Scrub mentality in group dungeons

The Uninvited

Osteos wrote: »

I too have noticed a lot of people just light attacking everything. Especially with the bow. Go do a crowded dolmen and that's all you hear.

Well, with all the dolmen farming the last few days often a light attack is all you can get in to hit at least something.

Dymence

To the OP: you should be less proactive and more reactive.

If I join a group to dungeon, I assume the goal is simply to finish the dungeon and nothing beyond that.

If the people in the group are bad, so be it. I'll simply carry them through by doing every role at once. I don't give them advice unless they explicitly ask for it.

In my opinion, learning by doing is the most valuable way of learning. It allows for people to see and experience things for themselves and make their own judgements. Telling people what to do takes this away. Getting better takes time. If people want to get better, they'll seek out their own way of doing it. If that way involves asking people for advice, so be it. I'll happily oblige.

You should, however, never proactively give someone advice if he never even asked for it in the first place.

Dubhliam

Dymence wrote: »

To the OP: you should be less proactive and more reactive.

If I join a group to dungeon, I assume the goal is simply to finish the dungeon and nothing beyond that.

If the people in the group are bad, so be it. I'll simply carry them through by doing every role at once. I don't give them advice unless they explicitly ask for it.

In my opinion, learning by doing is the most valuable way of learning. It allows for people to see and experience things for themselves and make their own judgements. Telling people what to do takes this away. Getting better takes time. If people want to get better, they'll seek out their own way of doing it. If that way involves asking people for advice, so be it. I'll happily oblige.

You should, however, never proactively give someone advice if he never even asked for it in the first place.

I get where you come from.

But the problem is...
People who need help the most usually won't ask for it.
The game outside the group dungeons is faceroll easy, and as long as they don't struggle while playing solo, they won't think they really need to improve.

Those people that DO ask for help will most likely be ready and prepared before entering a group dungeon.

We are talking about normal dungeons.
I'm not talking about specific boss tactics.
This is about basic understanding of the game and group roles.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

But the problem is...
People who need help the most usually won't ask for it.

I agree it's a problem, but it's not YOUR problem, is it ?

Dubhliam

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

But the problem is...
People who need help the most usually won't ask for it.

I agree it's a problem, but it's not YOUR problem, is it ?

You got me there.

As I said, I'll try to confine myself to helping guildies only in the future.

Dymence

Dubhliam wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

To the OP: you should be less proactive and more reactive.

If I join a group to dungeon, I assume the goal is simply to finish the dungeon and nothing beyond that.

If the people in the group are bad, so be it. I'll simply carry them through by doing every role at once. I don't give them advice unless they explicitly ask for it.

In my opinion, learning by doing is the most valuable way of learning. It allows for people to see and experience things for themselves and make their own judgements. Telling people what to do takes this away. Getting better takes time. If people want to get better, they'll seek out their own way of doing it. If that way involves asking people for advice, so be it. I'll happily oblige.

You should, however, never proactively give someone advice if he never even asked for it in the first place.

I get where you come from.

But the problem is...
People who need help the most usually won't ask for it.
The game outside the group dungeons is faceroll easy, and as long as they don't struggle while playing solo, they won't think they really need to improve.

While you're right about this, in this particular scenario we're talking about a normal dungeon with 2 dd's that aren't even level 50 yet. They probably don't have any max chars either so it's safe to assume they're at 0 cp. They're still in the stage of exploring the game and all that it has to offer. Getting the most out of their build probably isn't on their mind at all in this stage, and arguably it shouldn't be.

The way I see it, for new players, they should just get the most out of the leveling experience, story and progression this game has to offer. When everything is said and done and they're at around 160cp, then they'll probably start looking around and think to themselves: "What now?". Some people might quit or take a break at that point. Others will flock into PVP, PVE or both. This is also the stage where I think people will really start (or should start) putting some thought into what they're doing and what it is they want to achieve.

TL;DR: The people that need the advice are probably the people that aren't ready for it yet in state of mind.

Leon119

thats why when you PUG you get to the point where you can solo the dungeon, AKA sorc with surge and wards XD

Sausage

Zen can blame themselves for a group-finder what opens an opportunity for griefing. Ive given my own suggestions.

Tabbycat

I learned a long time ago that even if a player is really really bad at playing they absolutely hate it if you try to tell them how to play.

The only time you can teach someone is if they are willing to learn.

A frustrating experience for the OP, I'm sure, but not unexpected.

Digiman

Meh Puging will always get you a bad group sometimes. The more you do it the more you can count them.

But that doesn't mean there aren't good groups either. Bad one I can remember was a tank that had no clue how to do CoA veteren last boss and we had l language barrier.

