Official Feedback Thread for Templars

Zheg · February 2016

If templars had sorc mines and the old version of DK's cinder storm with miss chance, then I'd say Wrobel actually had something resembling this elusive 'house'.

Nifty2g · February 2016

Someone make a death of the templar and we might actually get a response. Probably not though
What is the point of this thread anyway, I see no feedback from the developers at all in here. I doubt Wrobel even came to read anything just said a bunch of stuff on Live that they weren't going to change anything.

I just make myself mad when I think about this

Mad levels rising

tinythinker · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

@tinythinker The problem is that there is not a single reason an enemy or player shouldn't enter a Templar's house. Making such an implausible statement makes Wrobel seem incompetent thus the anger and frustration you are seeing. If there were a few things in the update to back up the whole house story he gave us, I think there would be a lot less anger and frustration. Instead of making changes to backup such a ludicrous statement we got a 1% increase to our shield and +1 added to the radius of our ultimate. He seemed to be describing the vision for the dragonknight not the Templar.

I have repeatedly said in this thread that the vision doesn't match the skills. Hence the comprehensive review of Templar skills with suggestions for making what Wrobel said actually work in my last comment.

maxjapank · February 2016

TipsyDrow wrote: »

I and a whole slew of others warned ZOS devs about being arrogant in their stance on nerfing templar heals and not giving anything in recompense. No one in their right mind is going to use healing ritual in this game after it gets them wiped just once. No templar healer is ever going to be able to stand in your little rune circle to receive major mending, it will kil.

Solariken wrote: »

From ESO Live, it doesn't sound like @Wrobel is willing to implement any major skill changes for Templars this DLC. I know I'm not alone in the righteous rage I feel toward the combat team at the moment - that whole spiel about the "Templar's house" felt insulting (though I know insult was not Wrobel's intent) because on some level they MUST know that this design philosophy runs contrary to the game they have built, both PvP and PvE, where mobility is a top priority. It also feels like they aren't reading the great feedback we've been providing.

Earlier in this thread I put forth two very conservative suggestions for class passives which I feel will save the Templar class at least in the interim. I'm posting them again to provide more focus and discussion for these two ideas:

1. Minor Expedition (+10% movement) buff granted at all times while an Aedric Spear ability is slotted. [add to Burning Light?]

This buff would be completely unique to Templars, would fit nicely into the "crusader of light" persona and Aedric Spear line, and would go a long way toward relieving serious mobility woes for both flavors of Templar. It would be a very mild counter to Sorcerers and Nightblades running around with Major Evasion in addition to their powerful escapes. It has also become more important to add this in response to Dk's receiving a true class gap closer. Templars would not so desperately need Major Expedition with this passive and the incoming changes to sprint.

2. Minor Evasion (+10% dodge chance) buff granted for 4-8 seconds upon activation of a Dawn's Wrath ability. [add to Prism?]

This buff would also be completely unique to Templars, and would in a small way make up for the fact that Templars otherwise have to soak all of the damage thrown at them, whereas other classes have pretty reliable ways to escape damage. Damage mitigation/evasion for Templars is currently FAR behind all the other classes. I agree that the old Blinding Flashes caused some problems, but we desperately need something in its place - what we Templars really need is some evasion, even if it's only a measly 10% chance for a few seconds.

What do you think Templar brethren?

I think simple changes are what we should have focused on after the patch notes came out. All these in-depth changes, while nice on paper, are just literally impossible to get done within a month. While nice to theorycraft, it's just a waste of time given the limited time we have.

There is still time, though, to convince the Devs to make a few simple changes. Even buffing Restoring Spirit and adding spell power and physical resistance to Balanced Warrior shouldn't be that hard to do.

First things first. And keep it simple. For now.

Solariken · February 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

TipsyDrow wrote: »

I and a whole slew of others warned ZOS devs about being arrogant in their stance on nerfing templar heals and not giving anything in recompense. No one in their right mind is going to use healing ritual in this game after it gets them wiped just once. No templar healer is ever going to be able to stand in your little rune circle to receive major mending, it will kil.

Solariken wrote: »

From ESO Live, it doesn't sound like @Wrobel is willing to implement any major skill changes for Templars this DLC. I know I'm not alone in the righteous rage I feel toward the combat team at the moment - that whole spiel about the "Templar's house" felt insulting (though I know insult was not Wrobel's intent) because on some level they MUST know that this design philosophy runs contrary to the game they have built, both PvP and PvE, where mobility is a top priority. It also feels like they aren't reading the great feedback we've been providing.

Earlier in this thread I put forth two very conservative suggestions for class passives which I feel will save the Templar class at least in the interim. I'm posting them again to provide more focus and discussion for these two ideas:

1. Minor Expedition (+10% movement) buff granted at all times while an Aedric Spear ability is slotted. [add to Burning Light?]

This buff would be completely unique to Templars, would fit nicely into the "crusader of light" persona and Aedric Spear line, and would go a long way toward relieving serious mobility woes for both flavors of Templar. It would be a very mild counter to Sorcerers and Nightblades running around with Major Evasion in addition to their powerful escapes. It has also become more important to add this in response to Dk's receiving a true class gap closer. Templars would not so desperately need Major Expedition with this passive and the incoming changes to sprint.

2. Minor Evasion (+10% dodge chance) buff granted for 4-8 seconds upon activation of a Dawn's Wrath ability. [add to Prism?]

This buff would also be completely unique to Templars, and would in a small way make up for the fact that Templars otherwise have to soak all of the damage thrown at them, whereas other classes have pretty reliable ways to escape damage. Damage mitigation/evasion for Templars is currently FAR behind all the other classes. I agree that the old Blinding Flashes caused some problems, but we desperately need something in its place - what we Templars really need is some evasion, even if it's only a measly 10% chance for a few seconds.

What do you think Templar brethren?

I think simple changes are what we should have focused on after the patch notes came out. All these in-depth changes, while nice on paper, are just literally impossible to get done within a month. While nice to theorycraft, it's just a waste of time given the limited time we have.

There is still time, though, to convince the Devs to make a few simple changes. Even buffing Restoring Spirit and adding spell power and physical resistance to Balanced Warrior shouldn't be that hard to do.

First things first. And keep it simple. For now.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but the two things I proposed are not at all complicated to implement. We need tweaks and fixes elsewhere too, but the two things I outlined are what the class desperately needs, and sooner rather than later.

tinythinker · February 2016

Solariken wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

TipsyDrow wrote: »

I and a whole slew of others warned ZOS devs about being arrogant in their stance on nerfing templar heals and not giving anything in recompense. No one in their right mind is going to use healing ritual in this game after it gets them wiped just once. No templar healer is ever going to be able to stand in your little rune circle to receive major mending, it will kil.

Solariken wrote: »

From ESO Live, it doesn't sound like @Wrobel is willing to implement any major skill changes for Templars this DLC. I know I'm not alone in the righteous rage I feel toward the combat team at the moment - that whole spiel about the "Templar's house" felt insulting (though I know insult was not Wrobel's intent) because on some level they MUST know that this design philosophy runs contrary to the game they have built, both PvP and PvE, where mobility is a top priority. It also feels like they aren't reading the great feedback we've been providing.

Earlier in this thread I put forth two very conservative suggestions for class passives which I feel will save the Templar class at least in the interim. I'm posting them again to provide more focus and discussion for these two ideas:

1. Minor Expedition (+10% movement) buff granted at all times while an Aedric Spear ability is slotted. [add to Burning Light?]

This buff would be completely unique to Templars, would fit nicely into the "crusader of light" persona and Aedric Spear line, and would go a long way toward relieving serious mobility woes for both flavors of Templar. It would be a very mild counter to Sorcerers and Nightblades running around with Major Evasion in addition to their powerful escapes. It has also become more important to add this in response to Dk's receiving a true class gap closer. Templars would not so desperately need Major Expedition with this passive and the incoming changes to sprint.

2. Minor Evasion (+10% dodge chance) buff granted for 4-8 seconds upon activation of a Dawn's Wrath ability. [add to Prism?]

This buff would also be completely unique to Templars, and would in a small way make up for the fact that Templars otherwise have to soak all of the damage thrown at them, whereas other classes have pretty reliable ways to escape damage. Damage mitigation/evasion for Templars is currently FAR behind all the other classes. I agree that the old Blinding Flashes caused some problems, but we desperately need something in its place - what we Templars really need is some evasion, even if it's only a measly 10% chance for a few seconds.

What do you think Templar brethren?

I think simple changes are what we should have focused on after the patch notes came out. All these in-depth changes, while nice on paper, are just literally impossible to get done within a month. While nice to theorycraft, it's just a waste of time given the limited time we have.

