Official Feedback Thread for Templars

Jura23

Templars like:

Minno

@Nifty2g @Joy_Division @Cinbri
I'm nominating you 3 to official Templar ambassadors. If the community agrees, then they will give the last say for what skills a Templar gets. They will of course help filter our ideas so that we aren't all over the place.

Once those ideas are finalized and we all agree these 3 should represent us, please send me the final design changes we want out of templars. Reason for sending me the changes? I'm assembling the main issues in a document for ZOS to review and for us to officially sign off on. (See below for a quick snapshot). This should help us focus our anger visually, as it should yellow below represents that our community and game reject the current Templar changes/playstyle.

TheM0rganism

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I'd like to say Update 6 was pretty much the most perfect update a Templar has had since launch. This includes PvE and PvP [...]

what @Wrobel said on ESOLive and what his newest vision was for Templars, making them a stable tank and welcoming people into their homes, and honestly it's making me want to stop playing this game altogether, because this whole game is about mobility [...]

ZOS are trying to remove the Templar mobility, this is focused around Rune Focus and it's morphs - this game is heavily mobile, the whole welcome to our house does not work, it never will - and further more, didn't we try to bury this toxic play style when we decided to nerf Dragonknights into the ground?

THIS. 100% signed.

The healing/rezzing nerfs will "only" seriosly harm PvE players trying to heal PUGs.
What finally could kill the Templar class for PvE and PvP is the mobility nerf.
PvP+PvE endgame content does not allow standing still and recasting circles again and again.

DKs already suffered an Exodus. Almost all my DK friends left the game or changed the class.
Result: It's almost impossible to find a DK Tank on consoles for a PUG.
ZOS now risk that Templars will be the next players on Exodus.
Will Sorcs and NBs be strong enough to carry the game in PvP and PvE alone?

Yes, they are. In fact sorcerers can do tank/dps/healer, while NB can tank/dps/heal... wait, they have all we need to clean the whole content in the game, and do it better than DK who are supposed to be tank, and templar who are supposed to be healers !? Yes ! ZOS logic...

I read it as will people accept playing the 2 classes. Don't forget that DK got some work to so I think they'll be improved and many people will see them as the fotm.

Only way I see people rolling a templar is if Dark Flare doesn't get nerfed. Beyond that I don't think we got what we needed to make us break even this patch. We're less able to 'stand our ground' which includes no more capable of tanking PVE.

ya i think fotm will be mag dk and/or mag sorc. mag is the min/max build until they adjust ability damages.

It's going to be Healer MagDKs. Mini-Barrier gonna be OP af

bikerangelo

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g @Joy_Division @Cinbri
I'm nominating you 3 to official Templar ambassadors. If the community agrees, then they will give the last say for what skills a Templar gets. They will of course help filter our ideas so that we aren't all over the place.

As cool as this sounds, the ambassador program is more of a glorified tour-guide position with a fancy title.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Our Community Ambassadors will be recognizable via a unique forum title and avatar, and will support the Community Team by suggesting ideas to strengthen and grow the community. Community Ambassadors will not have special access to communicate with the developers directly, and their game feedback will have the same weight as everyone else. Community Ambassadors will also not have tools to action other community members, and are not forum moderators.

Minno

bikerangelo wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g @Joy_Division @Cinbri
I'm nominating you 3 to official Templar ambassadors. If the community agrees, then they will give the last say for what skills a Templar gets. They will of course help filter our ideas so that we aren't all over the place.

As cool as this sounds, the ambassador program is more of a glorified tour-guide position with a fancy title.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Our Community Ambassadors will be recognizable via a unique forum title and avatar, and will support the Community Team by suggesting ideas to strengthen and grow the community. Community Ambassadors will not have special access to communicate with the developers directly, and their game feedback will have the same weight as everyone else. Community Ambassadors will also not have tools to action other community members, and are not forum moderators.

Correction: title changed to "Templar Inquisitors ". This is our own organizing separate from that ZOS implemented and deluded effort to keep us in check.

I want us to have a spear point to the changes we want. Wall of texts were proven time and time again to be misunderstood, forgotten or ignored.
I didn't want to spend my free time doing this, but it's clear no one at the developer level has a comprehensive spreadsheet for these changes.

