Official Feedback Thread for Templars

maxjapank

danno8 wrote: »

The point is that if Templar has to be so anchored in place to get the same buff, there should be a whole lot more than just some magicka or minor protection. Major Protection would be good, considering the size of the rune, and that could wear off right away if you leave the rune.

This would be a terrible idea. When running and casting, the rune is often two steps behind you. You would never get any use out of it. As it is now, you can cast and the buff sticks with you for 8 secs. Let's work on increasing the time and/or buffing passive and other spells.

cazlonb16_ESO

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

An often overlooked fact is that Sun Shield only lasts for 6s while Hardened Ward lasts over 3x as long and still scales off of a primary stat. The 6s duration is as much of a problem as the fact that is scales off of health.

While both Blazing Shield and Hardened Ward are shields, their purposes are different. HW is a purely defensive tool while BS is an offensive/defensive hybrid. HW you cast preemptively, BS in battle. You want it to expire quickly, so you can time its damage.

So initially there actually was some solid reasoning behind the difference in duration. In the current environment ( and for the Radiant Ward morph in general ) that's not true anymore of course.

dodgehopper_ESO

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

An often overlooked fact is that Sun Shield only lasts for 6s while Hardened Ward lasts over 3x as long and still scales off of a primary stat. The 6s duration is as much of a problem as the fact that is scales off of health.

While both Blazing Shield and Hardened Ward are shields, their purposes are different. HW is a purely defensive tool while BS is an offensive/defensive hybrid. HW you cast preemptively, BS in battle. You want it to expire quickly, so you can time its damage.

So initially there actually was some solid reasoning behind the difference in duration. In the current environment ( and for the Radiant Ward morph in general ) that's not true anymore of course.

The reason it becomes comparatively problematic is that the Shield+Damage are both pathetic on Blazing Shield. The same can not be said of Boundless Storm + Hardened Ward.

Joy_Division

maxjapank wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

@maxjapank - If I want to compete in PvE trials, I have to maximize my magicka pool. So when I come to PvP, my health is going to be low because I am not respecing my character every day. Thus, it is not fair for ZoS to scale stuff off of my health. That's what I meant. Hope this clears it up

I understand about not wanting to respec your character. But you can have one set of gear for PvE and one set for PvP. You can even glyph for health if need be on your PvP gear. I think PvE and PvP are two separate playstyles, at least for Templars. And you just cannot treat them the same.

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

I guess I don't like extremes because they don't provide an accurate picture of the average player. 21k health is just way too low. The average Templar and player should have at least 25k health imo, in which case Blazing Shield will be higher. This still is too low and I fully support a buff to Blazing Shield. But I think basing feedback on the average values of players is more beneficial.

Joy_Division wrote: »

As for the breath of life parses, those were the secondary heals, not the primary one on me. Usually my secondary heals are about 4K. It was a mobile situation so no focused healing passive. The heals weren't crits. I don't know. It is what it is. The combat log does not lie. A lot of folks upset with healing seem to think when I hit the breath of life button a bunch of 15K heals just magically appear. It doesn't work that way.

I figured those were secondary heals, but even so, it still is an extreme example of a very low BoLs. And just as you say that a lot of folks think that BoL instantly produces 15k heals...it just isn't true.

Joy_Division wrote: »

I think it is good you are trying to find some explanation for these results that derive from something other than templar mechanics. It's an absolute prerequisite for objective analysis. All the variables have to be considered. However, I feel confident that what I wrote and the screenshots took are representative of stuff that happens every night in Cyrodiil. I do not think templars have a toolkit that gives them the defensive and resource management options needed to stay in their "house" and contend with the damage and other means of attack they will face in the next patch.

I agree with this statement. Templars do need more, especially with some of the passives. But I think some of the players here are over-exaggerating about the "house" thing.

I use Rune Focus extensiviely in Pvp to keep my damage mitigation buffs up. And there is a big difference in incoming damage when I let this buff fall off. If you are running around in a zerg, you will likely not feel the difference. But in smaller group play, you really need to balance yourself between attacking and keeping defensive buffs up. In 5L/2H, I am at 33k spell resistance and 27k physical resistance. So yes..I am an extreme case so not a good representation of the average Templar. I am mostly a healer as well...but I also help attack when I can.

I don't think some Templars are used to playing with Rune Focus for the purpose of keeping the spell and phys buffs up. I am so used to putting it down and moving in and out of it that nothing in this patch changes how I play. I am used to keeping those buffs up for 8 secs...and planting a new one down when I need to move further away.

But here is the thing that I don't agree with. In order to be more successful in pvp, Templars are going to have to use Rune Focus and get used to playing with those 8 secs. You really do not have a choice. You must have this skill on your bar. You are forced to choose this skill because it is that good and you will suffer if you don't have it. And....8 secs is still a bit restrictive for many players.

If Sun Shield was better, it would allow Templars to make a choice. But it's not. So I am again very supportive of buffing Sun Shield to allow more freedom in gameplay. But...let's try to get a better representation of the average pvp players stats, rather than working with extremes.

Anyways..this is just my two cents...and no need to respond. But thank you for replying to me. Cheers

Hmm....

My spec is not average? .... It is "below" then? It's not my ego that taking a bruise. Oh no. But I have managed to put a lot of NA players on my kill counter that got there from what you deem an extremely low health, low healing build. Rather embarrassing for them, no?

We are run different builds, prioritize different areas, and look to do different things. But what I run does not merit distinction as being "extreme" or is so abnormal that it ought to be somehow excluded it from templar discussion.

