Scrub mentality in group dungeons

SquareSausage

Dubhliam wrote: »

SquareSausage wrote: »

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

I always brainlag hard when I run ICP as a healer, with low dps on team. I mean I f*ck up those portals soooo bad lol it's the only dungeon I can not adapt to, with low DPS on my team. While the portals spawn, I'll be busy trying to cast Siphon Spirit and Drain, so I never manage to reach for the portals ......I can do it with high dps on the team though, because then I only have to jump down portals 1-2 times max and I get time for all my buffs, otherwise I go down like a fresh pantless noob from Khenarthi's Roost.

I find more troubling is people who dont close portals at all. From running this so many times, prob 90% of the time it happens, if it does, is by chars sub 50. When typing instructions there is no response and obv they are not on voice chat, thats a given.

I find BoL spam if on portal duty best technique, buffs and debuffs can wait until the single most important job is done, which is to close the portals, normal play can resume once they are closed.

I believe you (or both of you) confused WGT Planar Inhibitor portals with ICP Lord Warden portals.
@failkiwib16_ESO said ICP, but he might as well be talking about WGT portals.
EDIT: nope, he's talking about ICP portals.

Ha ye Im thinking WGT as its on my mind as constantly running for SPC.

failkiwib16_ESO

@Dubhliam, @SquareSausage - I was talking about the ICP portal at endboss, the Planar portals in WGT is easy for me. I only brainlag in WGT if I am sleepy & tired to the point of forgetting what role I have in the group - which I have done 2-3 times lol.

SquareSausage

failkiwib16_ESO wrote: »

@Dubhliam, @SquareSausage - I was talking about the ICP portal at endboss, the Planar portals in WGT is easy for me. I only brainlag in WGT if I am sleepy & tired to the point of forgetting what role I have in the group - which I have done 2-3 times lol.

aha yea I get that now I brainlagged reading the thread. Ooops.

raj72616a

today's pledge is direfrost. and it seems to me vet direfrost isnt a pledge that can be reasonably soloed, especially when players uneducated abt the mechanism will heal the boss a lot.

my pug started with leet dps and leet healer. the healer insisted to do the scroll, we failed, they insulted each others, and the healer left. replacement healer performed even worse, then leet dps left. after a few wipe and quit and replacement, i (tank) was left with a dps and a healer who was doing vet direfrost for the first time. when we get our dps replacement, we explained to the new dps about the situation and asked him to be patient with this group since we will need some practice before we can finish the boss. the dps agreed. as expected our first couple of tries failed again, but the leet dps gave advice, switched gear, took up additional role, encouraged the other dps who wasnt confident, and when we finally finished the boss, he gave us debrief evaluation and tips before leaving the group.

so... yea half the time i might just leave a group that wasnt working. but when some leet are willing to teach, and some newbies are willing to learn, and ultimately overcome a real challenge, it feels great.

failkiwib16_ESO

@raj72616a I so agree Q.Q

Back when dungeons were not scaleable, my friend spent 2-3 hours at the endboss in Banished Cells with a group of level v1-v3 players... he finally replaced himself with me so he could do trials, and when I joined I asked if they only did the quest or they also had pledge (it was pledge of the day). They wanted both... x_x I spent 50 minutes explaining boss mechanics, telling everyone what they should do & when .... luckily they did listen pretty well, we wiped 1 time and finished quest + goldpledge on second try. IT FELT SOOO GOOOD!

I will never forget that run..

Doctordarkspawn

I've started just requesting 500+ CP DPS outright. Because there's no way to get good pugs reliably otherwise.

I've long since stopped having the patience for being screeched at for trying to offer advise.

Diminish

I am not one to just give up, I've spent 3+ hours in a 4 man dungeon before. The way I see it, if I can help someone out, and they are willing to stick it out then I will. I am not saying it was fun, or that I wouldn't have preferred to just face roll it with a group of friends. I give people an adequate shot to improve, learn the fights/mechanics, and to ask questions before I will leave group. I have seen it more often than not, myself and another high CP level in a dungeon with a couple newer, more casual players, and after 2 wipes on the same boss the other guy just leaves. Really? 2 wipes? You can't fix the thinking of some people, sadly.

