Scrub mentality in group dungeons

raglau

Soafee wrote: »

I'm so not looking forward to getting into grouping. I'm only level 10 (level 10, not 50+ cp or whatever level 10.) and if it's people like you that are going to lose your cool because of the way I'm playing it's going to suck the fun out of it for me so fast.

I also tend to agree with you about the OP in this thread. Initially I thought he had a point but after reading more and more of what he says, plus what the healer from the group in question had to say, I think the OP is the problem.

But please take it from me, it's incredibly rare to have any form of issue in a group. I have been playing since beta and I've seen it a handful of times. e.g. I've been heavily playing in random groups since the beginning of the Festival and all have been exemplary.

Please do not be put off by this thread and others like it. Keyboard warriors come to the forum to whine, but real warriors are too busy in game to whine!

Gargath

I also feel, that some fresh players choose the bows because, as already mentioned above, it's a cool looking weapon and "it rocks like in Skyrim".
Only a few compare the weapon stats and overall damage per second with other CP or non CP players (guildies for example) to see if their bow build is good enough. Yes, maybe enough for sniping from stealth in overland mobs, but not enough for dungeon.
Even less understand that bow is probably one od the worst for group activities in this game, because it needs a mastery in understanding of how to effectively mix the abilities with light/heavy attacks. Most newbies playing nightblade with bow don't know how to self-heal, when to heal, don't use Draining Shot, don't know how the Leeching Strikes works for sustain when they are low on stamina.
They prefer to yell for everybody else, especially templars, because templars refuse to give shards to nightblades when they depleted all stam for sniping. Man, these people are annoying me so much.

Zyrudin

Gargath wrote: »

I also feel, that some fresh players choose the bows because, as already mentioned above, it's a cool looking weapon and "it rocks like in Skyrim".
Only a few compare the weapon stats and overall damage per second with other CP or non CP players (guildies for example) to see if their bow build is good enough. Yes, maybe enough for sniping from stealth in overland mobs, but not enough for dungeon.
Even less understand that bow is probably one od the worst for group activities in this game, because it needs a mastery in understanding of how to effectively mix the abilities with light/heavy attacks. Most newbies playing nightblade with bow don't know how to self-heal, when to heal, don't use Draining Shot, don't know how the Leeching Strikes works for sustain when they are low on stamina.
They prefer to yell for everybody else, especially templars, because templars refuse to give shards to nightblades when they depleted all stam for sniping. Man, these people are annoying me so much.

I understand.
Though, despite all your sound reasoning, I personally would never refuse to throw a shard due to wasted resources. I may fail to do so if I am overcrowded and have to defend myself, but never out of spite.

In random groups we have to accept that we are going to get players from the whole spectrum - but we're still in a group and we're still going to be in a team (even if a bad one). Sure maybe it takes longer or maybe it won't work out at all, but if we offer ourselves to be paired with strangers, the very least we should have is some patience. We shouldn't deny to help because the player lacks understanding of what he's doing.

This is a game, not the army, right?

Ozstryker

[/quote]

I didn't even have time to give out the advice in this particular example in the OP.
The CP66 healer started being rude and interrupted me while I was trying to figure out what the group was using in terms of weapons and skills.

So, no. I wasn't upset because my advice was not valued accepted and followed. I wasn't upset at all. Because I did not have time to properly advise them.
If I had gotten upset, I would leave the dungeon.
Simple as that.
The CP66 healer on the other hand DID get upset. Just because he did not want to get advised.

As I said before, the example in the OP is just that - an example.
This thread is should in no way revolve around that particular event.
This thread is about the general attitude of players that don't accept advice, the general lack of tutorials and knowledge the game provides, and everything else that contributes to such situations.



There you go again, still playing the victim.... U wer'nt interrupted, you were the one interrupting the progress of the dungeon, belittling lower lvl players cos they wer'nt playing the way you wanted them to.... These guys did not ask for your help or vitriol and i say again despite your BS these guys were not as bad as you make out..... (Although you will argue they were and that I just interrupted cos I'm some sort'a gogogo healer QQ)
Is it just that u needed a whinge, or did u need to make a point on the forums, either way sux for you that your example has been called out!

I can count on one hand folk like you I've come across in eso, but, I've come across countless folk who are able to articulate and deliver solid and constructive advice.... Whether asked for or not!
Even creating a thread catagorising folk as scrubs is kinda childish

But on a parting note, I ran some dungeons last night and realised that I do over-use heavy attack, even when I don't need to recover magica.. so I'm currently trying to figure a dmg skill I can slot in somewhere, so i Concede....that perhaps I should thank you for that.... at least.

Tinus_92

I've used the halloween plunder skulls event to start grinding a character on the other server (PC/NA instead of EU), and decided to start with a dungeon once I've hit lvl 50. Being on low CP with a relatively weak build, I decided to pug for a normal random instead of the usual vet I'm doing on PC/EU. Got myself some training gear (julianos/torugs) crafted by a grinding mate I've recently met. With a copied build from my main, the mayor difference is the lack of CP, money and access to endgame gear.