There is still time, though, to convince the Devs to make a few simple changes. Even buffing Restoring Spirit and adding spell power and physical resistance to Balanced Warrior shouldn't be that hard to do.

First things first. And keep it simple. For now.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but the two things I proposed are not at all complicated to implement. We need tweaks and fixes elsewhere too, but the two things I outlined are what the class desperately needs, and sooner rather than later.

It's not either or. Many of the longer lists of proposals contain small helpful things that could go in for Thieve's Guild, other small things and medium things, that could go in for Dark Brotherhood, and still more things that could go in for the update after that. It's getting examples of effective, comprehensive change to the devs that many people are attempting to achieve, rather than getting it all in one patch. The frustration comes in when there is no indication that any of it -- the tweaks and the comprehensive overviews -- are being seen or remotely considered.

maxjapank · February 2016

Solariken wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

TipsyDrow wrote: »

I and a whole slew of others warned ZOS devs about being arrogant in their stance on nerfing templar heals and not giving anything in recompense. No one in their right mind is going to use healing ritual in this game after it gets them wiped just once. No templar healer is ever going to be able to stand in your little rune circle to receive major mending, it will kil.

Solariken wrote: »

From ESO Live, it doesn't sound like @Wrobel is willing to implement any major skill changes for Templars this DLC. I know I'm not alone in the righteous rage I feel toward the combat team at the moment - that whole spiel about the "Templar's house" felt insulting (though I know insult was not Wrobel's intent) because on some level they MUST know that this design philosophy runs contrary to the game they have built, both PvP and PvE, where mobility is a top priority. It also feels like they aren't reading the great feedback we've been providing.

Earlier in this thread I put forth two very conservative suggestions for class passives which I feel will save the Templar class at least in the interim. I'm posting them again to provide more focus and discussion for these two ideas:

1. Minor Expedition (+10% movement) buff granted at all times while an Aedric Spear ability is slotted. [add to Burning Light?]

This buff would be completely unique to Templars, would fit nicely into the "crusader of light" persona and Aedric Spear line, and would go a long way toward relieving serious mobility woes for both flavors of Templar. It would be a very mild counter to Sorcerers and Nightblades running around with Major Evasion in addition to their powerful escapes. It has also become more important to add this in response to Dk's receiving a true class gap closer. Templars would not so desperately need Major Expedition with this passive and the incoming changes to sprint.

2. Minor Evasion (+10% dodge chance) buff granted for 4-8 seconds upon activation of a Dawn's Wrath ability. [add to Prism?]

This buff would also be completely unique to Templars, and would in a small way make up for the fact that Templars otherwise have to soak all of the damage thrown at them, whereas other classes have pretty reliable ways to escape damage. Damage mitigation/evasion for Templars is currently FAR behind all the other classes. I agree that the old Blinding Flashes caused some problems, but we desperately need something in its place - what we Templars really need is some evasion, even if it's only a measly 10% chance for a few seconds.

What do you think Templar brethren?

I think simple changes are what we should have focused on after the patch notes came out. All these in-depth changes, while nice on paper, are just literally impossible to get done within a month. While nice to theorycraft, it's just a waste of time given the limited time we have.

There is still time, though, to convince the Devs to make a few simple changes. Even buffing Restoring Spirit and adding spell power and physical resistance to Balanced Warrior shouldn't be that hard to do.

First things first. And keep it simple. For now.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but the two things I proposed are not at all complicated to implement. We need tweaks and fixes elsewhere too, but the two things I outlined are what the class desperately needs, and sooner rather than later.

I purposely quoted your post because you have the same thinking. I should have said so. Sorry.

acw37162 · February 2016

@tinythinker awesome post

Really like the idea of a bleed effect from jabs or fro one of the passive a in the skill line, makes a lot of sense. Jab someone with a spear and the might bleed.

A cauterize effect passive where burning light procs fire damage would be interesting also.

Here's a though about backlash and dark flare,

Dark Flare added effect; if a target is marked with backlash Dark Flare takes a more direct (read liner) path to target just a thought for synergy not really well fleashed out

Leon119 · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The thing I don't get is the Eric actually speaks like his has a grasp of the Meta and the basic play-style of what people do, but when it comes to talking about templars, it sounds like he has no experience playing them and how awkward they fit into that Meta... There is a serious disconnect between what ZoS thinks a templar can do and what templars are actually doing in competitive situations

kaalmoth wrote: »

I kinda like the king of my house story he served us. BUT, it would be cool to have facts to back it up. Right now, what do templar gain in their tiny houses others don't have and do fear?

phillyboy7897 wrote: »

What wrobel is saying is possible but to sit still and face tank everything For more than 2 seconds requires serious mitigation, like way way more than is possible in the game.

He's actually throwing out some cool concepts and I agree that class distinction is important, but when it comes down to the numbers the ability changes don't match up with our class concept. I.e. the Templars house winds up being about the same defensive capability as other classes achieve while mobile.

I agree with these comments, like a cyphergram

Eric actually has a grasp of the Meta but it sounds like he has no experience playing [Templars] and how awkwardly they fit into that Meta. I kinda like the king of my house story he served us. What Wrobel is saying is possible [but] it requires serious mitigation. He's actually throwing out some cool concepts but the ability changes don't match up with our class concept.

I know there's a lot of anger toward the combat team, and Eric is both the lead and the public face of that team, but a lot of the venom tossed his way recently has been beyond ridiculous. I don't blame or criticize people for unsubbing or finding another game to play if they aren't happy with the direction of ESO, but I would hope that those who are staying with/supporting the game can still find ways to be constructive.

If you look at NBs, Sorcs, and DKs, while not all changes proposed/made are popular, they do seem to fit the changing meta pretty well. Why this isn't as true, from (many) players' perspectives, for Templars is indeed a mystery. So I don't buy the "Eric and the combat team are utterly inept" argument. If so, why aren't the other classes in the same boat as Templar? (As for stam class changes, he said yesterday they are working on those for Dark Brotherhood.)

So, now that we know what emphasis/direction/vision has for the Templar, those who still feel like theorycrafting might want to aim for suggestions on how that could be better realized. I invite someone from the combat team to poke their head in once in a while just to confirm this thread is still being read, even though it probably means lots of tagging and replies begging for or demanding this or that

Now for the TL;DR Section That Goes Through All of the Skill Lines

With the vision I suspected for Templars confirmed, I'm going to have some fun with this. Even if the combat team decided lots of further changes were necessary, most of these wouldn't be addable in time for Update 9 (Thieve's Guild), and some would have to wait for Update 10 (Dark Brotherhood) and beyond. All numbers given are adjustable but sound better than always using "x" and "y".

Aedric Spear

The following proposed changes emphasize controlling and punishing opponents who try to enter "the Templar's house". They involve more CC and more synergy within the skill line. If Templars are to be slower and less mobile, they need more threats to deploy against single and multiple targets trying to enter their space. The suggestions were considered for both PvE and PvP. I am being mindful of Stamplars but not focusing on changing any morphs to stamina costs at present.

Ultimate: Radial Sweep

The Empowering Sweep morph works for being tanky in PvE on large pulls an the extra meter it will get as part of buff to the base ability is fine, but the other morph needs work. (@Cinbri has suggested replacing the formula for the amount of damage mitigation for Empowering with Major Protection, which would have the advantage of always having at least 30% mitigation and requiring fewer calculations by the server. On the other hand, mitigation would always be capped at 30%, too.)

Crescent Sweep is meant to be a small burst+dot focusing on enemies in front of the player (33% more damage to enemies in front of the caster on the initial hit). It's more like a really strong AoE regular skill than an ultimate but that is probably tied to it being relatively cheap. Add Minor Berserk (+8% to all damage) to the caster for the duration of the ability (6 seconds) when outside of the ability's AoE range and give Major Berserk (+25% to all damage) while the caster is inside the 5 meter area of effect. Thus it pays for the caster to try to protect her "house" but recognizes there is still often a need for some degree of mobility.

Active Skills

Puncturing Strikes

Keep it like it is for 2.3.x with the new snare or drop the snare, either way, but add either a bleed effect, a burning effect, or a 2 second knockdown versus off balance targets. This fits well with the effect Toppling Charge already has on active casters and also with the proposed change to Blazing Spear described below. There needs to be more inter-skill synergy for Templar. I had written up the bleed vs. off balance targets idea for Piercing Javelin to give it more value, but it was too clumsy work with this idea as it is a ranged skill. Strikes is the bread and butter ability of a "not in my house"/"stand tall" playstyle for Templars so it makes sense as the locus of a skill line synergy.

Piercing Javelin

The longer distance (and thus increased damage) for Aurora Javelin in 2.3.x is nice. I was one of those requesting this, so my thanks. But what if it also snared the target by 35-40% for 3 seconds. For the "not in my house" feel, such a snare would be a real boost, since keeping enemies at a distance and only letting them approach on your terms is valuable tool for that playstyle. Yes, Binding Javelin has a 3 second knockdown but Aurora still gets the bonus damage for distance traveled and now both can help dictate when to engage in melee range and offer an escape hatch if needed.