Hiero_Glyph

Minno wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g @Joy_Division @Cinbri
I'm nominating you 3 to official Templar ambassadors. If the community agrees, then they will give the last say for what skills a Templar gets. They will of course help filter our ideas so that we aren't all over the place.

As cool as this sounds, the ambassador program is more of a glorified tour-guide position with a fancy title.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Our Community Ambassadors will be recognizable via a unique forum title and avatar, and will support the Community Team by suggesting ideas to strengthen and grow the community. Community Ambassadors will not have special access to communicate with the developers directly, and their game feedback will have the same weight as everyone else. Community Ambassadors will also not have tools to action other community members, and are not forum moderators.

Correction: title changed to "Templar Inquisitors ". This is our own organizing separate from that ZOS implemented and deluded effort to keep us in check.

I want us to have a spear point to the changes we want. Wall of texts were proven time and time again to be misunderstood, forgotten or ignored.
I didn't want to spend my free time doing this, but it's clear no one at the developer level has a comprehensive spreadsheet for these changes.

ZOS doesn't have time to read feedback, they are too busy watching all the streams to base their opinion on (since we all know they don't actually play a Templar).

Minno

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g @Joy_Division @Cinbri
I'm nominating you 3 to official Templar ambassadors. If the community agrees, then they will give the last say for what skills a Templar gets. They will of course help filter our ideas so that we aren't all over the place.

As cool as this sounds, the ambassador program is more of a glorified tour-guide position with a fancy title.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Our Community Ambassadors will be recognizable via a unique forum title and avatar, and will support the Community Team by suggesting ideas to strengthen and grow the community. Community Ambassadors will not have special access to communicate with the developers directly, and their game feedback will have the same weight as everyone else. Community Ambassadors will also not have tools to action other community members, and are not forum moderators.

Correction: title changed to "Templar Inquisitors ". This is our own organizing separate from that ZOS implemented and deluded effort to keep us in check.

I want us to have a spear point to the changes we want. Wall of texts were proven time and time again to be misunderstood, forgotten or ignored.
I didn't want to spend my free time doing this, but it's clear no one at the developer level has a comprehensive spreadsheet for these changes.

ZOS doesn't have time to read feedback, they are too busy watching all the streams to base their opinion on (since we all know they don't actually play a Templar).

What better place than one spreadsheet of the community approved changes? Seems we go off on tagents and either ZOS misses the good parts or just watches videos to save time.

FENGRUSH

Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

bikerangelo wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g @Joy_Division @Cinbri
I'm nominating you 3 to official Templar ambassadors. If the community agrees, then they will give the last say for what skills a Templar gets. They will of course help filter our ideas so that we aren't all over the place.

As cool as this sounds, the ambassador program is more of a glorified tour-guide position with a fancy title.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Our Community Ambassadors will be recognizable via a unique forum title and avatar, and will support the Community Team by suggesting ideas to strengthen and grow the community. Community Ambassadors will not have special access to communicate with the developers directly, and their game feedback will have the same weight as everyone else. Community Ambassadors will also not have tools to action other community members, and are not forum moderators.

Correction: title changed to "Templar Inquisitors ". This is our own organizing separate from that ZOS implemented and deluded effort to keep us in check.

I want us to have a spear point to the changes we want. Wall of texts were proven time and time again to be misunderstood, forgotten or ignored.
I didn't want to spend my free time doing this, but it's clear no one at the developer level has a comprehensive spreadsheet for these changes.

ZOS doesn't have time to read feedback, they are too busy watching all the streams to base their opinion on (since we all know they don't actually play a Templar).

I can confirm I played templar last night and I protected my house successfully!

nagarjunna

You misunderstand, @Minno is not nominating them to Official ZOS Community whatevers! He wants them to assist him and have the final say in the proposed adjustments to the class that we, the Templar community, would like to see!

Minno

nagarjunna wrote: »

You misunderstand, @Minno is not nominating them to Official ZOS Community whatevers! He wants them to assist him and have the final say in the proposed adjustments to the class that we, the Templar community, would like to see!