Ended up in fungal II (normal mode):
- DK tank on lvl 36, unknown CP.
- Templar healer 300+
- Nightblade DD 561+
- And myself, a templar DD on just above 10CP.

Our nightblade instantly left and got replaced by a magsorc dd 250+.

Run into the first adds, and continued up to the first boss. Knowing how a magplar works, using a lot of AoE + multi-target attacks, I was doing 75% of our groups damage. Our healer wasn't doing much more then overhealing our group with healing spreaks + BoL and our sorcerer spamming pets, overload and heavy attacks with his lightning staff. Most surprising was the tank, using spiked armor, talons, selfheals, chains and even running molten weapons continuously.

First boss did take longer as I'm used to but with our healers non-stoppable healing springs we had no problem with this boss. Our sorcerer also stood in the red continuously directly on the boss even if using ranged only. So we moved on to the 2nd boss, which is were things went seriously wrong.

Although once again the tank did well, keeping aggro constantly without dying, there was no movement at all when players got hit with the lightning chain. Within the first minute, sorcerer down. Other players got chained, still our healer only spamming breath of life with an occasional healing spring, without not-moving-at-all. Lightning chain, sorcerer down once again. I got chained, healer still decides to continue healing instead of rezzing or destroying the adds. Boss split up in shadows, tank trying to ressurect us but had to cancel that to avoid death. Pulling the boss away from us still lying down there was no resurrection at all. Still healing, and ofc none of the adds got killed. Takes a lot of patience, but the tank had to get all adds down on his own. Boss went back, heal got chained and of course our low lvl tank can't manage to get those chains down quick enough. After the healer, tank went down with the next chains too, after a few attempts to resurrect the other members.

Sorcerer left in rage for a still unknown reason, and told by PM to increase our level first before joining random dungeons. Healer told us that we should play better and to avoid death, without any explanation on that, and left as well. Told the tank he was doing a great job for his level and asked if he was on an alternative character. Answered with that this was his first character and and joined eso just a few weeks back.

Decided to do a 2nd random with the tank, ended with 2 other lvl 30's and finished spindle II in around 20 minutes, smoothless.


Nearly hitting 160CP on the NA server, can't wait to do more pugs, pledges & trials and beat those high-lvl CP's after I got myself a proper build.

Wolfhammer

Pandorii wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Nax wrote: »

Oh my goodness do I have a similar story from last night. The group finder placed me with a Tank over 500 CP, one DD just over 300 CP, and the other DD just over 200. I was the healer, at the CP cap, not that it matters. The Tank mostly knew what he was doing, but the DDs were another story. One of them was a stam NB or DK (I don't remember) using DW and Bow, and the other was a Sorc using... wait for it... Destro and 2H. Now, you're probably thinking that the Sorc must've done little to no damage at all, considering the weapons he chose to use... Wrong! Of the two DDs, he did most of the damage, while the other dude spammed Steel Tornado with light attacks in between while occasionally switching to his bow bar to apply buffs and caltrops. And when I say spammed Steel Tornado, I mean for single target boss fights as well.

Anyway, needless to say, the dungeon was a bit of a grind, but we made it through to the last boss... Until it started to spawn adds. I kid you not, the spin-to-win spamming DD then proceeded to light attack every single add INSTEAD of spinning to win, and with the low damage output, the continuous spawn of adds, and the tank dying to a one-shot, we wiped.

At that point I had about enough, so I asked, "Hey, why are you just spamming Steel Tornado on the boss? You should try throwing other attacks like Poison Injection, Rending Slashes and Endless Hail in too, and using a single target attack skill on the boss. Save your AOE for the adds."

This guy then PULLED THE BOSS, stopped fighting after about five seconds, and said "Are you blind? I'm light attack weaving in between. And my steel tornado does 20k dps while my flurry does 18k."

And just to throw it out there, I was wearing fully upgraded SPC and Aether, and so was already buffing him like crazy... I got a bit more annoyed at this point and stated this fact, which, hey, perhaps wasn't the politest way to go about saying it, but I digress.

This dude next typed out his rotation in chat (which, surprise surprise, consisted of spin to win, class buff, caltrops and light attacks), said "This is a joke", and left the group... all while the poor tank and other DD are still in combat, having chipped away at 3% of the boss's health while this conversation went on, bless them!

In this guy's mind I had completely no clue what I was talking about. I mean, I'm not the the best DD in the game, but I know that spamming an AOE skill on a single target boss fight is not the way to go. Some people simply refuse to be helped.

Oh yeah, this reminds me.
Did I mention that the destro resto Sorc had the Hurricane Morph?

That sounds like a hybrid build to me. Hybrid builds can work. They're just naturally inferior to pure builds thanks to ZOS. They have their place, and group dungeons really isn't one of them. However, a fully golded optimized hybrid can potentially out DPS an unskilled undergeared pure build with a bad rotation. =D

Think he's pointing out the fact that the Sorc was specced for ranged dps but was still using an ability designed for melee..

Artis

bigredsnake wrote: »

Yeah because some of us liked the role playing aspect of these games. But you MMO heads want the same thing in every MMO you ever play. You don't care about the lore, the storyline, you just wanna grind for gear, kiss up to a guild, and make a build that is the exact same as everyone else's in that role's build. I don't even know why these games offer lots of choices since you guys all want your healer, tank, dpses, mana healers (thank God ESO didn't do that snoozer), etc to all be the exact same thing for their power set.