Spear Shards

Great ability. Let's talk the "not in my house" model, though. How about we have Blazing Spear still stun one target for two seconds but set 2-4 others off balance? Would work well with the proposed change to Puncturing Strikes above (Blazing Spear --> Strikes...Strikes...Strikes...). For Luminous Shards still have one target disoriented but snare 2-4 others by 25-30% for 4 seconds. As with the recommended change to Piercing Javelin, this helps control who gets near the Templar and gives more options for an escape attempt.

Sun Shield

Wrobel mentioned he was planning on looking into tanky skills, and name checked Sun Shield. He said that he doesn't want to go back to the days of unkillable tanks. Fair enough. But if we are taking the "not in my house" approach to skill reviews, this needs buffed. Increase shield strength from 27% to 35% of caster's health for Sun Shield and its morphs. Either that, or, if there is concern about super-high health stacking tanks being OP, have it scale off of the highest stat between magicka and stamina. I prefer the tanky/health option, but whatever. The better changes are just below.

Give a 35-40% increase to the damage done on activation for the base ability and for Radiant Ward, while stunning those caught in the blast of the activation of the latter for 2 seconds. Knock down enemies in range of the AoE damage effect when Blazing Shield explodes for 2 seconds. You want to play in a Templar's house? You play by the Templar's rules. These changes make the 6 second duration an asset rather than a liability for Blazing Shield, and Radiant Ward can stun again once CC immunity wears off, which would be only a couple of seconds after the max duration of the effect.

Passive Skills

Piercing Spear

Buff the bonus damage against blocking targets from 5/10% to either 7/15% or 10/20% and have the bonus work against shielded targets as well. This and the suggested change to Spear Wall below help to punish targets who stay close and fight and also helps to flesh out the Templar's distinctiveness. Players will start to actually think "Blocking/shielding up isn't going to work as well against Templars." This change also makes more of the slower moving/functioning Templar ranged abilities, such as those from the Dawn's Wrath skill line. This will push enemy players into wanting to dodge more and stay mobile.

Spear Wall

Add (a chance to) inflict Minor Maim, which gives a 15% damage reduction, to targets whose melee attacks are successfully blocked. If it is a chance-based proc rather than automatic the odds should be no lower than 25% and preferably would be 50%. But given that it's just versus melee, it ought to be 100%/automatic. If Templars are to continue to have limited mobility and fight in rune circles and healing circles and such while they defend their "houses", there needs to be more mitigation. If you hit a spear wall, it should sting. Get up in a Templar's face and you'll bleed.

Spear Wall

I agree with @Hymzir that this should proc on shields, and along with the above suggested change to Piercing Spear would help give Templars a small edge as a shield buster class.

Balanced Warrior

This should be updated to include Physical Damage in the 1000/2000 resist bonus, especially in a melee-focused/area of denial setup for "stand tall" game play considering that melee weapons do, ya know, physical damage. To be fully "balanced", Spell Damage would need to be included in the 3%/6% bonus as well.

Dawn's Wrath

The following proposed changes emphasize debuffing opponents and throwing hard hitting attacks at those standing outside of the "Templar's house".
Ultimate: Nova

Great ability, great morphs, just drop the cost to the 200-220 range.

Active Skills

Sun Fire
So meh. Sooooooo soooooo meh. Now, I know there are builds that use the Reflective Light morph as part of a fire-damage DPS build, and it can be useful while leveling, so good. But Vampire's Bane? Making the DoT last longer or burn hotter as a single target skill is a waste, and this is mentioned whenever a comprehensive review by a player pops up because we've all tried it and figured, "I could just burn the same target down faster with [X, Y, or Z] ability before the final tick of VB even hits. And sure, a snare, but that's what the Aedric Spear skill line should be for (see above).

How about having it do one-shot burst damage that lower resistance to elemental damage for those seven seconds? Give it a 15% chance to proc for an extra 25-30% damage, like a magicka version of a Fighter's Guild skill. Vampire's Bane indeed. And the Enduring Rays passive would simply extend the lower resistance to elemental damage. I used to say for months to just swap "Major Sorcery" for "Major Prophecy" as the fix for VB, but with time to think about it more, I came up with and now favor the burst (into flame) damage fix instead.

Solar Flare/b]
So close, yet so far away. So close, yet so far away. We dream of (hitting our targets) tomorrow, but we're stuck in today... Sorry, Hall and Oates moment, there. But I would trade the extra damage given in 2.3.x to Dark Flare to disorient a target upon impact. At least if you managed to hit with the first one you would have a better chance of landing a second. But that still requires a target not to dodge roll away from the first projectile as it slowly arcs across the sky with a tell sound that says "double tap a direction key". My suggestions for extra CC in the Aedric Spear line can create some new openings for Dark Flare, but it's unclear whether those will be enough.

That's why I still like the idea of having it chase you like a heating seeking missile. That makes up for the clumsy cast, high arc, long flight, clear warning sound effect, etc. A target could still block the projectile to reduce damage taken, reflect it for no damage, or absorb it for little or no damage. A target could even outrun its range and escape. But the target couldn't dodge roll out of it. Keep the defile and empower, dump the new damage boost for 2.3.x, and give Templars a target-lock missile that can debuff an enemy group if the target doesn't get some distance from allies. A DK or any player with a sword and board can reflect/absorb it, a NB or Sorc can take the first hit and either CC the caster or cloak/streak away, and a fellow Templar can pop Eclipse on you. Risk and reward, but better than the current model since the first hit, even if bounced back at you, will actually land where you intended.

With regard to Solar Bore-age, I know a very few people who use it but I haven't since I first leveled up my magicka Templar a long time ago. It sounds great, a PBAoE that empowers your next attack. What a great skill to spam! But maybe there was a concern that would make it OP, so it's another "clunky instant cast" skill. Why not give it Major Defile as well like Dark Flare? One is a ranged projectile that defiles nearby allies of the target, one is a PBAoE that could do the same thing at greater risk up close. If not defile, then some other buff, debuff, or status effect to make it a competitor with Impulse from the Destruction Staff skill line.

Backlash

I haven't used Power of the Light since it became a stamina morph, at which point I switched to Purifying Light. I've used Backlash in one form or another when doing four person dungeons since I started playing a Templar, and it was always a nice DPS/HPS boost. I've heard some people say those boosts have been decreased with 2.3.x but I haven't tested that yet myself.

Eclipse

Give Eclipse and Total Dark a penalty (like 3x normal damage that would otherwise occur at the end of the ability) for breaking free. Still only one target allowed at a time and reflecting projectiles as per 2.3.1 mechanics. This forces a human opponent to decide between using non-projectile abilities and taking the extra damage. Bosses who are immune automatically "break free" and take damage, and the player has to wait the same period as a CC immunity timer to recast on a boss.

Unstable Core gets the bubble back, works like the 2.3x mechanics, but stuns the primary target upon exploding. The bubble keeps a human opponent from knowing which morph was used. The stun makes up for the lackluster damage and wait time. I really tried using it on the PTS but I had to kind of wait and slow down my fights for it to register before trash mobs were killed. Otherwise they died before it went off. Very lackluster. The stun also has some use in PvP, as that CC, rather than extra damage, is the break free penalty for players. Core also need to be added to the no fly list for Enduring Rays.

Radiant Destruction

Radiant Oppression great. Just add "healing effect increased up to 50% of damage done based on your current magicka" to Radiant Glory. If you want to add a stamina morph for this class execute, Oppression would make sense as long as magicka builds get the scaled healing just mentioned for Glory.

Passive Skills

Enduring Rays

Unstable Core, in it's 2.3.x incarnation, needs to be one of the skills excluded from this passive.

Restoring Spirit

I guess there is zero chance of every returning to the version of getting resources back per cast, even at a smaller percentage. So, straight buff it is the the cost reduction numbers to make Templars competitive. I've seen various numbers tossed out, but anything would be a significant improvement.

Restoring Light

The proposed changes are intended to create more viable options for Templar healing besides Breath of Life, Repentance, and Cleansing Ritual.
Ultimate: Rite of Passage
I rarely see either morph of this ability used outside of PvE. Sometimes I and some healer Templars will use Remembrance in group PvE play for bosses that have high damage phases, while others use Practiced Incantation and its slightly longer channel time (an extra two seconds). Perhaps Practiced Incantation could be altered to be the PvP-preferred version. For example, by extending the caster's immunity to crowd control effect to the allies being healed for the duration of the ability.

