Official Feedback Thread for Sorcerers

Grao

Derra wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

* Apparently, dying to gankblades over and over and over again in 2 seconds flat was hilarious to all of them. Killing one required some NINE PEOPLE to take one down (Gina's comment I believe, "Wow, it takes nine of you to kill this guy!"). They all thought that was perfectly fine, the issue is that the players are so good, not that the people are hitting two or three buttons over and over.

The problem this poses in my opinion is:

Someone that inept at playing a game that is rather simple in terms of it´s combat mechanics should not be in charge of designing it. It shows the person is lacking the understanding of the systems they´re supposed to balance/tweak.

Well, it wasn't @Wrobel dying multiple times like that, though I doubt he'd fare much better.

Rakkul

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

And it starts.. ESO Live. Lets hope they announce Sorcerer overhaul!

Well, let us know how it ends, not really expecting them to do anything, but it would be a really nice surprise if they did.

The end and the beginning happened at the same time. - Nothing doesn't tend to use up much space.

cpuScientist

NB swallow soul hits harder and is at half the cost. Something like that would increase sustain and DPS. If it is in the dark magic tree everyone is asking for, then it provides a heal. I don't get what's hard to understand. It gives us the chance to put the stave in the back bar and finally out of sight in PvP we can use a shield dual wield. I do not get what is not understandable about the benefit of an in class spammable.....

NativeJoe

Well you heard it from wobel. we're supposed to be stamina based tanks now. GL.

Grao

NativeJoe wrote: »

Well you heard it from wobel. we're supposed to be stamina based tanks now. GL.

Not stamina based! Crit based tanks...

Jar_Ek

On an unrelated note, if I'm on overload and hit weapon swap... please could I swap to the other weapon bar and drop out of overload.

Grao

Jar_Ek wrote: »

On an unrelated note, if I'm on overload and hit weapon swap... please could I swap to the other weapon bar and drop out of overload.

Yes, that is something we have requested quite a few times.

FearlessOne_2014

Grao wrote: »

Flaminir wrote: »

So we're supposed to be crit build sorc tanks according to Wrobel....

That's the moment I think I finally accepted that things aren't going to change

Because there are so many good sets that provide both tankiness and spell crit, right? Right?

Did you guys noticed @Wrobel dismissive laugh when @ZOS_GinaBruno brought sorcerers concerns up? They all had a good laugh so apparently the class is a nice internal joke. How do you guys feel about that? Being their office joke?

Yes Post this video with the timestamp of this event happening on the video.

code65536

Grao wrote: »

but I maintain having a skill that is spammable would promote build diversity

I never disputed that.

Grao wrote: »

and could potentially help fix our low sustained DPS issues.

Nope, it never will. If you think this, then, again, you don't really understand how PvE DPS works.

Grao wrote: »

The damage of the ability could be set as high or as low as it was needed after some play testing, there are spammables from other classes that do hit quite a bit harder than Force Pulse does.

When you look at sorcs vs. DKs, you're looking at, oh, 5K or more PvE group DPS difference when looking at the top end. Making up for a gap like by just buffing the spammable would require that spammable to hit about 5K harder. That would be hugely imbalanced and broken. The kinds of variation that you see in insta-cast spammables are generally pretty small--certainly not enough to make the kind of difference you think it would make.

Grao wrote: »

You speak of the dilemma nightblades are in, in which they have two abilities to choose from to spam, as a bad thing

I don't think it's a bad thing. It gives nightblades options, and that's good. But we're not talking about options here. We're talking about making sorc DPS competitive, and in that context, you're barking up the wrong tree if you think that replacing Force Pulse will somehow magically fix that. It never will. The nightblade example was to illustrate how replacing Force Pulse could actually lower your DPS. I'm trying to debunk this notion that you have that Force Pulse is somehow trash when it is actually very good.

Grao wrote: »

but you are forgetting how much the sorcerer passives would influence our DPS with every ability cast, not only with our spammable.

No, I'm not. You're overestimating the sorc passives (and overall overestimating the importance of Spell Damage). But even if you're right, and the sorc passives are better, we're still talking marginal numbers--these are not the kinds of stat differences that would make a difference in terms of closing the gap with other classes.

