Official Feedback Thread for Templars

Soris

Cinbri wrote: »

However I fount in Wrobel words 2 very important things:
1. Wrobel confirmed that like DK it designed to be "hold-your-ground" turtle class.
2. And as result - decision i made long time ago to roll tankplar "juggernaut" build was right as nothing will be changed on this and in Update 10 with heavy armor buffs it will prevail even more.

I hope they make the skills fit in that playstyle as well.
I really like that style. It is how i play my templar with both magic and stamina builds. But skilsl are so outdated to support that playstle. It somehow working sometimes if you try hard. But they can be better i believe. Eric finally addressed that problem yesterday, after a year later. I just hope he come up with a good redesign for blazing shield and blinding flashes effect added to a skill(he said that!!). I can only hope because he often don't listen anyway.

eliisra

Soris wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

However I fount in Wrobel words 2 very important things:
1. Wrobel confirmed that like DK it designed to be "hold-your-ground" turtle class.
2. And as result - decision i made long time ago to roll tankplar "juggernaut" build was right as nothing will be changed on this and in Update 10 with heavy armor buffs it will prevail even more.

I hope they make the skills fit in that playstyle as well.
I really like that style. It is how i play my templar with both magic and stamina builds. But skilsl are so outdated to support that playstle. It somehow working sometimes if you try hard. But they can be better i believe. Eric finally addressed that problem yesterday, after a year later. I just hope he come up with a good redesign for blazing shield and blinding flashes effect added to a skill(he said that!!). I can only hope because he often don't listen anyway.

Yes, very outdated skills.

If templars are supposed to "hold their ground", how come my sorc with actual mobility and higher burst, does it better?

Place mines, Hardened ward&Healing ward and you're better protected while standing still, than a templar.

Rune Focus or Breath of Life doesn't stop anyone from entering a house lol. We have no powerful defensive skills at all, after removal of Flashes and battle spirit nerf making Sun Shield obsolete.

Update the skills to fit the intended design of the class and I might consider paying for this game again.

Ashamray

Small wet offtopic:
Yesterday night I (magplar) was lurking in Azura's Imperial City as usual, and one glass NB attacked me. His damage was high, but no defence, so I bursted him down with a Dawnb. And his whisper burned my butt really
"Why didn't you die? Templars always die coz I have good damage", he said.
This NB wasn't a good one, but the fact that such a mediocre player usually had no problems with Templars is very sad.

NewBlacksmurf

Kevmeister wrote: »

CraftMaster wrote: »

The breath of life nerf is along the right lines but I just think it should reduce the healing to the 3rd and 4th person as well as or a reduced cost. If a tank is doing his job well he shouldn't need as many heald as the DD and it's encouraging the return of a tank to all delves since most can be done with 3 DPS and no need for a tank.

For the umpteenth time, BoL only heals 3 targets. Never a 4th. Maybe due to this misconception by others, they perceived that it heals everyone in a group and that the heal is 'OP'. It heals 3 out 4 players. And now, with the upcoming change in PTS, it's 2 out of 4 players.

There are two heals that were nerfed so maybe some are confused but the two together does drastically remove any group healing efficencies so overall these change reduce group healing.

Not getting caught up in the number...for PvE, this is a HUGE change.

For PvP I think it was necessary but why is ZOS trying to make sweeping changes vs effects that differ in PvP vs PvE for the same skills

Cinbri

Typical magicka Templar vs magicka DK duel: dk cast talons on templar, templar cast purify coz can't land attack on dk, dk cast talons again and spam it till templar give up on purify them = templar can't land i single Jab on dk.
@Wrobel fix Jabs as it was before, so it change direction when camera moving. Templar can't fight in roots

kaalmoth

Cinbri wrote: »

Typical magicka Templar vs magicka DK duel: dk cast talons on templar, templar cast purify coz can't land attack on dk, dk cast talons again and spam it till templar give up on purify them = templar can't land i single Jab on dk.
@Wrobel fix Jabs as it was before, so it change direction when camera moving. Templar can't fight in roots

Indeed, and before we could at least reflect whips a bit, not anymore!

Venomback

So many great points I agree with about how Templars got screwed up I didn't even bother reading past page 11, I just started looking for a response from ZOS and found none.

Cinbri

Venomback wrote: »

So many great points I agree with about how Templars got screwed up I didn't even bother reading past page 11, I just started looking for a response from ZOS and found none.

We know zos opinion - Templars are perfectly balanced coz streamers and those who never ever tried to play pvp templar claiming thay are balanced. Streamers who never tried to play magicka pvp templar knows better than templar community.

Ashamray

Cinbri wrote: »

Typical magicka Templar vs magicka DK duel: dk cast talons on templar, templar cast purify coz can't land attack on dk, dk cast talons again and spam it till templar give up on purify them = templar can't land i single Jab on dk.
@Wrobel fix Jabs as it was before, so it change direction when camera moving. Templar can't fight in roots

It's absolutely outrageous battle. I spam purify like an idiot, DK spams talons like an idiot too and If both are good idiots, fight never ends.

Animal_Mother

While I would love to play my Templar with a "stand-my-ground", I simply don't have the tools to make it work.