Lol yup. This is for us to help communicate to ZOS that gets lost in these threads.

Joy_Division

@Ffastyl - I do play magicka and always have. I try not to make too many suggestions for stamplars as I'm just as likely to mess up their stuff as I am to help them. I usually preface my templar threads saying I'm magicka and ask stamplers to fill in the holes I miss.

I do agree with you that if sun shield goes off magicka, then it removes any option stamplars have and makes us wanna be sorcerers. I think your suggestion of doubling the percentages would fix it for Cyrodiil but, yeah, probably would make it overpowered for PvE. I think we and ZoS can only find a band-aid measure at the moment because the root problem is that health is actually an attribute that many players try to run as low as possible.

I'd take any of these band-aids atm:

• Battlespirit does not effect this spell
• Scales off health or magicka, whichever is higher
• Keep small shield/damage return mechanic and add other defensive buffs
• Keep small shield/damage return mechanic and add in a health/resource return for caster proportional to damage done to shield. That strikes me as what a shield should do that is meant to be cast in combat as opposed to before.

@Cinbri - I did see your thread and hope the devs take a long look at it.

You seem to be optimistic about radial sweeps. Maybe. I still don't like its short range and tendency to miss targets. I know it's cheap and I know it was buffed, but I still think in 4 months more templars are using meteor/dawnbreaker than their own radial sweeps. I could be mistaken, we will see.

Everything else, yeah, looks like we see eye to eye and are just trying to find places where ZoS might actually be willing to fix/change stuff. And I think you Raidant ideas are legit interesting. I don't play on the EU server so never actually saw you play, but I can tell you make templars look good over there

@Solariken - Would get behind all of your suggestions. Agree, I want to luv javelin and it needs something else! Again, the Radiant thing is interesting. Common theme here ZoS, we can't just have a spell that duplicates a tri-stat potion.

@timidobserver - you are 100% correct in the devaluing of Master ritualist. Another example of ZoS taking away one of the little things we did that gave our class distinctiveness without giving us something in return.

@Essiaga - Yep, identity crisis is real.

@danno8 - I have never been able to unravel the heals from puncturing sweeps or the DK ability inhale. I know they are proportional to damage but sometimes both of those abilities give higher heals for reasons I cannot consistently duplicate. Something is weird about the ZoS algorithm for returning health in proportion to damage done. I trust other templars' testing when it comes to shields (@Nifty2g comes to mind) and tend to follow their lead. When it comes down to it, I will use puncturing sweep against any opponent I am matched up against shield or no because we have limtied ability slots and jabs is the skill I choose for my main attack. I just want to feel confident and assured it is working as the tooltip claims when I fight sorcerers.

@maxjapank - If I want to compete in PvE trials, I have to maximize my magicka pool. So when I come to PvP, my health is going to be low because I am not respecing my character every day. Thus, it is not fair for ZoS to scale stuff off of my health. That's what I meant. Hope this clears it up

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

As for the breath of life parses, those were the secondary heals, not the primary one on me. Usually my secondary heals are about 4K. It was a mobile situation so no focused healing passive. The heals weren't crits. I don't know. It is what it is. The combat log does not lie. A lot of folks upset with healing seem to think when I hit the breath of life button a bunch of 15K heals just magically appear. It doesn't work that way.

6 pieces of impenetrable. Damage is high and camo hunter is absurdly powerful - especially considering the vamp elusive mist form is so absurdly bad.

I think it is good you are trying to find some explanation for these results that derive from something other than templar mechanics. It's an absolute prerequisite for objective analysis. All the variables have to be considered. However, I feel confident that what I wrote and the screenshots took are representative of stuff that happens every night in Cyrodiil. I do not think templars have a toolkit that gives them the defensive and resource management options needed to stay in their "house" and contend with the damage and other means of attack they will face in the next patch.

@Minno - that's a pretty nifty document you got there! I think it's probably best for you just to compile the stuff we suggest in one place. Things are desperate for sure, but not quite at the point where we need the sort of position you propose haha. We got so many insightful posters and we agree on so many of the basic templar mechanics, what works, what doesn't, why it doesn't, etc., I believe there is something significant and convincing to hear/read so many voices/posts saying the pretty much the same thing. Of course, some sort of summary would be invaluable and just by glancing at your document there, that looks promising.