Came to realize that the dungeon just wasn't PuG friendly and would avoid it even if it was a daily. Took a chance and got a great group later on in the weeks ahead and cleared it.

Point is some Veteren content just isn't balance right for groups of a large variety of players.

So @Dubhliam got a bad group, boo hoo. Grow up, chances are the rest of your pugs will be more functional you cry baby.

Lava_Croft

I just tanked a daily together with 3 snipers that had a combined health of less than 45k.

Wrobel has some work ahead of him.

raglau

Dubhliam wrote: »

But the problem is...
People who need help the most usually won't ask for it.
The game outside the group dungeons is faceroll easy, and as long as they don't struggle while playing solo, they won't think they really need to improve.

In many ways they may not *need* to improve. I'd say the dungeons are also faceroll easy, they are hardly mechanically challenging and ZOS' idea of tough seems to be 'let's give the mobs more HP', so it's just a slogging match most of the time.

So lots of people can actually complete group content with entirely unoptimised builds. We may think that they need tips or whatever, but if they are meeting basic requirements, does it really matter? I know in your initial example, you say there were deeper seated issues than that - if we take your statements at face value - but it's very rare IME to come across deliberately useless and hostile groups, and I've been playing since beta. Maybe I am just lucky!

Given the language barriers (which can cause huge misunderstanding) on multi-country mega-shards, plus vast difference in player ability, style, permutations of viable build (only a few are the best but very many are viable) I am now inclined to think we should not be overly intrusive unless there is a genuine issue that's risking non-completion of the content.

I've changed my view a bit since reading everything all the great contributors to this thread have said: Someone else summed it up; it's not our problem, unless it becomes our problem as the leader because the team may genuinely fail, but given how faceroll most ESO dungeons are, that's so rarely the case.

VaxtinTheWolf

About a week ago, I was doing a vetern pledge for Blessed Crucible. Medium story short, I probably houldn't have stuck it out in that group like I did. Myself as a Stamina NB DPS I had to repeatedly tell the tank to taunt, which he did only when he "felt like it?" And when I said tanks should at least use their taunt if nothing else, his response was "why? lol"

I wasn't the only one a little annoyed since the healer made a comment about it once, but a few wipes, and a slow DPS through dots since I had to be defensive most of the time the boss eventually was defeated.

Vekoeros

Dubhliam wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

But the problem is...
People who need help the most usually won't ask for it.

I agree it's a problem, but it's not YOUR problem, is it ?

You got me there.

As I said, I'll try to confine myself to helping guildies only in the future.

"Those who do not know they are walking in darkness will never seek the light."

Sometimes you have to try and help those who aren't asking for help even if they don't want it because its the right thing to do but if they don't take your advice just leave it be and let them be sub-par its their choice.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Vekoeros wrote: »

"Those who do not know they are walking in darkness will never seek the light."

Sometimes you have to try and help those who aren't asking for help even if they don't want it because its the right thing to do but if they don't take your advice just leave it be and let them be sub-par its their choice.

Whether it's the right thing to do for important things in life is debatable - and that debate could be endless.
But in a video game, it's definitely not the right thing to do. Leave people be. Offer help, don't force it.

Enslaved

If someone offers help to new ppl, it is good way to go. If they refuse it, it is their right to be like that. But anyone who want to play any aspect of ESO that is not solo, should really not be so defensive when someone offer an advice. I mean, being a complete jerk because someone wanted to provide free advice? Gl MMORPGing, mate.

Zyrudin

Enslaved wrote: »

If someone offers help to new ppl, it is good way to go. If they refuse it, it is their right to be like that. But anyone who want to play any aspect of ESO that is not solo, should really not be so defensive when someone offer an advice. I mean, being a complete jerk because someone wanted to provide free advice? Gl MMORPGing, mate.

Hey Enslaved,

Yeah, people being defensive happens sometimes, but it's also a matter of approach.

I think there is a huge difference between offering help ("hey, if you need any help just let me know, ok?") and imposing it ("hey, don't use that skill/armor, it's crap. Use this one instead or I'll bug out").

Note that I am exaggerating just to get my point across, but it's a lot about the different tonality in those two examples.
Offer help, but don't expect it to be accepted. Those who want it will ask back. Help them first, show that you are there to be a teamworker and that you won't kick them and most of the times people will come to you and talk.

FortheloveofKrist

scrub
noun: scrub; modifier noun: scrub

1. informal: an insignificant or contemptible person
2. a person who still uses the word scrub in 2016

xX_NachtJager_xx

I had this yesterday, except gone dps was very good (almost killed the ash titan by himself), and the other one was not that good. Plus he kept dying. It even got to the point on the ash titan where I had to taunt, the switch to dps bc the other dps wasn't doing anything. That's the only drawback of tanking for me, having to rely on *** dps.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Enslaved wrote: »

I mean, being a complete jerk because someone wanted to provide free advice?