It gets old if you're actually trying to attract anyone other than you guys. Frankly they should ignore you guys, you're mostly addicts anyways, you'll play regardless until enough of your friends move on the next MMO fix. You won't leave and most of you can't anyways barring something really radical.

Also most gamers can't stand MMO heads and we're just here because we liked Skyrim. Also we blame all of you for the tone down in violence. I know it gets in the way of all those stupid numbers you have to have. You probably play in 3rd person with the camera zoomed out because there's nothing more Elder Scrolls than that.

Well apparently they are the playing and paying majority, so the games will be done for them. However, you can' t blame. People want to complete the dungeon and go do something else, not many people want to keep wiping with players who didn't bother to read guides or figure out what works best for their class.

I don't mind RPers, but they can also be good and bad. You can play your special snowflake build solo, in open world, with friends, but when you go somewhere where you need ot get the job done - respect others and get the job done. They aren't preventing you from doing your thing. I played with some really good players who did RP too. You just need to realize, that there's time and place for everything and that you shouldn't pull your RP builds on other players without their affirmative consent


But seriously, scrub mentality is getting out of control. Just yesterday this DPS who had 600+ cp and didn't know fights would do the opposite of what we told him, ruining others' rhythm etc etc and then he dared to tell me that I had no "group synergy and I need ot work on that" or some nonsense like that including "L2pvenoobs". And we're talking the guy who used fully charged heavy attacks and impulse or ele ring on single target fights in his rotation. Scrubs like that will tell people who play since release and completed absolutely everything that they are noobs. Basically, his attitude sabotaged the run, tank and healer had enough of it and left (those 2 are a different story, healer would come behind me as I rez when the boss charged to him and interrupted my rez 3 times in a row lol).

The point is, the game shouldn't teach you what to use more than it does, but looks like it should teach you not to be a scrub who ignores, trolls, insults knowledgeable players who share info.

Gargath

Zyrudin wrote: »

I understand.
Though, despite all your sound reasoning, I personally would never refuse to throw a shard due to wasted resources. I may fail to do so if I am overcrowded and have to defend myself, but never out of spite.

Yes, I also can give shards if I am not overcrowded but usually the problem is when healer does his part well, but is surrounded by mobs and need to use rather puncturing sweeps for self defence, because DDs cannot kill mobs fast enough with their low dps and tank focuses on boss.
Sometimes as a healer I simply have no time to provide shards from secondary bar, I have to sustain both myself and poor DDs, who cannot stand a moment without healing. Then I think it's still better to elongate the fight by keeping all group alive, than to risk my (healer's) death, DD's after me and finally tank . Usually it works well, it's just sometimes hard to understand for the newbies.

Panomania

Though I played beta and have subbed for over a year I just recently started actually playing thanks to life issues, so I'm very new to ESO in many ways. However, I've been in MMO's a long time (mid 90's) and one of the things I learned early on is that you can always find new things to learn. Sadly this attitude isnt the norm in "mainstream modern" MMOs.

After 18 years playing the granddaddy of MMOs I STILL find people who can teach me stuff, even in that game.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Pibbles wrote: »

Soafee wrote: »

I'm so not looking forward to getting into grouping. I'm only level 10 (level 10, not 50+ cp or whatever level 10.) and if it's people like you that are going to lose your cool because of the way I'm playing it's going to suck the fun out of it for me so fast.

I also tend to agree with you about the OP in this thread. Initially I thought he had a point but after reading more and more of what he says, plus what the healer from the group in question had to say, I think the OP is the problem.

But please take it from me, it's incredibly rare to have any form of issue in a group. I have been playing since beta and I've seen it a handful of times. e.g. I've been heavily playing in random groups since the beginning of the Festival and all have been exemplary.

Please do not be put off by this thread and others like it. Keyboard warriors come to the forum to whine, but real warriors are too busy in game to whine!

Agreed. While everyone has their, this is the worst stories, they are usually few and far between. As a healer or a dps i generally run into very few problems in dungeons.

But i usually focus on getting the content done. Not if it is getting done fast enough. Or if the tank is doing it just right. Or if the dps is using a bow. Usually i just ask if i think this group can finish the dungeon. And almost always the answer is yes. Now i have had to drop quest and pick them up again because our group couldnt pull of hardmode but that is something else.

AClockworkLime

Dubhliam wrote: »

The communication was almost non existent from their part. I believe their english (lol why is your forum saying this word is misspelled)

Two main reasons.
1.) Because it's a proper noun and should be capitalized.
2.) It's not the forum software telling you this, it's your browser.

Doctordarkspawn

It also does not help that this game has virtually become a barren wasteland as far as endgame PVE goes.

The people who came for One Tam realized they'd either need to use a setup they didn't like or fail so they left.

The high level players didn't see any new blood or didn't like the lag, didn't like the new scaled dungeons, and left.

Who's left? No one. No one to do the endgame content. Exept for the dregs.

