Promoting Constructive Discussion on the Forums, and Adjusting Moderation

ZOS_AlanG

Since these forums opened, we’ve worked to foster a welcoming place for the community to discuss the game, and provide feedback. We wanted to take a moment to discuss this goal in greater depth and we can maintain this. Additionally, while the Community Rules are not changing, we are making a few adjustments to how we moderate the forums.

A big part of making this community great is to remember to be constructive and respectful. We recommend reading our guide on How to be an ESO Community Hero to achieve this end. We also have an awesome group of Community Ambassadors here that help maintain the welcoming atmosphere. They do a great job helping people out and participating in discussions, and they’re worth keeping an eye on if you want to help too.

Avoiding Problems, and Keeping Criticism and Disagreements Constructive

Most problems on forums stem from a disagreement, but disagreement and debate also results in some of the most productive and engaging discussion a forum can have. To keep these on track, please keep your comments civil, constructive, and on topic.

Feedback for the game is another area that is extremely important, but can also attract problems – sometimes because it results in disagreement and debate. It is perfectly fine to critique the game, criticism is quite valuable, but as above this needs to be civil and constructive. The moderatos are here to help promote this; we have no interest in quieting any particular topic. You are welcome to post your suggestions, complaints, and frustrations – but to keep this productive it shouldn’t resort to bashing the game, devs, or members of the community.

It is important to always remain respectful when posting on the forums. You don’t have to treat everyone like a dear friend, but everyone is allowed their opinion, and it is not acceptable to attack or demean someone you disagree with. If you see someone breaking the rules, please report them rather than responding. Responding risks escalating the situation. Being provoked also doesn’t excuse breaking the rules yourself. If a particular person frequently annoys you, you should also consider adding them to your ignore list.

Changes to Moderation

We are expanding our forum’s strike system, and we will now issue three formal warnings rather than two before considering a permanent ban. Any warning may also carry with it a temporary suspension. This increase gives us more flexibility, and bring us into alignment with the BethSoft and Bethesda.net forums.

Especially egregious offences may result in one’s account being immediately banned.

If someone is banned, they are not allowed to come back with another account. If we identify an account as such, it will be closed.

If you have questions about any moderation action, or wish to appeal an action, you can PM a moderator to discuss the matter, or submit a ticket. If you're submitting a ticket, be sure to state at the beginning that your message is in regards to the forums, so it can be properly escalated.

Taking Better Advantage of the Forums Available

We have a wide variety of forums here to help keep discussion organized, and make it easier to find topics relevant to your interest or question. However, many of these spaces are neglected in favor of simply posting in General Discussion. Before posting a thread, we ask that you take a moment to review the forums available, to see which is the best place to post it.

Some topics can fit in various forums – choose the one you feel fits it best. For example, discussion of skills and balance generally belong in Combat & Character Mechanics or PvP Combat & Skills forums. Although if you’re talking about changes on PTS, then the Public Test Server Forum would be preferable.

As part of this, moderators will now be actively moving misplaced threads they come across, in any of the forums. We’re also happy to hear any feedback on ways we can further increase organization on the forums.

Continued Discussion

We are leaving this thread open for any questions or feedback about moderation and forum organization. We’re happy to hear your thoughts on how we can keep this forum a great place to visit and participate.

However, please do not post any questions related to specific moderation actions. These will be removed. If you have questions, they should be submitted via PM, or as a support ticket.

Lord_Wrath

I think a big issue is a topic can have a large debate and mods/devs hardly have anything constructive to say, or it can be months until something is brought up.

The sorcerer Q&A for example, it took how much before taking a notice to communicate with us? Then the answers werent that great. There were questions just obviously beat around the bush and not directly answered.

We need faster and better communication between ZoS and player.

rgullaksenb16_ESO

I agree with Lord_Wrath, the communication between ZoS and player is really bad. I think one of the reasons we see so many forum posts with the same topics, is because the dev/mods dont really have anything to say, welll besides closing and removing threads!

