Scrub mentality in group dungeons

Dubhliam

So... I applied for normal WGT today with Group Finder.

I know... my mistake for using GFT, I said I wouldn't, and I should not be justifying my choices, but it was yesterday's pledge and it's a Key. Besides, even normals count towards the Urgarlag achievement.

Since my main is a tank, I made the mistake of applying for the position of tank (I did not change the setting), while I wanted to apply for a DD spot, since I learned from my mistakes that I should not be PUGing with a tank since I can't carry the whole team that way.
I noticed that because I got a group almost instantly, and I commented about that in the group as soon as we got in.
The comment was met with silence.
Hence I swapped to my tanking gear, and said to myself: "heck, let's give it a try, maybe the're not bad", even though we had a level 14 healer, two DDs - one was around 30, and the other was level 48.

Just a quick comment about the healer - two players died on the Glutton even though I always had aggro.

The Adjudicator fight went as expected - one DD was spamming light bow attack with an occasional Arrow Spray and Poison Arrow. The other was spamming Force Pulse with an occasional Frag proc. Healer... well he was just doing resto heavy attack (a classic, I know).
There were a few deaths because they didn't dodge the boss' channeled three lines.
As soon as the boss threw me in the cage (meaning I lost aggro) the one DD that got aggro went on a chicken spree screaming rampage of disbelief and went to hide behind one of the walls. I guess if the boss can't see you, he will start looking for a new target, right?
I force locked, grabbed aggro real fast, and we could continue.
But that didn't stop the group from wiping. I mean, no heals does that to a group.
Then I asked if there is someone in the group that can tank, so that I can switch to a DD role. I was willing to carry the group, but I don't want to be blamed to be "that guy that rolled tank, but does not hold aggro" even though I am positive that I would have the boss' complete attention.
To which the healer responds that I applied for the tank role and that I should stop wasting everybody's time.
Okay, no problem. I said I won't waste any more of their time and left.
Because, hey, it is a waste of MY time if I continue to tank for that particular group. Not only that, but the response I was given was pretty much an answer to the question "how would they react to my lecturing on Planar Inhibitor tactics when we wipe?".
As soon as I got out of the dungeon, the healer only confirmed my initial suspicion of a scrub mentality by whispering me and saying that I am a *** and that he put me on his ignore list.
Boo hoo.

I pity any and all players that PUG regularly and only have tanks.

Asardes

At least they were under level 50. I've seen people near or at the CP cap spamming light/heavy attacks and one ability. There was a healer who had no healing staff, and who was spamming heavy attacks from inferno staff with BoL. The tank taunted bosses just once, then held block, and didn't realize that he lost aggro. The Adjudicator was all over the room, filling it with fire. Somehow we reached Planar but I couldn't take it anymore and left. I wasn't even mad, I was just tired and laughing my dorsal side off. And it was vet, with a group from zone chat, with people that had CP400+. Thank The Eight I have almost farmed that dungeon out, and have no reason to do extra runs, save the one for the pledge. Powered SPC resto staff dropped yesterday and I have 2 sharp destro staves so I can make a 5-5-1 setup on my healer.

visionality

Have to admit this the reason why I don't like to go into random groups with my healer these days anymore. It always was fun, because frankly as a healer in a pro-group your job is a tad boring sometimes (buff and debuff and keep SPC and combat prayer on) whereas in a random group you can be really surprised and tested. And newbies are really happy when they complete a vet dungeon, which is sweet too.

But with those light-attack spamming DDs with a bow and the tanks that think aggroing a boss means puncturing him once at the beginning and then switch to 2h and spam executioner (yay!) - or even better switch to bow and spam more light attacks (yayayay!) -, things turn pretty sour for a healer. And it's exactly those pug groups where the attitude is worst and everybody reaches new hights at flaming and shaming.

Easier to go as DD, solo-kill everything if you're stuck with idiots or have fun when you are around nice ppl.

Asardes

I've geared up my Templar and found it quite easy to solo the Craglorn quests and delves which were still marked as "group". She's geared as a healer, with 5 SPC, but it procs a lot from puncturing sweep. With channeled focus I never run out of the blue stuff, and with harness magicka up the red stuff is barely dented. Probably normal dungeons are easy enough to solo. I will try some.

Masel

I can contribute another example:

It was a pledge run with a random group: there was a guy on a woodelf nightblade using a two-handed and a bow in vet Wayrest 2. He died around 15 times because he ran into trash mob groups without the rest of the group and already ranted about why he died and insulted the healer for not doing his job properly. He was around 300 cp, which made it even worse.