This lack of tutorial on how to make decent DPS combined with these buffed dungeons that -neither- crowd likes is helping the mentality of '*** it I'll do what's fun' (Which shouldn't be as unviable as it is) thrive. When the devs fix the scaling for the dungeons and bring them back down to pre patch levels or start giving people the tools to make better DPS we'll likely see this sort of thing evaporate. Until then.

I suggest you find a new game to play.

To visualize my point. Today I tried pugging WGT for the pledge.

We had one NB DPS who was prolly running meta, one Templar DPS running a twohander, and a templar healer. I was on my templar tank. We got through Abjucator no problem, we wiped a bunch on Planar inhib because DPS kept taking Pinion and leaving me, the tank, with portals. Then we got to Molag Kena. And things just went downhill.

The DPS would regularly not focus Atro, follow the lightning wall until death, and the healer had no idea what they were doing. No shards, no healing springs, just the occasional ritual cast and BOL spam. It wasn't gonna cut it, we died instantly almost every time when we got to the last phase.

Two out of four players, knew what they were doing. Only one of them was a support roll. This game will languish and die becauuse the game does not accuratelly teach how to built for your role and the difficulty has been upped to exaserbate this point, driving away the people who -can- teach. Something. Needs. To give.

Ghost-Shot

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Here is a short conversation right after the last boss, Unfortunately I didn't SS the whispers I got after leaving the group, which were the reason I blocked him.

That comes off as eliteist, insulting, and I'm not at all suprised you got told where to shove it.

If you take that as elitest, you have gone full carebear and are beyond saving. Go play a single player game where the "elitists" can't hurt your feelings.

Artis

Lol right, that's another example of everything that's wrong with this year. Political correctness, feelz. Omg, people can't adequately react to facts and whoever is just stating the obvious anymore.

KochDerDamonen

Way back, before any dlcs had released but after "Tamriel Unlimited" I started playing. Bounced around between wanting to play a Nightblade or Templar until the friend I started with chose Nightblade, so I went with the other. Played with him until about vet 2 where he went back to WoW, still before any dlcs had come into being.

I spent months researching for all crafts, learning to heal while doing jank off-tank and off-dps to cover for the varying levels of skill displayed by my random playmates. Mind I only ever got like 2 zones into cadwell's silver, I basically got to v16 and then to cp501 doing group dungeons and occasionally dipping back to quest in cadwell's or dlcs with very little pvp, mostly in the imperial sewers.

I also didn't have a job at the time. I had the capability to craft nigh any set, any food or provide insight on any role done by any class to enough of a degree to get anyone that would speak to me up to speed. That plus the free time to not care if I literally did one dungeon that day, I can't even imagine the number of dungeons I did in this time where I, or maybe with one other person, was the only remaining member of the original team by the end. Of course, those were the bad runs, I would always patiently work with anyone that would speak with me until we completed. I would teach these people to not fear using their resources, to fear the red alerts, the connection between resource pools/armor types/weapon types and various stats and how focusing towards one of these combinations helps them, why gear sets are good, food, etc etc.

I basically had to be a golden saint to get most of these runs to work, and I still had people that would not communicate, or would but to the detriment of the team. You just... can't win, sometimes. Other times the required patience is just too much to ask of a person with a job or family to care about.

My guild died a few months ago, and I started working. I no longer had the infinite patience and time. I haven't updated ESO in two patch cycles or so now

Dubhliam

Wow.

This thread finally took the turn into "OP is the problem, he's a whiney sissy that has a problem with every group."

I am Stormproof.
I don't need such groups, I can solo normal BC2 any day of the week.

And I certainly don't need to hear *** like this about me being the know it all common denominator.

See, posts like your really prove the scrub mentality is real and kicking.

Mush55

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Florial wrote: »

I agree that it is all about delivery and also timing. I'm a max CP player but up until recently, mainly soloed through the storyline. I'm still learning the ins and outs of dungeon running. There are many players who know each dungeon, each boss fight strategy like the back of their hand. I don't mind tips on the fights or even skill recommendations if needed. What I don't appreciate is "advice" like "learn the basics before coming to a dungeon." Even had a guildie a few weeks ago rage at our group for a bunch of instant death in one of the vet dungeons. Attempted to explain that red was bad in a condescending way. It was fairly disheartening.

OP, it was nice that you stuck around in the dungeon to help. I try to do the same even if I see that the group may be a challenge. I only drop if people start squabbling or do really dumb things like run ahead, agro the entire room then gripe when it is a wipe. The first "gogogo" or "heals fail" comment I hear, I'm usually out of there with an automatic drop group.

If a player doesn't understand the basics, like what his class/armor/weapon skills actually do and how they scale on his stats it's almost impossible to explain more complicated things like skill rotation and mechanics. For example taking the example of Banished Cells I, if the "healer" is a hybrid build in heavy armor, the heavy attacks from his staff may not be strong enough to break the balls until they reach the boss. Not to mention that his healing skills won't be able to fill the other player's health pools. I've seen a lot of fails like that. But in normal dungeon I slot vigor instead of talons and simply carry on. But there is only so much a properly geared, experienced player may compensate for:
- normal dungeons can be soloed, with one actual player and 3 spectators
- in vanilla game veteran dungeons and normal DLC ones a bad player, especially DD, can be carried
- in DLC veteran dungeons every failure and misunderstanding of the dungeon mechanics can lead to group wipe and inability to finish the dungeon.