I don't have a reliable class gap closer that would help me establish my homestead from land currently occupied by my oppressors. Our gap closer even offers an AOE option, that I cannot receive from weapon-based options. I have read some where on the forum, that Focus Charge will receive some indication to the user when it will not work in game. What are we to do in that circumstance? Slot two charges on our ability bar? Swap one for another? In combat? It's been two years.

Could the problem with our gap closer be a result of our permanent GCD? Weapon-based gap closers work fine with a Templar. Sure they glitch every now and then as you start to use them aggressively, but they actually work and the only apparent difference is they are weapon skills and not Templar skills.

The GCD seems to have strange effects on our other skills. For example, Solar Barrage. I tried to make it work on PTS. In the following sequence I would start with Invasion (a gap closer that works), follow up with Solar Barrage and then Deep Slash - all of them instant cast abilities. Everything worked well. Charge - Boom! Solar Barrage - Boom! Deep Slash - Bo.. look is that a squirrel..om. Change the order. Charge, Slash, Barrage - Boom, then smell roses. Only difference and only thing holding back the rotation was the Templar skill in the middle.

Somehow, I have established my homestead, now I have to defend it. I've made sure to decorate it with good flooring, but good flooring does not stop the occaisional interloper from trespassing on my domain. I have no problem ejecting trespassers one at a time from my castle. I got tools. I can throw sticks at them. One up in the air, the other straight at them; stun or knockback, I can handle one trespasser.

What happens it the trespasser brings his pals to my humble domain? In the past, I would just have to get hopping mad and display it. I make myself glow with the fury that is Blazing Shield. Those that knew me would cease their transgression and runaway for another day. The fools that stayed, cried.

Sadly, we all age. Now, when riotors approach my home and I glow with anger, they just point and laugh. Old age and treachery, I have a plan. I can just throw dirt in their eyes and give these ruffians a piece on my mind. All I have to do is activate Blinding.. Blinding St.. where did I put that Blinding stuff. Ouch that hurt.

Time to heal. I guess those miscreants are tougher than they look - all in thier light armor and everything. Since I live in a busy neighborhood, I'm always willing to share and help out those in need. I'll just cast this Breathe of Life to heal myself and.. voila..oh, I didn't get healed. I guess my neighbors needed it more than me. Let me try that again. Hey, I got something.

I gonna try this other heal. It's actually a Healing Ritual. How's it go, hands together, deep breathe... ouch. Where was I? Hands together, deep breathe... quit it. Stop interrupting me. Can't you see I'm trying to heal.

I'll try my last heal Repentance. First, I need a body....

edit: ZOS please give me the tools I need.

Rudyard

Oh yeah, that sorc pet that is replacing your heals? It gets covered by sorcs' hardened ward. That's right, the pet with better heals than you gets a shield you can only dream of. That shield also has a 20 second duration, so if not being directly attacked you don't have to recast it as often as say, other, less effective shields. Can you feel the love, Templars? I guess we all need to reroll Sorc.

Radburn

Joy_Division wrote: »

I dont know ... still trying to process disappointment.

The thing I don't get is the Eric actually speaks like his has a grasp of the Meta and the basic play-style of what people do, but when it comes to talking about templars, it sounds like he has no experience playing them and how awkward they fit into that Meta. It's one thing to speak about anticipating when to heal for Healing Ritual and to say the templar has a "house," but anyone who has ever tried to use Healing Ritual or defend their "house" in a competitive situation knows just how impractical the templar toolkit is for doing either.

There is a serious disconnect between what ZoS thinks a templar can do and what templars are actually doing in competitive situations

This is the only logical explanation, they don't understand the meta. I have a lot of experience in PVP games, played in a hardcore pvp guild for a time. This is the first class I have ever played where my goal in PVP is not to kill others, but rather to try and stay alive.

The issue is not with the class itself, we have strong skills. I'm fine with the BOL nerf, I like the other healing changes. What I am not fine with is the current meta.

@Wrobel What you fail to understand is the Templar is not fighting in the same weight class as others. You have a welter weight fighting against heavy weights. Until Templars get something that adds "weight" to our cause we will continue to get pummeled into submission.

You want Templars to be able to stand their ground, defend their "house" and find a place in the current PvP meta. The only way for that to happen is if we have reasonable changes that will improve our performance and debilitate our enemies within our "house."

With Rune Focus & Cleansing Ritual in mind here are a couple more suggestions:

Rune Focus > Rune Control - Provides CC immunity while inside the 5m radius

Cleansing Ritual > Ritual of Flame (replace extended) - same synergy, Purges 1 debuff, Heals every 2 seconds, burns up to (6-10) enemies within for flame damage every 2 seconds, burning enemies are snared and movement speed reduced by 40%

Now try and come into my house *pumps shotgun*

david.haypreub18_ESO

We used to have Blinding Flashes. At least that allowed us to control some ground. Now we have nothing but nice flooring, which does not punish those who come into our house.

It is incredible that we waited a year for what we were led to believe were buffs, but in the end just have our signature ability nerfed and many of the bugs/issues with our skills are left unaddressed.