Active Skills

Rushed Ceremony

I'm not too bothered by the Breath of Life nerf. This is one of three places in this skill line I will mention a suggestion by Hymzir, though, since they deserve recognition: Give BoL back three targets but have them all at the lesser value while making the base ability and both morphs prioritize the caster.

Healing Ritual

I've had so many different ideas for this over the past couple of years, just all over the place. So I'll start with some ideas other people have offered:

A version you cast before the fight begins from @Faulgor
Healing Ritual: Cast restorative blessing on nearby allies. Restore 5% maximum Health every second for 30 seconds. 3 second cast time.

Lingering Ritual: Cast restorative blessing on nearby allies. Restore 5% maximum Health every second for 45 seconds. 3 second cast time.

Ritual of Rebirth: Cast restorative blessing on nearby allies. Restore 5% maximum Health every second for 30 seconds. 3 second cast time. Allies with less than 20% Health are healed back to 50%. Effect is removed thereafter.

These changes would offer a heal that fills an as of yet unfilled role.
- Strong buff that is designed to be pre-cast out of combat
- Offers an indirect tool for magicka sustain, because the damage "pre-healed" before combat doesn't have to be healed actively later
- Great utility for builds not focusing on magicka/spell damage, such as tanks and stamina builds

A Xivkyn Lacerator version from @Leon119
Personally i would love if healing ritual worked like the xivkyn lacerators's in WGT heal.
Leave it as it is with cast time at base skill and when cast makes an AoE centered around caster that functions as a HoT
Make morphs something along the line of:
● grant regen
● larger radius
● longer duration
● no cast time
● ect

A "turn it into a lesser form of Rite of Passgae" version (and replace Rite of Passage with something else) by @Talyena
Bump it's time and heal back to where it was. Bump the range to 28m. Make it interruptible and make it stop channeling if you move (but don't take away the ability to move). So if you only get to cast it for one second, you get off half the heal. Have it cap at 4-6 targets and work out the costs and have it be group only.

A "make it into a mobile HoT with instant cast" from @halfthepeopletalkingabouthealingritual
Make it a powerful hot that is instant-cast.

Here are my favorites from my own theorycrafting for your consideration:

"The Light"
In this new version of Healing Ritual, while you walk about praying and healing you are surrounded in a bright swirling glow as your healing energy pours out to nearby allies. You blind your foes, getting Major Evasion for two seconds (or Major Protection for two seconds or inflicting all nearby enemies with Major Maim for four seconds) starting when you press the button to cast the spell. The heal also begins instantly while you are doing a casting animation and still self-snared. The healing is reduced by 20% or so to compensate for the buff. For Lingering Ritual a smallish HoT applies to allies within the ability radius for 8 seconds after the cast time ends (centered on the caster who is no longer self-snared). Ritual of Rebirth restores one quarter of missing stamina and magicka to two nearby allies other than the caster over the course of three seconds. You still get 30% more healing from this spell.

"The Buff"
In another alternative I've also been considering, you still get the swirling light and self-snare cast time as per "The Light", but in this case the caster's allies gains Major Protection for 6 seconds or until the caster causes damage. Like "The Light", healing starts when casting begins, as does the buff. Basically the animation is for show not a delay in the heal. As with "The Light" the healing done and/or cost would be adjusted appropriately for balance. The morphs could stay the same as they have been since launch or could be tweaked. For example, Lingering Ritual could extend the buffs to 8 seconds, while Ritual of Rebirth could add Major Heroism or something similar alongside Major Protection. You still get 30% more healing from this spell.

"The Mover"
Basically, this is just like "The Buff" but it has no self-snare. So the heal still starts when you hit the button but you are as free to move as always. The base healing take a bigger hit to compensate, but, you are still giving those buffs to your allies while getting healed yourself. They can be the same buffs from "The Buff" or something else. You still get 30% more healing from this spell.

"The Toggle"
Most of my ideas for Healing Ritual have been based on keeping the cast time and the self-snare. This one doesn't. Rather than a specific number of health points that scale with spell damage, max magicka, and healing buffs, have it restore a percentage of their missing health, magicka, and stamina over time as a toggle. Toggling the ability on would drain health from the caster while restoring allies. The exact percentage of resources restored and the ratio of health drained to health restored would need to be based on internal testing to make sure it wasn't too strong or too weak. But given the risk and self-sacrifice, it would be a really big heal. There is still a risk, but not from the self-snare. Afterward the caster would have a reduction in healing received for a brief time to keep this ability from being abused.

Ritual of Rebirth would reduced the reduction in healing and buff health recovery. The Lingering Ritual Morph would give a delayed heal like it always has, but would be for a percentage of the healing done during the toggle.

At first glance, having a healer risk themselves by trading health for healing may sound like a death sentence for the healer, but again it would be balanced against doing a significant amount of healing to a fixed percentage of missing health. It would have a fast drain and tick for larger percentages of missing health over time. You could still run, sprint, and roll-dodge while saving a 12 player raid on the verge of wiping. And in any case, if you die you can always be rezzed. Hence the need to balance risk and reward to not make it a stealth easy mode mechanic where you just heal everyone to 100% while dying and get a rez after. Since the percentage of health restored goes up over time and since you can't cast anything else (other skills are locked out while channeling), just relying on this all of the time would be waste. It would be a great "Oh crap
button", though.

The cousin to this concept is to drain magicka super-fast instead of caster health, but it's more boring and is like a dull group version of Dark Deal. But it might be workable with some tweaking.

"The Replacement"
If all else fails, just dump this ability and figure out something else to put in its place. Use your imagination and go nuts.

Restoring Aura

Repentance continues to be a good skill for many builds, while Radiant Aura continues to be a disappointment. Change it to passively give allies the same buffs the Templar receives for slotting it: "Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Regeneration by 10%." For a bigger change, have activation give different buffs like Minor Evasion (5% dodge chance), Minor Protection (8% damage mitigation), and Minor Force (15% bonus to critical damage). With a 5% chance to dodge an enemy attack + 8% direct mitigation, allies are taking noticeably less damage, all the while having their stats regen faster (and not in conflict with tripots) and doing more damage. Subtle sounding? Yes. Helpful? Definitely.

Cleansing Ritual

If I were to suggest any changes, just follow Hymzir's rec to give one cleanse upon cast and get further cleanses, as per morph tooltip, with the synergy. For extra firepower, @Radburn suggests altering Extended Ritual to have enemies in its AoE take burning damage over time while they remain rather than lasting a few second longer. I like the idea, and technically a good name would be Purifying Ritual, but well, you can see the problems as that is already the name of the other morph. So, good options would include Sanctifying Ritual, Chastening Ritual, and Cauterizing Ritual. I am partial to that last one.

Rune Focus

I like this ability. I really do. I've been practicing fighting inside of it against things like the crossed-sword generals in the IC sewers. And it is *really* hard to stay inside of it: knockdowns that knock you back, AoE, AoE, AoE, targets zipping around, AoE, frontal conal attacks, AoE... the buffs the rune gives are awesome *if* you can stay inside of it. And even if you do, immoveable pots, Shuffle, and blocking only go so far for a magicka build. Meanwhile stamina builds need mobility to be viable.

So how about expanding the rune's radius a meter and either adding in an extra two seconds of CC immunity or being immune to soft CC if you manage to stay in the little circle? Also extend the length of ability (16s for base, for 24s morphs). As per the suggestion by Hymzir, allow all buffs to extend for 8s while outside the rune and to be renewed if you get back in before the 8s expire. Hence the new durations in multiples of eight.

Passive Skills

Mending

Like many Templar healers, I would love to see this passive work on all healing abilities, not just Restoring Light abilities, like it used to do. But the whole "Templars are too good at healing what about Sorcs/NBs/DKs?" mantra goes directly against this.

Light Weaver

Suggestion if kept in it's current form:

Have this passive grant 20 ultimate, not 2, when allies under 60% health are affected by Healing Ritual. Even if players spam it, there is little chance of exploiting. Cheap ultimates are cheap, so it doesn't matter if you charge them a bit faster. And getting to the costlier ultimates faster makes Healing Ritual more appealing.

How it would look if re-imagined:

Increase the value of critical heals by 10/20%.

I do like the 12500 Armor and Spell Resistance while channeling Right of Passage that comes with the current version of Light Weaver, so if we go with a re-imagined version, just stick this protection buff under Focused Healing or Master Ritualist.

Great ideas. About sweeps though. I think its strong enough with just the damage and the snare IF they make you able to tun while casting it.
Alot of your suggestions cover pvp but would be nice to have some utility options for pve as well.
Like making luminous shards give back magicka as well as stamina like blazing morph does.

BalticBlues · February 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

All these in-depth changes, while nice on paper,
are just literally impossible to get done within a month. [...]it's just a waste of time

Do you know how many months ago ZOS asked for suggestions?
Do you know how many threads and suggestions ZOS received?