1. When the hell does the game ever even give you a suggestion on how to build?

2. How are players able to build characters worth a damn if the game does not even bother to give them a sample build?

It's a larger problem, and it needs to be adressed, either now or in update 13. Until then it's no suprise when people fail, the game never gave them the tools to succeed in the first place. It never taught them mechanical synergies or what armor to wear. It never gave them so much as a 'you should probs not wear heavy armor'. Because the game has been so far warped from the design it was originally and nobody thought to give a buyers guide to the broken mess they created.

TLDR: When Zeni gives a sample build, then people get to *** about pugs not knowing wtf to do. (Not saying you did. Just making a point.)

Err a quick look at the various skills and passives. Eg light armour- magiick regen amongst others, Medium stamm regen, Heavy mitigation . It's all their you just have to look and read .

Dosn't take a brain surgeon to work out that if you heal or are a magic dps light is the way to go.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

Wow.

This thread finally took the turn into "OP is the problem, he's a whiney sissy that has a problem with every group."

I am Stormproof.
I don't need such groups, I can solo normal BC2 any day of the week.

And I certainly don't need to hear *** like this about me being the know it all common denominator.

See, posts like your really prove the scrub mentality is real and kicking.

I agree. Everyone who doesnt agree with me is a scrub.

Doctordarkspawn

Mush55 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Florial wrote: »

I agree that it is all about delivery and also timing. I'm a max CP player but up until recently, mainly soloed through the storyline. I'm still learning the ins and outs of dungeon running. There are many players who know each dungeon, each boss fight strategy like the back of their hand. I don't mind tips on the fights or even skill recommendations if needed. What I don't appreciate is "advice" like "learn the basics before coming to a dungeon." Even had a guildie a few weeks ago rage at our group for a bunch of instant death in one of the vet dungeons. Attempted to explain that red was bad in a condescending way. It was fairly disheartening.

OP, it was nice that you stuck around in the dungeon to help. I try to do the same even if I see that the group may be a challenge. I only drop if people start squabbling or do really dumb things like run ahead, agro the entire room then gripe when it is a wipe. The first "gogogo" or "heals fail" comment I hear, I'm usually out of there with an automatic drop group.

If a player doesn't understand the basics, like what his class/armor/weapon skills actually do and how they scale on his stats it's almost impossible to explain more complicated things like skill rotation and mechanics. For example taking the example of Banished Cells I, if the "healer" is a hybrid build in heavy armor, the heavy attacks from his staff may not be strong enough to break the balls until they reach the boss. Not to mention that his healing skills won't be able to fill the other player's health pools. I've seen a lot of fails like that. But in normal dungeon I slot vigor instead of talons and simply carry on. But there is only so much a properly geared, experienced player may compensate for:
- normal dungeons can be soloed, with one actual player and 3 spectators
- in vanilla game veteran dungeons and normal DLC ones a bad player, especially DD, can be carried
- in DLC veteran dungeons every failure and misunderstanding of the dungeon mechanics can lead to group wipe and inability to finish the dungeon.

1. When the hell does the game ever even give you a suggestion on how to build?

2. How are players able to build characters worth a damn if the game does not even bother to give them a sample build?

It's a larger problem, and it needs to be adressed, either now or in update 13. Until then it's no suprise when people fail, the game never gave them the tools to succeed in the first place. It never taught them mechanical synergies or what armor to wear. It never gave them so much as a 'you should probs not wear heavy armor'. Because the game has been so far warped from the design it was originally and nobody thought to give a buyers guide to the broken mess they created.

TLDR: When Zeni gives a sample build, then people get to *** about pugs not knowing wtf to do. (Not saying you did. Just making a point.)

Err a quick look at the various skills and passives. Eg light armour- magiick regen amongst others, Medium stamm regen, Heavy mitigation . It's all their you just have to look and read .

Dosn't take a brain surgeon to work out that if you heal or are a magic dps light is the way to go.

And yet things like bar setup, Buffs, rotation.

Plus the only time the game actually gives you any inclination on what to wear is the class select screen and it shows templar in heavy with a twohander, so there you go.

I guarentee if you had something like a sample deck from Secret world, this issue would be far less prevelent. Give people the pieces and they'll be able to put two and two together. But lets not pretend there arrent people who need to be guided by the hand.

Doctordarkspawn

Dubhliam wrote: »

Wow.

This thread finally took the turn into "OP is the problem, he's a whiney sissy that has a problem with every group."

I am Stormproof.
I don't need such groups, I can solo normal BC2 any day of the week.

And I certainly don't need to hear *** like this about me being the know it all common denominator.

See, posts like your really prove the scrub mentality is real and kicking.

I think the discussion of how to teach people how to do their role is one worth having and Zenimax themselves should take into their own hands.

But given all you've done is go "I am Stormproof, I dont need this, you disagreeign with me proves my point", I dont think you were ever going to foster that discussion.