Templars can't protect their 'house' if they don't have the tools for it. You've been giving the other classes tools from our toolbook (Matriarch heal for Sorc, shields for DK), but haven't been giving us any tools from theirs. How are we supposed to tank, or DPS, or 'protect our house'? We don't have the tools to do it if our skills are slow, bugged, and weak.

SeptimusDova

This is so sad. Again we get the shaft.

Kahl_dur

bikerangelo

Lol rain, this is my house.


Aw yeah, sand.


Snow is my favorite.


See that view? Be jealous.

Tdroid

Since it seems the Zenimax team has no interest in making the Templar work, even going so far as to mess with the one thing they could actually do in the game(healing), I have to wonder why they don't just delete the class already.

And then hopefully give us something with Frost powers instead. Maybe they'd be more able to do something useful with that, since the Fire class and Shock class are pretty good.

That is not to say I dislike the Templar as a concept, but it seems to me that ZOS won't, or can't, fix it anyway.

Zheg

I'd also point out that I see a wide spectrum of players all reiterating very similar feedback. The feedback is coming from solo/small group pvpers, large group pvpers, veteran pvpers, regular pve'ers, top trial guild pve'ers, casual and hardcore alike.

Kahl_dur wrote: »

How come templars don't get an effing pool!? That's some messed up ***.

david.haypreub18_ESO

Keep up the pressure folks. There is no guarantee they will listen, but from the ESO Live, it was clear that at least the women interviewing Eric were aware that a lot of people were not happy with the Templar changes. And even though Eric and the combat team seems to be completely disregarding all our feedback, it did seem to me that he was at least cognizant of the heat.

Keep posting, keep giving suggestions for solutions, keep explaining why Templars have no tools to protect their 'house', keep noting in detail how exactly Templar skills are bugged and slow and don't work, and keep explaining why Templars are falling further and further behind in the current meta.

It is our only hope: that some day he will listen to reason and the many voices in the Templar community that have long been ignored.

Zheg

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Keep up the pressure folks. There is no guarantee they will listen, but from the ESO Live, it was clear that at least the women interviewing Eric were aware that a lot of people were not happy with the Templar changes. And even though Eric and the combat team seems to be completely disregarding all our feedback, it did seem to me that he was at least cognizant of the heat.

Keep posting, keep giving suggestions for solutions, keep explaining why Templars have no tools to protect their 'house', keep noting in detail how exactly Templar skills are bugged and slow and don't work, and keep explaining why Templars are falling further and further behind in the current meta.

It is our only hope: that some day he will listen to reason and the many voices in the Templar community that have long been ignored.

The problem is that he moves at a snail pace, whether due to lack of resources, an inability to work quickly, or both. There were many glaring issues he acknowledged (outside of templars) during the ESO Live, and he said they wouldn't even tweaked until the next patch which won't hit live for 4-5 months. He also said something I found very revealing, "we ONLY have 3 months or so to get these things out" (to paraphrase) as if to imply they have small windows to actually get out a balance change, compared to other companies that can push these things out in 2 weeks. So, even if the heat does mount to a point where he's forced to act, the action won't come for at least 4-5 months from now.

david.haypreub18_ESO

True, but not all changes need to take 3 months. They initially just wanted to add 1 meter to the range of the Aedric Spear ultimate, but now realize they will have to take more. Adding a few more meters to range is something that can be done quickly and relatively easily. So some changes might come soon.

Further, we have been waiting literally 2 years for Templars to be brought up to parity with the other classes. The only hope of this finally being achieved is to keep the pressure on by consistently pointing out that Eric's idea of what the Templar class should be is far, far from a reality right now.

technohic

Zheg wrote: »

How come templars don't get an effing pool!? That's some messed up ***.

Don't want to homogenize the class.

GhostwalkerLD

I think it's save to say that after 31 pages and not a single dev response, that they (especially @Wrobel), will not listen to us at all, let alone provide any response. I've already unsubbed (which is the only thing that might possibly get anyone at ZOS's attention, but I doubt that as well), and the only reason I even still play is because I have friends here. @Wrobel , you've made it abundantly clear that not only will you not listen to Templars (even after supposedly asking for our feedback), but that you are actively doing everything you can to marginalize us and convince us to play "properly" (I.e... pick another class). Well, I'm not doing that. My templar is my main, and always will be, but I'll probably just hop on to help my friends with dungeons (with what little healing I can still do) and other than that, play Elsweyr (I wish... Elder Scrolls: Elsweyr. MAKE IT HAPPEN!).. but yes, elsewhere.

So, I'll add my recommendation to the other games mentioned: Blade and Soul. It's surprisingly fun, especially for a game that's completely free, and seems pleasantly devoid of any cash-store nonsense that isn't purely cosmetic or xp-boost related.

Solariken

From ESO Live, it doesn't sound like @Wrobel is willing to implement any major skill changes for Templars this DLC. I know I'm not alone in the righteous rage I feel toward the combat team at the moment - that whole spiel about the "Templar's house" felt insulting (though I know insult was not Wrobel's intent) because on some level they MUST know that this design philosophy runs contrary to the game they have built, both PvP and PvE, where mobility is a top priority. It also feels like they aren't reading the great feedback we've been providing.