@ Everyone TY TY for the kind words.

I'll post my insights on Eclipse later, maybe tomorrow.

BalticBlues

Instead of only criticizing the now even more stationary gameplay via mandatory circles,
here my suggestion to make Healing Ritual worthwhile giving mobility:

One of the best skills of Sorcs is Boundless Storm:
Manifest yourself as lightning,
gain Major Resolve, Major Ward, Major Expedition
and shock nearby enemies for x every second.

Similarly, Healing Ritual could become one of the best skills for Templars:
Manifest yourself as Meridia's light,
gain Major Resolve, Major Ward, Major Expedition
and heal nearby allies and yourself for x every second.

Benefits:
- Templars finally had a way to become mobile
- Templars could replace a reactive skill with a proactive skill
- Templars could do more group damage if risking getting closer to fights (risk vs reward)
- Templars had a mobile alternative to using Rune Focus
- PvP balance would not be affected (enemies like visible Templars...)

Channeled Focus: gives Magicka and is stronger for healing (with Major Mending)
Healing Ritual: heals allies and is stronger for mobility (with Major Expedition)
This way players could use skills adapting to their playstyle (or even combine both skills).

There should be almost no coding requirements:
- ZOS could use the healing code of Purifying Light
- ZOS could use the graphics of Sorcs, replacing the blue color with a golden color

Finally: Please offer players two morphs, one using magicka, another one using stamina.
This way all Templars finally could have fun with mobility, Magplars and Stamplars.

Minno

@Joy_Division

Good point on the document! I'll revise and make it an offline document for compiling all the approved changes and keep it simple. I still would like a nominated few to give the final say to keep it organized and clear. One pvp Templar, one pve Templar, one overall Templar (both stam and mag) should be enough.

dodgehopper_ESO

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I'd like to say Update 6 was pretty much the most perfect update a Templar has had since launch. This includes PvE and PvP [...]

what @Wrobel said on ESOLive and what his newest vision was for Templars, making them a stable tank and welcoming people into their homes, and honestly it's making me want to stop playing this game altogether, because this whole game is about mobility [...]

ZOS are trying to remove the Templar mobility, this is focused around Rune Focus and it's morphs - this game is heavily mobile, the whole welcome to our house does not work, it never will - and further more, didn't we try to bury this toxic play style when we decided to nerf Dragonknights into the ground?

THIS. 100% signed.

The healing/rezzing nerfs will "only" seriosly harm PvE players trying to heal PUGs.
What finally could kill the Templar class for PvE and PvP is the mobility nerf.
PvP+PvE endgame content does not allow standing still and recasting circles again and again.

DKs already suffered an Exodus. Almost all my DK friends left the game or changed the class.
Result: It's almost impossible to find a DK Tank on consoles for a PUG.
ZOS now risk that Templars will be the next players on Exodus.
Will Sorcs and NBs be strong enough to carry the game in PvP and PvE alone?

Yes, they are. In fact sorcerers can do tank/dps/healer, while NB can tank/dps/heal... wait, they have all we need to clean the whole content in the game, and do it better than DK who are supposed to be tank, and templar who are supposed to be healers !? Yes ! ZOS logic...

And honestly Efficient Purge is better than Cleansing Ritual. Furthermore, these two classes have so much regeneration the added cost really doesn't effect them, and in the case of the Sorcerer he mitigates the cost in huge ways. Even as a Templar I favored Efficient Purge until they forced me to use cleansing ritual just so I could access my class passives - that should tell you something. Efficient purge is honestly a much better skill than a class skill. You don't see that happening between other core class skills and their alternative out-of-class skills. An easy example is the difference between the medium armor active skill and NB's Mirage.

dodgehopper_ESO

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g @Joy_Division @Cinbri
I'm nominating you 3 to official Templar ambassadors. If the community agrees, then they will give the last say for what skills a Templar gets. They will of course help filter our ideas so that we aren't all over the place.