I'm not looking to tank, or build a "house," or heal Pugs, I'm someone who tries to damage and kill other players. That means magicka. I'm hardly the only templar with that objective, even if ZoS makes that more difficult with every patch. And even if I was trying to do those things, I'd still try to run as low health as I could get away with because that attribute does nothing else. Health used to be cheap before 1.6, but that is not the case anymore and I am not atypical in holding to this philosophy. Most templars who lean to a DPS spec are going to do what I do and put magicka glyphs on their armor. I will grant that most players use food, however it's hardly noticeable when it comes to Sun Shield. If I use food and have an "average" health of 26K or what not, my sun shield is only increase by like 820. That is a negligible difference. It's not extreme.

The very fact that I run drinks and cannot rely on what is supposed to be my cornerstone defensive class ability as an alternative means to aid in my survivability is precisely what is wrong with the spell!

Also those secondary heals are not extremely low. Breath of Life is so overrated even a lot of templars are convinced it is better than it is. Consider:

• Templars healing strength is highly dependent on the focused Healing passive (neither was applicable in my screenshot), Target player (low) health (they were not at low health, I was), Critical (potentially a huge factor, mine weren't crits) and CPs (I have much more into damage).
• Here are the secondary breath of lifes I received in the last fight we had in my combat log. These are from dedicated healer builds and some of them received modifiers listed above that mine did not: 3797, 4593 (crit: taking away 50% modifier it become 3062),5427 (crit: -50% modifier it becomes 3618), 3754, 3332, 3630, 6262 (crit: -50% modifier 4174).
• These were from dedicated healers, I have 20 CPs points into healing received, we wiped that fight so I was often at low health and thus receiving positive modifiers. How are my heals, which are only a few hundred less and do not have the benefit of the bonuses they were getting and coming from a non-healer build, "extremely low"?
• Or are they in fact normal but seem low because they did not crit, were not modified by anything, and run counter to the growing perception among PvP players that Templars are overhealing?

It's very difficult to create a build that does everything without any holes or weaknesses. Where it appears that it might be lacking in one respect is (usually) counter-balanced somewhere else. If I do not devote enough resources into health that you deem wise, that is because they are devoted elsewhere that might not be apparent looking at my health bar or what an unmodified secondary heal does.

Indeed I was shocked when I saw a video of what is probably one of the better, if the not the best, healer/raid leads on the NA server and he had a mere 24K magicka. 24! How does he do it? Dunno, but obviously he does. And very well. So who am I to judge? We can't just throw his templar out as a case-study because it isn't typical. On the contrary, his templar deserves more recognition because it succeeds while going against the grain.

I think it is more important to focus on the consistency of our experiences despite the differences in builds, approaches, and play-styles that we have. If you, me, the 24K raid leader, Cinbri, all of us, etc. are all pretty much saying the same thing, isn't that a sign the problems are not in the perceived flaws in our builds, rather stuff about templars that ought to be fixed?

SeptimusDova

Joy , Max has never had to fight you. And anyone who has will never forget the azz beatings you dish out. I would laugh at meth with his dk attempts to break my shield or burn down my heals. Or at any other 5 peeps trying to do the same. 30 minutes of fighting Blinxey and bishop nonstop at Sejanus they under estimated the build.Anytime I saw you and Rosie I knew it was lights out if I did not put space between us.

Rosie liked to stun and interrupt with streak and would throw in a splash of Invasion and a pinch of Shard.

Max looking at numbers on the three bars is a sure way to underestimate your opponent. Especially one that lives in PVP. Hell I think Joy goes to a PVP university.

Max, the same with other PVP veterans. When you see numbers that are different take that as a cue and a clue that you are facing a unique build and one that may play vastly different than your OODA loop can process.

What ever happened to 100KHP he was the Templar with well 100khp and would smoke with the shield? Never seen him/her after IC.

Dont know if I ever fought Cinbri I might have I would have to see if I have any old screenshots saved from 1.0.1.3 to 1.6

Cinbri

@Minno
With time left till live i think we should ask only to fix templar worst's aspect - sustain, and since Templar don't have abilities to return stamina, i suggesting 1-2 of those 3 requests(we all should understand that they won't make tons of changes in just 2 weeks till live), each of it will give sugnificant improvement of templar sustain:
1. Sun Shield - Wrobel told it won't be fixed till Update 10: there is no reason to waste time on proposing any changes regarding regarding percentage, etc., so i suggested to revamp one of the morphs: Radiant Ward, this change will help both PvE and PvP:

Cinbri wrote: »

a. to remove such problems as percentage skills in PvP and shieldstacking problem, revamp Radiant Ward to work like: self-buff for 20 seconds that will grant Major Evasion buff(20%) and will have additional effect to help with sustain:

• every dodge grants returns 1000 stamina to caster.

It should help sustain in both PvE and PvP and will negate fact that templar as tanking class without active stamina returns. Also in compare with Blinding Flashes - it 50% miss chance but only for melee 5m, while Evasion grants 20% to both melee and range. For magicka templars stamina based Evasion is stamina-drainer cos high cost, and stamplars are worst stamina-based class coz lack of sustain and also have only couple magicka skills to waste mana on.
To further comparison we can compare it with old Black Rose that had 20% of 900 stamina return upon block:
unbuffed block cost 1730 stamina, and to restore 900 stamina you must waste at least 6920 block stamina, same with dodge effect - it won't make you to dadge instantly vs 1 target and make you unkillable but each 1 more enemy will slightly increase chances to survive, also unlike Blinding Flashes, dodge not proccing on AoE dd skills. So for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU9Ng9NOd2E

As you can see vs 8 targets 20 sec dodge-buff gave only 9 dodges: 9k stamina in 20 seconds vs 8 enemies, it equal to 900 stamina regen for 20 sec only while being already heavily outnumbered. To compare to dk Helping Hands passive with ~15k stamina = 750 stamina returns, in addition to Battle Roar passive effectiveness you can see on video i linked above from WGT.
This change will allow to invest more resources into offense, not just stuck as much defense as possible and have 0 damage outpoot.