Grao wrote: »

As for Rotation, well you already run one dot in one bar and another on the other bar, lightning splash and Wall of Elements

And DKs run how many? Hint: It's quite a bit more than just two. It's why, despite having lower max magicka than sorcs, lower Spell Damage than sorcs, and no class execute, they still beat sorcs in sustained PvE DPS, and by a substantial margin.

Grao wrote: »

I am not saying giving sorcerers a spammable ability would be a fix for every issue the class has

It would fix exactly one problem: build diversity.

Grao wrote: »

but it would be a good start and it would be the most complicated step, as it would involve completely overhauling a skill.

I'm not opposed to a spammable, and if offered one, I'll take it. I strongly disagree that it will fix sorc DPS issues. It will not, and it cannot. And a good first step, IMHO, is getting rid of Bound Armor. Make that 8% max magicka a class passive like that Nightblades have, and open up that bar slot so we can start using more of the sorc's toolkit without taking that stat hit.

STEVIL wrote: »

So, until you go for THREE toggles... the sorc has more slots than the other classes.

it isn't limited bar space.

I don't count the Overload bar. Why not? Because switching in and out of it is cumbersome and eats a cast cooldown. It means that switching to and from in a regular rotation is out of the question, and it means that some non-toggle abilities need to be duplicated on the Overload bar because exiting and re-entering Overload to reach that ability will eat two cooldowns and result in a huge DPS loss.

cpuScientist wrote: »

NB swallow soul hits harder and is at half the cost. Something like that would increase sustain and DPS. If it is in the dark magic tree everyone is asking for, then it provides a heal. I don't get what's hard to understand. It gives us the chance to put the stave in the back bar and finally out of sight in PvP we can use a shield dual wield. I do not get what is not understandable about the benefit of an in class spammable.....

Well, for PvP build diversity, yes, a spammable is nice. But Grao is talking about sustained PvE DPS, in which case saying that a class spammable will close the gap between sorcs and DKs is simply wrong. As for why Force Pulse outperforms Funnel/Swallow without running into issues of resource sustain, check out this thread.

Grao

code65536 wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

but I maintain having a skill that is spammable would promote build diversity

I never disputed that.

Grao wrote: »

and could potentially help fix our low sustained DPS issues.

Nope, it never will. If you think this, then, again, you don't really understand how PvE DPS works.

Grao wrote: »

The damage of the ability could be set as high or as low as it was needed after some play testing, there are spammables from other classes that do hit quite a bit harder than Force Pulse does.

When you look at sorcs vs. DKs, you're looking at, oh, 5K or more PvE group DPS difference when looking at the top end. Making up for a gap like by just buffing the spammable would require that spammable to hit about 5K harder. That would be hugely imbalanced and broken. The kinds of variation that you see in insta-cast spammables are generally pretty small--certainly not enough to make the kind of difference you think it would make.

Grao wrote: »

You speak of the dilemma nightblades are in, in which they have two abilities to choose from to spam, as a bad thing

I don't think it's a bad thing. It gives nightblades options, and that's good. But we're not talking about options here. We're talking about making sorc DPS competitive, and in that context, you're barking up the wrong tree if you think that replacing Force Pulse will somehow magically fix that. It never will. The nightblade example was to illustrate how replacing Force Pulse would actually lower your DPS. I'm trying to debunk this notion that you have that Force Pulse is somehow trash when it is actually very good.

Grao wrote: »

but you are forgetting how much the sorcerer passives would influence our DPS with every ability cast, not only with our spammable.

No, I'm not. You're overestimating the sorc passives (and overall overestimating the importance of Spell Damage). But even if you're right, and the sorc passives are better, we're still talking marginal numbers--these are not the kinds of stat differences that would make a difference in terms of closing the gap with other classes.

Grao wrote: »

As for Rotation, well you already run one dot in one bar and another on the other bar, lightning splash and Wall of Elements

And DKs run how many? Hint: It's quite a bit more than just two. It's why, despite having lower max magicka than sorcs, lower Spell Damage than sorcs, and no class execute, they still beat sorcs in sustained PvE DPS, and by a substantial margin.