Once those ideas are finalized and we all agree these 3 should represent us, please send me the final design changes we want out of templars. Reason for sending me the changes? I'm assembling the main issues in a document for ZOS to review and for us to officially sign off on. (See below for a quick snapshot). This should help us focus our anger visually, as it should yellow below represents that our community and game reject the current Templar changes/playstyle.

I'm still very uncomfortable with removing Health as the base stat for our shield, particularly when I feel the whole balance flaw is that all mitigating skills should scale with health and not magic and/or stamina. Health is already a dump stat, it doesn't need to be any worse than it already is. Tanks already do horribly weak damage and their mitigation is only marginally better. The great design flaw right now with Sorcerers is that Crit Surge should be more reliable or dark exchange should be more functional. That's it. Their shield is too damned good, and while I understand their desire to keep it, places them far in a position where they are far more tanky than DK/Templar as Dk/Templar is forced to split attributes. Its pretty ridiculous when my Shield is bigger than my health pool, and my magica pool and regeneration is so huge I can bubble forever, even with battle spirit. They've made a scenario with battle spirit that broke the backs of two classes while barely denting another. THAT is the flaw, and its glaringly obvious to anyone who plays more than a sorcerer. Now that Sorcerer will have its own breath of life, along with surge, dark exchanges, mines, you're looking at a scenario where A sorc can have solid backlash damage that will output better than sun shield, last longer than sun shield, cost less than sun shield, and heal better than Templar. Templar is garbage right now, but I vehemently think to create parity the nail that is sticking out is NOT Templar and DK, it is the way in which Conjured Ward and Healing ward function. Either battle spirit needs to leave health scaling skills alone (Gdb, bone shield, sun shield obsidian shield) or they could simply make Sorcerer fit the way the rest of the game works. Doesn't that seem like a much easier fix? It does to me, and it would actually make being a tank in any class more logical than the nonsense we have right now.

dodgehopper_ESO

TheM0rganism wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Essiaga wrote: »

contact.opiumb16_ESO wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I'd like to say Update 6 was pretty much the most perfect update a Templar has had since launch. This includes PvE and PvP [...]

what @Wrobel said on ESOLive and what his newest vision was for Templars, making them a stable tank and welcoming people into their homes, and honestly it's making me want to stop playing this game altogether, because this whole game is about mobility [...]

ZOS are trying to remove the Templar mobility, this is focused around Rune Focus and it's morphs - this game is heavily mobile, the whole welcome to our house does not work, it never will - and further more, didn't we try to bury this toxic play style when we decided to nerf Dragonknights into the ground?

THIS. 100% signed.

The healing/rezzing nerfs will "only" seriosly harm PvE players trying to heal PUGs.
What finally could kill the Templar class for PvE and PvP is the mobility nerf.
PvP+PvE endgame content does not allow standing still and recasting circles again and again.

DKs already suffered an Exodus. Almost all my DK friends left the game or changed the class.
Result: It's almost impossible to find a DK Tank on consoles for a PUG.
ZOS now risk that Templars will be the next players on Exodus.
Will Sorcs and NBs be strong enough to carry the game in PvP and PvE alone?

Yes, they are. In fact sorcerers can do tank/dps/healer, while NB can tank/dps/heal... wait, they have all we need to clean the whole content in the game, and do it better than DK who are supposed to be tank, and templar who are supposed to be healers !? Yes ! ZOS logic...

I read it as will people accept playing the 2 classes. Don't forget that DK got some work to so I think they'll be improved and many people will see them as the fotm.

Only way I see people rolling a templar is if Dark Flare doesn't get nerfed. Beyond that I don't think we got what we needed to make us break even this patch. We're less able to 'stand our ground' which includes no more capable of tanking PVE.

ya i think fotm will be mag dk and/or mag sorc. mag is the min/max build until they adjust ability damages.

It's going to be Healer MagDKs. Mini-Barrier gonna be OP af

I've already turned my Dragon Knight into a healer-mage in preparation for the changes.

Minno

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g @Joy_Division @Cinbri
I'm nominating you 3 to official Templar ambassadors. If the community agrees, then they will give the last say for what skills a Templar gets. They will of course help filter our ideas so that we aren't all over the place.