Then, after he died several times at the last boss (I was the other dd on my Stamsorc) I kindly asked him what kind of build he was using because I wanted to help him improve his build to avoid that from happening again.

Then he started to insult me that his build was throughout BiS gear for PvE DPS (yeah right, two-handed) and that I should *** off and shut my mouth as I had no idea how the game was supposed to be played. I left the group because I didn't want to help people like that getting any achievement in the game, which made him even angrier and starting to insult me via PM. I will continue trying to help others, but this is the kind of stubborn, immature behaviour that ruins it for me sometimes.

I surely know the game (have 6 full lvl chars, 4 stormproof dds, healer and a tank) and in the beginning, I was glad when people told me what to do and what not to do as it helped me improve.

Asardes

At the beginning I learned to tank mostly from what people told me in the text chat. What targets to prioritize, even what skills to use. It was harder for me since it's my first online game. But I never got mad at people for showing me what I needed to do. On the contrary, I was glad I could learn. But if people don't know the basics and they don't want to learn them, there's no way they will improve. Thus, people reach high CP and still play than a newbie that actually listens. It's 100% an attitude issue. It's even worse, since people with lots of (wasted) hours and lots of (useless) CP feel more entitled than someone who has just joined the game.

Dubhliam

Just to add to the PUG situation from this morning...

After I finally got into a PUG a couple of hours later as a DD, this is how it ended:


Because DDs can carry unlike tanks.

Asardes

I guess the dude with 21K health was the tank. Food is for weaklings

Asardes

Anyway, yesterday evening marked my last day grouping with people from zone chats or trade guilds. After spending 4 hours in VCoS and failing again and again, with the first 3 groups at 2nd boss, the 4th one at the last, I finally gave up. It was 2:30 AM and my eyelids were dropping, my hands were sore and I totally didn't give a hoot the helm I have is reinforced. It's totally not worth wasting my time doing dungeons with randoms. From now on I will only run dungeons with people I know or I'm in an actual PvE guild with, and even so, I will cap my time for running pledges to 90 minutes. If it takes more than that I will simply not run one of them. I have most monster sets in decent traits (reinforced, infused) and that 1.5% extra critical from a divines piece won't really make any difference.

Prabooo

Hot_spur wrote: »

If someone wants to mentor me, I'd be all for it.

I'm at a point where I don't know what to do next. (There's no manual, that I know of.)

I've leveled up to a little over CP400. But I only deal about 1.5K dps (if I'm reading my stats right).

I only recently learned that a stamina DPS should be wearing medium armor, not heavy. I had intended to start leveling medium gear, so I was accumulating it, and when I would get a better piece, I'd sell the lower stuff. But as I said, I only recently learned that I should be using it as a DPS. So now I do.

I used to run out of stamina all of the time, even after I ate food. But now, I almost never run out.

But, I don't know what to do next to improve my damage dealt.

So, if anyone wants to help a polite person out, I'd be grateful.

Study armor sets combinations, check you mundus stone, look at the enchants for jewelry, weapons and armor, revise all your class/armor/weapon/world/guilds/racial passives and last check your CP allocation.

Dubhliam

Asardes wrote: »

Anyway, yesterday evening marked my last day grouping with people from zone chats or trade guilds. After spending 4 hours in VCoS and failing again and again, with the first 3 groups at 2nd boss, the 4th one at the last, I finally gave up. It was 2:30 AM and my eyelids were dropping, my hands were sore and I totally didn't give a hoot the helm I have is reinforced. It's totally not worth wasting my time doing dungeons with randoms. From now on I will only run dungeons with people I know or I'm in an actual PvE guild with, and even so, I will cap my time for running pledges to 90 minutes. If it takes more than that I will simply not run one of them. I have most monster sets in decent traits (reinforced, infused) and that 1.5% extra critical from a divines piece won't really make any difference.

Yes, the 21k Health guy was "tank".
He didn't taunt most of the time. He also didn't rotate the Daedroths to face them away from the group when he actually DID taunt them.
The healer was so bad that I don't remember if he even had any healing skill slotted. He is Sorc, after all.
The DD was... well what can you expect from a level 20?

The point being is, if I go normal PUGs, I will go as DD only because that is the only way to carry people.

The example you gave is quite different.
It doesn't have much to say about scrub mentality. It is a veteran mode DLC dungeon.
Urgarlag's pledges (DLC dungeons) are the hardest, and you shouldn't PUG it on veteran mode. EVER.

I guess you had to learn that the hard way.