Earlier in this thread I put forth two very conservative suggestions for class passives which I feel will save the Templar class at least in the interim. I'm posting them again to provide more focus and discussion for these two ideas:

1. Minor Expedition (+10% movement) buff granted at all times while an Aedric Spear ability is slotted. [add to Burning Light?]

This buff would be completely unique to Templars, would fit nicely into the "crusader of light" persona and Aedric Spear line, and would go a long way toward relieving serious mobility woes for both flavors of Templar. It would be a very mild counter to Sorcerers and Nightblades running around with Major Evasion in addition to their powerful escapes. It has also become more important to add this in response to Dk's receiving a true class gap closer. Templars would not so desperately need Major Expedition with this passive and the incoming changes to sprint.

2. Minor Evasion (+10% dodge chance) buff granted for 4-8 seconds upon activation of a Dawn's Wrath ability. [add to Prism?]

This buff would also be completely unique to Templars, and would in a small way make up for the fact that Templars otherwise have to soak all of the damage thrown at them, whereas other classes have pretty reliable ways to escape damage. Damage mitigation/evasion for Templars is currently FAR behind all the other classes. I agree that the old Blinding Flashes caused some problems, but we desperately need something in its place - what we Templars really need is some evasion, even if it's only a measly 10% chance for a few seconds.

What do you think Templar brethren?

danno8

technohic wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

How come templars don't get an effing pool!? That's some messed up ***.

Don't want to homogenize the class.

Finally Templar also get a pool!




For balance they had to remove the filtration system though.

Why do all the other classes get a filtration system? Well someone has to maintain the non-homogeny of the classes!

SeptimusDova

Templar Operators Union #420 has put the call to strike out.

Speaking of 420 don't mind if I do.

tinythinker

Joy_Division wrote: »

The thing I don't get is the Eric actually speaks like his has a grasp of the Meta and the basic play-style of what people do, but when it comes to talking about templars, it sounds like he has no experience playing them and how awkward they fit into that Meta... There is a serious disconnect between what ZoS thinks a templar can do and what templars are actually doing in competitive situations

kaalmoth wrote: »

I kinda like the king of my house story he served us. BUT, it would be cool to have facts to back it up. Right now, what do templar gain in their tiny houses others don't have and do fear?

phillyboy7897 wrote: »

What wrobel is saying is possible but to sit still and face tank everything For more than 2 seconds requires serious mitigation, like way way more than is possible in the game.

He's actually throwing out some cool concepts and I agree that class distinction is important, but when it comes down to the numbers the ability changes don't match up with our class concept. I.e. the Templars house winds up being about the same defensive capability as other classes achieve while mobile.

I agree with these comments, like a cyphergram

Eric actually has a grasp of the Meta but it sounds like he has no experience playing [Templars] and how awkwardly they fit into that Meta. I kinda like the king of my house story he served us. What Wrobel is saying is possible [but] it requires serious mitigation. He's actually throwing out some cool concepts but the ability changes don't match up with our class concept.

I know there's a lot of anger toward the combat team, and Eric is both the lead and the public face of that team, but a lot of the venom tossed his way recently has been beyond ridiculous. I don't blame or criticize people for unsubbing or finding another game to play if they aren't happy with the direction of ESO, but I would hope that those who are staying with/supporting the game can still find ways to be constructive.

If you look at NBs, Sorcs, and DKs, while not all changes proposed/made are popular, they do seem to fit the changing meta pretty well. Why this isn't as true, from (many) players' perspectives, for Templars is indeed a mystery. So I don't buy the "Eric and the combat team are utterly inept" argument. If so, why aren't the other classes in the same boat as Templar? (As for stam class changes, he said yesterday they are working on those for Dark Brotherhood.)

So, now that we know what emphasis/direction/vision has for the Templar, those who still feel like theorycrafting might want to aim for suggestions on how that could be better realized. I invite someone from the combat team to poke their head in once in a while just to confirm this thread is still being read, even though it probably means lots of tagging and replies begging for or demanding this or that


Now for the TL;DR Section That Goes Through All of the Skill Lines

With the vision I suspected for Templars confirmed, I'm going to have some fun with this. Even if the combat team decided lots of further changes were necessary, most of these wouldn't be addable in time for Update 9 (Thieve's Guild), and some would have to wait for Update 10 (Dark Brotherhood) and beyond. All numbers given are adjustable but sound better than always using "x" and "y".

Aedric Spear

The following proposed changes emphasize controlling and punishing opponents who try to enter "the Templar's house". They involve more CC and more synergy within the skill line. If Templars are to be slower and less mobile, they need more threats to deploy against single and multiple targets trying to enter their space. The suggestions were considered for both PvE and PvP. I am being mindful of Stamplars but not focusing on changing any morphs to stamina costs at present.

Ultimate: Radial Sweep

The Empowering Sweep morph works for being tanky in PvE on large pulls an the extra meter it will get as part of buff to the base ability is fine, but the other morph needs work. (@Cinbri has suggested replacing the formula for the amount of damage mitigation for Empowering with Major Protection, which would have the advantage of always having at least 30% mitigation and requiring fewer calculations by the server. On the other hand, mitigation would always be capped at 30%, too.)