Once those ideas are finalized and we all agree these 3 should represent us, please send me the final design changes we want out of templars. Reason for sending me the changes? I'm assembling the main issues in a document for ZOS to review and for us to officially sign off on. (See below for a quick snapshot). This should help us focus our anger visually, as it should yellow below represents that our community and game reject the current Templar changes/playstyle.

I'm still very uncomfortable with removing Health as the base stat for our shield, particularly when I feel the whole balance flaw is that all mitigating skills should scale with health and not magic and/or stamina. Health is already a dump stat, it doesn't need to be any worse than it already is. Tanks already do horribly weak damage and their mitigation is only marginally better. The great design flaw right now with Sorcerers is that Crit Surge should be more reliable or dark exchange should be more functional. That's it. Their shield is too damned good, and while I understand their desire to keep it, places them far in a position where they are far more tanky than DK/Templar as Dk/Templar is forced to split attributes. Its pretty ridiculous when my Shield is bigger than my health pool, and my magica pool and regeneration is so huge I can bubble forever, even with battle spirit. They've made a scenario with battle spirit that broke the backs of two classes while barely denting another. THAT is the flaw, and its glaringly obvious to anyone who plays more than a sorcerer. Now that Sorcerer will have its own breath of life, along with surge, dark exchanges, mines, you're looking at a scenario where A sorc can have solid backlash damage that will output better than sun shield, last longer than sun shield, cost less than sun shield, and heal better than Templar. Templar is garbage right now, but I vehemently think to create parity the nail that is sticking out is NOT Templar and DK, it is the way in which Conjured Ward and Healing ward function. Either battle spirit needs to leave health scaling skills alone (Gdb, bone shield, sun shield obsidian shield) or they could simply make Sorcerer fit the way the rest of the game works. Doesn't that seem like a much easier fix? It does to me, and it would actually make being a tank in any class more logical than the nonsense we have right now.

Fair point! If the shield is changed for sorc's should the cost penalty be removed on streak?

Cinbri

1. We won't get mobility buffs 100% as Wrobel told on ESO Live
2. DragonBlood requare change of percentage and won't be fixed till Update 10. Sun Shield have this problem and shieldstacking problem, so it won't be fixed for 200% till Update 10.
^^^Just forget about those 2 things.

Zheg

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

Ahem, 56.7k hp thank you very much. And size doesn't matter! Right? ... right?

The sad truth is that this build comes as close to a threatening 'house' as a Templar can get.

Minno

Zheg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

Ahem, 56.7k hp thank you very much. And size doesn't matter! Right? ... right?

The sad truth is that this build comes as close to a threatening 'house' as a Templar can get.

Sallington

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

Ahem, 56.7k hp thank you very much. And size doesn't matter! Right? ... right?

The sad truth is that this build comes as close to a threatening 'house' as a Templar can get.

Joy_Division

Zheg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

Ahem, 56.7k hp thank you very much. And size doesn't matter! Right? ... right?

The sad truth is that this build comes as close to a threatening 'house' as a Templar can get.

Ha! Templars are so desperate that we're scrambling for those Ayleid Well bonuses

Sallington

Or our Rune Focus house...

Minno

Sallington wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

My health is 21K because I run drinks. I run with a guildmate who has 55K health and his shield is still smaller than what I get on my sorcerer who doesn't even have bastion maxed out. How much health isn't the issue here. Having abilities scales to it is not going to work well with how the game's mechanics since 1.6.

Ahem, 56.7k hp thank you very much. And size doesn't matter! Right? ... right?

The sad truth is that this build comes as close to a threatening 'house' as a Templar can get.

Essiaga

Minno wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g @Joy_Division @Cinbri
I'm nominating you 3 to official Templar ambassadors. If the community agrees, then they will give the last say for what skills a Templar gets. They will of course help filter our ideas so that we aren't all over the place.

