Scrub mentality in group dungeons

Skinless_Jerk

Buffler wrote: »

N0TPLAYER2 wrote: »

I just want to say, giving helpful advice is fine. Immediately asking what skills and weapons someone uses puts them on the defensive. I am healer, I can easily heal all content, possibly aside from a few vet trials, and when someone asks me before the dungeon even starts what I'm using I get offended as it's a way to judge if I am good enough. I'm more than good enough. I don't need someone interrogating me.

Yes I realize this isn't exactly that happened but still, immediately trying to say, no you're doing it wrong, play the game how I want you to, will *** most people off. Just a simple fact

I ask what healers are using everytime I pug. Not interrogating just need to know so I can adjust my gear accordingly. If healer runs repentance or shards I go full dps.....if not i swap for a bit of sustain

thats remarkably OTT for normal dungeons

Peekachu99

Anything over 300 CP is usually fine. Cleared all the supposedly waaaaah-hard pledges today with a random group finder crew (275-400--I'm at cap) including vet RoM, and had no wipes. As long as the tank (me, always) and healer are competent and can push out extra dps if needed, there shouldn't be an issue. In our second run, I soloed Skoria at the end with (healing) Jesus beam.

It's only "hard" if you aren't willing to accommodate for changes in composition or your group setup and setting up groups, even in guild or via friends lists takes time that people don't always have.

MoeCoastie

Playing a healer, I feel healing a low level group is fun and challenging. I have no issues playing with lower levels or even less knowledgeable players. Keeps me on my toes because it makes a normally boring and faceroll normal dungeon into a dynamic experience.

I must admit, I did trash a lowbie once. That's only after he rudely YOLO'd into trash mobs while I was still doing inventory management. He rudely said "thanks for the no-heals." So i used some explicit language and sarcastically encouraged him to keep spamming 2h wrecking blow. If it were up to me, I would have withheld all heals from him and gladly 3manned the rest of the dungeon. curse smart-heals!

Dubhliam

Siphoneer wrote: »

Pibbles wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Here is a short conversation right after the last boss, Unfortunately I didn't SS the whispers I got after leaving the group, which were the reason I blocked him.

haha!

I want to see the whispers now!!

I must say, last weekend I levelled my alt healer all weekend in random normals. And every single PUG I joined was excellent. Polite, mostly skilled, knew their class, no idiocy with the red stuff, at least willing to learn and try when we got it wrong. Really decent players and there honestly was not a bad person amongst them over 3 days of intensive random dungeoneering. So it's not all bad, the Arx failures were a tiny minority in comparison to the overall experience last weekend.

I would be mad too, you were really rude

You don't have the big picture here.
This chat happened AFTER I gave them advice, told them the tactics for the last boss and carried them through the dungeon.

You can clearly see one of them in the chat was actually grateful, while the other guy was juat being a prick.

Think what you like.
It's people like you and @Doctordarkspawn that prove it would have been a smarter choice to simply leave the group as soon as I got in.

Dubhliam

Mojmir wrote: »

for the umpteenth time,join a guild. Using group finder is like starting a new job everyday.

I am in a guild. I almost never run PUGs anymore.
As I said in the OP, the reason I went into a random normal was to test and confirm a rumor about Monster helms.

BlackEar

Stories like this is why I am glad at am a DD, so I don't have to be concerned if we will make it with 1-3 new players

Flameheart

Stopnaggin wrote: »

All I see now is "must be cp531", it seems harder content may be going elitist. Not many people want to take their time and teach anything, they want to finish as fast as possible get the reward and move to the next. Not everyone mind you but it's showing up more and more in chat.

It's not harder content. Imho the "old" vet dungeons stayed at the same lvl of difficulty, while the former "silver" dungeon bosses now got some more life, so you have to play some long forgotten mechanics. Good DDs will still be able to evade certain mechanics by just burning down bosses. It's still possible to burn down the first boss in Vaults of Madness (the wraith, also known as the "No-Death-Run-Killer") before he does his "blue band" to transfer all inc damage to a random player for example. At least good DDs are able to minimize mechanics to a certain point.