What I see here is more a player who is upset because his advice has not been valued, accepted and followed.

Dubhliam

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

scrub
noun: scrub; modifier noun: scrub

1. informal: an insignificant or contemptible person
2. a person who still uses the word scrub in 2016

Scrub, Urban dictionary

A scrub is a now generalized term used as a synonym for a "noob" or "newb," which is someone who is bad at a video game or activity in general.

Most of the definitions here, surprisingly, have nothing to do with the actual term. The original definition is related to a person who makes a mistake in a video game, which is such a bad mistake that it is clearly wrong, yet they persist in making it. The term derives from Street Fighter II, to describe some players that were so bad that they would mash their hands across the control pad, an act known as "scrubbing," because it relates to scrubbing a car or other object with a sponge. Thus they were deemed "scrubbers," or "scrubs" for short. Over time this term expanded throughout the gaming world, and then the real world, and lost its original meaning.

But yeah, thank for trying to be funny anyway.

Buffler

I decided to test this out yesterday so I pugged banished cells 2.

1 tank
1 healer
2 dps

We got to fight the maw....well me as a stam sorc was tanking as the tank ran around poison injecting. The other dps stood in the doorway sniping. The tank then votes to kick the healer and thats when I had to explain to the tank what to do. He didnt even realise the maws hp was now at 5.7m not 2m like before. I told him to taunt the maw, back into the corner and keep him there whilst the healer can heal you through the fire and we can dps from the rear. I got no response so i left group. Bloody pugs!

Junipus

If i have to go with inexperienced or noob players I always try and give them a little TLC because I don't want no scrub

Dubhliam

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I mean, being a complete jerk because someone wanted to provide free advice?

What I see here is more a player who is upset because his advice has not been valued, accepted and followed.

I didn't even have time to give out the advice in this particular example in the OP.
The CP66 healer started being rude and interrupted me while I was trying to figure out what the group was using in terms of weapons and skills.

So, no. I wasn't upset because my advice was not valued accepted and followed. I wasn't upset at all. Because I did not have time to properly advise them.
If I had gotten upset, I would leave the dungeon.
Simple as that.
The CP66 healer on the other hand DID get upset. Just because he did not want to get advised.

As I said before, the example in the OP is just that - an example.
This thread is should in no way revolve around that particular event.
This thread is about the general attitude of players that don't accept advice, the general lack of tutorials and knowledge the game provides, and everything else that contributes to such situations.

This problem is YUGE. It's not about me, nor the people in that run.

anitajoneb17_ESO

TLC ? (decoding please ?)

Karivaa

I normally don't do dungeons but spent all day yesterday doing them to level a sorc. I was level 40. We kicked 2 healers. The first one was a level 16 dk who said he was a healer. The 2nd one kept going afk.

I wish more people would use voice chat. It is difficult to learn the dungeons and do well when u don't know the fights.

Giraffon

I've been trying to develop an "end game" DPS build for running dungeons. Since this group seems to have an idea of what a good DPS can do, I would love to know what kind of numbers I should be aiming for. I don't need crazy. Just good enough that other players will be of the opinion that I'm pulling my weight.

I've already got pretty good Tank and Heal builds for dungeons but my so called DPS isn't where I want it yet. My Vamplar Healer gets over 20K DPS in bursts fairly often with larger numbers of mobs. My NB is only getting around 14-17K DPS on larger mob groups. What numbers should I be trying for?

raglau

TLC = tender love and care

Junipus

Karivaa wrote: »

I normally don't do dungeons but spent all day yesterday doing them to level a sorc. I was level 40. We kicked 2 healers. The first one was a level 16 dk who said he was a healer. The 2nd one kept going afk.

I wish more people would use voice chat. It is difficult to learn the dungeons and do well when u don't know the fights.

DKs can be good healers if they know what they're doing. Their passives allow for some really strong heals and it's entirely possible to heal a dungeon group only using the restoration staff skills.

But I'd always suggest a templar if you're pugging it as over-healing is sometimes the only way to get through things.

Soafee

You complain about elitist players yet your entire POV in the post says you're one of them. If you're having so much trouble with groups maybe the common denominator is you. I'm so not looking forward to getting into grouping. I'm only level 10 (level 10, not 50+ cp or whatever level 10.) and if it's people like you that are going to lose your cool because of the way I'm playing it's going to suck the fun out of it for me so fast.

You don't start a post by calling people scrubs and then trying to help them. You already set new players into defense mode. No one enjoys playing with someone that thinks they know everything.