Grao wrote: »

I am not saying giving sorcerers a spammable ability would be a fix for every issue the class has

It would fix exactly one problem: build diversity.

Grao wrote: »

but it would be a good start and it would be the most complicated step, as it would involve completely overhauling a skill.

I'm not opposed to a spammable, and if offered one, I'll take it. I strongly disagree that it will fix sorc DPS issues. It will not, and it cannot. And a good first step, IMHO, is getting rid of Bound Armor. Make that 8% max magicka a class passive like that Nightblades have, and open up that bar slot so we can start using more of the sorc's toolkit without taking that stat hit.

STEVIL wrote: »

So, until you go for THREE toggles... the sorc has more slots than the other classes.

it isn't limited bar space.

I don't count the Overload bar. Why not? Because switching in and out of it is cumbersome and eats a cast cooldown. It means that switching to and from in a regular rotation is out of the question, and it means that some non-toggle abilities need to be duplicated on the Overload bar because exiting and re-entering Overload to reach that ability will eat two cooldowns and result in a huge DPS loss.

cpuScientist wrote: »

NB swallow soul hits harder and is at half the cost. Something like that would increase sustain and DPS. If it is in the dark magic tree everyone is asking for, then it provides a heal. I don't get what's hard to understand. It gives us the chance to put the stave in the back bar and finally out of sight in PvP we can use a shield dual wield. I do not get what is not understandable about the benefit of an in class spammable.....

Well, for PvP build diversity, yes, a spammable is nice. But Grao is talking about sustained PvE DPS, in which case saying that a class spammable will close the gap between sorcs and DKs is simply wrong. As for why Force Pulse outperforms Funnel/Swallow without running into issues of resource sustain, check out this thread.

Hey, I don't disagree with you, as I said, giving us a spammable won't fix all the issues, but it could mean a increase in DPS depending on the values given to the skill. I do understand other classes out perform us because of their superior number of DoTs and better DoTs, but I don't see Zenimax giving us more of those, actually, I don't even know where they'd put such skills.

If you go back several pages I went through sorcerer skill and passive commenting on them and how small changes here and there could make a considerable difference and improve both the classes DPS and Utility, not to mention general build diversity and viability.

For instance, pets... In a way they are a DoT, if Magicka sorcerers could replace Bound Aegis with the DPS pet Tormentor, it would be a powerful DoT. For that though, the magicka increase given by Aegis would need to become the passive that increases health when you have a pet summoned (it makes no sense for our health to be affected when pets are summoned too). Then instead of having Aegis slotted we could have a DPS or a utility pet equipped, either doing some amount of damage while maintaining, or even getting a better buff to our Magicka pool (currently the passive gives 8% health, so it could give 8% Magicka). These changes are actually not that hard to make, ZoS just has to change a few variables and numbers, no changes of effects, etc.

Following to that a small but significant buff to Ward would ensue, allowing the spell to both shield and heal affected pets (just the pets, not the caster). That plus allowing pets to be affected by CPs and maybe increasing their health pools would make summoner builds far more viable.

A spammable ability is the just the hardest change I proposed as it means redesigning a skill. It is also an important change for build diversity. It is not the only fix needed.

I also made suggestions for Stamina and for tanking. The pet suggestions above would already help sorcerer healers as they'd actually be able to keep their healer pet alive through combat.

For stamina, give them a version of Crystal Shards that does good damage, is instant cast, with a too high cost to be a spammable ability. This skill would apply Minor Debuffs to the target, Breach and Fracture. On top of this a buff to Bound Armaments giving it a active that all about boosting DPS, on activation it grants Minor Berserk for 8 seconds or so. This las would even be tempting to Magicka builds. For tanking, the morph Bound Aegis increasing max health and having an active Heal or HoT.

Natas013

cpuScientist wrote: »

NB swallow soul hits harder and is at half the cost. Something like that would increase sustain and DPS. If it is in the dark magic tree everyone is asking for, then it provides a heal. I don't get what's hard to understand. It gives us the chance to put the stave in the back bar and finally out of sight in PvP we can use a shield dual wield. I do not get what is not understandable about the benefit of an in class spammable.....

