Official Feedback Thread for Templars

pecheckler

Since templars are no longer an option for mobile healing, what's my next best choice? I've never healed with a nightblade or sorcerer. I want to be moving at all times and I want to minimize my dependency on cast-duration abilities that reduce movement speed.

tinythinker

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The only area where I feel DK healer is inferior is in the capacity of refilling your chums Stamina bar.

wayfarerx wrote: »

This is the only unique positive element of a templar healer anymore. Anything else unique about us is something we cannot do effectively (mobility, resource management, etc).

We are literally one new skill away from complete obsolescence.

timidobserver wrote: »

That is definitely the last standing thing that makes Templar superior to other healers. It's ultimately why I stopped theorycrafting the idea of swapping from a Templar healer to a DK healer. Any stam build is going to prefer a Templar healer over any other healer, regardless of comparative healing power. I expect that to be nerfed anytime now since it is the last thing that really holds Templar healers over others.

For now...

tinythinker

Pomaikai wrote: »

Guys and gals, I said it before, and I'll say it again. Just stop playing your Templars now. Roll something else up. I think I'm going to give a go at a Sorc for a while. I'm just going to retire my Templar to crafter status only, and do all of my playing on the new toon. It's really frustrating, as it was my only character, but I can't keep playing this craptastic disaster of a "balance" to my class.

GO ON STRIKE!

When there are no more Templars healing for Pledges, Trials, and PVP groups we'll see if ZOS finally takes notice. Let everyone else learn to heal groups, or sit in the LFG tool like so many flies in amber. Civil disobedience is our only recourse at this point in time since @Wroebel isn't listening.

I want you to get MAD! I'm a Templar dammit! My character has meaning! I want you to go your starter cities, and stand by the Wayshrines and yell, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!"

https://youtube.com/watch?v=rGIY5Vyj4YM

Won't work. Too many new players will think it sounds fun from the description on the character creation screen. Too many older players have a lot invested in their character. I'm sure some will quit the class but not enough to get noticed or cause concern.

danno8

nagarjunna wrote: »

After today’s Live ESO (13/02) I have decided that my Templar will be retired. I will not be running with her except to do Writs and Guild Store stuff (she’s my GS mule). I have way more fun tanking/dpsing on my Sorc/DK/NB. One less healer in the game!

For those of you who are sticking with the Templar, I would like to express my admiration and respect, you are completely awesome!

Pretty much the same thing for me. Probably skip right over Thieves Guild and see what DB brings instead. Templar being slow, awkward and clunky still(!) as their "unique" feeling is something I am tired of.

Unfortunately it is by far my most fleshed out character and I don't feel like grinding all the hundred other little things on another class. Taking a break or lumping it are my two options, and a break seems in order.

pecheckler

tinythinker wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

Guys and gals, I said it before, and I'll say it again. Just stop playing your Templars now. Roll something else up. I think I'm going to give a go at a Sorc for a while. I'm just going to retire my Templar to crafter status only, and do all of my playing on the new toon. It's really frustrating, as it was my only character, but I can't keep playing this craptastic disaster of a "balance" to my class.

GO ON STRIKE!

When there are no more Templars healing for Pledges, Trials, and PVP groups we'll see if ZOS finally takes notice. Let everyone else learn to heal groups, or sit in the LFG tool like so many flies in amber. Civil disobedience is our only recourse at this point in time since @Wroebel isn't listening.

I want you to get MAD! I'm a Templar dammit! My character has meaning! I want you to go your starter cities, and stand by the Wayshrines and yell, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore!"

https://youtube.com/watch?v=rGIY5Vyj4YM

Won't work. Too many new players will think it sounds fun from the description on the character creation screen. Too many old players have a lot invested in their character.

I have a thousand hours invested in my templar and less than 20 in other classes, yet i'm turning a sorcerer bank mule into a main character right now. I have no desire to play the laughing stock of the month (or entire Spring 2016 in this case).

Razorback174

I finally did it and unsubbed. And I've stuck around here since beta.

If only ZoS could listen to us "common folk" and not the elitist streamers and then cater to their every whim when it comes to changes.

I'm no game developer, not by a longshot, but I think I might just understand balancing. You do it incrementally, and small. Noticeable, but still making a difference. Instead we get hit with the most heavy-handed nerfs you could ever imagine.

Case in point: the stamina regen and blocking nerf. Anyone else remember that one with IC? I sure did when PUG tanks became nearly extinct.

I want to make it clear that I love my v16 templar healer dearly. It's the one class I've felt useful with, being able to keep everyone alive even though my damage was terrible. This update is only going to kill that role for me. What's left after that? Mediocre DPS? A tank with no survival skills at all?

