles and I just said something to this effect: "Hey, you're doing great, can you just help get those mobs off me, so I can heal better, please?"

From that moment on, guys, I can just say it was a whole different story. Dodging AoE's, using more efficient skills against the boss' side mobs and more useful to the group. Maybe all he/she needed was to feel useful and to have a purpose, a task, in the group.

At the end we were able to exchange a few ideas about strategies and such.

If you find yourself among lower levels or if you believe you are a better player, be adaptive, first of all, and also make sure you think of the group as a unit. It is the group, not one player, that beats the challenge. I, myself, expect nothing preset from a random group I get through the finder and am able to adapt as much as I can for the group victory, regardless of my level in relation to the others. I've had extraordinarily skilled players, I've had strugglers and I've had nice people and obnoxious too, in random groups. The thing is if you are worried only about the drop and not about enjoying the game (which is, being a MMO, playing with others in a group) then I believe, personally, that there may be something wrong with the way you approach the game. Regardless of how many videos or meta is available, there isn't just one way to run a dungeon or to work as a team.

Some teams are easier to work with, some harder, but that's the game too, in my opinion.

I agree for the most part except this one bit: the group beats the challenge but if 1 player out of 4 isn't performing on a certain level that means the group as a whole isn't beating the challenge but the other 3 players are compensating for that 1 person - something you even pointed out and labeled as "adapting".

Some people don't mind having to drag such a person trough a dungeon while others - myself included in a lot of cases - find it almost insulting to join a dungeon while you clearly lack basics like understanding of skills, weapon swapping once unlocked, avoiding red, difference between light/heavy attacks etc.

Some things like avoiding red or skill rotations you can only learn on a higher level while doing dungeons but if you join a dungeon and don't ask questions or point out at the start that you're new to the game and/or dungeon and give me a chance to explain certain things I expect that you know the basics - and if you prove to me that you don't understand basics while practicing silence I feel insulted and my motivation drops to below 0.

Zyrudin

daedalusAI wrote: »

I agree for the most part except this one bit: the group beats the challenge but if 1 player out of 4 isn't performing on a certain level that means the group as a whole isn't beating the challenge but the other 3 players are compensating for that 1 person - something you even pointed out and labeled as "adapting".

Some people don't mind having to drag such a person trough a dungeon while others - myself included in a lot of cases - find it almost insulting to join a dungeon while you clearly lack basics like understanding of skills, weapon swapping once unlocked, avoiding red, difference between light/heavy attacks etc.

Some things like avoiding red or skill rotations you can only learn on a higher level while doing dungeons but if you join a dungeon and don't ask questions or point out at the start that you're new to the game and/or dungeon and give me a chance to explain certain things I expect that you know the basics - and if you prove to me that you don't understand basics while practicing silence I feel insulted and my motivation drops to below 0.

Thanks, Daedalus.

Well, I think those are quite extreme cases, although I agree that they do occur (as I have witnessed that too), it is not at all the majority of the experience.

In those few cases, what eventually happens is that that person will either actually understand what the AoE circle is and jump or run out of it and see others interrupt and do the same, trying to catch up or they themselves will leave the group instance. I've very rarely had complete silence.

Still, like I said, from my experience these are a tiny minority of cases. Maybe I've just been lucky most of the times

Dubhliam

Ozstryker wrote: »

It all comes down to delivery, sure offer advise.. But if u tell someone they are *** berate them and then use a condescending tone in that advise, then u come off as as a know-all bully!

I believe that u think u were doing these lower lvl guys a favour, but actually they were not half as bad as you have made out here, you did not really offer any solid advise... Other than L2P

Also your screen shot... Please...... I can't work out why u used that snippet, sure i lowered myself and you certainly said worse to everyone else in the group... But I guess that it would not have served your purpose to show any more?

I wish you luck, enjoy the game... It's S'posed to be fun champ

Not half as bad?

It was a damn NORMAL DUNGEON.
The boss has 1,6 million health.
Fact.
The boss fight lasted 5 minutes.
Fact.

Do the math.

They were terrible.
And I was as polite as I could be, but you simply cannot go around the fact that they sucked.

I mean, the NB literally just planted himself on the side during the Keeper fight, and spammed bow light attacks.
The sorc DD spammed resto heavy attacks.
The mob spawns did not die in the time frame before the boss reappears, and we had both mobs and the boss at the same time.
IN A NORMAL BANISHED CELLS 2!

We are not talking about veteran dungeons and people not following mechanics.
These people don't have a clue!
And if you think they do, I might be inclined you don't either.