I'm not keen on losing dark exchange, rather see it as an instant in the way I described previously on this thread. Seems others are instant though. As such I propose this as a possible spamable change for the skill.

No need to change the skills names, or come up with new animations (just color changes for existing skills). Strife is the skill it'll mimic.

Skills cost should be between strife and force pulse, and hit as hard as strife. Make it return 10% of damage dealt as health once, and 10% damage dealt as mag (stam for stam morph) every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. On the mag morph add minor sorcery for 10 seconds, and minor brutality for 10 seconds on the stam morph.

As for surge, since on live DoTs don't proc it, couldn't they make it where ults don't proc it also? Seems a simpler solution than current nerf on PTS.

Now onto the shield. If the problem that has caused this nerf to come about really is the 25k shield utilized in vMA… er cpMA, then why not soft cap shields once they equal max health. To clarify, once shield strength equals your max health you receive diminished returns from that shield and any shield applied on top of it. I think this would be a better solution than nerfing the duration. Tbh, I think this is a better solution than battle spirit current effect on shields, but that may be just me.

I still like my previously suggestion for a spamable attack (active on bound armor for mag, and something more unique replacing CB for stam instead of a stam frag), but I could live with something like this instead.

Metafae

About the Clanfear's Heal, and the Twilight's Heal.

I remember there was a change to the Templar's Breath of Life to make the heal portion cast happen earlier in the animation. People were complaining about how they would cast it to save someone, and it would take too long to actually finish the animation and then apply the heal. It became a thing that people were told that they had to animation cancel the ability to be considered a good templar healer.

The heals these pets give are having the same problem, the heal itself is happening late in the animation, and this isn't highly useful at all when you need that heal now. It wouldn't have been such a problem but with the changes to sorc heals in general, it might be time to address this as it seems that the developers want us to use their pets for heals.

NativeJoe

Grao wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

Well you heard it from wobel. we're supposed to be stamina based tanks now. GL.

Not stamina based! Crit based tanks...

Well I'm already a magicka based tank... but im not slotting crit surge. if I get my hp hit, im dead lol.

NativeJoe

Well After these changes Sorcs won't be welcome in trial runs anymore.
Point blank, the trial minimum dps numbers exceed what sorcs of either stamina or magicka can dish out.
No amount of skill can change that.
As for pvp, Sorcs are to easy to Pop now with their shields down...so they certainly won't be welcome in Zergs because of vicious death. a sorc without a constant shield up is as good as a naked player...and a absolute liability.
As for 4 mans... they're the weak link. shields only hurt their dps, and they offer nothing to the group as a whole. So they'll inevitably slow down farming runs.

But there is good news. Stamina sorcs have the best speed in the game so you guys can run real fast...and farm nodes or something. Just don't expect to complete VMA regularly or be invited to anything once everyone is on the same page and knows how weak this class has become.

CP5

NativeJoe wrote: »

Well After these changes Sorcs won't be welcome in trial runs anymore.
Point blank, the trial minimum dps numbers exceed what sorcs of either stamina or magicka can dish out.
No amount of skill can change that.
As for pvp, Sorcs are to easy to Pop now with their shields down...so they certainly won't be welcome in Zergs because of vicious death. a sorc without a constant shield up is as good as a naked player...and a absolute liability.
As for 4 mans... they're the weak link. shields only hurt their dps, and they offer nothing to the group as a whole. So they'll inevitably slow down farming runs.

But there is good news. Stamina sorcs have the best speed in the game so you guys can run real fast...and farm nodes or something. Just don't expect to complete VMA regularly or be invited to anything once everyone is on the same page and knows how weak this class has become.

Except that vampires can get the same minor speed buff from accelerating drain.

STEVIL

On not counting overload bar for slot when commenting pn toggle slot loss, it would be less misleading if you noted the "if you dont want overload bar" when citing limited slots as an issue. IMO.