In addition Zenimax nerfed some boss special abilities. Some former "silver" bosses were able to oneshot DDs by some special attacks if they were caught without blocking or caught at all and not dodge rolling, or if special attacks won't be interrupted. Now some of them hit like girls or at least a lot less hard, or will do special attacks in a lower frequency.

Although Zenimax integrated some suprises (Selene oneshotting tanks with their bear shape ability), but after a few deaths you should be able to adapt.

The only reason why people maybe want high CP scores is, that the chance to get experienced players should be higher if you select players with many CPs, although it's just a chance, a CP 600+ Player might have made his CPs by just grinding in grind spots or in PvP and still likes to dps the Netch adds in FG1 while wearing a twohanded weapon and heavy armor...

My personal experience is that - usually (not always) - as higher the CP count as smoother an instance will succeed in a random group.

Asardes

Dubhliam wrote: »

I did notice more skill usage on the next boss, but the fight was still mostly resto heavy attacks (from both sorc and temp) and bow light attacks from the low level with an occasional Poison Arrow.

Elegance set now drops for low levels too

Dubhliam

Asardes wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I did notice more skill usage on the next boss, but the fight was still mostly resto heavy attacks (from both sorc and temp) and bow light attacks from the low level with an occasional Poison Arrow.

Elegance set now drops for low levels too

Kinda hard to believe they had any set completed since they couldn't break more than 4k DPS combined.
Also, in the Keeper Imiril fight, the Winged Twilights would chase down the NB (the other adds I can root, but not the flying ones) before I taunt them all.
Meaning he did the most damage with simple bow light attacks.
I seriously doubt he had a complete Elegance set.

...or DID he?

SlayerTheDragon

I know this is asking A LOT but, I would really like to see ZOS add an incentive to bring the Vet guys into random normal dungeons. It will really help because currently the normals are a mess.

- Forget the undaunted quest givers.
- Drop keys from random dungeons.

Dubhliam

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

I know this is asking A LOT but, I would really like to see ZOS add an incentive to bring the Vet guys into random normal dungeons. It will really help because currently the normals are a mess.

- Forget the undaunted quest givers.
- Drop keys from random dungeons.

This is actually a great idea.

Instead of separating experienced players from inexperienced, we need to mix them more.

However, for this idea to be fruitful, there should be some restriction.
For example, people can currently form a group of 4 players and then simply apply for a random normal.
ZOS should only reward those that apply without pre-made groups.
Otherwise this incentive will only be wasted.

Ozstryker

This thread is awesome, But.. Lets clarify a few things here!
I entered the dungeon at the third to last boss (that's right, I am Bill. The scrub healer). Went ok, dd's took some spike dmg, hence the BoL heals, but generally no probs... In fact I rember thinking "at least the tank is doing ok"
Now to clarify, you stopped the group and literally berated the dd's (show that screen shot). I could tell they were uncomfortable with the tone, u asked for their classes, weapons and skills and proceded to tell them how wrong they are.. These were low lvls, obviously didnt have the skills you were telling them to use. And clearly struggling with their resources (hence the light and heavy attacks). You say 4 mins, you carried on for at least 10... So I suggested that we move on... So u rounded on me, I won't go into details, but lets say, you were happy to take the shards, benefited from combat prayer, entropy, repentance etc. all the skills you conveniently didnt see!
Eventually we moved on, next boss was same as first, no real issues, then the last boss....... Your 15 minit tutorial... Sigh, telling us we were to *** to do this boss! We did it first go, no deaths, no problems!!

After which I promptly said "thx folks" continued a little with your amusing banter, as you showed a tiny section to all here.. then YOU whispered me, (again show these screen shots) childish banter I know but you were being a massive ***

Let me defend myself, I only do dungeons on this char, heavy resto attacks are for magica regen, I dualed resto in this dungeon to compensate heavy dmg being taken, and i literally only replied to you in kind, I defy you to show more screen shots of the chat... !! But i do say to you again... We were not lucky to have you, and if you wanted to quit... You should've

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

Instead of separating experienced players from inexperienced, we need to mix them more.