And, I could not give them any solid advice because YOU interrupted and started being rude and trying to hurry up the dungeon.
YOU think you know it all, YOU are the one that didn't want to listen.

As I said before, if only there was one more newbie player instead of you in the dungeon, those three players might have learned a thing or two.

daedalusAI

Zyrudin wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

I agree for the most part except this one bit: the group beats the challenge but if 1 player out of 4 isn't performing on a certain level that means the group as a whole isn't beating the challenge but the other 3 players are compensating for that 1 person - something you even pointed out and labeled as "adapting".

Some people don't mind having to drag such a person trough a dungeon while others - myself included in a lot of cases - find it almost insulting to join a dungeon while you clearly lack basics like understanding of skills, weapon swapping once unlocked, avoiding red, difference between light/heavy attacks etc.

Some things like avoiding red or skill rotations you can only learn on a higher level while doing dungeons but if you join a dungeon and don't ask questions or point out at the start that you're new to the game and/or dungeon and give me a chance to explain certain things I expect that you know the basics - and if you prove to me that you don't understand basics while practicing silence I feel insulted and my motivation drops to below 0.

Thanks, Daedalus.

Well, I think those are quite extreme cases, although I agree that they do occur (as I have witnessed that too), it is not at all the majority of the experience.

In those few cases, what eventually happens is that that person will either actually understand what the AoE circle is and jump or run out of it and see others interrupt and do the same, trying to catch up or they themselves will leave the group instance. I've very rarely had complete silence.

Still, like I said, from my experience these are a tiny minority of cases. Maybe I've just been lucky most of the times

Or you're more tolerant towards such people who stay silent and wait for someone to pick them up and explain things.

Biro123

Never done a vet dungeon in a group before - cos threads like these just put me off.

Hell, before today I'd never done a Vet dung full-stop. Always thought I'd under-perform,/not understand my role/not be optimised enough for it and let the side down (and perhaps get called out for it) - or worried about maybe having to leave part way through for RL stuff, letting everyone down..

Solo'd my first vet dung this morning. So I guess I probably could have been doing these for ages in a group. Still not good enough for the CP561 only, or experienced only groups though!

Mephilis78

I never see anyone else do this with bow or staff. When you fully charge a heavy you can release it and another skill at literally the exact same time. It more than doubles you damage, you get crit more frequently, and it makes the resources last a lot longer. I do this a part of a rotation, but I just never see anyone doing this. Furthermore, I see people that never use heavy attacks and think about how much stam or mag is being wasted on them. Haven't ever brought it up in game, guess I could teach some people.

Asardes

Dubhliam wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

It all comes down to delivery, sure offer advise.. But if u tell someone they are *** berate them and then use a condescending tone in that advise, then u come off as as a know-all bully!

I believe that u think u were doing these lower lvl guys a favour, but actually they were not half as bad as you have made out here, you did not really offer any solid advise... Other than L2P

Also your screen shot... Please...... I can't work out why u used that snippet, sure i lowered myself and you certainly said worse to everyone else in the group... But I guess that it would not have served your purpose to show any more?

I wish you luck, enjoy the game... It's S'posed to be fun champ

Not half as bad?

It was a damn NORMAL DUNGEON.
The boss has 1,6 million health.
Fact.
The boss fight lasted 5 minutes.
Fact.

Do the math.

They were terrible.
And I was as polite as I could be, but you simply cannot go around the fact that they sucked.

I mean, the NB literally just planted himself on the side during the Keeper fight, and spammed bow light attacks.
The sorc DD spammed resto heavy attacks.
The mob spawns did not die in the time frame before the boss reappears, and we had both mobs and the boss at the same time.
IN A NORMAL BANISHED CELLS 2!

We are not talking about veteran dungeons and people not following mechanics.
These people don't have a clue!
And if you think they do, I might be inclined you don't either.

And, I could not give them any solid advice because YOU interrupted and started being rude and trying to hurry up the dungeon.
YOU think you know it all, YOU are the one that didn't want to listen.

As I said before, if only there was one more newbie player instead of you in the dungeon, those three players might have learned a thing or two.

You're lucky that they caught some of the balls. I earned CPs between 300-500 (was the cap at the time) just queuing for a dozen dungeons a day in the tool with random groups. As tank the queue was quite short. With some groups Rilis was immortal, because they didn't bother to read the chat and actually break the balls. I think with one group it lasted for ~20 minutes before I gave up and left

And the heavy attack spammers are not just lowbies. Encountered them twice in one week. One of them was one of the DDs in a VICP pledge no less. I was lucky that the other 2 were good players. For the boss fight he was mostly pushing daisies so at least he didn't get sucked in portals to screw them up

Drdeath20

There is no tutorial for the dungeon. Inexperienced players are clueless about what it takes to get through most of these dungeons. If somebody is trying to help take it for what it is. For the person trying to help just verbalizing a solution gives them peace of mind.