It won't be OP in 1v1 and in 1vX it will increase survivability for each additional enemy. Like NB with siphoning attacks - it is strong enough in 1v1 and in 1vX it becoming even more stronger. Nightblade have dodge buff and resource return ability, in compare with him templar can't for example hold block as long as nb in PvE; check my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfSK7vJio08
More enemies=more procs=more resource returns

2. One of the most useless Dawn Wrath skills - Eclipse; take idea of @Solariken, this change will help mostly PvP but it not require much theorycrafting, just check of how good dk Scales works, also it is easy to implement.

Cinbri wrote: »

"Surround yourself with the Void(we already have "dark" version of skill - Dark Flare) that absorb 4 incoming projectile and have bonus based on % of absorbed projectile(like small amount of stamina return)", like Absorb Magick morph, but unique. ZOS don't need even to create some new mechanic, they could take it from Absorb Magick morph; same with visual effect - floating shadows that previously used for Total Dark morph, it easily visible and opponent will understand why his damage not reaching target; it is easy to do in 2 left weeks. No secret that stamplars are spamming Cleansing Ritual to purify projectiles, so this change will be usefull for both magicka templars and stamplars.

Why we need it:
1. ZOS must realise that almost noone use Eclipse
2. ZOS must realize that after nerf even less people will use Eclipse
3. Once again they must realize that with new meta after people will realize that stacking on enemy = 1 shot by Detonation, they will split up and start using all kinds of ranged skill, so we will see much more snipers. And we all know who will be picked as easiest target - our "hold-your-home" class, that in fact can't hold anything and we will just die after tons of snipes on us.

Any of those 2 changes will take niche of Sun Shield that was our defense previously but not serving its role anymore
3. Most easy change - remove CC from Luminous Shards and allow it to have unique synnergy that can be activated by own caster, (or make Solar Barrage to return some amount of stamina for each affected enemy). This change will help both PvE and PvP and easily can be implemented.
4. Light Weaver should restore ult points upon healing below 60% to caster. Templar don't have very strong ult and this change at least will allow him to use them more often. Like NB got improved passive that grants ult upon potions and literally equal to 2.25 ult/sec passive.

---

Those 4 easily achievable suggestions is all I can think now about. They answered all aspects of skills that Wrobel talked about on eso live: a. unique skill. b. easy implementable skill. c.not granting user god-mode d. since templars left without any single defensive skill, one of those should be implemented to play role of defense.

Delsskia

So here we are, 50 pages of consensus opinions from folks who actually play the class and not a peep from the devs. It's actually kind of mind numbing how so many people, who actually want to support ZOS, can be so ignored. At the very least, I'd love a response trying to explain why the game is getting more mobile with every patch, yet Templars are getting more stationary while being denied the tools to make us a force as an immobile target. Really, any kind of acknowledgement would be nice at this point.

Chelos

Not to mention that the bow thread gets a comment on page 2 already...
Makes you feel really appreciated...
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2708612/#Comment_2708612

tinythinker

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

An often overlooked fact is that Sun Shield only lasts for 6s while Hardened Ward lasts over 3x as long and still scales off of a primary stat. The 6s duration is as much of a problem as the fact that is scales off of health.

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

An often overlooked fact is that Sun Shield only lasts for 6s while Hardened Ward lasts over 3x as long and still scales off of a primary stat. The 6s duration is as much of a problem as the fact that is scales off of health.

While both Blazing Shield and Hardened Ward are shields, their purposes are different. HW is a purely defensive tool while BS is an offensive/defensive hybrid. HW you cast preemptively, BS in battle. You want it to expire quickly, so you can time its damage.

So initially there actually was some solid reasoning behind the difference in duration. In the current environment ( and for the Radiant Ward morph in general ) that's not true anymore of course.

Yes, with some simple modification Sun Shield could be much more useful in PvP/PvE with the 6 second duration as an asset.

Minno

Cinbri wrote: »

@Minno
With time left till live i think we should ask only to fix templar worst's aspect - sustain, and since Templar don't have abilities to return stamina, i suggesting 1-2 of those 3 requests(we all should understand that they won't make tons of changes in just 2 weeks till live), each of it will give sugnificant improvement of templar sustain:
1. Sun Shield - Wrobel told it won't be fixed till Update 10: there is no reason to waste time on proposing any changes regarding regarding percentage, etc., so i suggested to revamp one of the morphs: Radiant Ward, this change will help both PvE and PvP:

Cinbri wrote: »

a. to remove such problems as percentage skills in PvP and shieldstacking problem, revamp Radiant Ward to work like: self-buff for 20 seconds that will grant Major Evasion buff(20%) and will have additional effect to help with sustain:

• every dodge grants returns 1000 stamina to caster.

It should help sustain in both PvE and PvP and will negate fact that templar as tanking class without active stamina returns. Also in compare with Blinding Flashes - it 50% miss chance but only for melee 5m, while Evasion grants 20% to both melee and range. For magicka templars stamina based Evasion is stamina-drainer cos high cost, and stamplars are worst stamina-based class coz lack of sustain and also have only couple magicka skills to waste mana on.
To further comparison we can compare it with old Black Rose that had 20% of 900 stamina return upon block:
unbuffed block cost 1730 stamina, and to restore 900 stamina you must waste at least 6920 block stamina, same with dodge effect - it won't make you to dadge instantly vs 1 target and make you unkillable but each 1 more enemy will slightly increase chances to survive, also unlike Blinding Flashes, dodge not proccing on AoE dd skills. So for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU9Ng9NOd2E

As you can see vs 8 targets 20 sec dodge-buff gave only 9 dodges: 9k stamina in 20 seconds vs 8 enemies, it equal to 900 stamina regen for 20 sec only while being already heavily outnumbered. To compare to dk Helping Hands passive with ~15k stamina = 750 stamina returns, in addition to Battle Roar passive effectiveness you can see on video i linked above from WGT.
This change will allow to invest more resources into offense, not just stuck as much defense as possible and have 0 damage outpoot.