Now, if I get into a dungeon and it is 100% just not going to happen (8-10 wipes on a boss with no progress toward beating him), then I will politely announce that I am going to give it one more shot over group chat or text chat. To those who just leave, you know what happens to the rest of us? We are forced to disband, and then hit with a penalty for doing so. Another issue in itself.

Asardes

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Some people are outright braindead and cannot be helps whatsoever.

Take my PUG run of vICP today on my DK tank. The run was going, relatively, smoothly. No major deaths during anything, mechanics were done alright, no real problem thru the whole dungeon. Then, we make it to Lord Warden and everything that could possibly go wrong does.

It was very clear that the Magplar DPS was new to the fight as he died to every single Death Bomb move of Lord Warden. After we wiped the 1st time due to Portal Feedback, we told him to hop into the portal to avoid the mechanic and so Portal Feedback wouldn't kill us. So he starts doing that and you'd think that would be all it took to get into the clear, right?

WRONG!!!!

So, at around ~50%, the healer goes down due to not healing/shield up/standing behind me during Lord Warden's channeled attack and the DPS soon follow. I was just able to get the revive off on the Magplar DPS (as he was the closest person to me to be revived) before a Portal got close enough to force me to move. I figure he'd wait for the portal to go by before reviving so he could go and revive the other DPS and Healer. HE REVIVES WITH THE PORTAL ON TOP OF HIM!!! Instantly gets sucked in, falls to his death and we wipe again.

That level of idiocy was just too much for me. He didn't even respond while the rest of the group asked why he revived.

Lmao. This story made me chuckle. I'm telling you dude. I refuse to be bothered with PUG's nowadays. I absolutely refuse. It's like 9x out of 10 something bizzare happens, and then it just gains momentum into a snowball effect of bad to worse.

My 1st VICP run was with a PUG because nobody wanted to run with me unless I linked the achievement, which I didn't have since I'd had just bought the DLC. It took me something like 5-6 hours to finish, but I've learned every mechanic there. I had watched a few tutorials online just before, and knew what I had to do, but took a while to synch with the others, especially because they hadn't done any research and I had to explain every mechanic myself. At the end the other 3 people that queued initially quit because they said they couldn't take it anymore. Finished with a few people from the guild. The next day I ran the dungeon for pledge with some random people from the zone chat and had speed run with 1-2 deaths because I knew exactly what to do. I've since had runs of less than 25 minutes with hard mode boss fights since and also had a couple of no death runs. So practice makes perfect.

Asardes

Dubhliam wrote: »

Fourth boss.
Oh man. This one DD started attacking both hoarvors at once, and when he got one shot from overlapping red pools, he started raging. As if this was nonsense and that ZOS' design is basically bugged, glitched and just plain nonsensical.
I asked that he comes to TS (again). His answer was something like "No, I'm cool, I am experienced, I have 5xx CP. Let's just get this over with" to which I asked him if he knew that overlapping red pools = instadeath. "Oh, yeah? Well, I didn't know about THAT, but I can't come to TS" (no reasons given).
Note that the other DD, around 300 CP came to TS at this point, with no mic, just to listen.
We managed to kill the Abomination the second time around.

Actually the DDs must burn the hoarvors fast, so that their circles don't overlap and kill them. However the fact that they got attacked by both shows that they were not taunted. At the start of the fight the tank must taunt the boss and one of the hoarvors, and let the other run, one DD should focus on the roaming one, while the other AoE the boss and the one aggroed by the tank. Preferably, the boss and add should be drawn to a corner to concentrate the ground AoE and swipe attacks away from the other group members. I've also done him in the middle with both hoarvors aggroed, and it's actually faster if both DDs are primarily AoE, but that takes a more experienced group.

Mutagem

I have to say its a relief reading some of these dungeon horror stories realizing I am not the only one to have suffered through them. I was SO HAPPY Velidreth helms were at the golden vendor this weekend. Because after about 3 or 4 pug groups doing vCOS I now refuse to do anymore pug DLC dungeons. It's just not worth the hassle. I'm down to help people if I am already in the dungeon but when it becomes routine everytime you go into a DLC pledge it gets very tiresome very quickly.