From all of these suggestions, asking for better mobility and making skills useful,
the devs come up with: crippling skills that actually have been useful...

Premium mobility, premium dps, premium shields and premium healing:
ZOS listened, you now can get all of this: retire your Templar and reroll a Sorc

ZOS, please dump all of you Templar "plans". It is not getting better, at least not for Templars.
Just leave this beaten class untouched, as it is now on Live, and we will not ask again. DEAL?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buvtE4tNShU

blackcom90 · February 2016

Cinbri wrote: »

I won't comment anything till next incremental patch, coz all i can say for now is insults. Must watch many Witcher tibutes to chill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zWFj-KNusA

ok. now i love you for the video... i f...ing love the witcher!

tinythinker · February 2016

Leon119 wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

The thing I don't get is the Eric actually speaks like his has a grasp of the Meta and the basic play-style of what people do, but when it comes to talking about templars, it sounds like he has no experience playing them and how awkward they fit into that Meta... There is a serious disconnect between what ZoS thinks a templar can do and what templars are actually doing in competitive situations

kaalmoth wrote: »

I kinda like the king of my house story he served us. BUT, it would be cool to have facts to back it up. Right now, what do templar gain in their tiny houses others don't have and do fear?

phillyboy7897 wrote: »

What wrobel is saying is possible but to sit still and face tank everything For more than 2 seconds requires serious mitigation, like way way more than is possible in the game.

He's actually throwing out some cool concepts and I agree that class distinction is important, but when it comes down to the numbers the ability changes don't match up with our class concept. I.e. the Templars house winds up being about the same defensive capability as other classes achieve while mobile.

I agree with these comments, like a cyphergram

Eric actually has a grasp of the Meta but it sounds like he has no experience playing [Templars] and how awkwardly they fit into that Meta. I kinda like the king of my house story he served us. What Wrobel is saying is possible [but] it requires serious mitigation. He's actually throwing out some cool concepts but the ability changes don't match up with our class concept.

I know there's a lot of anger toward the combat team, and Eric is both the lead and the public face of that team, but a lot of the venom tossed his way recently has been beyond ridiculous. I don't blame or criticize people for unsubbing or finding another game to play if they aren't happy with the direction of ESO, but I would hope that those who are staying with/supporting the game can still find ways to be constructive.

If you look at NBs, Sorcs, and DKs, while not all changes proposed/made are popular, they do seem to fit the changing meta pretty well. Why this isn't as true, from (many) players' perspectives, for Templars is indeed a mystery. So I don't buy the "Eric and the combat team are utterly inept" argument. If so, why aren't the other classes in the same boat as Templar? (As for stam class changes, he said yesterday they are working on those for Dark Brotherhood.)

So, now that we know what emphasis/direction/vision has for the Templar, those who still feel like theorycrafting might want to aim for suggestions on how that could be better realized. I invite someone from the combat team to poke their head in once in a while just to confirm this thread is still being read, even though it probably means lots of tagging and replies begging for or demanding this or that

Now for the TL;DR Section That Goes Through All of the Skill Lines

With the vision I suspected for Templars confirmed, I'm going to have some fun with this. Even if the combat team decided lots of further changes were necessary, most of these wouldn't be addable in time for Update 9 (Thieve's Guild), and some would have to wait for Update 10 (Dark Brotherhood) and beyond. All numbers given are adjustable but sound better than always using "x" and "y".

Aedric Spear

The following proposed changes emphasize controlling and punishing opponents who try to enter "the Templar's house". They involve more CC and more synergy within the skill line. If Templars are to be slower and less mobile, they need more threats to deploy against single and multiple targets trying to enter their space. The suggestions were considered for both PvE and PvP. I am being mindful of Stamplars but not focusing on changing any morphs to stamina costs at present.

Ultimate: Radial Sweep

The Empowering Sweep morph works for being tanky in PvE on large pulls an the extra meter it will get as part of buff to the base ability is fine, but the other morph needs work. (@Cinbri has suggested replacing the formula for the amount of damage mitigation for Empowering with Major Protection, which would have the advantage of always having at least 30% mitigation and requiring fewer calculations by the server. On the other hand, mitigation would always be capped at 30%, too.)

Crescent Sweep is meant to be a small burst+dot focusing on enemies in front of the player (33% more damage to enemies in front of the caster on the initial hit). It's more like a really strong AoE regular skill than an ultimate but that is probably tied to it being relatively cheap. Add Minor Berserk (+8% to all damage) to the caster for the duration of the ability (6 seconds) when outside of the ability's AoE range and give Major Berserk (+25% to all damage) while the caster is inside the 5 meter area of effect. Thus it pays for the caster to try to protect her "house" but recognizes there is still often a need for some degree of mobility.

Active Skills

Puncturing Strikes

Keep it like it is for 2.3.x with the new snare or drop the snare, either way, but add either a bleed effect, a burning effect, or a 2 second knockdown versus off balance targets. This fits well with the effect Toppling Charge already has on active casters and also with the proposed change to Blazing Spear described below. There needs to be more inter-skill synergy for Templar. I had written up the bleed vs. off balance targets idea for Piercing Javelin to give it more value, but it was too clumsy work with this idea as it is a ranged skill. Strikes is the bread and butter ability of a "not in my house"/"stand tall" playstyle for Templars so it makes sense as the locus of a skill line synergy.

Piercing Javelin

The longer distance (and thus increased damage) for Aurora Javelin in 2.3.x is nice. I was one of those requesting this, so my thanks. But what if it also snared the target by 35-40% for 3 seconds. For the "not in my house" feel, such a snare would be a real boost, since keeping enemies at a distance and only letting them approach on your terms is valuable tool for that playstyle. Yes, Binding Javelin has a 3 second knockdown but Aurora still gets the bonus damage for distance traveled and now both can help dictate when to engage in melee range and offer an escape hatch if needed.

Spear Shards

Great ability. Let's talk the "not in my house" model, though. How about we have Blazing Spear still stun one target for two seconds but set 2-4 others off balance? Would work well with the proposed change to Puncturing Strikes above (Blazing Spear --> Strikes...Strikes...Strikes...). For Luminous Shards still have one target disoriented but snare 2-4 others by 25-30% for 4 seconds. As with the recommended change to Piercing Javelin, this helps control who gets near the Templar and gives more options for an escape attempt.

Sun Shield

Wrobel mentioned he was planning on looking into tanky skills, and name checked Sun Shield. He said that he doesn't want to go back to the days of unkillable tanks. Fair enough. But if we are taking the "not in my house" approach to skill reviews, this needs buffed. Increase shield strength from 27% to 35% of caster's health for Sun Shield and its morphs. Either that, or, if there is concern about super-high health stacking tanks being OP, have it scale off of the highest stat between magicka and stamina. I prefer the tanky/health option, but whatever. The better changes are just below.

Give a 35-40% increase to the damage done on activation for the base ability and for Radiant Ward, while stunning those caught in the blast of the activation of the latter for 2 seconds. Knock down enemies in range of the AoE damage effect when Blazing Shield explodes for 2 seconds. You want to play in a Templar's house? You play by the Templar's rules. These changes make the 6 second duration an asset rather than a liability for Blazing Shield, and Radiant Ward can stun again once CC immunity wears off, which would be only a couple of seconds after the max duration of the effect.

Passive Skills

Piercing Spear

Buff the bonus damage against blocking targets from 5/10% to either 7/15% or 10/20% and have the bonus work against shielded targets as well. This and the suggested change to Spear Wall below help to punish targets who stay close and fight and also helps to flesh out the Templar's distinctiveness. Players will start to actually think "Blocking/shielding up isn't going to work as well against Templars." This change also makes more of the slower moving/functioning Templar ranged abilities, such as those from the Dawn's Wrath skill line. This will push enemy players into wanting to dodge more and stay mobile.

Spear Wall

Add (a chance to) inflict Minor Maim, which gives a 15% damage reduction, to targets whose melee attacks are successfully blocked. If it is a chance-based proc rather than automatic the odds should be no lower than 25% and preferably would be 50%. But given that it's just versus melee, it ought to be 100%/automatic. If Templars are to continue to have limited mobility and fight in rune circles and healing circles and such while they defend their "houses", there needs to be more mitigation. If you hit a spear wall, it should sting. Get up in a Templar's face and you'll bleed.

Spear Wall

I agree with @Hymzir that this should proc on shields, and along with the above suggested change to Piercing Spear would help give Templars a small edge as a shield buster class.

Balanced Warrior

This should be updated to include Physical Damage in the 1000/2000 resist bonus, especially in a melee-focused/area of denial setup for "stand tall" game play considering that melee weapons do, ya know, physical damage. To be fully "balanced", Spell Damage would need to be included in the 3%/6% bonus as well.