It won't be OP in 1v1 and in 1vX it will increase survivability for each additional enemy. Like NB with siphoning attacks - it is strong enough in 1v1 and in 1vX it becoming even more stronger. Nightblade have dodge buff and resource return ability, in compare with him templar can't for example hold block as long as nb in PvE; check my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfSK7vJio08
More enemies=more procs=more resource returns

2. One of the most useless Dawn Wrath skills - Eclipse; take idea of @Solariken, this change will help mostly PvP but it not require much theorycrafting, just check of how good dk Scales works, also it is easy to implement.

Cinbri wrote: »

"Surround yourself with the Void(we already have "dark" version of skill - Dark Flare) that absorb 4 incoming projectile and have bonus based on % of absorbed projectile(like small amount of stamina return)", like Absorb Magick morph, but unique. ZOS don't need even to create some new mechanic, they could take it from Absorb Magick morph; same with visual effect - floating shadows that previously used for Total Dark morph, it easily visible and opponent will understand why his damage not reaching target; it is easy to do in 2 left weeks. No secret that stamplars are spamming Cleansing Ritual to purify projectiles, so this change will be usefull for both magicka templars and stamplars.

Why we need it:
1. ZOS must realise that almost noone use Eclipse
2. ZOS must realize that after nerf even less people will use Eclipse
3. Once again they must realize that with new meta after people will realize that stacking on enemy = 1 shot by Detonation, they will split up and start using all kinds of ranged skill, so we will see much more snipers. And we all know who will be picked as easiest target - our "hold-your-home" class, that in fact can't hold anything and we will just die after tons of snipes on us.

Any of those 2 changes will take niche of Sun Shield that was our defense previously but not serving its role anymore
3. Most easy change - remove CC from Luminous Shards and allow it to have unique synnergy that can be activated by own caster, (or make Solar Barrage to return some amount of stamina for each affected enemy). This change will help both PvE and PvP and easily can be implemented.
4. Light Weaver should restore ult points upon healing below 60% to caster. Templar don't have very strong ult and this change at least will allow him to use them more often. Like NB got improved passive that grants ult upon potions and literally equal to 2.25 ult/sec passive.

---

Those 4 easily achievable suggestions is all I can think now about. They answered all aspects of skills that Wrobel talked about on eso live: a. unique skill. b. easy implementable skill. c.not granting user god-mode d. since templars left without any single defensive skill, one of those should be implemented to play role of defense.

I'll take those changes and concentrate on sustain if it means they can get it in before live hits.

tinythinker

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@Minno
With time left till live i think we should ask only to fix templar worst's aspect - sustain, and since Templar don't have abilities to return stamina, i suggesting 1-2 of those 3 requests(we all should understand that they won't make tons of changes in just 2 weeks till live), each of it will give sugnificant improvement of templar sustain:
1. Sun Shield - Wrobel told it won't be fixed till Update 10: there is no reason to waste time on proposing any changes regarding regarding percentage, etc., so i suggested to revamp one of the morphs: Radiant Ward, this change will help both PvE and PvP:

Cinbri wrote: »

a. to remove such problems as percentage skills in PvP and shieldstacking problem, revamp Radiant Ward to work like: self-buff for 20 seconds that will grant Major Evasion buff(20%) and will have additional effect to help with sustain:

• every dodge grants returns 1000 stamina to caster.

It should help sustain in both PvE and PvP and will negate fact that templar as tanking class without active stamina returns. Also in compare with Blinding Flashes - it 50% miss chance but only for melee 5m, while Evasion grants 20% to both melee and range. For magicka templars stamina based Evasion is stamina-drainer cos high cost, and stamplars are worst stamina-based class coz lack of sustain and also have only couple magicka skills to waste mana on.
To further comparison we can compare it with old Black Rose that had 20% of 900 stamina return upon block:
unbuffed block cost 1730 stamina, and to restore 900 stamina you must waste at least 6920 block stamina, same with dodge effect - it won't make you to dadge instantly vs 1 target and make you unkillable but each 1 more enemy will slightly increase chances to survive, also unlike Blinding Flashes, dodge not proccing on AoE dd skills. So for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU9Ng9NOd2E

As you can see vs 8 targets 20 sec dodge-buff gave only 9 dodges: 9k stamina in 20 seconds vs 8 enemies, it equal to 900 stamina regen for 20 sec only while being already heavily outnumbered. To compare to dk Helping Hands passive with ~15k stamina = 750 stamina returns, in addition to Battle Roar passive effectiveness you can see on video i linked above from WGT.
This change will allow to invest more resources into offense, not just stuck as much defense as possible and have 0 damage outpoot.

It won't be OP in 1v1 and in 1vX it will increase survivability for each additional enemy. Like NB with siphoning attacks - it is strong enough in 1v1 and in 1vX it becoming even more stronger. Nightblade have dodge buff and resource return ability, in compare with him templar can't for example hold block as long as nb in PvE; check my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfSK7vJio08
More enemies=more procs=more resource returns

2. One of the most useless Dawn Wrath skills - Eclipse; take idea of @Solariken, this change will help mostly PvP but it not require much theorycrafting, just check of how good dk Scales works, also it is easy to implement.

Cinbri wrote: »

"Surround yourself with the Void(we already have "dark" version of skill - Dark Flare) that absorb 4 incoming projectile and have bonus based on % of absorbed projectile(like small amount of stamina return)", like Absorb Magick morph, but unique. ZOS don't need even to create some new mechanic, they could take it from Absorb Magick morph; same with visual effect - floating shadows that previously used for Total Dark morph, it easily visible and opponent will understand why his damage not reaching target; it is easy to do in 2 left weeks. No secret that stamplars are spamming Cleansing Ritual to purify projectiles, so this change will be usefull for both magicka templars and stamplars.