So yes, I think your an eliteist prick. The issue is still worth talking about, but it might be better if the conversation didn't include you.

Mush55

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Mush55 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Florial wrote: »

I agree that it is all about delivery and also timing. I'm a max CP player but up until recently, mainly soloed through the storyline. I'm still learning the ins and outs of dungeon running. There are many players who know each dungeon, each boss fight strategy like the back of their hand. I don't mind tips on the fights or even skill recommendations if needed. What I don't appreciate is "advice" like "learn the basics before coming to a dungeon." Even had a guildie a few weeks ago rage at our group for a bunch of instant death in one of the vet dungeons. Attempted to explain that red was bad in a condescending way. It was fairly disheartening.

OP, it was nice that you stuck around in the dungeon to help. I try to do the same even if I see that the group may be a challenge. I only drop if people start squabbling or do really dumb things like run ahead, agro the entire room then gripe when it is a wipe. The first "gogogo" or "heals fail" comment I hear, I'm usually out of there with an automatic drop group.

If a player doesn't understand the basics, like what his class/armor/weapon skills actually do and how they scale on his stats it's almost impossible to explain more complicated things like skill rotation and mechanics. For example taking the example of Banished Cells I, if the "healer" is a hybrid build in heavy armor, the heavy attacks from his staff may not be strong enough to break the balls until they reach the boss. Not to mention that his healing skills won't be able to fill the other player's health pools. I've seen a lot of fails like that. But in normal dungeon I slot vigor instead of talons and simply carry on. But there is only so much a properly geared, experienced player may compensate for:
- normal dungeons can be soloed, with one actual player and 3 spectators
- in vanilla game veteran dungeons and normal DLC ones a bad player, especially DD, can be carried
- in DLC veteran dungeons every failure and misunderstanding of the dungeon mechanics can lead to group wipe and inability to finish the dungeon.

1. When the hell does the game ever even give you a suggestion on how to build?

2. How are players able to build characters worth a damn if the game does not even bother to give them a sample build?

It's a larger problem, and it needs to be adressed, either now or in update 13. Until then it's no suprise when people fail, the game never gave them the tools to succeed in the first place. It never taught them mechanical synergies or what armor to wear. It never gave them so much as a 'you should probs not wear heavy armor'. Because the game has been so far warped from the design it was originally and nobody thought to give a buyers guide to the broken mess they created.

TLDR: When Zeni gives a sample build, then people get to *** about pugs not knowing wtf to do. (Not saying you did. Just making a point.)

Err a quick look at the various skills and passives. Eg light armour- magiick regen amongst others, Medium stamm regen, Heavy mitigation . It's all their you just have to look and read .

Dosn't take a brain surgeon to work out that if you heal or are a magic dps light is the way to go.

And yet things like bar setup, Buffs, rotation.

Plus the only time the game actually gives you any inclination on what to wear is the class select screen and it shows templar in heavy with a twohander, so there you go.

I guarentee if you had something like a sample deck from Secret world, this issue would be far less prevelent.

I'll give you rotations, but come on if your a spell caster class surely it's common sense that you have to put points into magic and even maybe health wear what most mmo's use for magic classes ie, staff light armour and spells , not use a bow and stamina skills. Same if you choose a stam class just takes a little thinking and reading skill ect descriptions.

Blame alot on zos with play as you want.

Dubhliam

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Wow.

This thread finally took the turn into "OP is the problem, he's a whiney sissy that has a problem with every group."

I am Stormproof.
I don't need such groups, I can solo normal BC2 any day of the week.

And I certainly don't need to hear *** like this about me being the know it all common denominator.

See, posts like your really prove the scrub mentality is real and kicking.

I think the discussion of how to teach people how to do their role is one worth having and Zenimax themselves should take into their own hands.

But given all you've done is go "I am Stormproof, I dont need this, you disagreeign with me proves my point", I dont think you were ever going to foster that discussion.

So yes, I think your an eliteist prick. The issue is still worth talking about, but it might be better if the conversation didn't include you.

How am I supposed to react to players calling me a "keyboard warrior", or a "common denominator in bad groups"?

The issue here is real, and people are more likely to blame the one that pointed to it than to acknowledge that.

But hey, if you think the conversation might be better off without me, I just might as well go away so that you can all agree that I was the problem, so that you can continue to play Elder Faceroll Online in peace.

failkiwib16_ESO

o.O
I tend to break up groups like that. I do the dungeon by inviting one member to my friends list, then kicking him out of group and inviting a friend instead ....when the dungeon is done, I redo it with the kicked-out member so he/she also gets dungie done.

It saves so much time to do a dungeon twice, than try to carry 3 noobs through at the same time.

Artis

Dubhliam wrote: »

Wow.

This thread finally took the turn into "OP is the problem, he's a whiney sissy that has a problem with every group."

I am Stormproof.
I don't need such groups, I can solo normal BC2 any day of the week.

And I certainly don't need to hear *** like this about me being the know it all common denominator.

See, posts like your really prove the scrub mentality is real and kicking.