Asardes

I'm thinking of giving up running pledges for good. And even giving up PvE for a few months. I wanted to PvP for a long time, but the daily pledges are such a time sink that when I arrive at the end of the day I realize that's too late, I have to work tomorrow, and thus go to bed. And that's repeated every day. I just want to break the cycle. I've been running them non stop for a year. Maybe it's time to stop.

Doctordarkspawn

Asardes wrote: »

I'm thinking of giving up running pledges for good. And even giving up PvE for a few months. I wanted to PvP for a long time, but the daily pledges are such a time sink that when I arrive at the end of the day I realize that's too late, I have to work tomorrow, and thus go to bed. And that's repeated every day. I just want to break the cycle. I've been running them non stop for a year. Maybe it's time to stop.

Honestly I've been considering the same ever since One Tamriel. Something has just got to give and it's not fun anymore because the dungeons require skill the playerbase cant obtain. There are various reasons for that, but it's the long and short of it.

Asardes

It's not about the skill. I have plenty of that. It's about the mindless repetition of the same dungeons every couple of weeks. I've been running the pledges non stop for the last year, every day. At some point I was running up to 10 random dungeons a day for the XP. It's not about One Tamriel. It's about burnout.

daedalusAI

Volenfell normal.

First 2 individuals in the group were 500 and 700+cp: one queued as tank being dps and both were only able to use arrow spray and light attacks. Both died 2x at the first 2 trash groups and left.
The remaining 31cp was spamming snipe, light attacks and maybe volley.

Queued again in dungeon finder to get 2 new individuals: 645cp sorc who only uses light attacks and daedric curse on trash groups and now a real tank.

Group refused to kick, the 645cp sorc who did worse than a new lvl 10 player and finally they kicked me because I refuse to heal someone of that caliber.

Infuriating how people are max cp or close to it while knowing nothing.

failkiwib16_ESO

@daedalusAI darling these types get themselves one-shotted in the most odd ways, just walk over their body and repentance them if your healer is a templar at least then their death, if not life ...can make a difference to the rest of the team ^^

---

I have experienced that me and my friends (all cp700+) que for a dungeon, get 1 random guy in and the guy decides to leave almost instantly as they join the group. We get a new guy in who decides to leave almost instantly again ...I don't know if it is a bug where someone gets auto-kicked from the group, or something else like that ..because me and my friends were prepared to carry the worst of noobs when we used grouping tool ..so we sure as hell did not kick anyone.

I've also heard from my cp800+ friends that they join random dungeons via the grouping tool and the group disbands instantly as they join - so that everyone gets a 15min cooldown.

Dubhliam

Okay... so the story goes like this:

Found some randoms via zone chat to do veteran pledges (Volenfell and Elden Hollow 2). I tanked.
Starting off with Volenfell, the first boss was easy, if we can even call that a boss, and all seemed to be going smoothh.
On the second boss, Quintus Verres, the healer made a remark "tank, hold the boss still". Now, I don't claim to fully understand the mechanic behind the boss, be he is sometimes unresponsive to taunts. Both before and after he picks up the staff. So I say "he's untauntable", to which he replies "okay, then at least group together". I'm guessing to make his time healing us a little more easier.
At this point I start paying attention to what the group is doing.
Instead of finding something out of the ordinary with the healer, I notice that one DD is only spamming Snipe on bosses. Then I remembered that I saw a Magicka Detonation go off in a trash pack earlier, but both DDs are stamina...
No doubt, the Snipe spamming dude was also using Mag Det.
This also makes me realize that the other DD must be doing spectacular DPS cause the bosses fall down fairly quickly.
After the chaos with the last boss(es), which are again - untauntable (2 out of three are to be precise) I anticipated that the good DD will leave the group.
Both of us made some remarks about the approach of DPSing the other DD had. He was obviously spending most of his time in Cyrodiil, where he also probably didn't have great success (I'm guessing).

What happened next blew my mind.

It wasn't the DD that left, it was the healer. He probably didn't know the mechanics of Volenfell and thought I was doing a terrible job at keeping aggro.
And now, that we are left without a healer, the good DD didn't leave. Quite the opposite. He actually went over his head to find a healer to fill in.
And then he proceeded to carry us through the whole of Elden Hollow 2!
Where Bogdan is kind of a DPS race.

I don't know who you are, Jarlaxle Magaw, but you are a pearl among DDs. You have shown that not all high DPS players are elitist, and that there are players out there that don't look at other group members as a necessity to complete your own goals, but rather three other human beings.