Why we need it:
1. ZOS must realise that almost noone use Eclipse
2. ZOS must realize that after nerf even less people will use Eclipse
3. Once again they must realize that with new meta after people will realize that stacking on enemy = 1 shot by Detonation, they will split up and start using all kinds of ranged skill, so we will see much more snipers. And we all know who will be picked as easiest target - our "hold-your-home" class, that in fact can't hold anything and we will just die after tons of snipes on us.

Any of those 2 changes will take niche of Sun Shield that was our defense previously but not serving its role anymore
3. Most easy change - remove CC from Luminous Shards and allow it to have unique synnergy that can be activated by own caster, (or make Solar Barrage to return some amount of stamina for each affected enemy). This change will help both PvE and PvP and easily can be implemented.
4. Light Weaver should restore ult points upon healing below 60% to caster. Templar don't have very strong ult and this change at least will allow him to use them more often. Like NB got improved passive that grants ult upon potions and literally equal to 2.25 ult/sec passive.

---

Those 4 easily achievable suggestions is all I can think now about. They answered all aspects of skills that Wrobel talked about on eso live: a. unique skill. b. easy implementable skill. c.not granting user god-mode d. since templars left without any single defensive skill, one of those should be implemented to play role of defense.

I'll take those changes and concentrate on sustain if it means they can get it in before live hits.

Realistically you might get another 1% increase to the shield per hit for Radiant Ward. That list is too long/involved to be in for March 7th, and besides, I think they will want to see how existing changes play out with the larger player base on live before going in for more modifications.

Minno

tinythinker wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@Minno
With time left till live i think we should ask only to fix templar worst's aspect - sustain, and since Templar don't have abilities to return stamina, i suggesting 1-2 of those 3 requests(we all should understand that they won't make tons of changes in just 2 weeks till live), each of it will give sugnificant improvement of templar sustain:
1. Sun Shield - Wrobel told it won't be fixed till Update 10: there is no reason to waste time on proposing any changes regarding regarding percentage, etc., so i suggested to revamp one of the morphs: Radiant Ward, this change will help both PvE and PvP:

Cinbri wrote: »

a. to remove such problems as percentage skills in PvP and shieldstacking problem, revamp Radiant Ward to work like: self-buff for 20 seconds that will grant Major Evasion buff(20%) and will have additional effect to help with sustain:

• every dodge grants returns 1000 stamina to caster.

It should help sustain in both PvE and PvP and will negate fact that templar as tanking class without active stamina returns. Also in compare with Blinding Flashes - it 50% miss chance but only for melee 5m, while Evasion grants 20% to both melee and range. For magicka templars stamina based Evasion is stamina-drainer cos high cost, and stamplars are worst stamina-based class coz lack of sustain and also have only couple magicka skills to waste mana on.
To further comparison we can compare it with old Black Rose that had 20% of 900 stamina return upon block:
unbuffed block cost 1730 stamina, and to restore 900 stamina you must waste at least 6920 block stamina, same with dodge effect - it won't make you to dadge instantly vs 1 target and make you unkillable but each 1 more enemy will slightly increase chances to survive, also unlike Blinding Flashes, dodge not proccing on AoE dd skills. So for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU9Ng9NOd2E

As you can see vs 8 targets 20 sec dodge-buff gave only 9 dodges: 9k stamina in 20 seconds vs 8 enemies, it equal to 900 stamina regen for 20 sec only while being already heavily outnumbered. To compare to dk Helping Hands passive with ~15k stamina = 750 stamina returns, in addition to Battle Roar passive effectiveness you can see on video i linked above from WGT.
This change will allow to invest more resources into offense, not just stuck as much defense as possible and have 0 damage outpoot.

It won't be OP in 1v1 and in 1vX it will increase survivability for each additional enemy. Like NB with siphoning attacks - it is strong enough in 1v1 and in 1vX it becoming even more stronger. Nightblade have dodge buff and resource return ability, in compare with him templar can't for example hold block as long as nb in PvE; check my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfSK7vJio08
More enemies=more procs=more resource returns

2. One of the most useless Dawn Wrath skills - Eclipse; take idea of @Solariken, this change will help mostly PvP but it not require much theorycrafting, just check of how good dk Scales works, also it is easy to implement.

Cinbri wrote: »

"Surround yourself with the Void(we already have "dark" version of skill - Dark Flare) that absorb 4 incoming projectile and have bonus based on % of absorbed projectile(like small amount of stamina return)", like Absorb Magick morph, but unique. ZOS don't need even to create some new mechanic, they could take it from Absorb Magick morph; same with visual effect - floating shadows that previously used for Total Dark morph, it easily visible and opponent will understand why his damage not reaching target; it is easy to do in 2 left weeks. No secret that stamplars are spamming Cleansing Ritual to purify projectiles, so this change will be usefull for both magicka templars and stamplars.

Why we need it:
1. ZOS must realise that almost noone use Eclipse
2. ZOS must realize that after nerf even less people will use Eclipse
3. Once again they must realize that with new meta after people will realize that stacking on enemy = 1 shot by Detonation, they will split up and start using all kinds of ranged skill, so we will see much more snipers. And we all know who will be picked as easiest target - our "hold-your-home" class, that in fact can't hold anything and we will just die after tons of snipes on us.

Any of those 2 changes will take niche of Sun Shield that was our defense previously but not serving its role anymore
3. Most easy change - remove CC from Luminous Shards and allow it to have unique synnergy that can be activated by own caster, (or make Solar Barrage to return some amount of stamina for each affected enemy). This change will help both PvE and PvP and easily can be implemented.
4. Light Weaver should restore ult points upon healing below 60% to caster. Templar don't have very strong ult and this change at least will allow him to use them more often. Like NB got improved passive that grants ult upon potions and literally equal to 2.25 ult/sec passive.