Crescent Sweep is meant to be a small burst+dot focusing on enemies in front of the player (33% more damage to enemies in front of the caster on the initial hit). It's more like a really strong AoE regular skill than an ultimate but that is probably tied to it being relatively cheap. Add Minor Berserk (+8% to all damage) to the caster for the duration of the ability (6 seconds) when outside of the ability's AoE range and give Major Berserk (+25% to all damage) while the caster is inside the 5 meter area of effect. Thus it pays for the caster to try to protect her "house" but recognizes there is still often a need for some degree of mobility.


Active Skills

Puncturing Strikes

Keep it like it is for 2.3.x with the new snare or drop the snare, either way, but add either a bleed effect, a burning effect, or a 2 second knockdown versus off balance targets. This fits well with the effect Toppling Charge already has on active casters and also with the proposed change to Blazing Spear described below. There needs to be more inter-skill synergy for Templar. I had written up the bleed vs. off balance targets idea for Piercing Javelin to give it more value, but it was too clumsy work with this idea as it is a ranged skill. Strikes is the bread and butter ability of a "not in my house"/"stand tall" playstyle for Templars so it makes sense as the locus of a skill line synergy.

Piercing Javelin

The longer distance (and thus increased damage) for Aurora Javelin in 2.3.x is nice. I was one of those requesting this, so my thanks. But what if it also snared the target by 35-40% for 3 seconds. For the "not in my house" feel, such a snare would be a real boost, since keeping enemies at a distance and only letting them approach on your terms is valuable tool for that playstyle. Yes, Binding Javelin has a 3 second knockdown but Aurora still gets the bonus damage for distance traveled and now both can help dictate when to engage in melee range and offer an escape hatch if needed.

Spear Shards

Great ability. Let's talk the "not in my house" model, though. How about we have Blazing Spear still stun one target for two seconds but set 2-4 others off balance? Would work well with the proposed change to Puncturing Strikes above (Blazing Spear --> Strikes...Strikes...Strikes...). For Luminous Shards still have one target disoriented but snare 2-4 others by 25-30% for 4 seconds. As with the recommended change to Piercing Javelin, this helps control who gets near the Templar and gives more options for an escape attempt.

Sun Shield

Wrobel mentioned he was planning on looking into tanky skills, and name checked Sun Shield. He said that he doesn't want to go back to the days of unkillable tanks. Fair enough. But if we are taking the "not in my house" approach to skill reviews, this needs buffed. Increase shield strength from 27% to 35% of caster's health for Sun Shield and its morphs. Either that, or, if there is concern about super-high health stacking tanks being OP, have it scale off of the highest stat between magicka and stamina. I prefer the tanky/health option, but whatever. The better changes are just below.

Give a 35-40% increase to the damage done on activation for the base ability and for Radiant Ward, while stunning those caught in the blast of the activation of the latter for 2 seconds. Knock down enemies in range of the AoE damage effect when Blazing Shield explodes for 2 seconds. You want to play in a Templar's house? You play by the Templar's rules. These changes make the 6 second duration an asset rather than a liability for Blazing Shield, and Radiant Ward can stun again once CC immunity wears off, which would be only a couple of seconds after the max duration of the effect.


Passive Skills

Piercing Spear

Buff the bonus damage against blocking targets from 5/10% to either 7/15% or 10/20% and have the bonus work against shielded targets as well. This and the suggested change to Spear Wall below help to punish targets who stay close and fight and also helps to flesh out the Templar's distinctiveness. Players will start to actually think "Blocking/shielding up isn't going to work as well against Templars." This change also makes more of the slower moving/functioning Templar ranged abilities, such as those from the Dawn's Wrath skill line. This will push enemy players into wanting to dodge more and stay mobile.

Spear Wall

Add (a chance to) inflict Minor Maim, which gives a 15% damage reduction, to targets whose melee attacks are successfully blocked. If it is a chance-based proc rather than automatic the odds should be no lower than 25% and preferably would be 50%. But given that it's just versus melee, it ought to be 100%/automatic. If Templars are to continue to have limited mobility and fight in rune circles and healing circles and such while they defend their "houses", there needs to be more mitigation. If you hit a spear wall, it should sting. Get up in a Templar's face and you'll bleed.

Spear Wall

I agree with @Hymzir that this should proc on shields, and along with the above suggested change to Piercing Spear would help give Templars a small edge as a shield buster class.

Balanced Warrior

This should be updated to include Physical Damage in the 1000/2000 resist bonus, especially in a melee-focused/area of denial setup for "stand tall" game play considering that melee weapons do, ya know, physical damage. To be fully "balanced", Spell Damage would need to be included in the 3%/6% bonus as well.

Dawn's Wrath

The following proposed changes emphasize debuffing opponents and throwing hard hitting attacks at those standing outside of the "Templar's house".

Ultimate: Nova

Great ability, great morphs, just drop the cost to the 200-220 range.


Active Skills

Sun Fire
So meh. Sooooooo soooooo meh. Now, I know there are builds that use the Reflective Light morph as part of a fire-damage DPS build, and it can be useful while leveling, so good. But Vampire's Bane? Making the DoT last longer or burn hotter as a single target skill is a waste, and this is mentioned whenever a comprehensive review by a player pops up because we've all tried it and figured, "I could just burn the same target down faster with [X, Y, or Z] ability before the final tick of VB even hits. And sure, a snare, but that's what the Aedric Spear skill line should be for (see above).