I spent 4 hours in vCOS the other day and didn't even end up completing it, such a waste of time. Few people got on TS for last fight against velidreth [non hard mode too mind you], we agreed DPS grab the torches. One time we wiped cause I had the torch and as im going through the maze the healer RUNS OFF AHEAD OF ME..OUT OF THE FLAME CIRCLE...into some dead end I knew wasn't the right way, then dies cause of it...Before that he wasnt dodging the spikes just standing there...when at the beginning I explained like 3 times what to do in very fine detail...like how after the circle below you is gone the ground will rumble thats when you dodge.

Then I'm asking why he was doing that in the chat cause I didn't have my mic set up at that time. doesn't respond whatsoever, then comes on the TS after reading my chat where I am typing in caps saying hes not listening to the instructions I typed and he spazzes out on the TS and leaves saying "I am out of here, we can't do this dungeon unless everyone communicates on TS, I can't read during a fight" Then just leaves....lol I wasn't even typing during the fights I was typing after the wipes asking why you were doing that lol You can also do that damn dungeon without being on TS. I clearly explained things several times very cohesively. The tank was also guilty of just standing there not dodging during spike phase too.

Asardes

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I've started just requesting 500+ CP DPS outright. Because there's no way to get good pugs reliably otherwise.

I've long since stopped having the patience for being screeched at for trying to offer advise.

That's pretty hit and miss from my experience. Got very good CP250 people and awful CP500 people, both in terms of player skills and attitude. If the people know the mechanics, CP300 is enough for any veteran dungeon, including DLC ones. Hard mode is doable in IC ones with CP300 people, but for SotH ones you'll in deed need max CP, BiS gear, and very experienced players to do. Only managed to do the hard mode 2 times in VCoS and 1 time in VRoM, with pretty much the same group. The latest hard mode on VCoS was basically 3 man job, because one of the DDs, which was new, kept dying to boss and adds and he was dead for 3/4 of the fight; he was max CP though. He had played so badly trough the dungeons that day - even managed to screw up in simple dungeons like VFG2 - that one of my buddies actually deleted him from his friends list after the runs.

So as long as they show they know the mechanics, or at least are willing to follow directions, don't dismiss anybody based solely on they CP or lack thereof. I've noticed that following directions is very hard for some, even at max CP. Had a group last night for VRoM and the healer kept releasing the wamasus at Xal-Nur too fast, 2 or even all 3 at a time, despite the fact I had told him 3-4 times to release a single one every time the boss turns invulnerable. And he was max CP or above 500 in any case. He screwed up the same way every time, despite being told also by the DDs to release just one of the lizards, but we finally managed to kill the boss with just me and one of the DDs alive and were able to move on. We wiped about 10 times at the end boss, but managed to beat that.

Dubhliam

Asardes wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

Fourth boss.
Oh man. This one DD started attacking both hoarvors at once, and when he got one shot from overlapping red pools, he started raging. As if this was nonsense and that ZOS' design is basically bugged, glitched and just plain nonsensical.
I asked that he comes to TS (again). His answer was something like "No, I'm cool, I am experienced, I have 5xx CP. Let's just get this over with" to which I asked him if he knew that overlapping red pools = instadeath. "Oh, yeah? Well, I didn't know about THAT, but I can't come to TS" (no reasons given).
Note that the other DD, around 300 CP came to TS at this point, with no mic, just to listen.
We managed to kill the Abomination the second time around.

Actually the DDs must burn the hoarvors fast, so that their circles don't overlap and kill them. However the fact that they got attacked by both shows that they were not taunted. At the start of the fight the tank must taunt the boss and one of the hoarvors, and let the other run, one DD should focus on the roaming one, while the other AoE the boss and the one aggroed by the tank. Preferably, the boss and add should be drawn to a corner to concentrate the ground AoE and swipe attacks away from the other group members. I've also done him in the middle with both hoarvors aggroed, and it's actually faster if both DDs are primarily AoE, but that takes a more experienced group.

I don't usually taunt the Hoarvors, since most experienced people I play with are aware of this mechanic, and each DD only attacks one Hoarvor - left and right. That way, nobody will get two pool beneath him at the same time.
If however, there seems to be a person in the group that isn't aware of this (like in the example) and we wipe, then I will taunt one Hoarvor on the second try.