I just can't understand the mentality of these massive, sweeping changes that throw the idea of "balance" to the wind.

tinythinker

Razorback174 wrote: »

I finally did it and unsubbed. And I've stuck around here since beta.

If only ZoS could listen to us "common folk" and not the elitist streamers and then cater to their every whim when it comes to changes.

I'm no game developer, not by a longshot, but I think I might just understand balancing. You do it incrementally, and small. Noticeable, but still making a difference. Instead we get hit with the most heavy-handed nerfs you could ever imagine.

Case in point: the stamina regen and blocking nerf. Anyone else remember that one with IC? I sure did when PUG tanks became nearly extinct.

I want to make it clear that I love my v16 templar healer dearly. It's the one class I've felt useful with, being able to keep everyone alive even though my damage was terrible. This update is only going to kill that role for me. What's left after that? Mediocre DPS? A tank with no survival skills at all?

I just can't understand the mentality of these massive, sweeping changes that throw the idea of "balance" to the wind.

Well, according to the interview today, the changes are to open things up and make things more fun/interesting. And conversations with guild leaders was mentioned in terms of which players were talked to. I'm sure popular streamers have input too but they weren't mentioned.

dodgehopper_ESO

wayfarerx wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

The only area where I feel DK healer is inferior is in the capacity of refilling your chums Stamina bar.

This is the only unique positive element of a templar healer anymore. Anything else unique about us is something we cannot do effectively (mobility, resource management, etc).

We are literally one new skill away from complete obsolescence.

Right, but at the same time there are healing factors on a DK that are actually better than a Templar. For instance Obsidian Shield is going to lower incoming damage on your team, but it is also feeding you stamina, it is also helping you build ultimate, which in turn will allow you to chuck out magma armor which is a far superior ultimate for a healer than Remembrance and by the way with Battle Roar will also help fuel all Resources. THAT IS SYNERGY. That is power. Giving the healer the ability to frontload protection on a team allows him the opportunity to get some breathing room and not spam BoL or (the idiot skill) as some people seem to think of it. Here's a newsflash, Templars don't have a shield they could share with the team, unless you consider Bone Shield worth using, but that has synergy requirements (and we all know how reliable that is) as well as functions only with Physical Damage. The ability to shield incoming damage is a huge boon to a healer and makes it so the healer doesn't actually have to heal as much. This is one reason my Tanky Templar use to be so tough before the Regeneration while Blocking Nerf. I use to be able to hold my shield up (not forever) and Slam Blazing Shield on people and just let them beat on me, talon me, fire whips, you name it. The fear through shield and stam regen nerfs were a big part of what really killed Templar tanking for me (Obviously PVP). It is not as though I couldn't build more heavily for block but the reality is that it just isn't as fun to be a Templar Tank in PVE any more and relegates your character to a Dungeon-Only use (and not Maelstrom). Templar just feels obsolete more and more, day by day.

danno8

Razorback174 wrote: »

I finally did it and unsubbed. And I've stuck around here since beta.

If only ZoS could listen to us "common folk" and not the elitist streamers and then cater to their every whim when it comes to changes.

I'm no game developer, not by a longshot, but I think I might just understand balancing. You do it incrementally, and small. Noticeable, but still making a difference. Instead we get hit with the most heavy-handed nerfs you could ever imagine.

Case in point: the stamina regen and blocking nerf. Anyone else remember that one with IC? I sure did when PUG tanks became nearly extinct.

I want to make it clear that I love my v16 templar healer dearly. It's the one class I've felt useful with, being able to keep everyone alive even though my damage was terrible. This update is only going to kill that role for me. What's left after that? Mediocre DPS? A tank with no survival skills at all?

I just can't understand the mentality of these massive, sweeping changes that throw the idea of "balance" to the wind.

What bothers me most of all is the dozens of threads, so many great ideas that were well thought out, not OP, and balanced and it was so much of it ignored.

They seem terrified of overbuffing Templar, to the point of always having to take something away any time they give.

Tankqull

Soris wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Question: Can Templars haz Major Expedition?