How about having it do one-shot burst damage that lower resistance to elemental damage for those seven seconds? Give it a 15% chance to proc for an extra 25-30% damage, like a magicka version of a Fighter's Guild skill. Vampire's Bane indeed. And the Enduring Rays passive would simply extend the lower resistance to elemental damage. I used to say for months to just swap "Major Sorcery" for "Major Prophecy" as the fix for VB, but with time to think about it more, I came up with and now favor the burst (into flame) damage fix instead.

Solar Flare/b]
So close, yet so far away. So close, yet so far away. We dream of (hitting our targets) tomorrow, but we're stuck in today... Sorry, Hall and Oates moment, there. But I would trade the extra damage given in 2.3.x to Dark Flare to disorient a target upon impact. At least if you managed to hit with the first one you would have a better chance of landing a second. But that still requires a target not to dodge roll away from the first projectile as it slowly arcs across the sky with a tell sound that says "double tap a direction key". My suggestions for extra CC in the Aedric Spear line can create some new openings for Dark Flare, but it's unclear whether those will be enough.

That's why I still like the idea of having it chase you like a heating seeking missile. That makes up for the clumsy cast, high arc, long flight, clear warning sound effect, etc. A target could still block the projectile to reduce damage taken, reflect it for no damage, or absorb it for little or no damage. A target could even outrun its range and escape. But the target couldn't dodge roll out of it. Keep the defile and empower, dump the new damage boost for 2.3.x, and give Templars a target-lock missile that can debuff an enemy group if the target doesn't get some distance from allies. A DK or any player with a sword and board can reflect/absorb it, a NB or Sorc can take the first hit and either CC the caster or cloak/streak away, and a fellow Templar can pop Eclipse on you. Risk and reward, but better than the current model since the first hit, even if bounced back at you, will actually land where you intended.

With regard to Solar Bore-age, I know a very few people who use it but I haven't since I first leveled up my magicka Templar a long time ago. It sounds great, a PBAoE that empowers your next attack. What a great skill to spam! But maybe there was a concern that would make it OP, so it's another "clunky instant cast" skill. Why not give it Major Defile as well like Dark Flare? One is a ranged projectile that defiles nearby allies of the target, one is a PBAoE that could do the same thing at greater risk up close. If not defile, then some other buff, debuff, or status effect to make it a competitor with Impulse from the Destruction Staff skill line.

Backlash

I haven't used Power of the Light since it became a stamina morph, at which point I switched to Purifying Light. I've used Backlash in one form or another when doing four person dungeons since I started playing a Templar, and it was always a nice DPS/HPS boost. I've heard some people say those boosts have been decreased with 2.3.x but I haven't tested that yet myself.

Eclipse

Give Eclipse and Total Dark a penalty (like 3x normal damage that would otherwise occur at the end of the ability) for breaking free. Still only one target allowed at a time and reflecting projectiles as per 2.3.1 mechanics. This forces a human opponent to decide between using non-projectile abilities and taking the extra damage. Bosses who are immune automatically "break free" and take damage, and the player has to wait the same period as a CC immunity timer to recast on a boss.

Unstable Core gets the bubble back, works like the 2.3x mechanics, but stuns the primary target upon exploding. The bubble keeps a human opponent from knowing which morph was used. The stun makes up for the lackluster damage and wait time. I really tried using it on the PTS but I had to kind of wait and slow down my fights for it to register before trash mobs were killed. Otherwise they died before it went off. Very lackluster. The stun also has some use in PvP, as that CC, rather than extra damage, is the break free penalty for players. Core also need to be added to the no fly list for Enduring Rays.

Radiant Destruction

Radiant Oppression great. Just add "healing effect increased up to 50% of damage done based on your current magicka" to Radiant Glory. If you want to add a stamina morph for this class execute, Oppression would make sense as long as magicka builds get the scaled healing just mentioned for Glory.


Passive Skills

Enduring Rays

Unstable Core, in it's 2.3.x incarnation, needs to be one of the skills excluded from this passive.

Restoring Spirit

I guess there is zero chance of every returning to the version of getting resources back per cast, even at a smaller percentage. So, straight buff it is the the cost reduction numbers to make Templars competitive. I've seen various numbers tossed out, but anything would be a significant improvement.

Restoring Light

The proposed changes are intended to create more viable options for Templar healing besides Breath of Life, Repentance, and Cleansing Ritual.

Ultimate: Rite of Passage
I rarely see either morph of this ability used outside of PvE. Sometimes I and some healer Templars will use Remembrance in group PvE play for bosses that have high damage phases, while others use Practiced Incantation and its slightly longer channel time (an extra two seconds). Perhaps Practiced Incantation could be altered to be the PvP-preferred version. For example, by extending the caster's immunity to crowd control effect to the allies being healed for the duration of the ability.


Active Skills

Rushed Ceremony

I'm not too bothered by the Breath of Life nerf. This is one of three places in this skill line I will mention a suggestion by Hymzir, though, since they deserve recognition: Give BoL back three targets but have them all at the lesser value while making the base ability and both morphs prioritize the caster.