#skilledplayersmatter

There are still some of us who understand you and appreciate the content over the form/way of presenting it. It's what you say that matters, not how you say it. I'm sure all of us had similar experiences, in fact, now I have to go through it every day, since none of my guildmates want to run DLC pledges (maybe just with me), so I have to get people in /zone. It's really sad when they won't listen, but it's even worse when they try to make it seem when you are a problem, when it's clearly them.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

But given all you've done is go "I am Stormproof, I dont need this, you disagreeign with me proves my point", I dont think you were ever going to foster that discussion.

So yes, I think your an eliteist prick. The issue is still worth talking about, but it might be better if the conversation didn't include you.

And I for one think you're a moralist prick or whatever you call it. You should be thankful and appreciate an advice of a more experienced players, instead of whining that you don't like how he shares that advice. Not everyone comes from the same background, or the same age group, or even speaks English as the first language. So instead of focusing on stuff like how you feel about what he's saying, you need to focus on OBJECTIVE stuff as in what INFORMATION what he was saying contained.


It would indeed be nice if there was a way to separate two groups if we are annoying each other so much. But you don't want that , don't you? Cuz it'll be too much work when no one knows the fights + your excuse is that it's good to bring players together blahblah. Well then appreciate advises. I absolutely don't mind playing with new player or low cp players if they can follow instructions. Will pick such players over capped players who are being stubborn any day.

Lava_Croft

Junipus wrote: »

If i have to go with inexperienced or noob players I always try and give them a little TLC because I don't want no scrub

This reply deserves more recognition for being clever.

Doctordarkspawn

Artis wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Wow.

This thread finally took the turn into "OP is the problem, he's a whiney sissy that has a problem with every group."

I am Stormproof.
I don't need such groups, I can solo normal BC2 any day of the week.

And I certainly don't need to hear *** like this about me being the know it all common denominator.

See, posts like your really prove the scrub mentality is real and kicking.

#skilledplayersmatter

There are still some of us who understand you and appreciate the content over the form/way of presenting it. It's what you say that matters, not how you say it. I'm sure all of us had similar experiences, in fact, now I have to go through it every day, since none of my guildmates want to run DLC pledges (maybe just with me), so I have to get people in /zone. It's really sad when they won't listen, but it's even worse when they try to make it seem when you are a problem, when it's clearly them.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

But given all you've done is go "I am Stormproof, I dont need this, you disagreeign with me proves my point", I dont think you were ever going to foster that discussion.

So yes, I think your an eliteist prick. The issue is still worth talking about, but it might be better if the conversation didn't include you.

And I for one think you're a moralist prick or whatever you call it. You should be thankful and appreciate an advice of a more experienced players, instead of whining that you don't like how he shares that advice. Not everyone comes from the same background, or the same age group, or even speaks English as the first language. So instead of focusing on stuff like how you feel about what he's saying, you need to focus on OBJECTIVE stuff as in what INFORMATION what he was saying contained.


It would indeed be nice if there was a way to separate two groups if we are annoying each other so much. But you don't want that , don't you? Cuz it'll be too much work when no one knows the fights + your excuse is that it's good to bring players together blahblah. Well then appreciate advises. I absolutely don't mind playing with new player or low cp players if they can follow instructions. Will pick such players over capped players who are being stubborn any day.

I do appreciate the advise of more experienced players. But there's a limit on how much abuse I will take before I get loud and start swinging fists. Saying "Hey, can you run this/this/this instead of this" isn't abuse. Saying "Hey screwhead, your only pulling 4 K DPS. Let me correct your rotation so you dont bring us down" is abuse.

You can give valuable information and not be a *** about it. S'not that hard. And quite frankly I still think the conversation is better off without him.

Also. Moralist? Having morals and holding them to your heart is a crime now? I dont understand that and never will.

The sad thing is, I mostly agree with the OP. Just not his attitude, his method of communication, or his Ethics. And I dont agree with yours either.

...As for the second paragraph...what...is this even. I dont get it. Are you calling me a liar? A carebear? Your not exactly clear and I cant descipher it. It's like that book Sheo gives you, it gets harder to read the more I try.

Edit: Moralist is also used in the wrong context in this situation, but I dont know what you'd call someone a bigot against morality. AND BEFORE YOU TRY AND FIND ONE, THERE SHOULDN'T -BE- A WORD FOR THAT.

Doctordarkspawn

Mush55 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Mush55 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Florial wrote: »

I agree that it is all about delivery and also timing. I'm a max CP player but up until recently, mainly soloed through the storyline. I'm still learning the ins and outs of dungeon running. There are many players who know each dungeon, each boss fight strategy like the back of their hand. I don't mind tips on the fights or even skill recommendations if needed. What I don't appreciate is "advice" like "learn the basics before coming to a dungeon." Even had a guildie a few weeks ago rage at our group for a bunch of instant death in one of the vet dungeons. Attempted to explain that red was bad in a condescending way. It was fairly disheartening.

OP, it was nice that you stuck around in the dungeon to help. I try to do the same even if I see that the group may be a challenge. I only drop if people start squabbling or do really dumb things like run ahead, agro the entire room then gripe when it is a wipe. The first "gogogo" or "heals fail" comment I hear, I'm usually out of there with an automatic drop group.