Guy keeps messing up. I offer advice. They don't follow advice. I atleast feel vindicated that I have done all I could to help my group.

People's time is precious. I'll give somebody the benefit of the doubt, nobody's perfect. But if there is a glaring problem expect me to say something. I don't want a 30 minute dungeon to turn into hours and countless wipes.

Zyrudin

daedalusAI wrote: »

Or you're more tolerant towards such people who stay silent and wait for someone to pick them up and explain things.

Yeah, but I'd still go for luckier, because I don't see it (the silent thing, mind you) happening with me often, so tolerance does not even get involved mostly.

Dubhliam

Asardes wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

It all comes down to delivery, sure offer advise.. But if u tell someone they are *** berate them and then use a condescending tone in that advise, then u come off as as a know-all bully!

I believe that u think u were doing these lower lvl guys a favour, but actually they were not half as bad as you have made out here, you did not really offer any solid advise... Other than L2P

Also your screen shot... Please...... I can't work out why u used that snippet, sure i lowered myself and you certainly said worse to everyone else in the group... But I guess that it would not have served your purpose to show any more?

I wish you luck, enjoy the game... It's S'posed to be fun champ

Not half as bad?

It was a damn NORMAL DUNGEON.
The boss has 1,6 million health.
Fact.
The boss fight lasted 5 minutes.
Fact.

Do the math.

They were terrible.
And I was as polite as I could be, but you simply cannot go around the fact that they sucked.

I mean, the NB literally just planted himself on the side during the Keeper fight, and spammed bow light attacks.
The sorc DD spammed resto heavy attacks.
The mob spawns did not die in the time frame before the boss reappears, and we had both mobs and the boss at the same time.
IN A NORMAL BANISHED CELLS 2!

We are not talking about veteran dungeons and people not following mechanics.
These people don't have a clue!
And if you think they do, I might be inclined you don't either.

And, I could not give them any solid advice because YOU interrupted and started being rude and trying to hurry up the dungeon.
YOU think you know it all, YOU are the one that didn't want to listen.

As I said before, if only there was one more newbie player instead of you in the dungeon, those three players might have learned a thing or two.

You're lucky that they caught some of the balls. I earned CPs between 300-500 (was the cap at the time) just queuing for a dozen dungeons a day in the tool with random groups. As tank the queue was quite short. With some groups Rilis was immortal, because they didn't bother to read the chat and actually break the balls. I think with one group it lasted for ~20 minutes before I gave up and left

I've tanked veteran Banished Cells with newbies before.
Their damage was so low that, even after I told them they should kill the orbs, they simply couldn't.
So in the end, we failed to complete Banished Cells.
Yes.
We gave up.

This was veteran however, and they were guildies. Even though they got out frustrated that we didn't beat it, they were convinced they did well, and it wasn't their fault.
One guy went so far to call out ZOS for making dungeons impossibly difficult.
Banished Cells. Pre-OT.

Later on (since they were guildies) I spent some time with each of those players, trying to figure out their gear, skills, attributes et cetera.
Turns out, one of them didn't have a single enchant on his gear.
The other was in Heavy armor.
The healer was okayish, but there is only so much he can do.
They listened to my feedback, and I took them all for another BC run next week.
They marveled at how easy it seemed in comparison.

Now, once again, this example in the OP is normal BC2.
Yes, at least I saw some usage of skills on the Sisters.
But they didn't get any background knowledge of the game - how to increase resource management, how does damage work in ESO, because I did not have time to present it.
I don't know what armor they used, the problem was probably the same it always is: people tend to stick with HA, and lose resources pretty fast.
But they don't know any better because nobody told them.
The game certainly didn't.
I mean seriously, the whole "play the way you want" crap ZOS is feeding everyone should be met with at least a little bit of intelligence.

Asardes

Heavy armor sucks badly at both resource management and damage dealing. I can't figure out why some people pick it for PvE. They probably don't bother to read the tool tips.

Lava_Croft

Wrobel better make some changes so the game is easier to play for the people OP was playing with.

raglau

Drdeath20 wrote: »

There is no tutorial for the dungeon. Inexperienced players are clueless about what it takes to get through most of these dungeons.