Healing Ritual

I've had so many different ideas for this over the past couple of years, just all over the place. So I'll start with some ideas other people have offered:

A version you cast before the fight begins from @Faulgor

Healing Ritual: Cast restorative blessing on nearby allies. Restore 5% maximum Health every second for 30 seconds. 3 second cast time.

Lingering Ritual: Cast restorative blessing on nearby allies. Restore 5% maximum Health every second for 45 seconds. 3 second cast time.

Ritual of Rebirth: Cast restorative blessing on nearby allies. Restore 5% maximum Health every second for 30 seconds. 3 second cast time. Allies with less than 20% Health are healed back to 50%. Effect is removed thereafter.

These changes would offer a heal that fills an as of yet unfilled role.
- Strong buff that is designed to be pre-cast out of combat
- Offers an indirect tool for magicka sustain, because the damage "pre-healed" before combat doesn't have to be healed actively later
- Great utility for builds not focusing on magicka/spell damage, such as tanks and stamina builds

A Xivkyn Lacerator version from @Leon119

Personally i would love if healing ritual worked like the xivkyn lacerators's in WGT heal.
Leave it as it is with cast time at base skill and when cast makes an AoE centered around caster that functions as a HoT
Make morphs something along the line of:
● grant regen
● larger radius
● longer duration
● no cast time
● ect

A "turn it into a lesser form of Rite of Passgae" version (and replace Rite of Passage with something else) by @Talyena

Bump it's time and heal back to where it was. Bump the range to 28m. Make it interruptible and make it stop channeling if you move (but don't take away the ability to move). So if you only get to cast it for one second, you get off half the heal. Have it cap at 4-6 targets and work out the costs and have it be group only.

A "make it into a mobile HoT with instant cast" from @halfthepeopletalkingabouthealingritual

Make it a powerful hot that is instant-cast.

Here are my favorites from my own theorycrafting for your consideration:

"The Light"

In this new version of Healing Ritual, while you walk about praying and healing you are surrounded in a bright swirling glow as your healing energy pours out to nearby allies. You blind your foes, getting Major Evasion for two seconds (or Major Protection for two seconds or inflicting all nearby enemies with Major Maim for four seconds) starting when you press the button to cast the spell. The heal also begins instantly while you are doing a casting animation and still self-snared. The healing is reduced by 20% or so to compensate for the buff. For Lingering Ritual a smallish HoT applies to allies within the ability radius for 8 seconds after the cast time ends (centered on the caster who is no longer self-snared). Ritual of Rebirth restores one quarter of missing stamina and magicka to two nearby allies other than the caster over the course of three seconds. You still get 30% more healing from this spell.

"The Buff"

In another alternative I've also been considering, you still get the swirling light and self-snare cast time as per "The Light", but in this case the caster's allies gains Major Protection for 6 seconds or until the caster causes damage. Like "The Light", healing starts when casting begins, as does the buff. Basically the animation is for show not a delay in the heal. As with "The Light" the healing done and/or cost would be adjusted appropriately for balance. The morphs could stay the same as they have been since launch or could be tweaked. For example, Lingering Ritual could extend the buffs to 8 seconds, while Ritual of Rebirth could add Major Heroism or something similar alongside Major Protection. You still get 30% more healing from this spell.

"The Mover"

Basically, this is just like "The Buff" but it has no self-snare. So the heal still starts when you hit the button but you are as free to move as always. The base healing take a bigger hit to compensate, but, you are still giving those buffs to your allies while getting healed yourself. They can be the same buffs from "The Buff" or something else. You still get 30% more healing from this spell.

"The Toggle"

Most of my ideas for Healing Ritual have been based on keeping the cast time and the self-snare. This one doesn't. Rather than a specific number of health points that scale with spell damage, max magicka, and healing buffs, have it restore a percentage of their missing health, magicka, and stamina over time as a toggle. Toggling the ability on would drain health from the caster while restoring allies. The exact percentage of resources restored and the ratio of health drained to health restored would need to be based on internal testing to make sure it wasn't too strong or too weak. But given the risk and self-sacrifice, it would be a really big heal. There is still a risk, but not from the self-snare. Afterward the caster would have a reduction in healing received for a brief time to keep this ability from being abused.

Ritual of Rebirth would reduced the reduction in healing and buff health recovery. The Lingering Ritual Morph would give a delayed heal like it always has, but would be for a percentage of the healing done during the toggle.

At first glance, having a healer risk themselves by trading health for healing may sound like a death sentence for the healer, but again it would be balanced against doing a significant amount of healing to a fixed percentage of missing health. It would have a fast drain and tick for larger percentages of missing health over time. You could still run, sprint, and roll-dodge while saving a 12 player raid on the verge of wiping. And in any case, if you die you can always be rezzed. Hence the need to balance risk and reward to not make it a stealth easy mode mechanic where you just heal everyone to 100% while dying and get a rez after. Since the percentage of health restored goes up over time and since you can't cast anything else (other skills are locked out while channeling), just relying on this all of the time would be waste. It would be a great "Oh crap
button", though.

The cousin to this concept is to drain magicka super-fast instead of caster health, but it's more boring and is like a dull group version of Dark Deal. But it might be workable with some tweaking.