Response: Templars are designed to stand tall and not let people come into their house, but by nerfing Major Expedition you can almost sprint as fast as someone with that buff

In fact the problem is that they cant protect that house by standing still. Especially stamina builds, when you stand still, you die. Give old blazing shield and a miss chance then we can stand our ground

well sun shield could be changed to be awesome by simply change it to a skill comparable to backlash

for x seconds incoming dmg is reduced by value XX% the dmg reduced will be stored for its duration and reflected upon expiring up to a value of XXXXX.

that way temps would become significantly tankier as a part of the incoming dmg would be reduced, and the dmg return would actually be worthwhile unlike the current sunshield implementation especially in pvp.
to make it more tank desirable they could use the templars current dmg mitigation by its armor to be the value of the shields dmg mitigation. (so HA > MA > LA in terms of mitigation while LA > MA > HA in terms of reflected dmg)

tinythinker

danno8 wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

I finally did it and unsubbed. And I've stuck around here since beta.

If only ZoS could listen to us "common folk" and not the elitist streamers and then cater to their every whim when it comes to changes.

I'm no game developer, not by a longshot, but I think I might just understand balancing. You do it incrementally, and small. Noticeable, but still making a difference. Instead we get hit with the most heavy-handed nerfs you could ever imagine.

Case in point: the stamina regen and blocking nerf. Anyone else remember that one with IC? I sure did when PUG tanks became nearly extinct.

I want to make it clear that I love my v16 templar healer dearly. It's the one class I've felt useful with, being able to keep everyone alive even though my damage was terrible. This update is only going to kill that role for me. What's left after that? Mediocre DPS? A tank with no survival skills at all?

I just can't understand the mentality of these massive, sweeping changes that throw the idea of "balance" to the wind.

What bothers me most of all is the dozens of threads, so many great ideas that were well thought out, not OP, and balanced and it was so much of it ignored.

They seem terrified of overbuffing Templar, to the point of always having to take something away any time they give.

Hmmmm...

Hmmmm...

Hmmmm...

Have we considered the possibility that we are playing Templar wrong, and that when played the way that the combat team and QA testers do they are actually much better off than we think?

TipsyDrow

I and a whole slew of others warned ZOS devs about being arrogant in their stance on nerfing templar heals and not giving anything in recompense. No one in their right mind is going to use healing ritual in this game after it gets them wiped just once. No templar healer is ever going to be able to stand in your little rune circle to receive major mending, it will kill them. You have to be able to move constantly in this game. You want parity between classes for healing but give templars nothing in regards to parity DPS wise. You (ZOS devs) have ignored a very large part or your community in regards to feedback and then disdainfully spit in our faces with these changes.You will see a drop in your subs little by little now. This wont happen all at once but it wont take long until you see unanswered pleas in zone for heals and tanks. Casuals wont be able to complete dungeons, pledges or other group content. They will quit.

Signed,
Unhappy and Unsubbed.

tinythinker

This is from another thread but I wanted to make sure it was here, too, since this is the official feedback thread. I was summarizing here earlier as Wrobel spoke, but someone took the time after it aired to transcribe part of it and then examine what was said in a detailed way:

Inarre wrote: »

http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/44145484

"So, what we did with this update is we wanted you to have a little bit more breadth of ability usage if you really want to be dedicated to the healing role. So we started with making it so that their30% healing bonus from their passives now gives them the major healing buff so this means that all of the restoration staff abilities are also really good for a Templar because they all get that buff applied to them. And that 30%-- er, 25% (??) healing bonus, it applies now to you specifically instead of applying to your allies, so that means you have to just be standing in your area of protection, your allies do not have to anymore. So they can be running and going, You know... You just need to make sure youre somewhere in that circle somewhere and you get that healing bonus applied. So you'll end up getting more heals out of your breath of lifes, you know against these sort of smaller number of targets. Which makes it better as a single target nuke. Which is sort of the role we wanted to get for that.

Then we have the healing ritual ability for the Templar which we improved as a really good AOE heal. And the cast time is now reduced so its' easier to use that. Because in general the burst damage happens really quickly, like, you die really fast. So we wanted you to have time to hit the ability and heal someone, instead of... having team members die before it goes off."
--Eric Wrobel 2/12/2016





So... Let me get this straight.

We made a change to the Focused Healing Passive so that team members do not have to be in the radius of your ritual in order to received increased healing:
"Focused Healing: This passive ability now grants you the Major Mending buff while standing in your own Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage area effects and for up to 2/4 seconds after leaving them at Ranks I/II, instead of granting you 15/30% more healing to allies standing in your own Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage."

But we reduced the effectiveness of breath of life and made changes to Healing Ritual to increase it's use:
Healing Ritual: Reduced the cast time for this ability and its morphs by 25%, and reduced the healing done by 25%.

Healing Ritual: a 10 meter radius AOE heal.

TEN METERS

Wat?