I think most people is getting the impression that you really doens't care about the player base. I hope that's wrong, and actually listen this time.

ginoboehm

sooooo just to get that straight if we make a critical post about the game which you think is egregious bashing we can get a instant perma ban? is my topic constructiv critisism or bashing? Will you try to communicate a bit more about any kind of topics with your customers because your reducement on insightful comments on important topics is quite disturbing for most people. Especially frustrating was the reduction of attention you paid to the pts forum compared patch to patch.

cpuScientist

Look at the Templar thread I'm theices guild and the Sorc threads this time. And avoid doing that in the future. And don't add insult to i jury by having a fake discussion at the end when nothing can be done, which basically told sorcs that they play with no skill and now have to try amd feel like bad***es by pulling off heals in PvP. That was a big slap to the face and showed a lack of understanding of the class itself.

ginoboehm

cpuScientist wrote: »

Look at the Templar thread I'm theices guild and the Sorc threads this time. And avoid doing that in the future. And don't add insult to i jury by having a fake discussion at the end when nothing can be done, which basically told sorcs that they play with no skill and now have to try amd feel like bad***es by pulling off heals in PvP. That was a big slap to the face and showed a lack of understanding of the class itself.

not only classes @Wrobel even said that it is no problem that posions are harming smaller groups because you will die anyway if you are outnumbered.

ZOS_AlanG

Hi guys, this thread was written with a focus on promoting constructive discussion among players. While we don't mind requests to have mod developer interaction, this is somewhat tangential and we don't want this to get off track.

For the moderators, enforcing the rules to remove problems is important, but a short term solution. Explaining why the rules are in place, and getting people invested in the community, helps in the long term. This thread was written, in part, to help with this goal. It is not only a means of being preemptive, but the moderators can also direct people too it to help put the rules in context.

ginoboehm wrote: »

sooooo just to get that straight if we make a critical post about the game which you think is egregious bashing we can get a instant perma ban?

This is a good question. To be insta-banned for a single offence you typically have to do something illegal. This has always been the case, but we wanted to spell it out here - we should have been more clear.

ginoboehm

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Hi guys, this thread was written with a focus on promoting constructive discussion among players. While we don't mind requests to have mod developer interaction, this is somewhat tangential and we don't want this to get off track.

For the moderators, enforcing the rules to remove problems is important, but a short term solution. Explaining why the rules are in place, and getting people invested in the community, helps in the long term. This thread was written, in part, to help with this goal. It is not only a means of being preemptive, but the moderators can also direct people too it to help put the rules in context.

show previous quotes

ginoboehm wrote: »

sooooo just to get that straight if we make a critical post about the game which you think is egregious bashing we can get a instant perma ban?

This is a good question. To be insta-banned for a single offence you typically have to do something illegal. This has always been the case, but we wanted to spell it out here - we should have been more clear.

sooo the last weeks people were complaining that the communication between forum users was bad? they complained soo much these last days that zenimax decided it is time for one of the longest postst in weeks? well then thank you for protecting us from this mayhem and focusing on the real issues

Moonscythe

I would love to see a colour variation in the Z to signal whether there has been an answer or response to the discussion as opposed to just the "Keep it civil" or "thanks for bringing this to our attention" notice.

ShedsHisTail

Lord_Wrath wrote: »

I think a big issue is a topic can have a large debate and mods/devs hardly have anything constructive to say, or it can be months until something is brought up.

The sorcerer Q&A for example, it took how much before taking a notice to communicate with us? Then the answers werent that great. There were questions just obviously beat around the bush and not directly answered.

We need faster and better communication between ZoS and player.

Yeah, I don't disagree with this at all.

It seems to me that the longer a thread gets, the more likely you are to see the conversation devolve into non-constructive discussion. But the thing it, people want to keep the thread going until it's been seen, they want some sort of answer to their question or at least some acknowledgement that the conversation has ben witnessed and considered on some level. Until some green text shows up to say, "Hey guys, we see this and you have some valid points." or "Thanks for the feedback, folks, but this thing is the way it is because ________" the conversation is just going to keep going around and around because everyone wants to be right and will become increasingly frustrated because no definitive feedback has been given to validate either side of the issue.

While I understand that the moderators can't answer every question, I think it would save a lot of people a lot of grief if the Greens were a little more involved in the conversation and not just the moderation.

Turelus

One thing I noticed recently regarding ZOS interactions was there was some lack of consistency in what was we were allowed to say/post between threads.

For an example there were two threads where myself and others had been discussing exploits and been very critical and spoken openly (without revealing details) about exploits. In those threads I was posting all of this but when I moved to another new thread and posted the same things I was moderated for it.

I ended up having to make a stupid paragraph before my posts stating I had already said it in other threads without being moderated just to make sure I could continue a discussion without my posts being removed.