EDIT: Also, when there are new players on TS; I tend to explain dungeon mechanics as soon as we are get to see them the first time.
The first time we encounter Hoarvors is just after the Watcher boss, when I explain about the overlapping pools.
So when it's time to fight the Abomination, I simply say: "Each DD attacks one Hoarvor".

daedalusAI

Wayrest Sewers II.

My now lvl 31 dk healer and the rest of the group between 60 and 190cp.
The "tank" was a dual wield dps who queued as tank for shorter queue times and didn't even bother to use a shield.
The other 2 were barely able to move out of any red thrown at them.
All of them died a few times until we reached the first boss.

Not one of them knew the mechanics of deactivating both altars to prevent the person she grabs from dying - NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

At that point the run was already dead for me.
Only 1 of the dps talked because I was getting annoyed in chat and he asked if I would continue to do so.
The "tank" didn't say a single word.

1 wipe and everyone left.

If you're this high up in your cp points and know basically nothing speak up - because I will assume you know how the dungeon works with your level.

CromulentForumID

bigredsnake wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And people will still argue for difficult dungeons in the face of group like this.

It's like trying to give someone prime rib when what they want is a Big Mac. You can show them how tastey it is but they still want big mac.

Not saying it's right. Just saying, this is how the world of pubbies are.

Yeah because some of us liked the role playing aspect of these games. But you MMO heads want the same thing in every MMO you ever play. You don't care about the lore, the storyline, you just wanna grind for gear, kiss up to a guild, and make a build that is the exact same as everyone else's in that role's build. I don't even know why these games offer lots of choices since you guys all want your healer, tank, dpses, mana healers (thank God ESO didn't do that snoozer), etc to all be the exact same thing for their power set.

It gets old if you're actually trying to attract anyone other than you guys. Frankly they should ignore you guys, you're mostly addicts anyways, you'll play regardless until enough of your friends move on the next MMO fix. You won't leave and most of you can't anyways barring something really radical.

Also most gamers can't stand MMO heads and we're just here because we liked Skyrim. Also we blame all of you for the tone down in violence. I know it gets in the way of all those stupid numbers you have to have. You probably play in 3rd person with the camera zoomed out because there's nothing more Elder Scrolls than that.

My personal favorite is how your camera settings determine how much of a REAL ELDER SCROLLS FAN (tm) you are. Would read again.

vamp_emily

I have a very simple solution ( I have posted a few times in threads like this ).

If you are on PC/NA server, join Friendly Dungeon Runners. It is a guild set up for dungeon runners for all factions.

Requirements:
-PC/NA server
- be nice to each other and show respect to all members

Since the guild was created ( around 3 months ago ) I have only received 2 complaints about some member acting up. Other than that, everyone seems to get along and nobody is dropping out of groups.

We have a little over 250 players right now. The more friendly people we have, the more dungeons will get completed and everyone will be happy. I am trying my best to make it a perfect place for everyone. I am constantly recruiting, I created a forum for the users to share build ideals and dungeon mechanics, and I'm also working on a calendar so members can plan events for dates in the future.

For everyone who is complaining. Ask yourself this question. "Would you rather be here complaining about people dropping out of groups, or would you like to get the dungeon completed and enjoy those drop sets?"

The link is in my signature to the recruiting page, or you can contact me @vamp.emily. I understand some guilds are not a perfect fit for everyone, but don't hesitate to join. If for some reason you don't like it, you always have the option to leave.

Jar_Ek

Is there a Friendly Dungeon Runners EU?

daedalusAI

Elden Hollow II

A 70cp stamina dk who uses blade cloak against single targets, has dual wield on his 2nd bar but keeps using 2h with cleave and reverse slash as his main aoe abilities and can't even interrupt one of those npc healers.
I've not seen a single dk spell being used.

Mind-blowing.

After I've told him what he is doing wrong he was like "get a RL".

Too bad he didn't want to tell me his /played.

Another thing that bothers me is that there are more and more dps queuing as heal or tank just to get shorter queue times and there is no penalty for such a behavior seeing as I can select every role in the dungeon finder without any requirements needed.

Asardes

daedalusAI wrote: »

Too bad he didn't want to tell me his /played.