---

Those 4 easily achievable suggestions is all I can think now about. They answered all aspects of skills that Wrobel talked about on eso live: a. unique skill. b. easy implementable skill. c.not granting user god-mode d. since templars left without any single defensive skill, one of those should be implemented to play role of defense.

I'll take those changes and concentrate on sustain if it means they can get it in before live hits.

Realistically you might get another 1% increase to the shield per hit for Radiant Ward. That list is too long/involved to be in for March 7th, and besides, I think they will want to see how existing changes play out with the larger player base on live before going in for more modifications.

Sad really. So many of these threads existed a couple of months ago; I'm not a developer but I don't think it's farfetch of me to assume it shouldn't take 3 months to implement changes to a class that's been requesting heavy review for the past year.

Cinbri

tinythinker wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

@Minno
With time left till live i think we should ask only to fix templar worst's aspect - sustain, and since Templar don't have abilities to return stamina, i suggesting 1-2 of those 3 requests(we all should understand that they won't make tons of changes in just 2 weeks till live), each of it will give sugnificant improvement of templar sustain:
1. Sun Shield - Wrobel told it won't be fixed till Update 10: there is no reason to waste time on proposing any changes regarding regarding percentage, etc., so i suggested to revamp one of the morphs: Radiant Ward, this change will help both PvE and PvP:

Cinbri wrote: »

a. to remove such problems as percentage skills in PvP and shieldstacking problem, revamp Radiant Ward to work like: self-buff for 20 seconds that will grant Major Evasion buff(20%) and will have additional effect to help with sustain:

• every dodge grants returns 1000 stamina to caster.

It should help sustain in both PvE and PvP and will negate fact that templar as tanking class without active stamina returns. Also in compare with Blinding Flashes - it 50% miss chance but only for melee 5m, while Evasion grants 20% to both melee and range. For magicka templars stamina based Evasion is stamina-drainer cos high cost, and stamplars are worst stamina-based class coz lack of sustain and also have only couple magicka skills to waste mana on.
To further comparison we can compare it with old Black Rose that had 20% of 900 stamina return upon block:
unbuffed block cost 1730 stamina, and to restore 900 stamina you must waste at least 6920 block stamina, same with dodge effect - it won't make you to dadge instantly vs 1 target and make you unkillable but each 1 more enemy will slightly increase chances to survive, also unlike Blinding Flashes, dodge not proccing on AoE dd skills. So for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EU9Ng9NOd2E

As you can see vs 8 targets 20 sec dodge-buff gave only 9 dodges: 9k stamina in 20 seconds vs 8 enemies, it equal to 900 stamina regen for 20 sec only while being already heavily outnumbered. To compare to dk Helping Hands passive with ~15k stamina = 750 stamina returns, in addition to Battle Roar passive effectiveness you can see on video i linked above from WGT.
This change will allow to invest more resources into offense, not just stuck as much defense as possible and have 0 damage outpoot.

It won't be OP in 1v1 and in 1vX it will increase survivability for each additional enemy. Like NB with siphoning attacks - it is strong enough in 1v1 and in 1vX it becoming even more stronger. Nightblade have dodge buff and resource return ability, in compare with him templar can't for example hold block as long as nb in PvE; check my video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfSK7vJio08
More enemies=more procs=more resource returns

2. One of the most useless Dawn Wrath skills - Eclipse; take idea of @Solariken, this change will help mostly PvP but it not require much theorycrafting, just check of how good dk Scales works, also it is easy to implement.

Cinbri wrote: »

"Surround yourself with the Void(we already have "dark" version of skill - Dark Flare) that absorb 4 incoming projectile and have bonus based on % of absorbed projectile(like small amount of stamina return)", like Absorb Magick morph, but unique. ZOS don't need even to create some new mechanic, they could take it from Absorb Magick morph; same with visual effect - floating shadows that previously used for Total Dark morph, it easily visible and opponent will understand why his damage not reaching target; it is easy to do in 2 left weeks. No secret that stamplars are spamming Cleansing Ritual to purify projectiles, so this change will be usefull for both magicka templars and stamplars.

Why we need it:
1. ZOS must realise that almost noone use Eclipse
2. ZOS must realize that after nerf even less people will use Eclipse
3. Once again they must realize that with new meta after people will realize that stacking on enemy = 1 shot by Detonation, they will split up and start using all kinds of ranged skill, so we will see much more snipers. And we all know who will be picked as easiest target - our "hold-your-home" class, that in fact can't hold anything and we will just die after tons of snipes on us.

Any of those 2 changes will take niche of Sun Shield that was our defense previously but not serving its role anymore
3. Most easy change - remove CC from Luminous Shards and allow it to have unique synnergy that can be activated by own caster, (or make Solar Barrage to return some amount of stamina for each affected enemy). This change will help both PvE and PvP and easily can be implemented.
4. Light Weaver should restore ult points upon healing below 60% to caster. Templar don't have very strong ult and this change at least will allow him to use them more often. Like NB got improved passive that grants ult upon potions and literally equal to 2.25 ult/sec passive.

---

Those 4 easily achievable suggestions is all I can think now about. They answered all aspects of skills that Wrobel talked about on eso live: a. unique skill. b. easy implementable skill. c.not granting user god-mode d. since templars left without any single defensive skill, one of those should be implemented to play role of defense.

I'll take those changes and concentrate on sustain if it means they can get it in before live hits.

Realistically you might get another 1% increase to the shield per hit for Radiant Ward. That list is too long/involved to be in for March 7th, and besides, I think they will want to see how existing changes play out with the larger player base on live before going in for more modifications.