Dawn's Wrath

The following proposed changes emphasize debuffing opponents and throwing hard hitting attacks at those standing outside of the "Templar's house".
Ultimate: Nova

Great ability, great morphs, just drop the cost to the 200-220 range.

Active Skills

Sun Fire
So meh. Sooooooo soooooo meh. Now, I know there are builds that use the Reflective Light morph as part of a fire-damage DPS build, and it can be useful while leveling, so good. But Vampire's Bane? Making the DoT last longer or burn hotter as a single target skill is a waste, and this is mentioned whenever a comprehensive review by a player pops up because we've all tried it and figured, "I could just burn the same target down faster with [X, Y, or Z] ability before the final tick of VB even hits. And sure, a snare, but that's what the Aedric Spear skill line should be for (see above).

How about having it do one-shot burst damage that lower resistance to elemental damage for those seven seconds? Give it a 15% chance to proc for an extra 25-30% damage, like a magicka version of a Fighter's Guild skill. Vampire's Bane indeed. And the Enduring Rays passive would simply extend the lower resistance to elemental damage. I used to say for months to just swap "Major Sorcery" for "Major Prophecy" as the fix for VB, but with time to think about it more, I came up with and now favor the burst (into flame) damage fix instead.

Solar Flare/b]
So close, yet so far away. So close, yet so far away. We dream of (hitting our targets) tomorrow, but we're stuck in today... Sorry, Hall and Oates moment, there. But I would trade the extra damage given in 2.3.x to Dark Flare to disorient a target upon impact. At least if you managed to hit with the first one you would have a better chance of landing a second. But that still requires a target not to dodge roll away from the first projectile as it slowly arcs across the sky with a tell sound that says "double tap a direction key". My suggestions for extra CC in the Aedric Spear line can create some new openings for Dark Flare, but it's unclear whether those will be enough.

That's why I still like the idea of having it chase you like a heating seeking missile. That makes up for the clumsy cast, high arc, long flight, clear warning sound effect, etc. A target could still block the projectile to reduce damage taken, reflect it for no damage, or absorb it for little or no damage. A target could even outrun its range and escape. But the target couldn't dodge roll out of it. Keep the defile and empower, dump the new damage boost for 2.3.x, and give Templars a target-lock missile that can debuff an enemy group if the target doesn't get some distance from allies. A DK or any player with a sword and board can reflect/absorb it, a NB or Sorc can take the first hit and either CC the caster or cloak/streak away, and a fellow Templar can pop Eclipse on you. Risk and reward, but better than the current model since the first hit, even if bounced back at you, will actually land where you intended.

With regard to Solar Bore-age, I know a very few people who use it but I haven't since I first leveled up my magicka Templar a long time ago. It sounds great, a PBAoE that empowers your next attack. What a great skill to spam! But maybe there was a concern that would make it OP, so it's another "clunky instant cast" skill. Why not give it Major Defile as well like Dark Flare? One is a ranged projectile that defiles nearby allies of the target, one is a PBAoE that could do the same thing at greater risk up close. If not defile, then some other buff, debuff, or status effect to make it a competitor with Impulse from the Destruction Staff skill line.

Backlash

I haven't used Power of the Light since it became a stamina morph, at which point I switched to Purifying Light. I've used Backlash in one form or another when doing four person dungeons since I started playing a Templar, and it was always a nice DPS/HPS boost. I've heard some people say those boosts have been decreased with 2.3.x but I haven't tested that yet myself.

Eclipse

Give Eclipse and Total Dark a penalty (like 3x normal damage that would otherwise occur at the end of the ability) for breaking free. Still only one target allowed at a time and reflecting projectiles as per 2.3.1 mechanics. This forces a human opponent to decide between using non-projectile abilities and taking the extra damage. Bosses who are immune automatically "break free" and take damage, and the player has to wait the same period as a CC immunity timer to recast on a boss.

Unstable Core gets the bubble back, works like the 2.3x mechanics, but stuns the primary target upon exploding. The bubble keeps a human opponent from knowing which morph was used. The stun makes up for the lackluster damage and wait time. I really tried using it on the PTS but I had to kind of wait and slow down my fights for it to register before trash mobs were killed. Otherwise they died before it went off. Very lackluster. The stun also has some use in PvP, as that CC, rather than extra damage, is the break free penalty for players. Core also need to be added to the no fly list for Enduring Rays.

Radiant Destruction

Radiant Oppression great. Just add "healing effect increased up to 50% of damage done based on your current magicka" to Radiant Glory. If you want to add a stamina morph for this class execute, Oppression would make sense as long as magicka builds get the scaled healing just mentioned for Glory.

Passive Skills

Enduring Rays

Unstable Core, in it's 2.3.x incarnation, needs to be one of the skills excluded from this passive.

Restoring Spirit

I guess there is zero chance of every returning to the version of getting resources back per cast, even at a smaller percentage. So, straight buff it is the the cost reduction numbers to make Templars competitive. I've seen various numbers tossed out, but anything would be a significant improvement.

Restoring Light

The proposed changes are intended to create more viable options for Templar healing besides Breath of Life, Repentance, and Cleansing Ritual.
Ultimate: Rite of Passage
I rarely see either morph of this ability used outside of PvE. Sometimes I and some healer Templars will use Remembrance in group PvE play for bosses that have high damage phases, while others use Practiced Incantation and its slightly longer channel time (an extra two seconds). Perhaps Practiced Incantation could be altered to be the PvP-preferred version. For example, by extending the caster's immunity to crowd control effect to the allies being healed for the duration of the ability.

Active Skills

Rushed Ceremony

I'm not too bothered by the Breath of Life nerf. This is one of three places in this skill line I will mention a suggestion by Hymzir, though, since they deserve recognition: Give BoL back three targets but have them all at the lesser value while making the base ability and both morphs prioritize the caster.

Healing Ritual

I've had so many different ideas for this over the past couple of years, just all over the place. So I'll start with some ideas other people have offered:

A version you cast before the fight begins from @Faulgor
Healing Ritual: Cast restorative blessing on nearby allies. Restore 5% maximum Health every second for 30 seconds. 3 second cast time.

Lingering Ritual: Cast restorative blessing on nearby allies. Restore 5% maximum Health every second for 45 seconds. 3 second cast time.

Ritual of Rebirth: Cast restorative blessing on nearby allies. Restore 5% maximum Health every second for 30 seconds. 3 second cast time. Allies with less than 20% Health are healed back to 50%. Effect is removed thereafter.

These changes would offer a heal that fills an as of yet unfilled role.
- Strong buff that is designed to be pre-cast out of combat
- Offers an indirect tool for magicka sustain, because the damage "pre-healed" before combat doesn't have to be healed actively later
- Great utility for builds not focusing on magicka/spell damage, such as tanks and stamina builds

A Xivkyn Lacerator version from @Leon119
Personally i would love if healing ritual worked like the xivkyn lacerators's in WGT heal.
Leave it as it is with cast time at base skill and when cast makes an AoE centered around caster that functions as a HoT
Make morphs something along the line of:
● grant regen
● larger radius
● longer duration
● no cast time
● ect

A "turn it into a lesser form of Rite of Passgae" version (and replace Rite of Passage with something else) by @Talyena
Bump it's time and heal back to where it was. Bump the range to 28m. Make it interruptible and make it stop channeling if you move (but don't take away the ability to move). So if you only get to cast it for one second, you get off half the heal. Have it cap at 4-6 targets and work out the costs and have it be group only.

A "make it into a mobile HoT with instant cast" from @halfthepeopletalkingabouthealingritual
Make it a powerful hot that is instant-cast.

Here are my favorites from my own theorycrafting for your consideration:

"The Light"
In this new version of Healing Ritual, while you walk about praying and healing you are surrounded in a bright swirling glow as your healing energy pours out to nearby allies. You blind your foes, getting Major Evasion for two seconds (or Major Protection for two seconds or inflicting all nearby enemies with Major Maim for four seconds) starting when you press the button to cast the spell. The heal also begins instantly while you are doing a casting animation and still self-snared. The healing is reduced by 20% or so to compensate for the buff. For Lingering Ritual a smallish HoT applies to allies within the ability radius for 8 seconds after the cast time ends (centered on the caster who is no longer self-snared). Ritual of Rebirth restores one quarter of missing stamina and magicka to two nearby allies other than the caster over the course of three seconds. You still get 30% more healing from this spell.

"The Buff"
In another alternative I've also been considering, you still get the swirling light and self-snare cast time as per "The Light", but in this case the caster's allies gains Major Protection for 6 seconds or until the caster causes damage. Like "The Light", healing starts when casting begins, as does the buff. Basically the animation is for show not a delay in the heal. As with "The Light" the healing done and/or cost would be adjusted appropriately for balance. The morphs could stay the same as they have been since launch or could be tweaked. For example, Lingering Ritual could extend the buffs to 8 seconds, while Ritual of Rebirth could add Major Heroism or something similar alongside Major Protection. You still get 30% more healing from this spell.