O making surge ignore ults, so then not only does surge push against dot use in builds but also against non-utility ulti use in builds as well? One sorc class desoign only sounds dull. New version supports any build that can crit. That seems to me to be a good diversity upgrade.

CP5

STEVIL wrote: »

On not counting overload bar for slot when commenting pn toggle slot loss, it would be less misleading if you noted the "if you dont want overload bar" when citing limited slots as an issue. IMO.

O making surge ignore ults, so then not only does surge push against dot use in builds but also against non-utility ulti use in builds as well? One sorc class desoign only sounds dull. New version supports any build that can crit. That seems to me to be a good diversity upgrade.

I think I speak for more than just myself when I say socrerer's should stop being ignored in regards to buffs with the 'overload' excuse. It is irritating seeing that pop up when a point is brought up and reminds me when sorcerer's were 'negate monkies'. There is more to the class than just the cheese ultimate. Also that bar is very unreliable, unless the sorcerer doesn't use another ultimate and uses overload sparingly.

STEVIL

CP5 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

On not counting overload bar for slot when commenting pn toggle slot loss, it would be less misleading if you noted the "if you dont want overload bar" when citing limited slots as an issue. IMO.

O making surge ignore ults, so then not only does surge push against dot use in builds but also against non-utility ulti use in builds as well? One sorc class desoign only sounds dull. New version supports any build that can crit. That seems to me to be a good diversity upgrade.

I think I speak for more than just myself when I say socrerer's should stop being ignored in regards to buffs with the 'overload' excuse. It is irritating seeing that pop up when a point is brought up and reminds me when sorcerer's were 'negate monkies'. There is more to the class than just the cheese ultimate. Also that bar is very unreliable, unless the sorcerer doesn't use another ultimate and uses overload sparingly.

You quoted me but i did not argue against a buff due to overload.

Overload was used to counter point the claim, unfounded claim imo, that sorcs are short on slots.

However, in any class discussion, all aspects of the class may be relevent.

Natas013

STEVIL wrote: »

On not counting overload bar for slot when commenting pn toggle slot loss, it would be less misleading if you noted the "if you dont want overload bar" when citing limited slots as an issue. IMO.

O making surge ignore ults, so then not only does surge push against dot use in builds but also against non-utility ulti use in builds as well? One sorc class desoign only sounds dull. New version supports any build that can crit. That seems to me to be a good diversity upgrade.

Ulti hit too hard, as previously stated in this thread about overload hits healing to full, and DoTs hit too soft, except maybe curse, to be a good heal with the way it's set up on live. If we had a class spamable skill, this change I suggested seems reasonable. I'll admit my previously suggested stam ranged drain type skill was ill conceived. As such maybe the stam morph should be melee range so it dealing physical damage would make sense.

As for not counting overload bar, I agree with @code65536. When I run it I at most get 2 additional skills and that's if I'm running no toggles. This might be different if weapon swap brought you out of overload.

I also agree that we need more DoTs, and still believe pets should be changed to DoTs like shade. This change would also help DoT builds get heals as opposed to relying on surge. Also it would make for more reliable heals for tanks.

Where I don't agree is the suggested passive swap concerning bound armor. I feel putting an effective active skill on it and it's morphs, justifying having it on both bars (or all three of you run overload), would be better.

In truth sorcs are in a pretty bad spot and could use a lot of attention. There's so many ways the toolkit could be changed up to make us effective, it's hard to settle on what exactly should be done. Obviously the least being changed would be the easiest to get, but may not be the best coarse of action.

cpuScientist

At this point if the health bonus was moved to the bound armor and the magicka bonus moved, that would allow us to have an active ability giving us magicka, so build diversity. That alone would be a game changer. Just give us that.

CP5

STEVIL wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

On not counting overload bar for slot when commenting pn toggle slot loss, it would be less misleading if you noted the "if you dont want overload bar" when citing limited slots as an issue. IMO.

O making surge ignore ults, so then not only does surge push against dot use in builds but also against non-utility ulti use in builds as well? One sorc class desoign only sounds dull. New version supports any build that can crit. That seems to me to be a good diversity upgrade.