Regarding player interactions so much of the issues seem to just come from ego and players need to rule other others. I haven't really seen anything this bad in other MMO forums, sure there were you elitist jerks but here it seems everyone is out to prove it.

Having a good debate back and forth over an issue can happen between to members from time to time but most often the gaps between those posts are filled with "L2P" and "OMG YOU'RE A HAXXOR!"

cpuScientist

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lord_Wrath wrote: »

I think a big issue is a topic can have a large debate and mods/devs hardly have anything constructive to say, or it can be months until something is brought up.

The sorcerer Q&A for example, it took how much before taking a notice to communicate with us? Then the answers werent that great. There were questions just obviously beat around the bush and not directly answered.

We need faster and better communication between ZoS and player.

Yeah, I don't disagree with this at all.

It seems to me that the longer a thread gets, the more likely you are to see the conversation devolve into non-constructive discussion. But the thing it, people want to keep the thread going until it's been seen, they want some sort of answer to their question or at least some acknowledgement that the conversation has ben witnessed and considered on some level. Until some green text shows up to say, "Hey guys, we see this and you have some valid points." or "Thanks for the feedback, folks, but this thing is the way it is because ________" the conversation is just going to keep going around and around because everyone wants to be right and will become increasingly frustrated because no definitive feedback has been given to validate either side of the issue.

While I understand that the moderators can't answer every question, I think it would save a lot of people a lot of grief if the Greens were a little more involved in the conversation and not just the moderation.

This is the answer. This is the problem. The longer a thread is ignored the more it will devolve into anger. And as we all know ZOS is a master of ignoring. They ignored cheaters until there was too much blatant evidence of it to continue to ignore.

If you ignore a leak it will eventually turn into a flood....

Arthmoor

Something I think that would help with keeping duplicate threads from popping up whenever some big issue blows up - post a sticky for it. Take for example this whole thing with the hacking. Dozens of threads every day about it. If there had been one big sticky at the top where people could see it, with an official statement opening it, a lot of the crap the moderators have been putting up with would be eliminated. Everyone would know right where to go to find the relevant information instead of having to dig 300 replies into some random thread looking for the staff response and hoping it wasn't a moderator cleaning up troll posts.

RAGUNAnoOne

one of the issues is moderators having the same "Z" that actual GMs have. Every time I see a Z on a huge topic I find important only for it to be a mod it gets me so mad sometimes I end up posting stuff I shouldn't and I think others do as well. Can something be done about this @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_AlanG @ZOS_DaryaK

Theodorus

Well, the one time I tried to appeal a mod's decision by PM, he refused to answer.

So, ZOS_AlanG, if Zenimax is serious about opening communication channels I'd love to see it.

ZOS_AlanG

Hi guys, please do not use this thread simply to complain about the game itself. Additionally, please keep criticism constructive. Some posts have been removed.

Moonscythe wrote: »

I would love to see a colour variation in the Z to signal whether there has been an answer or response to the discussion as opposed to just the "Keep it civil" or "thanks for bringing this to our attention" notice.

We agree. Unfortunately a proper fix to the system will require a fair amount of work, so it isn't easy to implement.

Turelus wrote: »

One thing I noticed recently regarding ZOS interactions was there was some lack of consistency in what was we were allowed to say/post between threads.

For an example there were two threads where myself and others had been discussing exploits and been very critical and spoken openly (without revealing details) about exploits. In those threads I was posting all of this but when I moved to another new thread and posted the same things I was moderated for it.

Consistency is very important, but we don't see every post. We may moderate a post without realizing there are similar posts elsewhere, particularly for a fast-moving thread. If we action someone, and they let us know there are similar discussions happening elsewhere we'll probably look favorably on that, particularly if links are provided.

Arthmoor wrote: »

Something I think that would help with keeping duplicate threads from popping up whenever some big issue blows up - post a sticky for it.

In my experience stickying something is often the best way to get it ignored. A lot of people get so used to looking past the pinned threads they don't notice when a new one is there. Having lots of pinned threads tends to make this worse.

Theodorus wrote: »

Well, the one time I tried to appeal a mod's decision by PM, he refused to answer.

So, ZOS_AlanG, if Zenimax is serious about opening communication channels I'd love to see it.