"The Mover"
Basically, this is just like "The Buff" but it has no self-snare. So the heal still starts when you hit the button but you are as free to move as always. The base healing take a bigger hit to compensate, but, you are still giving those buffs to your allies while getting healed yourself. They can be the same buffs from "The Buff" or something else. You still get 30% more healing from this spell.

"The Toggle"
Most of my ideas for Healing Ritual have been based on keeping the cast time and the self-snare. This one doesn't. Rather than a specific number of health points that scale with spell damage, max magicka, and healing buffs, have it restore a percentage of their missing health, magicka, and stamina over time as a toggle. Toggling the ability on would drain health from the caster while restoring allies. The exact percentage of resources restored and the ratio of health drained to health restored would need to be based on internal testing to make sure it wasn't too strong or too weak. But given the risk and self-sacrifice, it would be a really big heal. There is still a risk, but not from the self-snare. Afterward the caster would have a reduction in healing received for a brief time to keep this ability from being abused.

Ritual of Rebirth would reduced the reduction in healing and buff health recovery. The Lingering Ritual Morph would give a delayed heal like it always has, but would be for a percentage of the healing done during the toggle.

At first glance, having a healer risk themselves by trading health for healing may sound like a death sentence for the healer, but again it would be balanced against doing a significant amount of healing to a fixed percentage of missing health. It would have a fast drain and tick for larger percentages of missing health over time. You could still run, sprint, and roll-dodge while saving a 12 player raid on the verge of wiping. And in any case, if you die you can always be rezzed. Hence the need to balance risk and reward to not make it a stealth easy mode mechanic where you just heal everyone to 100% while dying and get a rez after. Since the percentage of health restored goes up over time and since you can't cast anything else (other skills are locked out while channeling), just relying on this all of the time would be waste. It would be a great "Oh crap
button", though.

The cousin to this concept is to drain magicka super-fast instead of caster health, but it's more boring and is like a dull group version of Dark Deal. But it might be workable with some tweaking.

"The Replacement"
If all else fails, just dump this ability and figure out something else to put in its place. Use your imagination and go nuts.

Restoring Aura

Repentance continues to be a good skill for many builds, while Radiant Aura continues to be a disappointment. Change it to passively give allies the same buffs the Templar receives for slotting it: "Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing Health, Stamina, and Magicka Regeneration by 10%." For a bigger change, have activation give different buffs like Minor Evasion (5% dodge chance), Minor Protection (8% damage mitigation), and Minor Force (15% bonus to critical damage). With a 5% chance to dodge an enemy attack + 8% direct mitigation, allies are taking noticeably less damage, all the while having their stats regen faster (and not in conflict with tripots) and doing more damage. Subtle sounding? Yes. Helpful? Definitely.

Cleansing Ritual

If I were to suggest any changes, just follow Hymzir's rec to give one cleanse upon cast and get further cleanses, as per morph tooltip, with the synergy. For extra firepower, @Radburn suggests altering Extended Ritual to have enemies in its AoE take burning damage over time while they remain rather than lasting a few second longer. I like the idea, and technically a good name would be Purifying Ritual, but well, you can see the problems as that is already the name of the other morph. So, good options would include Sanctifying Ritual, Chastening Ritual, and Cauterizing Ritual. I am partial to that last one.

Rune Focus

I like this ability. I really do. I've been practicing fighting inside of it against things like the crossed-sword generals in the IC sewers. And it is *really* hard to stay inside of it: knockdowns that knock you back, AoE, AoE, AoE, targets zipping around, AoE, frontal conal attacks, AoE... the buffs the rune gives are awesome *if* you can stay inside of it. And even if you do, immoveable pots, Shuffle, and blocking only go so far for a magicka build. Meanwhile stamina builds need mobility to be viable.

So how about expanding the rune's radius a meter and either adding in an extra two seconds of CC immunity or being immune to soft CC if you manage to stay in the little circle? Also extend the length of ability (16s for base, for 24s morphs). As per the suggestion by Hymzir, allow all buffs to extend for 8s while outside the rune and to be renewed if you get back in before the 8s expire. Hence the new durations in multiples of eight.

Passive Skills

Mending

Like many Templar healers, I would love to see this passive work on all healing abilities, not just Restoring Light abilities, like it used to do. But the whole "Templars are too good at healing what about Sorcs/NBs/DKs?" mantra goes directly against this.

Light Weaver

Suggestion if kept in it's current form:

Have this passive grant 20 ultimate, not 2, when allies under 60% health are affected by Healing Ritual. Even if players spam it, there is little chance of exploiting. Cheap ultimates are cheap, so it doesn't matter if you charge them a bit faster. And getting to the costlier ultimates faster makes Healing Ritual more appealing.

How it would look if re-imagined:

Increase the value of critical heals by 10/20%.

I do like the 12500 Armor and Spell Resistance while channeling Right of Passage that comes with the current version of Light Weaver, so if we go with a re-imagined version, just stick this protection buff under Focused Healing or Master Ritualist.

Great ideas. About sweeps though. I think its strong enough with just the damage and the snare IF they make you able to tun while casting it.
Alot of your suggestions cover pvp but would be nice to have some utility options for pve as well.
Like making luminous shards give back magicka as well as stamina like blazing morph does.

I was considering PvE as well with the suggestions. Tanks, healers, and DDs ought to benefit. In terms of utility, for example, I was hoping to make Radiant Aura more useful by increasing damage and mitigation to allies as well as buffing their damage while giving constant resouce regen bonuses when close to the Templar. Of course any additional ideas for utility beyond those listed are welcome.

Technically it's Blazing Spear that gives only stam and Luminous Shards gives stam and magicka, but I got what you meant. The reason they didn't give both to Blazing is because it also has that DoT, which Luminous lacks. No idea how most Templars would feel about trading the DoT for magicka restore, but I wouldn't really mind either way.

Sweeps is good but Aedric Spear lacks synergy, so either Strikes (and by extension Sweeps) or Javelin would be the candidate for taking advantage of a status effect like off balance. Strikes makes sense because it is melee while Javelin is ranged, but, either way it would be a good inter-skill synergy. Again, the bleed (or burn, or knockdown) can replace the snare, which replaced the 1/2 second knockback. I figured a snare would work more effectively for the magicka spear to slow opponents coming at you or trying to flee

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Northern_Eve wrote: »

Grunim wrote: »

I can totally understand your feelings of betrayal and disappointment. I've been screwed over in the gaming world in the past so I'm a cynical old gamer who learned to not put all my eggs in one basket. So I have made it a point to play multiple characters and not have a true single main character. I just play on whichever characters seems to be the most fun at the time and screw caring about things like how high your PvP rank is or how many achievement points you earned.

In retrospect that's what I should have done, too. I started playing ESO because I am a fan of the Elder Scrolls universe and games, so I had no previous experience with MMOs. And I know there are countless people like me in this game, and I guess they could have made the same mistakes I did.

But I also actually listened and for a long time believing the information and plans about veteran ranks being removed. Which still hasn't happened until this day. So I was stupid enough to wait for that to happen before really leveling any alts past the early vet levels. Another big mistake based on false advertising and information. (Because of limited playtime, for me the journey to VR16 while collecting all skill points, books, Silver and Gold quests etc feels just way too long to be fun.)

So I was just happy to play a fairly good PvE healer with my fairly good guild groups (and various, often very bad PUGs), and I didn't anticipate my class to be nerfed like this. It's one thing to make other classes more viable in healing. That's NOT what is happening now. Templars are made worse while others are made better, so it's a total loss for someone who has made her Templar as healer right from the beginning.

I have known all along that Templar DPS was not comparable to other classes, but now we have lost our edge in healing as well while gaining nothing in return. (Tanking I know nothing about, so I will not comment on that at all.) So developers at Zos: Yes, please tell us how this class is supposed to be played in the future - and I mean played as a fun and rewarding thing, not just frustrating?

(My apologies for all typos and such, English is not my native language, and when upset, I forget how to write it properly!)

This is exactly the issue I've been dealing with on other specs. Templar healer was always good, which is one reason I went with the off spec of Tank and I made it work well (pve and pvp). The problem is that they've really done a number on the class with regard to Templar Tanking, and they really just don't seem to care. The Templar Healer really was the obvious best specification, so in some ways maybe its good they've screwed that up, because maybe they'll do something in the future that makes the class better all around. That is my hope anyway.

maxjapank · February 2016

BalticBlues wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

All these in-depth changes, while nice on paper,
are just literally impossible to get done within a month. [...]it's just a waste of time

Do you know how many months ago ZOS asked for suggestions?
Do you know how many threads and suggestions ZOS received?