The negative experiences in dungeons usually have a much larger impact on me, but this one simply outweighed anything I have experienced recently.
Thank you.

Rockndude

A guildmate and I qued on his tank, my healer for the veteran dailies recently which were direfrost keep and spindleclutch 2. Spindleclutch took far too long since on bloodspawn we just kept our dps buffed and alive and dealt no damage and the roof almost caved in on us right as the last bit of health disappeared. They were not in group chat.

Direfrost we had new dps: a 561 and a 200 something CP. The 200 cp guy was in chat and listened to my friend and I when we described the mechanics and he ran them well. They combined did not have the dps to burn the boss more than it would heal at first, even when the boss's healing mechanic was broken immediately. I had to start damaging with spamming reflective light in between healing springs so that the boss would drop to execute range. The biggest detriment to this group was not the 200 CP but the 561 CP that was not in chat slowly learning that you have to break free of the attack that the boss heals itself with. This 561 also did not stay close enough for my heals to work and refused to take shards when resurrected. The final boss took 30 minutes and I had to switch to tristat food midway through to ensure my break free was available because if the boss healed at all we would have not gotten through it.

If it was not for the single guy in group chat willing to learn and get better we would have left. Moral of my story is group chat is key. Please use it if you are pugging.

Dubhliam

Okay... another great example of scrub mentality.

And again... my fault for using Group Finder (this time for a veteran dungeon, shame on me twice).

vVoM.
I was tank, one DD and the healer were max CP, one DD was CP90.
You guessed it, the CP90 is the scrub.

There was no kick, we litterally carried him through the dungeon, he spent 100% of the time dead on the first boss, and mostly dead on all others. Last boss killed him three times because he didn't get out of his channel.

There was little to no conversation before we finished (one guy was asking if anyone had a merchant).

This is the transcript of the conversation after the final boss:

EDIT: note that after I asked if anyone had any pieces to trade, he initiated a trade request.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

Okay... another great example of scrub mentality.

And again... my fault for using Group Finder (this time for a veteran dungeon, shame on me twice).

vVoM.
I was tank, one DD and the healer were max CP, one DD was CP90.
You guessed it, the CP90 is the scrub.

There was no kick, we litterally carried him through the dungeon, he spent 100% of the time dead on the first boss, and mostly dead on all others. Last boss killed him three times because he didn't get out of his channel.

There was little to no conversation before we finished (one guy was asking if anyone had a merchant).
.../...
EDIT: note that after I asked if anyone had any pieces to trade, he initiated a trade request.

Yet another misunderstanding that ends up in people calling each other names.
The guy probably had not noticed or didn't know that his drop would be CP90 and therefore useless to you. He was offering you his drop and you answered in an ambiguous way which he took as unthankful and insulting.
If you had said "THANK YOU, but your drops would be CP90 and I need CP160 gear", nothing would have happened.
/story.

Dubhliam

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Okay... another great example of scrub mentality.

And again... my fault for using Group Finder (this time for a veteran dungeon, shame on me twice).

vVoM.
I was tank, one DD and the healer were max CP, one DD was CP90.
You guessed it, the CP90 is the scrub.

There was no kick, we litterally carried him through the dungeon, he spent 100% of the time dead on the first boss, and mostly dead on all others. Last boss killed him three times because he didn't get out of his channel.

There was little to no conversation before we finished (one guy was asking if anyone had a merchant).
.../...
EDIT: note that after I asked if anyone had any pieces to trade, he initiated a trade request.

Yet another misunderstanding that ends up in people calling each other names.
The guy probably had not noticed or didn't know that his drop would be CP90 and therefore useless to you. He was offering you his drop and you answered in an ambiguous way which he took as unthankful and insulting.
If you had said "THANK YOU, but your drops would be CP90 and I need CP160 gear", nothing would have happened.
/story.

Yes, blame me for not Phrasing it more politely and wrapping it with a bowtie.

The rage and insults were pretty much warranted without the "thank you" part in my sentence.

I guess anything other than:
"I am sorry dear friend, thank you for offering your drops to me, it is much appreciated, but I am not interested. Thanks again. Much love. Stay cool."
is considered "ambiguous".

Get a grip why don't you?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Dubhliam wrote: »

I guess anything other than:
"I am sorry dear friend, thank you for offering your drops to me, it is much appreciated, but I am not interested. Thanks again. Much love. Stay cool."
is considered "ambiguous".

Get a grip why don't you?

I guess anything like giving the other side the benefit of the doubt is totally unacceptable to you ?
Oh wait, you wouldn't have anything to fuel this thread further with "scrub-hate"...