Let me reach out to you via PM to discuss when this happened and who you reached out to.

mistermacintosh

Arthmoor wrote: »

Something I think that would help with keeping duplicate threads from popping up whenever some big issue blows up - post a sticky for it. Take for example this whole thing with the hacking. Dozens of threads every day about it. If there had been one big sticky at the top where people could see it, with an official statement opening it, a lot of the crap the moderators have been putting up with would be eliminated. Everyone would know right where to go to find the relevant information instead of having to dig 300 replies into some random thread looking for the staff response and hoping it wasn't a moderator cleaning up troll posts.

Agreed. Knowing what issues you're actively working on helps. ESO live does a pretty good job of communicating that (famous line: "We're not working on that now, but we want to do it in the future."), but more info in the forum would be nice, especially during those periods between episodes.

Of course there's the whole "you don't need to know everything we're doing because it's super secret" thing. I understand that too. A little mystery is good. But things like fixes, etc... if it's a known issue and it's on your radar maybe put it in a report we can see. Yes, it would be a massive document, and you would have to polish it and update it constantly, but it might relieve some player frustration (and developer/moderator frustration as well).

Also, I know you guys don't like to set timelines/suspenses... but we want timelines/suspenses, particularly with unscheduled server down-times.

Lunachik

Thanks for this set of guidelines for reference, and info on how the forums will be moderated. Unruly discussions between players on the forums has been an ongoing issue , and it actually has kept me from participating in discussion, even recently on the PTS, because people can be very mean spirited, even on minor issues. I won't speculate as to the reason. In any case glad to hear there is something concrete going on to help curb the nastiness factor. It is appreciated.

Riggsy

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

As part of this, moderators will now be actively moving misplaced threads they come across, in any of the forums. We’re also happy to hear any feedback on ways we can further increase organization on the forums.

If people aren't using certain boards in the forum to post topics consider removing those boards. Seriously, why are there boards concerning zones/quests, and do we really need 4 of them? If people want fast solutions they'd be better off Googling it (and Im sure they do already). And 3 boards concerning PvP, really? One would suffice... Meanwhile, you don't have boards for each individual class to discuss builds and abilities.... Bottom line, less is more. Keep fewer boards with a larger concentration of quality content.

Nestor

I think if people just remember to discuss the point and not the person making the point, it is pretty easy to have a good debate on things.

Leandor

Please make the current number of strikes visible to us, in the sense that each of us can see only our own.

Lucifer_Malice

Pretty sure they're just trying to get rid of confrontational/abusive people. Everyone is over the whole internet rage thing. Take your anger somewhere else. Kudos to ZOS!

notimetocare

Honestly, moderation seems sporadic and terrible. Half of the things I see get moderated is all about being overly sensitive, but thats just me

Xjcon

rgullaksenb16_ESO wrote: »

I agree with Lord_Wrath, the communication between ZoS and player is really bad. I think one of the reasons we see so many forum posts with the same topics, is because the dev/mods dont really have anything to say, welll besides closing and removing threads!

I think most people is getting the impression that you really doens't care about the player base. I hope that's wrong, and actually listen this time.

In all fairness to the devs, pre 1.6 They were very transparent, they would update lots of things, even have devs in discussions. The First time i seen the community all out attack the devs was right before 1.6. The players went too far imo over some of the things they disliked. one community in particular seems to like to attack the Dev team more often then not over game changes.

Rune_Relic

In the spirit of constructive posts...
All the ZOS responses in any thread bleed into and blank 2cm of the' post above them' when you mouse over the ZOS post..
Win10 x64 + Firefox.
None of the normal user posts do this.
Some kind of a DIV css error or something.

ZOS_AlanG

Nestor wrote: »

I think if people just remember to discuss the point and not the person making the point, it is pretty easy to have a good debate on things.

That's an excellent rule of thumb.

Riggsy wrote: »

If people aren't using certain boards in the forum to post topics consider removing those boards. Seriously, why are there boards concerning zones/quests, and do we really need 4 of them? If people want fast solutions they'd be better off Googling it (and Im sure they do already). And 3 boards concerning PvP, really? One would suffice... Meanwhile, you don't have boards for each individual class to discuss builds and abilities.... Bottom line, less is more. Keep fewer boards with a larger concentration of quality content.

We can look at forum usage, and ways to improve/consolidate the structure. The goal with moving threads is to make it easier to find pertinent information, and reduce the amount of duplication that can occur when a single topic is being discussed in several places. We don't want people to feel exiled to unused corners of the forums, although in some cases we may need to encourage posting in some areas. Balance discussion is a good example of this.