Zos, don't you think this should be re-evaluated now, rather than later? Due to heals being capped at 6, the channel time on this skill, the over all idea that you do NOT want your allies to be tightly stacked in a group any longer (as stated in the same video) Why would we want 6 people standing in one 10 meter radius to be healed to full?

This directly contradicts removing the benefit of groups stacking within the 12 meter ritual.

blackcom90

Healing ritual doesn't work. My group tried it in trials too and half the time or some one it's too far away, or the healer die during the casting.
You can't avoid aoe, you can't heal more than 6 players, you can't do anything for 1.3 seconds... Do you know how crazy is this? Did you even try healing ritual on vdsa suffering every time a stupid mob interrupt you?

@Wrobel the change you made are not working. Face it or in 3 months you will have to see a burning forum and an angry boss ready to place someone else where you sit. You can't do these mistakes when bdo is about to come out and ppls will try it out of curiosity. In the live you said that you see the numbers behind the skill... what will you do when you will see the numbers stating that most of the templars players give up on this game?

tinythinker

blackcom90 wrote: »

Healing ritual doesn't work. My group tried it in trials too and half the time or some one it's too far away, or the healer die during the casting.
You can't avoid aoe, you can't heal more than 6 players, you can't do anything for 1.3 seconds... Do you know how crazy is this? Did you even try healing ritual on vdsa suffering every time a stupid mob interrupt you?

@Wrobel the change you made are not working. Face it or in 3 months you will have to see a burning forum and an angry boss ready to place someone else where you sit. You can't do these mistakes when bdo is about to come out and ppls will try it out of curiosity. In the live you said that you see the numbers behind the skill... what will you do when you will see the numbers stating that most of the templars players give up on this game?

What will he do then? He will give us, the Argonian templars, those who remained and persevered through the trials and tribulations, ALL of the things as rewards for our faithfulness. And then we shall rule over all.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

david.haypreub18_ESO wrote: »

Q: How about Toppling Charge? It is not 'completely fixed'... when will it be?

A: Our patch note wasn't specific enough. We fixed the issue of unresponsiveness when you weapon swapped (it would take a long time if you weapon swapped). Now it is more useful if you want to charge and swap. There are still some issues-- some weird terrain issues. But we'll inform users more to let them know when they can't charge. And there is also server lag so it can't draw path data for any abilities. So there's definitely more complicated issues... and they are complicated. We'd like to get them in but we're doing a lot of things.

Nothing about the Global Cool Down. He didn't even acknowledge it.

I love it. We had to wait for a major update to make the skill a little more responsive. No way to fit that into any other patch, much to complicated. Working on to much.

Animal_Mother

If there is a silver lining at least I know I am supposed to "stand my ground", now. We'll see how that goes this weekend on PTS.

acw37162

Animal_Mother wrote: »

If there is a silver lining at least I know I am supposed to "stand my ground", now. We'll see how that goes this weekend on PTS.

The best part of being a Templar right now is you get pick where you want to die. Preferably right on top of you 3 X 4 rune that is your house you can sleep there.

BalticBlues

Razorback174 wrote: »

balancing. You do it incrementally, and small.
Noticeable, but still making a difference.

THIS. I worked for many years in the gaming business. I never witnessed any everlasting title where devs were changing core mechanics every few months. Changing core mechanics is ok with a new version a the game, but not every three months. Can you imagine a game like Chess were the playing pieces receive new rules every three months? No serious player can work like that. This is not "balancing", this is tinkering.

I this would be any other game, I would quit instantly because of this tinkering.
However, this is an Elder Scrolls game. Do the responsible devs even know what this means?
It means an emotional connection, a connection you should not tinker with lightly.
ZOS, please reconsider the crippling changes before the customer relation is severely harmed.

dodgehopper_ESO

tinythinker wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

I finally did it and unsubbed. And I've stuck around here since beta.

If only ZoS could listen to us "common folk" and not the elitist streamers and then cater to their every whim when it comes to changes.

I'm no game developer, not by a longshot, but I think I might just understand balancing. You do it incrementally, and small. Noticeable, but still making a difference. Instead we get hit with the most heavy-handed nerfs you could ever imagine.

Case in point: the stamina regen and blocking nerf. Anyone else remember that one with IC? I sure did when PUG tanks became nearly extinct.

I want to make it clear that I love my v16 templar healer dearly. It's the one class I've felt useful with, being able to keep everyone alive even though my damage was terrible. This update is only going to kill that role for me. What's left after that? Mediocre DPS? A tank with no survival skills at all?

I just can't understand the mentality of these massive, sweeping changes that throw the idea of "balance" to the wind.