The issue there is that you don't know what you don't know. ESO is very casual orientated and it's entirely possible to get to lvl 50 from doing overland stuff; quests, public dungeons etc., and that content - whilst enjoyable - is entirely 'faceroll', as they say. It is only when grouping that there is a dependency on that character - which they are probably entirely unaware of, having already done public dungeons they may view group dungeons as a subtly different iteration of the same - and it could come as a complete surprise that they are not pulling their weight. Humans being what they are, many people's first reaction is to be defensive and the conversation can turn sour.

That's not to say that things don't sink in somewhere, and that player may go and learn what he needs to later when he/she is no longer defensive.

Drdeath20

Asardes wrote: »

Heavy armor sucks badly at both resource management and damage dealing. I can't figure out why some people pick it for PvE. They probably don't bother to read the tool tips.

You don't weave?

Ozstryker

That was u being polite??

Anyone who has done these bosses would have to agree that 5mins to beat the last guy is not a bad effort, dunno what you saw but no extra respawns, all orbs gone... Everyone debugged??!
You do the math! Give it a rest guy

Asardes

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Heavy armor sucks badly at both resource management and damage dealing. I can't figure out why some people pick it for PvE. They probably don't bother to read the tool tips.

You don't weave?

Yes, I do quite a lot as a tank. Usually heavy attack with heroic slash to also maximize ultimate regeneration. But a DD that does that half the time will not pull enough DPS for any normal dungeon, let alone veteran. And heavy armor has neither the weapon damage and critical that medium has, nor the penetration and spell critical light does. Not to mention the regeneration passives for stamina and magicka respectively. Constitution passive doesn't work on DD or healer, because they should get hit a lot to proc it. Which they don't want to, because being hit with 5-7K from trash mobs and 20K from boss is not pleasant, even in heavy armor, when your health is ~17-18K.

Junipus

Asardes wrote: »

Heavy armor sucks badly at both resource management and damage dealing. I can't figure out why some people pick it for PvE. They probably don't bother to read the tool tips.

Therein lies the problem.

Sure you can be casual and equip stuff because it looked nice or you were just missing a piece and go into dungeons and do so little you're going backwards, but if you wanted to improve you'd be more active.

The game might be lacking in certain tutorials (something I think they've made improvements on, but I've not noticed personally) but if you want to improve then you find out yourself. If you bought and gun and shot yourself in the head you'd either be a moron and blame the gun manufacturers or you'd ask people how to use one and/or read the instruction manual.

Hot_spur

Dubhliam wrote: »

ESO has nothing

^^This.

I've been playing this game for a year - mostly solo. Now the only content left for me is either PVP, or grouping. (I don't like getting ganked by smug elitists, so I have avoided Cyrodil. Haven't been there in at least six months.) Or so I thought.

Last night I formed a pug for Skyreach Catacombs. A guy whispered me to join, then another. For the fourth I invited a friend. (The Cps are irrelevant.)

The first guy to join me was a veteran player, but hadn't played in a couple of months, and therefore admitted he'd be a little rusty.

On the contrary, he carried the group. Constantly asking questions about our rigs, and making suggestions about tactics. He asked me if I had food, which I did. He said if you're not using health food, you're going to keep getting one shotted by bosses. I said I use stam food so I can keep attacking. He asked what I use and I told him beet risotto. He asked what color, and I said white. I could almost see his eyes roll, when he said "That's the worst." So he gave me some food - FREE. It was blue (can't remember the name right now) and it buffed both health and stam. I didn't even know such stuff existed, as I always buy food from chefs.

So he talked to me about provisioning, which I know zero about.

So back to my comment about the only content left is PVP or grouping. WRONG!

Now I can learn to begin provisioning. Whole new game line.

That's why I want people to continue to mentor.

There's no flipping manual.

Drdeath20

Asardes wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Heavy armor sucks badly at both resource management and damage dealing. I can't figure out why some people pick it for PvE. They probably don't bother to read the tool tips.

You don't weave?

Yes, I do quite a lot as a tank. Usually heavy attack with heroic slash to also maximize ultimate regeneration. But a DD that does that half the time will not pull enough DPS for any normal dungeon, let alone veteran. And heavy armor has neither the weapon damage and critical that medium has, nor the penetration and spell critical light does. Not to mention the regeneration passives for stamina and magicka respectively. Constitution passive doesn't work on DD or healer, because they should get hit a lot to proc it. Which they don't want to, because being hit with 5-7K from trash mobs and 20K from boss is not pleasant, even in heavy armor, when your health is ~17-18K.

And a dead healer is a useless healer. The biggest perk of heavy armor is the armor rating.