Once those ideas are finalized and we all agree these 3 should represent us, please send me the final design changes we want out of templars. Reason for sending me the changes? I'm assembling the main issues in a document for ZOS to review and for us to officially sign off on. (See below for a quick snapshot). This should help us focus our anger visually, as it should yellow below represents that our community and game reject the current Templar changes/playstyle.

I'm still very uncomfortable with removing Health as the base stat for our shield, particularly when I feel the whole balance flaw is that all mitigating skills should scale with health and not magic and/or stamina. Health is already a dump stat, it doesn't need to be any worse than it already is. Tanks already do horribly weak damage and their mitigation is only marginally better. The great design flaw right now with Sorcerers is that Crit Surge should be more reliable or dark exchange should be more functional. That's it. Their shield is too damned good, and while I understand their desire to keep it, places them far in a position where they are far more tanky than DK/Templar as Dk/Templar is forced to split attributes. Its pretty ridiculous when my Shield is bigger than my health pool, and my magica pool and regeneration is so huge I can bubble forever, even with battle spirit. They've made a scenario with battle spirit that broke the backs of two classes while barely denting another. THAT is the flaw, and its glaringly obvious to anyone who plays more than a sorcerer. Now that Sorcerer will have its own breath of life, along with surge, dark exchanges, mines, you're looking at a scenario where A sorc can have solid backlash damage that will output better than sun shield, last longer than sun shield, cost less than sun shield, and heal better than Templar. Templar is garbage right now, but I vehemently think to create parity the nail that is sticking out is NOT Templar and DK, it is the way in which Conjured Ward and Healing ward function. Either battle spirit needs to leave health scaling skills alone (Gdb, bone shield, sun shield obsidian shield) or they could simply make Sorcerer fit the way the rest of the game works. Doesn't that seem like a much easier fix? It does to me, and it would actually make being a tank in any class more logical than the nonsense we have right now.

Fair point! If the shield is changed for sorc's should the cost penalty be removed on streak?

I don't think so. Streak received the "nerf" because it's annoying. Just like dodge roll, perma-block, etc. I also don't think Streak was intended to be a run away skill. Just a re positioning skill. The issue with all of these things is the removal of caps and addition of the CP system. more stats, more regen ... Skill cost means nothing when it's a mobile, mass CC, damage skill. If it was just a movement skill it wouldn't need the nerf.

With all shields being based on health you can still give the sorc's higher percentage if there is an issue.

Examples ...
Igneous/Sun etc ... 30% health
Hardend Ward ... 35-40% health

I recommend using magicka regen as well so that light armor/low stam magicka builds can get slightly larger shields then stam builds since they have stamina ... I think that's fair to tanks and medium armor users that can CC break, block, dodge roll far more then magicka classes. Did I already complain about cap removal and such? I hate to face a WB spammer with a shield as large as a magicka build

30% + (magicka regen x 3 with a diminishing return in there) ... This would ensure magicka builds have larger shields but make it so magicka regen stacking isn't OP. Entropy, Vamp, Repentance and that other morph ... would also help and legitimize ZOS not giving us passives that are increase to our magicka regen stat. Rune will not effect this is the stat doesn't change. Though I like my Preempt suggestion posted in this rant ... http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2705864/#Comment_2705864

Shame of it MagSorc who has the least needed to dodge roll/block, etc. also gets the largest shield.

Minno

Essiaga wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

@Nifty2g @Joy_Division @Cinbri
I'm nominating you 3 to official Templar ambassadors. If the community agrees, then they will give the last say for what skills a Templar gets. They will of course help filter our ideas so that we aren't all over the place.

Once those ideas are finalized and we all agree these 3 should represent us, please send me the final design changes we want out of templars. Reason for sending me the changes? I'm assembling the main issues in a document for ZOS to review and for us to officially sign off on. (See below for a quick snapshot). This should help us focus our anger visually, as it should yellow below represents that our community and game reject the current Templar changes/playstyle.