If a player doesn't understand the basics, like what his class/armor/weapon skills actually do and how they scale on his stats it's almost impossible to explain more complicated things like skill rotation and mechanics. For example taking the example of Banished Cells I, if the "healer" is a hybrid build in heavy armor, the heavy attacks from his staff may not be strong enough to break the balls until they reach the boss. Not to mention that his healing skills won't be able to fill the other player's health pools. I've seen a lot of fails like that. But in normal dungeon I slot vigor instead of talons and simply carry on. But there is only so much a properly geared, experienced player may compensate for:
- normal dungeons can be soloed, with one actual player and 3 spectators
- in vanilla game veteran dungeons and normal DLC ones a bad player, especially DD, can be carried
- in DLC veteran dungeons every failure and misunderstanding of the dungeon mechanics can lead to group wipe and inability to finish the dungeon.

1. When the hell does the game ever even give you a suggestion on how to build?

2. How are players able to build characters worth a damn if the game does not even bother to give them a sample build?

It's a larger problem, and it needs to be adressed, either now or in update 13. Until then it's no suprise when people fail, the game never gave them the tools to succeed in the first place. It never taught them mechanical synergies or what armor to wear. It never gave them so much as a 'you should probs not wear heavy armor'. Because the game has been so far warped from the design it was originally and nobody thought to give a buyers guide to the broken mess they created.

TLDR: When Zeni gives a sample build, then people get to *** about pugs not knowing wtf to do. (Not saying you did. Just making a point.)

Err a quick look at the various skills and passives. Eg light armour- magiick regen amongst others, Medium stamm regen, Heavy mitigation . It's all their you just have to look and read .

Dosn't take a brain surgeon to work out that if you heal or are a magic dps light is the way to go.

And yet things like bar setup, Buffs, rotation.

Plus the only time the game actually gives you any inclination on what to wear is the class select screen and it shows templar in heavy with a twohander, so there you go.

I guarentee if you had something like a sample deck from Secret world, this issue would be far less prevelent.

I'll give you rotations, but come on if your a spell caster class surely it's common sense that you have to put points into magic and even maybe health wear what most mmo's use for magic classes ie, staff light armour and spells , not use a bow and stamina skills. Same if you choose a stam class just takes a little thinking and reading skill ect descriptions.

Blame alot on zos with play as you want.

This is true. And I can give you the armor bit, but the thing is, theres also weapon specs that downright dont work in PVE. Like bow, like Twohanded, there's all these wrong choices that you would never know because the game never tells you. S'weird.

Hybrids are also a thing that used to be viable and now isn't and they never explain that either. It's. Weird.

FortheloveofKrist

Dubhliam wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Wow.

This thread finally took the turn into "OP is the problem, he's a whiney sissy that has a problem with every group."

I am Stormproof.
I don't need such groups, I can solo normal BC2 any day of the week.

And I certainly don't need to hear *** like this about me being the know it all common denominator.

See, posts like your really prove the scrub mentality is real and kicking.

I think the discussion of how to teach people how to do their role is one worth having and Zenimax themselves should take into their own hands.

But given all you've done is go "I am Stormproof, I dont need this, you disagreeign with me proves my point", I dont think you were ever going to foster that discussion.

So yes, I think your an eliteist prick. The issue is still worth talking about, but it might be better if the conversation didn't include you.

How am I supposed to react to players calling me a "keyboard warrior", or a "common denominator in bad groups"?

The issue here is real, and people are more likely to blame the one that pointed to it than to acknowledge that.

But hey, if you think the conversation might be better off without me, I just might as well go away so that you can all agree that I was the problem, so that you can continue to play Elder Faceroll Online in peace.

Yes, the "issue" here is real. That issue is players like you.

But I'm glad to see you found the solution to your own problem.

ForsakenSin

well last night something funny happen

i got random players all maxed out and really cool guys we were farming vet darkshade the healer was amazing i didn't even had to ask for shards he was on point every single time my stam was never depleted it felt like we were all sync as one.

Anyway on the last boss i was just standing in red all the time and dps after we finished the healer goes " wow i had to empty my whole magica pool to keep you alive " which i had to reply " ohh sorry man i forgot to tell you im a stam sorc don't need healing sorry about that in future please don't worry about me " hehe

i felt bad cos he must have thought i was a noob standing in red all the time lol but i learned now to tell healers in future to not worry about me .

however the only problem is the LAG ohhh the lag is unbelievable now everything is sooo delayed with weapon changing abilities dont work all the time its just bad and this is in dungeons!!! ... you can imagine what is it like in city's with all players fighting and spanning i could not even decon my items it didn't work !

Doctordarkspawn

My points and issues can be summed up in a few sentances.

One. If your going to offer advise, dont insult people. If you cant do that, your better off leaving. It dosent matter how right you are. It dosent matter how angry it makes you. Be polite or your words will never be heard. And they need to be heard. So say them in a way that will make them be heard.

Two. Zenimax needs to release sample builds you can view in the help section or somewhere similar. It'd include gear, skills, and where to get these skills and gear. That is it. It would be a major step toward teaching new DPS how to DPS, and new support rolls how to do their jobs.