Nope, not at all. Would you have fun running a 4x100m with Usain Bolt ? Nope. You'd feel miserable and he'd be gimped, wasted and bored.
At any level, people can only have fun if they team up or compete against people of more or less the same level. It's also the only way "advice" can be fruitful. There's no tip or advice I could take from Usain Bolt that could help me improve my morning jogging "technique".

Asardes

code65536 wrote: »

I see groups like this all too often, unfortunately. And it's gotten worse now that the Group Finder is easier to use and more rewarding. This is the reason why all my tanks are gear-swap tanks--if I am in a group where the DPS is too low, I'll just swap to my DPS gear and leave them tankless (which is just fine for normal dungeons) or go DPS with a sword-and-board and taunt on my off-bar. I usually go with the former and pretend that I'm soloing the dungeon with the help of some cannon fodder to take some of the incoming damage off of me.

Whatever I do, I have one rule: Never Group Finder PUG a dungeon unless I'm prepared for the possibility that I'll have to shore up the DPS, even if I'm the tank or healer.

I used to do exactly the same before One Tamriel for the silver key and for easier gold key dungeons. Tanked in my DD gear with a few skills and 1H+S on front bar and full 2H DD back bar. But I don't do it anymore since grouping in my guilds or even in capital city zone chat yields much better groups that can get me 2 keys instead of just one, and purple set gear plus monster head instead on just blue gear and no monster head. Simply put, it's not worth wasting my time doing normal modes.

Dubhliam

Ozstryker wrote: »

This thread is awesome, But.. Lets clarify a few things here!
I entered the dungeon at the third to last boss (that's right, I am Bill. The scrub healer). Went ok, dd's took some spike dmg, hence the BoL heals, but generally no probs... In fact I rember thinking "at least the tank is doing ok"
Now to clarify, you stopped the group and literally berated the dd's (show that screen shot). I could tell they were uncomfortable with the tone, u asked for their classes, weapons and skills and proceded to tell them how wrong they are.. These were low lvls, obviously didnt have the skills you were telling them to use. And clearly struggling with their resources (hence the light and heavy attacks). You say 4 mins, you carried on for at least 10... So I suggested that we move on... So u rounded on me, I won't go into details, but lets say, you were happy to take the shards, benefited from combat prayer, entropy, repentance etc. all the skills you conveniently didnt see!
Eventually we moved on, next boss was same as first, no real issues, then the last boss....... Your 15 minit tutorial... Sigh, telling us we were to *** to do this boss! We did it first go, no deaths, no problems!!

After which I promptly said "thx folks" continued a little with your amusing banter, as you showed a tiny section to all here.. then YOU whispered me, (again show these screen shots) childish banter I know but you were being a massive ***

Let me defend myself, I only do dungeons on this char, heavy resto attacks are for magica regen, I dualed resto in this dungeon to compensate heavy dmg being taken, and i literally only replied to you in kind, I defy you to show more screen shots of the chat... !! But i do say to you again... We were not lucky to have you, and if you wanted to quit... You should've

You only replied to me in kind?
LOL, how I wish I had recorded this whole thing now.
How can you tell what their reaction was when they said almost nothing?

But I didn't, unfortunately.
I'm betting you would not be so brave to show your face here if I had video and SS of the whispers.

And no, the last boss mechanics was not 15 minutes.
You just said "don't stand in red".
I pointed out they should kill the healing orbs before they come to the boss, and that they should cleanse the red and blue bubbles.
I even went to the cleanse locations to show them where they are.
It was a quick tutorial.

Now... tell me again how I benefit from your Entropy?
And how exactly do you need to heavy attack between every skill?
Are you wearing Heavy armor?

Don't come lecturing me about being polite here, I never insulted anyone unlike you.
If telling someone he doesn't have enough DPS is insulting, then so be it.
Get insulted.
I was trying to help.
Some players were grateful in the end.
Others were just being a prick.

bigredsnake

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And people will still argue for difficult dungeons in the face of group like this.

It's like trying to give someone prime rib when what they want is a Big Mac. You can show them how tastey it is but they still want big mac.

Not saying it's right. Just saying, this is how the world of pubbies are.