Leandor wrote: »

Please make the current number of strikes visible to us, in the sense that each of us can see only our own.

This is a good suggestion, but not something we can currently enable. If you look at your profile there should be a moderation tab you can go to that lists official warnings, but typically suspensions were not issued with the warning system so they won't show up. We'll see what we can do to better communicate this, and in the meantime we'll make sure to tell people when they're on their last warning.

newtinmpls

Now please do realize that when encouraging people to "look for a thread in which [issue X] has been previously addressed" you will inherently run the risk of people being disturbed and claiming thread necro-ing.

I personally think that use of a previously started thread (slightly) encourages a more balanced discussion.

Arthmoor

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

In my experience stickying something is often the best way to get it ignored. A lot of people get so used to looking past the pinned threads they don't notice when a new one is there. Having lots of pinned threads tends to make this worse.

Yes, that could happen, but the trade off for NOT doing it is the current chaotic mess we have now where people are looking for information and unable to find it. So they post a thread. They promptly get jumped on by people saying it's over there buried 30 pages deep in a thread that's already scrolled off the first few pages.

With a sticky, at least for major stuff, you'll simply be able to point people to that and be done with it when they inevitably open a thread anyway. The rest of us will see it there. This forum software is better at making stickies obvious than the current software running Bethesda.net. Probably even better at making them visually obvious than IPB is too.

Savage_Audacity

Lord_Wrath wrote: »

I think a big issue is a topic can have a large debate and mods/devs hardly have anything constructive to say, or it can be months until something is brought up.

The sorcerer Q&A for example, it took how much before taking a notice to communicate with us? Then the answers werent that great. There were questions just obviously beat around the bush and not directly answered.

We need faster and better communication between ZoS and player.

not to say i disagree and sorry for the clichès but... patience is a virtue and be careful what you wish for. If the devs focus more on responding to players that could POSSIBLY mean less focus on the actual issue at hand. My point is just because zeni isnt telling us what they are doing doesn't mean they arent doing anything.
dont get me wrong i want assurance that the major issues are being addresses but id rather have their focus directed towards the in game issues rather than trying to please thousands of different personalities on the forums.

cpuScientist

Arthmoor wrote: »

Something I think that would help with keeping duplicate threads from popping up whenever some big issue blows up - post a sticky for it. Take for example this whole thing with the hacking. Dozens of threads every day about it. If there had been one big sticky at the top where people could see it, with an official statement opening it, a lot of the crap the moderators have been putting up with would be eliminated. Everyone would know right where to go to find the relevant information instead of having to dig 300 replies into some random thread looking for the staff response and hoping it wasn't a moderator cleaning up troll posts.

LOL they would not sticky the hacking problem. They want that to slowly fade away so they don't have to face the reality of the situation.

cpuScientist

Savage_Audacity wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lord_Wrath wrote: »

I think a big issue is a topic can have a large debate and mods/devs hardly have anything constructive to say, or it can be months until something is brought up.

The sorcerer Q&A for example, it took how much before taking a notice to communicate with us? Then the answers werent that great. There were questions just obviously beat around the bush and not directly answered.

We need faster and better communication between ZoS and player.

not to say i disagree and sorry for the clichès but... patience is a virtue and be careful what you wish for. If the devs focus more on responding to players that could POSSIBLY mean less focus on the actual issue at hand. My point is just because zeni isnt telling us what they are doing doesn't mean they arent doing anything.
dont get me wrong i want assurance that the major issues are being addresses but id rather have their focus directed towards the in game issues rather than trying to please thousands of different personalities on the forums.

Sure they don't have to pop in every single day. But on something like this, where a hug change has been made and players will freak becuase of said huge change. And people will begin to go in their camps of for or against. And players will start to argue about class direction. And thread count starts passing 20 quickly. ZOS has to jump in. Even if they just say watch the next ESO live we will answer questions.

Or to just in SORC case, a simple question everyone had was. What are our identity. Are we supposed to be summoners, healers, DPS, Tanks....(yes you can play your way, but every class has very easily plotted things that they are best suited to) and we could not got an answer on this or on a good reason for alot of the changes or how or what is being planned to help give the class some direction. Instead we got a Q and A at the end when nothing could be changed, and then to tell is that none of us are skilled players and that when we pull off a heal in PvP we should feel amazing because the heal is so difficult. We heard Silly things and for annoyed