"The Replacement"

If all else fails, just dump this ability and figure out something else to put in its place. Use your imagination and go nuts.

Restoring Aura

Repentance continues to be a good skill for many builds, while Radiant Aura continues to be a disappointment. Change it to passively give allies the same buffs the Templar receives for slotting it: "Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Regeneration by 10%." For a bigger change, have activation give different buffs like Minor Evasion (5% dodge chance), Minor Protection (8% damage mitigation), and Minor Force (15% bonus to critical damage). With a 5% chance to dodge an enemy attack + 8% direct mitigation, allies are taking noticeably less damage, all the while having their stats regen faster (and not in conflict with tripots) and doing more damage. Subtle sounding? Yes. Helpful? Definitely.

Cleansing Ritual

If I were to suggest any changes, just follow Hymzir's rec to give one cleanse upon cast and get further cleanses, as per morph tooltip, with the synergy. For extra firepower, @Radburn suggests altering Extended Ritual to have enemies in its AoE take burning damage over time while they remain rather than lasting a few second longer. I like the idea, and technically a good name would be Purifying Ritual, but well, you can see the problems as that is already the name of the other morph. So, good options would include Sanctifying Ritual, Chastening Ritual, and Cauterizing Ritual. I am partial to that last one.

Rune Focus

I like this ability. I really do. I've been practicing fighting inside of it against things like the crossed-sword generals in the IC sewers. And it is *really* hard to stay inside of it: knockdowns that knock you back, AoE, AoE, AoE, targets zipping around, AoE, frontal conal attacks, AoE... the buffs the rune gives are awesome *if* you can stay inside of it. And even if you do, immoveable pots, Shuffle, and blocking only go so far for a magicka build. Meanwhile stamina builds need mobility to be viable.

So how about expanding the rune's radius a meter and either adding in an extra two seconds of CC immunity or being immune to soft CC if you manage to stay in the little circle? Also extend the length of ability (16s for base, for 24s morphs). As per the suggestion by Hymzir, allow all buffs to extend for 8s while outside the rune and to be renewed if you get back in before the 8s expire. Hence the new durations in multiples of eight.


Passive Skills

Mending

Like many Templar healers, I would love to see this passive work on all healing abilities, not just Restoring Light abilities, like it used to do. But the whole "Templars are too good at healing what about Sorcs/NBs/DKs?" mantra goes directly against this.

Light Weaver

Suggestion if kept in it's current form:

Have this passive grant 20 ultimate, not 2, when allies under 60% health are affected by Healing Ritual. Even if players spam it, there is little chance of exploiting. Cheap ultimates are cheap, so it doesn't matter if you charge them a bit faster. And getting to the costlier ultimates faster makes Healing Ritual more appealing.

How it would look if re-imagined:

Increase the value of critical heals by 10/20%.

I do like the 12500 Armor and Spell Resistance while channeling Right of Passage that comes with the current version of Light Weaver, so if we go with a re-imagined version, just stick this protection buff under Focused Healing or Master Ritualist.

Soris

eliisra wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

However I fount in Wrobel words 2 very important things:
1. Wrobel confirmed that like DK it designed to be "hold-your-ground" turtle class.
2. And as result - decision i made long time ago to roll tankplar "juggernaut" build was right as nothing will be changed on this and in Update 10 with heavy armor buffs it will prevail even more.

I hope they make the skills fit in that playstyle as well.
I really like that style. It is how i play my templar with both magic and stamina builds. But skilsl are so outdated to support that playstle. It somehow working sometimes if you try hard. But they can be better i believe. Eric finally addressed that problem yesterday, after a year later. I just hope he come up with a good redesign for blazing shield and blinding flashes effect added to a skill(he said that!!). I can only hope because he often don't listen anyway.

Yes, very outdated skills.

If templars are supposed to "hold their ground", how come my sorc with actual mobility and higher burst does it better?

Place mines, Hardened ward&Healing ward and you're better protected while standing still, than a templar.

Rune Focus or Breath of Life doesn't stop anyone from entering a house lol. We have no powerful defensive skills at all, after removal of Flashes and battle spirit nerf making Sun Shield obsolete.

Update the skills to fit the intended design of the class and I might consider paying for this game again.

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno You have to stop for a minute and read this quote.

timidobserver

@tinythinker The problem is that there is not a single reason an enemy or player shouldn't enter a Templar's house. Making such an implausible statement makes Wrobel seem incompetent thus the anger and frustration you are seeing. If there were a few things in the update to back up the whole house story he gave us, I think there would be a lot less anger and frustration. Instead of making changes to backup such a ludicrous statement we got a 1% increase to our shield and +1 added to the radius of our ultimate. He seemed to be describing the vision for the dragonknight not the Templar.

david.haypreub18_ESO

timidobserver wrote: »

Instead of making changes to backup such a ludicrous statement we got a 1% increase to our shield and +1 added to the radius of our ultimate. He seemed to be describing the vision for the dragonknight not the Templar.

Don't forget that sweet change to the Templar healing ultimate (the only one made to one of the worst ultimates in the game): now you can't use it while jumping!

The Templar class is now fixed!