I asking to buff only one thing from my 1-3 list, ZOS must only pick up just 1 change they willing to do and implement it, I believe it is not hard, the only problem is their will to do it. But again, if ZOS glad how templar looks like with fact that after half of pts ended they got 50 pages of negative impressions and almost 1.5k comments on class...

Zheg

Chelos wrote: »

Not to mention that the bow thread gets a comment on page 2 already...
Makes you feel really appreciated...
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2708612/#Comment_2708612

Um, they didn't just get a comment, they got a development fix xD

Ffastyl

We have mentioned adding Major Resolve and Major Ward to Restoring Light passives so we receive them while standing in our runes and circles, but what about Major Evasion instead? Adding a Major Armor buff to the passives is mimicking Nightblade and also making Rune Focus redundant (unless its buff is changed to Minor/Major Protection or Major Evasion), adding Major Evasion instead gives Templars something effectively similar but unique to the class.

Also many of us who remember Blinding Light miss the passive evasion.

tinythinker

Ffastyl wrote: »

what about Major Evasion instead? .

That makes the Templar play different and homogenizes the classes.

staracino_ESO

I think the Prism passive would be a good place to revive the old Restoring Spirit.

Make it give 2/3 Ultimate, and 2/4% Health, Magicka and Stamina on Dawns Wrath ability; and it can keep the 6 second ICD.

Make Prism prismatic!

kaalmoth

Right now, I believe E.W. made a fool of himself with this house fantasy, but if he has good things in his sleeves to back it up, it's time to reveal a few, even if it's for the next updates (even if I think believing we can stay still in either pvp or pve is a big mistake).

Ishammael

I WANT TO ARGUE AND KEEP ARGUING FOREVER AND EVER AND EVER

Zheg

kaalmoth wrote: »

Right now, I believe E.W. made a fool of himself with this house fantasy, but if he has good things in his sleeves to back it up, it's time to reveal a few, even if it's for the next updates (even if I think believing we can stay still in either pvp or pve is a big mistake).

Waiting until the next update would be yet another colossal mistake. CU will be in beta by then, BDO will have launched, other games are on the horizon - it just won't matter. The fact that he thought it was a smart idea to identify and admit there are going to be glaring discrepancies between magicka and stamina in TG and that stamina needs to wait until DB demonstrates his utter lack of foresight and his flawed approach to balance. It was evident in the way that he said they only have 3 months to push out changes that they are oblivious to the pace almost all of their competitors are able to hold when it comes to balance. I'm glad I have my DK to v16 and rank 24, and I may even play my broken racial sorc as a magicka considering how stupidly strong shield stacking will be in TG.

I've played a lot of MMOs, had issues and disagreements with a few of the companies that manage them, but never have I cared enough to actually remember names until now. I will NEVER play another mmo where Eric Wrobel has a hand in combat, itemization, or class design.

kaalmoth

Zheg wrote: »

kaalmoth wrote: »

Right now, I believe E.W. made a fool of himself with this house fantasy, but if he has good things in his sleeves to back it up, it's time to reveal a few, even if it's for the next updates (even if I think believing we can stay still in either pvp or pve is a big mistake).

Waiting until the next update would be yet another colossal mistake. CU will be in beta by then, BDO will have launched, other games are on the horizon - it just won't matter. The fact that he thought it was a smart idea to identify and admit there are going to be glaring discrepancies between magicka and stamina in TG and that stamina needs to wait until DB demonstrates his utter lack of foresight and his flawed approach to balance. It was evident in the way that he said they only have 3 months to push out changes that they are oblivious to the pace almost all of their competitors are able to hold when it comes to balance. I'm glad I have my DK to v16 and rank 24, and I may even play my broken racial sorc as a magicka considering how stupidly strong shield stacking will be in TG.

I've played a lot of MMOs, had issues and disagreements with a few of the companies that manage them, but never have I cared enough to actually remember names until now. I will NEVER play another mmo where Eric Wrobel has a hand in combat, itemization, or class design.

Tbh, EW convinced me, Im gonna play a medic in the division. So yeah, TG is dead for me, and I think they are waaaaaaay too slow to do something usefull by the time its out. Look how much time they needed to remove CC from sweeps or to "fix" charge, or to fix dodgeable beam... So if they want some constructive feedback for future updates, they should start now.
We never know, if db brings a bit of creativity, I might come back!

Cinbri

kaalmoth wrote: »

Right now, I believe E.W. made a fool of himself with this house fantasy, but if he has good things in his sleeves to back it up, it's time to reveal a few, even if it's for the next updates (even if I think believing we can stay still in either pvp or pve is a big mistake).

Every update we waiting for templar buffs, and every update we get nothing...
Remember how promise of "place under the sun" ended?! We were nerfed to play healbots.

Essiaga

cazlonb16_ESO wrote: »

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

An often overlooked fact is that Sun Shield only lasts for 6s while Hardened Ward lasts over 3x as long and still scales off of a primary stat. The 6s duration is as much of a problem as the fact that is scales off of health.

While both Blazing Shield and Hardened Ward are shields, their purposes are different. HW is a purely defensive tool while BS is an offensive/defensive hybrid. HW you cast preemptively, BS in battle. You want it to expire quickly, so you can time its damage.

So initially there actually was some solid reasoning behind the difference in duration. In the current environment ( and for the Radiant Ward morph in general ) that's not true anymore of course.

I agree there are secondary benefits but a defensive skill should not be so preemptively cast or take so much damage that other shields need to suffer a nerf to make it closer to acceptable. Their shield last longer then our Resolve/Ward Buffs? The damage of Sun Shields is worth less in PVP but acceptable for PVE. So is the shield. I think the skill is balanced just fine, the problem is PVE and PVP are not balanced which comes down to one shield.

Hardened Ward is simply over the top, outrageously OP in PVE and therefore is even more so in PVP because the 2 are not comparable.