Yeah because some of us liked the role playing aspect of these games. But you MMO heads want the same thing in every MMO you ever play. You don't care about the lore, the storyline, you just wanna grind for gear, kiss up to a guild, and make a build that is the exact same as everyone else's in that role's build. I don't even know why these games offer lots of choices since you guys all want your healer, tank, dpses, mana healers (thank God ESO didn't do that snoozer), etc to all be the exact same thing for their power set.

It gets old if you're actually trying to attract anyone other than you guys. Frankly they should ignore you guys, you're mostly addicts anyways, you'll play regardless until enough of your friends move on the next MMO fix. You won't leave and most of you can't anyways barring something really radical.

Also most gamers can't stand MMO heads and we're just here because we liked Skyrim. Also we blame all of you for the tone down in violence. I know it gets in the way of all those stupid numbers you have to have. You probably play in 3rd person with the camera zoomed out because there's nothing more Elder Scrolls than that.

anitajoneb17_ESO

@Ozstryker : nice post ! There's always two sides to any story, and whether a dungeon run is going "well" or "awful" is also very subjective. One more reason to avoid giving advice without being asked for it.

Skinless_Jerk

bigredsnake wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And people will still argue for difficult dungeons in the face of group like this.

It's like trying to give someone prime rib when what they want is a Big Mac. You can show them how tastey it is but they still want big mac.

Not saying it's right. Just saying, this is how the world of pubbies are.

Yeah because some of us liked the role playing aspect of these games. But you MMO heads want the same thing in every MMO you ever play. You don't care about the lore, the storyline, you just wanna grind for gear, kiss up to a guild, and make a build that is the exact same as everyone else's in that role's build. I don't even know why these games offer lots of choices since you guys all want your healer, tank, dpses, mana healers (thank God ESO didn't do that snoozer), etc to all be the exact same thing for their power set.

It gets old if you're actually trying to attract anyone other than you guys. Frankly they should ignore you guys, you're mostly addicts anyways, you'll play regardless until enough of your friends move on the next MMO fix. You won't leave and most of you can't anyways barring something really radical.

Also most gamers can't stand MMO heads and we're just here because we liked Skyrim. Also we blame all of you for the tone down in violence. I know it gets in the way of all those stupid numbers you have to have. You probably play in 3rd person with the camera zoomed out because there's nothing more Elder Scrolls than that.

hahahahahaha awesome! you ever heard that song from sesame street ... 'one of these things is not like the other.....'? hahaha

hrothbern

There are a lot of vids on youtube with fantastic performance with high CP golden endgame builds, played by experienced players.
Blasting their way through and most of the time boss mechanics is hardly relevant.
Those vids are perfect for sharing with other endgame players.

But of very little use on the short term for new players !
Guilds, learning & sharing during a raid, do help, but under the pressure of time.

These newbies need tutorials, guides, including boss mechanics, etc
for low CP, simple gear, simple rotations, simple roles and perhaps a few group buffs.

Dubhliam

@Ozstryker
One more thing.
I never mentioned a particular skill they should use.
I simply said "use skills".
When the NB said he was using X,Y and Z skills, I said "use X".

These new players might have actually wanted to learn a thing or two about the game, but that wasn't possible since you started being rude and insulting, trying to hurry up the dungeon.
I believe if we had one more lowbie instead of you in the group, they might have learned a thing or two.

daedalusAI

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Ozstryker : nice post ! There's always two sides to any story, and whether a dungeon run is going "well" or "awful" is also very subjective. One more reason to avoid giving advice without being asked for it.

Can I quote you in every random dungeon I run as low-level healer if I come across people who stand 24/7 in red, pull half the dungeon or just light/heavy attacking: "One more reason to avoid healing them without being asked for".

Sadly it's hard to not heal such particular entities due to aoe heals or smart heals.

Kas

alternative solution:
slot some damage skills, move chat to a tab without grpchat, solo the dungeon, take time to teabag dead scrubs during bossfights.
if a normal dungeon takes 30min, there's nobody involved who should lecture others

Dyride

Good on you. I've tried to help but people also have to be willing to listen.