You would be surprised how much can some people can play without actually learning anything. Some have solo played for hundreds of hours, mindlessly grinded trash mobs for XP and/or raw materials or simply stayed in one place and told stories in the zone chat about what their character allegedly does. One day in Rawl'kha the zone chat was simply flooded with stories about a thieving Khajiit PC. I had to block that fella because I couldn't follow the other announcements.

LadyNalcarya

bigredsnake wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

And people will still argue for difficult dungeons in the face of group like this.

It's like trying to give someone prime rib when what they want is a Big Mac. You can show them how tastey it is but they still want big mac.

Not saying it's right. Just saying, this is how the world of pubbies are.

Yeah because some of us liked the role playing aspect of these games. But you MMO heads want the same thing in every MMO you ever play. You don't care about the lore, the storyline, you just wanna grind for gear, kiss up to a guild, and make a build that is the exact same as everyone else's in that role's build. I don't even know why these games offer lots of choices since you guys all want your healer, tank, dpses, mana healers (thank God ESO didn't do that snoozer), etc to all be the exact same thing for their power set.

It gets old if you're actually trying to attract anyone other than you guys. Frankly they should ignore you guys, you're mostly addicts anyways, you'll play regardless until enough of your friends move on the next MMO fix. You won't leave and most of you can't anyways barring something really radical.

Also most gamers can't stand MMO heads and we're just here because we liked Skyrim. Also we blame all of you for the tone down in violence. I know it gets in the way of all those stupid numbers you have to have. You probably play in 3rd person with the camera zoomed out because there's nothing more Elder Scrolls than that.

Well, Ive been fan of TES universe for more than 10 years, but I suppose casual Skyrim fanboys know better.
It seems Ive been playing those games in a wrong way all those years.

daedalusAI

Imperial City Prison:

631cp dps who queued as tank, got wrecked 2x by the overfiend and left without saying anything.
Over the last few days I got more and more dps queuing as tank simply due to the fact that the dungeon finder has no requirements for people to being able to select tank.

Really annoying.

Asardes

daedalusAI wrote: »

Imperial City Prison:

631cp dps who queued as tank, got wrecked 2x by the overfiend and left without saying anything.
Over the last few days I got more and more dps queuing as tank simply due to the fact that the dungeon finder has no requirements for people to being able to select tank.

Really annoying.

That boss hits like a lumber truck with broken brakes coming downhill. Can one shot even a proper tank if he breaks block at the wrong time or his harvester lady friend gives him a helping hand. Most veteran dungeons can be done without a proper tank, but VICP is certainly not one of those. Even some of the trash pulls have (re)wipe potential, especially the ones that include harvesters. The most infamous of those is the one right before Lord Warden's council: 1 Harvester + 1 Flesh Atronach + 2 Hoarvors + 1 Mage. I screwed up the no death achievement there a number of times.

Lava_Croft

Pugging is a very valid way to make ESO's braindead easy PvE content mildly more interesting.

Pallio

I mostly just pug normal and run vets with guild. Doesn't really matter what people do in normal, I just tank the boss until it is eventually dead. Had a guy in werewolf almost the whole time in wgt last night, w/e play how you want it is normal who cares.. lol

Dubhliam

Asardes wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

Imperial City Prison:

631cp dps who queued as tank, got wrecked 2x by the overfiend and left without saying anything.
Over the last few days I got more and more dps queuing as tank simply due to the fact that the dungeon finder has no requirements for people to being able to select tank.

Really annoying.

That boss hits like a lumber truck with broken brakes coming downhill. Can one shot even a proper tank if he breaks block at the wrong time or his harvester lady friend gives him a helping hand. Most veteran dungeons can be done without a proper tank, but VICP is certainly not one of those. Even some of the trash pulls have (re)wipe potential, especially the ones that include harvesters. The most infamous of those is the one right before Lord Warden's council: 1 Harvester + 1 Flesh Atronach + 2 Hoarvors + 1 Mage. I screwed up the no death achievement there a number of times.

I think you have 1 Mage extra in that combination.
It is a very mechanically intensive trash pack, and it will punish anyone that STILL does not know them this far in the dungeon.
The Harvester is nothing new, all players should already be up to speed with those mechanics.
Atronarchs are introduced right after the first boss and play a key part in the second boss fight.
Hoarvors are introduced after the third boss and play a major part of the fourth boss fight.