I think I speak for more than just myself when I say socrerer's should stop being ignored in regards to buffs with the 'overload' excuse. It is irritating seeing that pop up when a point is brought up and reminds me when sorcerer's were 'negate monkies'. There is more to the class than just the cheese ultimate. Also that bar is very unreliable, unless the sorcerer doesn't use another ultimate and uses overload sparingly.

You quoted me but i did not argue against a buff due to overload.

Overload was used to counter point the claim, unfounded claim imo, that sorcs are short on slots.

However, in any class discussion, all aspects of the class may be relevent.

I quoted you since you used overload as a reason that sorcerer's being the only class with access to toggles any more having three of them and that being ok. Overload is a scapegoat right now, sorc dps low? Overload. Sorc's have 3 toggle skills? Overload. Again and again, that is why I included your post. Those slots, while nice, are only good as long as you don't use up all of your ultimate, takes one of your ultimate slots, and at this point is becoming one of the most brain dead and dull ways to damage in this game. And if you omit the ultimate from the equation then yes, the toggles and the skills you need to make those toggles worth anything give the class next to no options beyond them.

RebornV3x

So after watching ESO Live is obvious either roll another class or leave the game its apparent that they don't care about sorcs and were a joke to them just remove sorcs from the game at this point based on there reaction I won't play my sorc once DB comes out everybody here should do the same hopefully when they see a drop in people playing sorcs they really give sorcs an overhaul.

Neowit

If Dark Deal/Dark Exchange can be made to replace the old heal from Surge, I'm all in favor of that. Surge and it's morphs function a bit too similarly to Rally. But if the plan is to lean us sorcerers in that direction, and if it's implemented well, then the heal on surge is redundant. I personally think it would be pretty cool if Critical/Power Surge instead became the only abilities to provide Major Savagery and Major Prophecy from the back bar. Being able to pull Expert Hunter/Magelight of our main might free us up to slot in Bound Armor or the theoretically functional Dark Exchange morphs.

code65536

STEVIL wrote: »

On not counting overload bar for slot when commenting pn toggle slot loss, it would be less misleading if you noted the "if you dont want overload bar" when citing limited slots as an issue. IMO.

O making surge ignore ults, so then not only does surge push against dot use in builds but also against non-utility ulti use in builds as well? One sorc class desoign only sounds dull. New version supports any build that can crit. That seems to me to be a good diversity upgrade.

As I said, swapping in and out of Overload costs a cooldown. If you don't appreciate the importance of that and why that invalidates your argument that Overload should count, then, I'm sorry, you don't understand the subject.

Minalan

Fixes to look into:

1. Please make dark deal an instant we can cast on the run, so we can use dual wield or a second destro staff on the back bar.

2. Please bring mages wrath in line with every other execute. It doesn't compare to any others in damage, or where the execute triggers.

Natas013

Minalan wrote: »

Fixes to look into:

1. Please make dark deal an instant we can cast on the run, so we can use dual wield or a second destro staff on the back bar.

2. Please bring mages wrath in line with every other execute. It doesn't compare to any others in damage, or where the execute triggers.

1. Instant cast would only work if they could tie the secondary resource return to regen. I'm not sure how easy that would be to balance that in a way that satisfies everyone.

2. I can't speak mages wrath as I run endless fury. The damage on that morph seems fine, once you factor in disintegrate, considering it's ranged. The resource return and range could use a buff though. We can't all have an insanely OP execute, I'm looking at you Jesus beam. On secocnd thought make ours a channel in the same range. I want Jesus storm

Neowit

.

Neowit

Natas013 wrote: »

I want Jesus storm

Then people will be sending Wrobel death threats over Jesus Storm spam.

XaXa

If we got a channeled shock execute (like that one move in skyrim) that had the exact same tooltip as RD everyone would cry for nerfs. Even the templars.

Minalan

XaXa wrote: »

If we got a channeled shock execute (like that one move in skyrim) that had the exact same tooltip as RD everyone would cry for nerfs. Even the templars.

Because only one class can have a great DPS move and insane heals.

Oh wait, we get neither.