I would have been dropping Banners instead of Horns in your case.

anitajoneb17_ESO

daedalusAI wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Ozstryker : nice post ! There's always two sides to any story, and whether a dungeon run is going "well" or "awful" is also very subjective. One more reason to avoid giving advice without being asked for it.

Can I quote you in every random dungeon I run as low-level healer if I come across people who stand 24/7 in red, pull half the dungeon or just light/heavy attacking: "One more reason to avoid healing them without being asked for".

Sadly it's hard to not heal such particular entities due to aoe heals or smart heals.

My position is about giving advice.
You can meme my phasing however you want but it's your responsibility. I don't think it makes sense. Either you heal people and you can complete the dungeon in spite of pending L2P issues in other players (where's the problem then ?), or you heal people and you still cannot complete the dungeon (in which case you can try to give advice or leave), or you don't heal them at all and you cannot complete the dungeon and you leave (at least you know it's your own fault).

It looks like judging and lecturing others is more important to some players than completing the actual content.

daedalusAI

Dyride wrote: »

Good on you. I've tried to help but people also have to be willing to listen.

I would have been dropping Banners instead of Horns in your case.

You almost ask the impossible from your random dungeon player.

Dubhliam

Dyride wrote: »

Good on you. I've tried to help but people also have to be willing to listen.

I would have been dropping Banners instead of Horns in your case.

I could have done that.
I could have soloed the dungeon.

They would not know I was doing 95% of the damage.
And they wouldn't have learned anything.



The only problem here is that @Ozstryker simply wanted the fish.
It takes patience to learn something, a trait not everybody has.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

I could have soloed the dungeon.
They would not know I was doing 95% of the damage.
And they wouldn't have learned anything.

WOW. Didn't think you'd prove me right that quickly.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

It looks like judging and lecturing others is more important to some players than completing the actual content.

Junipus

bigredsnake wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And people will still argue for difficult dungeons in the face of group like this.

It's like trying to give someone prime rib when what they want is a Big Mac. You can show them how tastey it is but they still want big mac.

Not saying it's right. Just saying, this is how the world of pubbies are.

Yeah because some of us liked the role playing aspect of these games. But you MMO heads want the same thing in every MMO you ever play. You don't care about the lore, the storyline, you just wanna grind for gear, kiss up to a guild, and make a build that is the exact same as everyone else's in that role's build. I don't even know why these games offer lots of choices since you guys all want your healer, tank, dpses, mana healers (thank God ESO didn't do that snoozer), etc to all be the exact same thing for their power set.

It gets old if you're actually trying to attract anyone other than you guys. Frankly they should ignore you guys, you're mostly addicts anyways, you'll play regardless until enough of your friends move on the next MMO fix. You won't leave and most of you can't anyways barring something really radical.

Also most gamers can't stand MMO heads and we're just here because we liked Skyrim. Also we blame all of you for the tone down in violence. I know it gets in the way of all those stupid numbers you have to have. You probably play in 3rd person with the camera zoomed out because there's nothing more Elder Scrolls than that.

Fine if you want to roleplay exploring a dungeon and saving that little corner of Tamriel, but stick with other roleplayers so you can properly benefit from the experience instead of getting snippy with those who don't roleplay and just want to get through it for the head and/or keys.

Ozstryker

Calm down fella...

As a support class, every member benefits from my gaining 20% SP, also as I was dual resto, are you suggesting that I should stand idle when no heals and buffs are needed?
Look anyone can misrepresent a situation to make theirselves seem the Good Samaritan, but... The language and tone u use in this post goes along way to prove how your behaviour was in said dungeon...

Dubhliam

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I could have soloed the dungeon.
They would not know I was doing 95% of the damage.
And they wouldn't have learned anything.

WOW. Didn't think you'd prove me right that quickly.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

It looks like judging and lecturing others is more important to some players than completing the actual content.

Yes.
You're right.

Have a cookie.

There were three options I could have done.

1. carry them as DPS
2. try to teach them to DPS
3. leave

Shame on me for picking 2.
Truly.
Shame on me.

No wonder we have so many unskilled players when nobody wants to mentor, and even those that do get shunned for doing so.