Woeler

I never understood why people used the scrubfinder instead of simply joining a guild.

Dubhliam

Woeler wrote: »

I never understood why people used the scrubfinder instead of simply joining a guild.

I am in a guild. And I regularly take guildies with me.
But it's hard to find people in the morning, and I sometimes do up to 9 runs a day, with three or more different characters. Especially if there is a good set in one of those dungeons, like Worm and SPC (both dailies yday).

PokeMaule

Lol I enjoyed reading most of the comments in this thread and its good to know some high end players are indeed willing to help and offer advice. This is my 1st character in any MMO ever and so far enjoying the he'll out of it. I have yet to experience been kicked but I have had the frustration of higher levels leaving so much so that after waiting hours on my very 1st normal pledge a cp 561 decided that he, my gf 150 at the time and myself about 200 at the time could three man it. I believe it was one of the thieves guild ones had a big ass duneripper In it anyway. So we breezed through until the final boss where the 561 decided to leave us without even attempting.
No way was I going through all that to miss out on my very 1st monster set lol so me and the gf spanked the life out of that final boss. A few very close calls but zero deaths. As a bonus I got the shoulder I wanted on my 1st attempt lol.

Since then however I have had the pleasure of chatting with some fantastic high end players who offer up mechanics advice before runs etc. So much knowledge gained that I am able to now pass some on and even start spotting mechanics myself.

Just wanted to say thanks to all high enders who do have some patience for us noobs because some of us can and do learn and eventually become better players. Apologies for any random spelling the Kindle fire sucks.

ZOS_Ragnar

We have removed several recent posts that were baiting and disrupting the conversation. Please keep your posts civil and constructive.

Xsorus

Ya know; I will do normal dungeons with low level players as it's not difficult; but bloody hell if I see one more sub 160 in the vet queue I'm going to be pissed

Loves_guars

I usually play with friends. Yesterday I tried 3 vets with randoms, I dread to venture again.

I couldn't care less about CP, DPS or Skills my group mates have.

But.

Could you, Mr Random DPS Guy, please wait 2 SECONDS, (no more) for the tank to start the fight instead of pulling 3 different mob groups AND the boss, ON PURPOSE?

Thanks!

Matt45045

I think ZOS should make quests that explain how to play the game, it would easily fit into the story line. You enter the world from Coldharbour with no memories of who you are or your past. So it would be reasonable to have a learn to fight questline that would explain painfully basic stuff to people like Skills, resource management, and the basics of building a character. I think for PvP, much more is needed than the cursory introduction you are given.

I've been on both sides of it, I had a guy explain all the mechanics of Imperial City Prison to me and a group where he was the only one who had done it. He was patient and we cleared it slowly but steady. Yesterday, while trying out a new(unsuccessful) build on my wife's mDK, a group was nice enough to carry me through while I did 15% of the dps as the dps so I could get a Grothdar mask. On the other hand I have ran dungeons doing 80% of the DPS on my Nightblade while tanking the boss with Vigor, Dual Wield heals, and Draining Shot as no taunt was being used. As was already mentioned, there is no manual and a lot of people don't read forums, a lot of people are coming over from Skyrim and the main, overworld quests in this game don't prepare you for....well, really anything at all. Until something is done about those core problems I think we should offer advice to those who want it and help them learn when we have the time as it improves everyones experience overall. If we all took some time to at least point those who wanted to learn in the right direction, there would be a lot less of these experiences. That being said, I have no patience for those with bad attitudes. I think the OP handled the situation very well. If I'm carrying a group and they start being rude I leave immediately and let them fail on their own.

code65536

Woeler wrote: »

I never understood why people used the scrubfinder instead of simply joining a guild.

Because sometimes it's good to poke one's head out of the bubble.

Plus, it can be fun. A chance to show newbies the ropes, and it's more challenging than a perfect-group faceroll. People like to complain about how dungeons are not challenging enough, yet many also complain about how going into a dungeon with an imperfect group isn't a faceroll and takes too long.

Dubhliam wrote: »

I pity any and all players that PUG regularly and only have tanks.

With the exception of a few specific fights (e.g., Overfiend), the incoming damage in normal dungeons is just too low to require full tanks. Whenever I get queued in as a tank on a normal dungeon, I do it in full DPS gear, with sword and board on the back bar with a taunt. I will hold aggro on the boss and keep it steady, but I'm doing DPS 90% of the time on my main bar. I'll swap to the sword-and-board bar only to block specific attacks that absolutely need to be blocked. I've tanked many nWGT runs like this.