What bothers me most of all is the dozens of threads, so many great ideas that were well thought out, not OP, and balanced and it was so much of it ignored.

They seem terrified of overbuffing Templar, to the point of always having to take something away any time they give.

Hmmmm...

Hmmmm...

Hmmmm...

Have we considered the possibility that we are playing Templar wrong, and that when played the way that the combat team and QA testers do they are actually much better off than we think?

Only if the assumption is that you shouldn't be a Tank or Stamina Dps, but strictly be a healer.

AriBoh

Razorback174 wrote: »

I finally did it and unsubbed. And I've stuck around here since beta.
.

This is it, this is the only way they will listen. I unsubbed long ago after my http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored post failed and I think them losing a potential 25% of their subbing paycheck may finally open their eyes.

Ashamray

Tankqull wrote: »

well sun shield could be changed to be awesome by simply change it to a skill comparable to backlash

for x seconds incoming dmg is reduced by value XX% the dmg reduced will be stored for its duration and reflected upon expiring up to a value of XXXXX.

Cool.

nagarjunna

I've unsubbed too!

blackcom90

tinythinker wrote: »

]

What will he do then? He will give us, the Argonian templars, those who remained and persevered through the trials and tribulations, ALL of the things as rewards for our faithfulness. And then we shall rule over all.

Nope... he will take away the meaning of the templar class at every patch and while the other class, that already have their niche, will heal like a templar you sill have 2 choices:
1. Swap class and watch while the templar end it's existance in the game;
2. Change game

Frankly i hope a lot of ppls will unsub or leave the game... he will be the one roasted by the big head and MAYBE we will have a new employee with more head and less biased ideas.

blackcom90

BalticBlues wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

balancing. You do it incrementally, and small.
Noticeable, but still making a difference.

THIS. I worked for many years in the gaming business. I never witnessed any everlasting title where devs were changing core mechanics every few months. Changing core mechanics is ok with a new version a the game, but not every three months. Can you imagine a game like Chess were the playing pieces receive new rules every three months? No serious player can work like that. This is not "balancing", this is tinkering.

I this would be any other game, I would quit instantly because of this tinkering.
However, this is an Elder Scrolls game. Do the responsible devs even know what this means?
It means an emotional connection, a connection you should not tinker with lightly.
ZOS, please reconsider the crippling changes before the customer relation is severely harmed.

that's what a god dev team do... you take a rough concept and polish it patch after patch. Instead @Wrobel too a not so polished concept, trashed it and pushed a dirty new concept. Due to the fact that he is relatively new i think that i did it because he wanted to show off to his superiors... but if you take a game that had the same mechanics for 2 year and scrape them you will just start again from the step 0. Plus most of the players are not fool and see how he wasn't able to conceptualize a working templar class based on heal, support and constant dps.

GlassHalfFull

Spacemonkey wrote: »

I feel like @Wrobel just spat in my face

Perhaps Wrobel consults with the new TG Camel mount for ideas on class changes.

CP5

Trying to be productive while watching the show. What if we take the idea of templars being immune to hare cc's in the rune focus, and while in the focus they can activate a death's wind'esque aoe knock back with a decent dot, and would also apply a secondary dot to any enemies in their purifying ritual's aoe if the rune is in the purify's radius. If wrobel thinks templars should be unique by being able to stand their ground, make me want to move them, templars are doing that well enough on their own.

TRoclodyte

Dedricus wrote: »

Well Wrobel just said it. No changes for another 3 months. Ahahahaha.

I can't take it no more.

Pomaikai wrote: »

GO ON STRIKE!

I did it finally. I've been subscribed since pre-launch but I just cancelled my subscription.
Oh I'll keep playing for free, I have plenty of crowns stacked to buy like.... 5 or 6 DLCs, just from the crowns I got from subbing.

I'll now log on my templar once a day for crafting writs and that's it.

Wish I could have a class change and heal with a dragonknight...

Rudyard

aaannnddd here's that sorc twilight matriarch healing in action on pts (not my video) at least with someone testing it in pve:

https://youtu.be/OaG0cZ7mh7Y

tinythinker

Rudyard wrote: »

aaannnddd here's that sorc twilight matriarch healing in action on pts (not my video) at least with someone testing it in pve:

https://youtu.be/OaG0cZ7mh7Y

So is *no one* going to be really cheesy and say something like, "I used to be a healer once, but then I took a Wrobel to the knee?" C'mon, whether you love or hate the changes or are kind of meh, that's worth a smoan (a smile groan). As the Argonian proverb says, "It's better to swim in the river of laughter than drown in the bog of tears."