The only thing people should know about that particular trash fight is the priority:
Hoarvors>Atronarch>Harvester
Instead people run around like headless chicken kiting and killing unomportant undead summons.

Jeremy

daedalusAI wrote: »

Another thing that bothers me is that there are more and more dps queuing as heal or tank just to get shorter queue times and there is no penalty for such a behavior seeing as I can select every role in the dungeon finder without any requirements needed.

This is one of the few things that really annoy me when running pugs.

I can forgive a new player who doesn't have the experience yet to be effective in dungeons. When I ever join pugs I am prepared to deal with the possibility of a failed run (and so should everyone else).

What I can't deal with are players who join as tanks yet wield lightning staffs with no taunts and play as if they are dps.

I don' t ask for much. But I do insist that players recognize the role they queue up for. If you don't want to tank - then don't sign up as a tank.

daedalusAI

Another thing that is really starting to bother me besides dps queuing as heal/tank: most of the high cp people I group with (range from 90-440cp so far) during random dungeons on my lvl 31/35 healer are incapable of moving out of red areas - almost as if it's the first time they've seen a big red marker on the ground.

And I'm not talking about some boss aoe: I'm talking about your standard random aoe damage from simple trash packs. Best example would be the first few trash groups in Wayrest Sewers II and their plentiful aoe.

A lot of those incapable entities described above just sit in the fire and die within seconds while I'm blown away by such plays.

The highscore so far holds a 123cp dying 4 times before we even were at the first boss in Wayrest Sewers II.

Asardes

CPs are not a measure of skill. Had 200 CP people who played just fine and CP561+ people that were total noobs in every respect: no effective rotation, no situational awareness, no group role experience. I can understand if someone tries a new build and he can't pull 100% of the damage he has been pulling on his main, but at least 80-90% of that is to be expected. If he can't kill even the trash, then he's a scrub.

daedalusAI

Asardes wrote: »

CPs are not a measure of skill. Had 200 CP people who played just fine and CP561+ people that were total noobs in every respect: no effective rotation, no situational awareness, no group role experience. I can understand if someone tries a new build and he can't pull 100% of the damage he has been pulling on his main, but at least 80-90% of that is to be expected. If he can't kill even the trash, then he's a scrub.

But it's a clear indication that a person has invested time into farming those cp levels.

Right now I'm in Wayrest Sewers 1 on my lvl 46 heal templar:

• 115, 116 and a 524 cp in my group
• it takes longer to kill trash and even bosses than running with a full party of lowlevel
• Radiant Destruction and Mages Fury being used on targets above their bonus damage threshold
• barely able to use light attacks and 1 or 2 spells or attacks

How do such people get through questing areas being so incapable?

Asardes

Well, the world and DLC quests, which are quite easy to complete, grant a lot of XP. Also killing mobs in leveled areas, just as all Tamriel is now. So one can entirely avoid any group content for a long time, and still have no trouble reaching CP 400+. I've been solo questing on an alt and I was gaining 2 CP a day, although I'm well above the cap. Below cap it would be at least 4. Also people could have been carried in group dungeons, or even downscaled them for an easier ride, which is no longer possible in One Tamriel. People below CP160 are in a worse spot than people with no CP and below level 50, because they actually have lower stats. It's how scaling works. But nevertheless, a normal dungeon should be easy to complete even by people with no CP, if they have at least a basic understanding of their build, skills and group roles.

Dubhliam

Asardes wrote: »

Well, the world and DLC quests, which are quite easy to complete, grant a lot of XP. Also killing mobs in leveled areas, just as all Tamriel is now. So one can entirely avoid any group content for a long time, and still have no trouble reaching CP 400+. I've been solo questing on an alt and I was gaining 2 CP a day, although I'm well above the cap. Below cap it would be at least 4. Also people could have been carried in group dungeons, or even downscaled them for an easier ride, which is no longer possible in One Tamriel. People below CP160 are in a worse spot than people with no CP and below level 50, because they actually have lower stats. It's how scaling works. But nevertheless, a normal dungeon should be easy to complete even by people with no CP, if they have at least a basic understanding of their build, skills and group roles.

It's not the level or Champion point that limits a person.
It's their mentality.