To kill a mob in a dungeon it might take 50-70k damage. To kill a player it takes 20-30k ... so Damaged is halved because an average rotation can easily put out 17k+ DPS. Now you usually face mobs in groups of 3+ and their doing little damage compared to players and are easily mitigated or burst down with AOE. If players were killed so easily in an environment as large as Cyrodiil I'd NEVER PVP because we'd ally be spending more time running back to battle after death then we anything.

Damage is halved. Healing is halved. Heath is increased. Mitigation remains the same. So why do shield decrease? I would say its not because a 7-8k Blazing Shield is popping for 3-4k AOE damage in Melee range. I would say its because a 20,000 PLUS shield that last for 20 seconds and can be cast multiple times with no diminishing returns is OP.

So Templar and DK shields get nerfed into uselessness because Hardened Ward is larger on a DPS character then it is on TANK of the same class ... It simply doesn't make sense. Removing caps and adding CP has improved Magicka Sorcs as much as it reduced DK currently on Live. CP changes will help to re-balance that a bit but I don't see the Templar benefiting much in those changes. Magicka DPS is bigger so Templars will just be that much weaker since we've been stripped of all our defenses and the change allow only 1 reflect makes the soon to be reverted buff to Dark Flare make us more like likely to kill our selves now that Cleansing Ritual has been 'fixed.'

The game is poorly balanced and the most obvious example is Hardened Ward. Is there a reason NOT to run this skill in PVP ... besides being a stam build? With caps you kind had to choose to Ward or Streak. Now you use both, mass stunning and drop CF, etc, while maximizing defense and mobility.

I don't believe the answer is basing all shields on Magicka. I think that will just perpetuate the problem. I think all shields need to based on Health with a Magicka Regen aspect to increase shields for Magicka builds over Stam builds. No one wants to see Stam-builds dropping WBs and Spinning to win with Vigor, while maintaining shields equal size of magicka builds while no longer needing to dodge roll or block, but we also don't want DPS out shielding Tanks x2.

It's ludicrous that Ward wasn't addressed when LA tanks were giggling their way through Dungeons in the first few months of the game, WITH CAPS IN PLACE!!! But such is ZOS.

Ffastyl

tinythinker wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

what about Major Evasion instead? .

That makes the Templar play different and homogenizes the classes.

How so when only Nightblades have inclass Major Evasion? Although that in of itself is cause for not granting Major Evasion if it is intended for only Nightblades to have it inclass. And another "although," Templar and Dragonknight used to have miss chance, which was a form of evasion.

So, how is giving Templars Major Evasion homogenization when neither Dragonknight or Sorcerer have it as well?

Nifty2g

WE NEED A SOURCE OF MAJOR BRUTALITY.
HAVE CRESENT SWEEP GRANT IT FFS @Wrobel

Mumyo

Nifty2g wrote: »

WE NEED A SOURCE OF MAJOR BRUTALITY.
HAVE CRESENT SWEEP GRANT IT FFS @Wrobel

Really? Why that?

Mumyo

Cinbri wrote: »

kaalmoth wrote: »

Right now, I believe E.W. made a fool of himself with this house fantasy, but if he has good things in his sleeves to back it up, it's time to reveal a few, even if it's for the next updates (even if I think believing we can stay still in either pvp or pve is a big mistake).

Every update we waiting for templar buffs, and every update we get nothing...
Remember how promise of "place under the sun" ended?! We were nerfed to play healbots.

TBH i think this time we got much. I am a 100% serious here, many buffs are not visible because they have their impact on us via champion system.
One thing i dislike, we still have to move our house to fight someone xD
In our house we might be ok but wihtout, we are nothing but a leaf in the wind, ahh i mean a brick in the dirt.

Essiaga

Nifty2g wrote: »

WE NEED A SOURCE OF MAJOR BRUTALITY.
HAVE CRESENT SWEEP GRANT IT FFS @Wrobel

I'd prefer Berserker on on Backlash, Eclipse, or when in our home. It gives us a reason to use the crap skills and sit still (like they want us to and that we obviously don't want).

Essiaga

Ffastyl wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

what about Major Evasion instead? .

That makes the Templar play different and homogenizes the classes.

How so when only Nightblades have inclass Major Evasion? Although that in of itself is cause for not granting Major Evasion if it is intended for only Nightblades to have it inclass. And another "although," Templar and Dragonknight used to have miss chance, which was a form of evasion.

So, how is giving Templars Major Evasion homogenization when neither Dragonknight or Sorcerer have it as well?

Giving the templars anything is homogenization. That how ZOS does things.

Roots? They got em.
AOE Roots? They got em
Insta Cast Skills? The got em
Hate Channels and Cast times? Give em to the templars
Mobility? They got them.
Passives that are worth a darn? They got them.
Brutality buff? They got them.
Powerful Group heal? with TG ... We ALL have them. Homogenization doesn't apply when giving to other classes. Just Templar.

The list could be longer but it doesn't matter. Templar is the class to leave out when not homogenizing.

Cinbri

Mumyo wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

kaalmoth wrote: »

Right now, I believe E.W. made a fool of himself with this house fantasy, but if he has good things in his sleeves to back it up, it's time to reveal a few, even if it's for the next updates (even if I think believing we can stay still in either pvp or pve is a big mistake).

Every update we waiting for templar buffs, and every update we get nothing...
Remember how promise of "place under the sun" ended?! We were nerfed to play healbots.

TBH i think this time we got much. I am a 100% serious here, many buffs are not visible because they have their impact on us via champion system.
One thing i dislike, we still have to move our house to fight someone xD
In our house we might be ok but wihtout, we are nothing but a leaf in the wind, ahh i mean a brick in the dirt.

Even our house looks like trash basket. But sucj changes like class Major Evasion could sugnificantly improve out defense.