I'm still very uncomfortable with removing Health as the base stat for our shield, particularly when I feel the whole balance flaw is that all mitigating skills should scale with health and not magic and/or stamina. Health is already a dump stat, it doesn't need to be any worse than it already is. Tanks already do horribly weak damage and their mitigation is only marginally better. The great design flaw right now with Sorcerers is that Crit Surge should be more reliable or dark exchange should be more functional. That's it. Their shield is too damned good, and while I understand their desire to keep it, places them far in a position where they are far more tanky than DK/Templar as Dk/Templar is forced to split attributes. Its pretty ridiculous when my Shield is bigger than my health pool, and my magica pool and regeneration is so huge I can bubble forever, even with battle spirit. They've made a scenario with battle spirit that broke the backs of two classes while barely denting another. THAT is the flaw, and its glaringly obvious to anyone who plays more than a sorcerer. Now that Sorcerer will have its own breath of life, along with surge, dark exchanges, mines, you're looking at a scenario where A sorc can have solid backlash damage that will output better than sun shield, last longer than sun shield, cost less than sun shield, and heal better than Templar. Templar is garbage right now, but I vehemently think to create parity the nail that is sticking out is NOT Templar and DK, it is the way in which Conjured Ward and Healing ward function. Either battle spirit needs to leave health scaling skills alone (Gdb, bone shield, sun shield obsidian shield) or they could simply make Sorcerer fit the way the rest of the game works. Doesn't that seem like a much easier fix? It does to me, and it would actually make being a tank in any class more logical than the nonsense we have right now.

Fair point! If the shield is changed for sorc's should the cost penalty be removed on streak?

I don't think so. Streak received the "nerf" because it's annoying. Just like dodge roll, perma-block, etc. I also don't think Streak was intended to be a run away skill. Just a re positioning skill. The issue with all of these things is the removal of caps and addition of the CP system. more stats, more regen ... Skill cost means nothing when it's a mobile, mass CC, damage skill. If it was just a movement skill it wouldn't need the nerf.

With all shields being based on health you can still give the sorc's higher percentage if there is an issue.

Examples ...
Igneous/Sun etc ... 30% health
Hardend Ward ... 35-40% health

I recommend using magicka regen as well so that light armor/low stam magicka builds can get slightly larger shields then stam builds since they have stamina ... I think that's fair to tanks and medium armor users that can CC break, block, dodge roll far more then magicka classes. Did I already complain about cap removal and such? I hate to face a WB spammer with a shield as large as a magicka build

30% + (magicka regen x 3 with a diminishing return in there) ... This would ensure magicka builds have larger shields but make it so magicka regen stacking isn't OP. Entropy, Vamp, Repentance and that other morph ... would also help and legitimize ZOS not giving us passives that are increase to our magicka regen stat. Rune will not effect this is the stat doesn't change. Though I like my Preempt suggestion posted in this rant ... http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2705864/#Comment_2705864

Shame of it MagSorc who has the least needed to dodge roll/block, etc. also gets the largest shield.

Right on! Just playing devil's advocate and wanting to understand the reasoning.

SeptimusDova

Javelin for 6 seconds needs to remove all buffs from the target .
This will force the target to break contact and LOS while striving to re-establish buffs.Nothing like a hard spear to the face to shut someone down.
This buys the templar 6 seconds.
The two morphs on javelin can tree off one for stamina and one for magic. Nothing additional is needed on them at the morph just a selection and a tool for both the magplar and stamplar.

@Fengrush when the pts goes live you might get kicked out of your house.

AfkNinja

SeptimusDova wrote: »

Javelin for 6 seconds needs to remove all buffs from the target .
This will force the target to break contact and LOS while striving to re-establish buffs.Nothing like a hard spear to the face to shut someone down.
This buys the templar 6 seconds.
The two morphs on javelin can tree off one for stamina and one for magic. Nothing additional is needed on them at the morph just a selection and a tool for both the magplar and stamplar.

Awesome. This would be invaluable on Stamplar.

AriBoh

So 2 pages and bows get a dev post and a buff in the next pts incremental. THE. ACTUAL. ***.

timidobserver

AriBoh wrote: »

So 2 pages and bows get a dev post and a buff in the next pts incremental. THE. ACTUAL. ***.

Bow is pretty baddd as a primary weapon for PvE DPS, so I don't mind. Though, I do wish our changes were as well thought out as the bow change. It is hard to believe that the same team that made that Templar changes also made that bow change.