Quit whining and focus on what little changes you could possibly get done for now.

timidobserver · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

@tinythinker The problem is that there is not a single reason an enemy or player shouldn't enter a Templar's house. Making such an implausible statement makes Wrobel seem incompetent thus the anger and frustration you are seeing. If there were a few things in the update to back up the whole house story he gave us, I think there would be a lot less anger and frustration. Instead of making changes to backup such a ludicrous statement we got a 1% increase to our shield and +1 added to the radius of our ultimate. He seemed to be describing the vision for the dragonknight not the Templar.

I have repeatedly said in this thread that the vision doesn't match the skills. Hence the comprehensive review of Templar skills with suggestions for making what Wrobel said actually work in my last comment.

No, your post was great. I am saying that what you are doing is a valiant effort, but based on the words spoken by Wrobel it is a waste of time.

blackcom90 · February 2016

The main question is: how the heck a templar can survive without moving?

The aoe in pvp can shot a tank too so a templar should have a bunker instead of an house. Will we have to heal and do dps in heavy armor or we will have enough mitigation to be immortal during the casting of healing ritual? I understand that he want to turn the templar in a pally from wow..... but i don't think this game allow him to do so.
Maybe in the next 3 months he will totally change eso...

Solariken · February 2016

blackcom90 wrote: »

The main question is: how the heck a templar can survive without moving?

The aoe in pvp can shot a tank too so a templar should have a bunker instead of an house. Will we have to heal and do dps in heavy armor or we will have enough mitigation to be immortal during the casting of healing ritual? I understand that he want to turn the templar in a pally from wow..... but i don't think this game allow him to do so.
Maybe in the next 3 months he will totally change eso...

I think that's why many of us felt so insulted by the house metaphor. All of the other classes have stronger houses than Templars, and based on what I see on the PTS that isn't going to change.

Regardless, that tactic is not a good one in the current state of the game where mobility is king. Furthermore, for the most part, more mobility = more fun.

I love my Templar because he is a sun-wielding Spartan who blazes around the battlefield smiting his foes with a searing spear, not because he is rune-hugging turtle healer.

blackcom90 · February 2016

Solariken wrote: »

blackcom90 wrote: »

The main question is: how the heck a templar can survive without moving?

The aoe in pvp can shot a tank too so a templar should have a bunker instead of an house. Will we have to heal and do dps in heavy armor or we will have enough mitigation to be immortal during the casting of healing ritual? I understand that he want to turn the templar in a pally from wow..... but i don't think this game allow him to do so.
Maybe in the next 3 months he will totally change eso...

I think that's why many of us felt so insulted by the house metaphor. All of the other classes have stronger houses than Templars, and based on what I see on the PTS that isn't going to change.

Regardless, that tactic is not a good one in the current state of the game where mobility is king. Furthermore, for the most part, more mobility = more fun.

I love my Templar because he is a sun-wielding Spartan who blazes around the battlefield smiting his foes with a searing spear, not because he is rune-hugging turtle healer.

the truth it's that @Wrobel will never admit his mistake and will do what he can to force the templar in it's house.
I love to do pve as a tank templar and be really sturdy as much as i love burning down enemies in pvp.
In both case i never stayed in my house... so the question it's simple... why should we forced to play in it? why after two year this fool want to totally change the class that we love?

Because he want to force his vision of a class that he never used on us and, at the same time, to show off on his superiors that don't know he is copying blizzard.

Sharkano · February 2016

Problem is the "house" he has built is in the worst ghetto in town . . . .

Soris · February 2016

blackcom90 wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

blackcom90 wrote: »

The main question is: how the heck a templar can survive without moving?

The aoe in pvp can shot a tank too so a templar should have a bunker instead of an house. Will we have to heal and do dps in heavy armor or we will have enough mitigation to be immortal during the casting of healing ritual? I understand that he want to turn the templar in a pally from wow..... but i don't think this game allow him to do so.
Maybe in the next 3 months he will totally change eso...

I think that's why many of us felt so insulted by the house metaphor. All of the other classes have stronger houses than Templars, and based on what I see on the PTS that isn't going to change.

Regardless, that tactic is not a good one in the current state of the game where mobility is king. Furthermore, for the most part, more mobility = more fun.

I love my Templar because he is a sun-wielding Spartan who blazes around the battlefield smiting his foes with a searing spear, not because he is rune-hugging turtle healer.

the truth it's that @Wrobel will never admit his mistake and will do what he can to force the templar in it's house.
I love to do pve as a tank templar and be really sturdy as much as i love burning down enemies in pvp.
In both case i never stayed in my house... so the question it's simple... why should we forced to play in it? why after two year this fool want to totally change the class that we love?

Because he want to force his vision of a class that he never used on us and, at the same time, to show off on his superiors that don't know he is copying blizzard.

Templar was always hold the ground type of class, it's not a new thing. Eric just confirmed that we will continue to be exactly that type, which i'm fine with it. But this doesn't mean we are forced to stay inside a 3 meter radius circle. I want to believe he didn't mean that.
But on the flip side, if templars are required to stay inside that little circle for whole time, then there should be a really good reason to do that, not just a standart armor buff. Something like a godmode cheat ability or so. If they come up with something like that in update 10, i'm fine with that.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Ashamray wrote: »

Small wet offtopic:
Yesterday night I (magplar) was lurking in Azura's Imperial City as usual, and one glass NB attacked me. His damage was high, but no defence, so I bursted him down with a Dawnb. And his whisper burned my butt really
"Why didn't you die? Templars always die coz I have good damage", he said.
This NB wasn't a good one, but the fact that such a mediocre player usually had no problems with Templars is very sad.

I will say this. It pisses me off when someone who has 4x or 6x my damage output, is mad that I"ve made a character that is really tanky, and thinks it is unfair. What is unfair that my mitigation is only 20% better than theirs, but they hit so much harder right now than I do. That's what is unfair. Its the main reason I gave up on tanking, it just isn't worth it if you pvp.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Rudyard wrote: »

Oh yeah, that sorc pet that is replacing your heals? It gets covered by sorcs' hardened ward. That's right, the pet with better heals than you gets a shield you can only dream of. That shield also has a 20 second duration, so if not being directly attacked you don't have to recast it as often as say, other, less effective shields. Can you feel the love, Templars? I guess we all need to reroll Sorc.

Sorcerer does look really attractive lately doesn't it?

BalticBlues · February 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

Quit whining and focus on what little changes you could possibly get done for now.

I already told you about the "little change" the devs could do:

Take heart, admit a mistake and press the restore button.
Take back all the changes that do not improve but finally ruin that class.
No programming needed, no testing needed, no more putting customers off.
The Live version is all we need to at least survive as a class. Thank you.

Joy_Division · February 2016

@tinythinker makes some good points.

I logged off in frustration tonight because I got insta-killed in my "house" tonight twice.

It's hard for me to get made at Eric and the ZoS combat team because they are trying. The problem is that templars are not an easy class to play and require a fair amount of experience and it is apparent that experience is lacking.

How much of this aggravation could have been avoided IF ZoS would make balance tweaks every incremental and thus make it much easier for us to help guide them in the direction they need to go? They spring stuff on us every half year and then we are stuck playing broken and imbalanced mechanics until "No ETA."

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

@tinythinker The problem is that there is not a single reason an enemy or player shouldn't enter a Templar's house. Making such an implausible statement makes Wrobel seem incompetent thus the anger and frustration you are seeing. If there were a few things in the update to back up the whole house story he gave us, I think there would be a lot less anger and frustration. Instead of making changes to backup such a ludicrous statement we got a 1% increase to our shield and +1 added to the radius of our ultimate. He seemed to be describing the vision for the dragonknight not the Templar.

I'm fairly certain Templars were always intended to be tanky warriors or healers the way they were envisioned and designed. The intro to the game artwork makes that clear as well as the class description. The actual class passives also seem to back this up. The problem comes in the way rules changes have altered the way things work. For example our bonuses to blocking/breaking blocks just aren't as good any more in a world where blocking is one of the worst mitigation methods out there. DK's deal with this problem as well. The problem is the gameplay doesn't deliver the way it should, and we Templars are relics of a much older system. We were never updated properly.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

acw37162 wrote: »

@tinythinker awesome post

Really like the idea of a bleed effect from jabs or fro one of the passive a in the skill line, makes a lot of sense. Jab someone with a spear and the might bleed.

A cauterize effect passive where burning light procs fire damage would be interesting also.

Here's a though about backlash and dark flare,

Dark Flare added effect; if a target is marked with backlash Dark Flare takes a more direct (read liner) path to target just a thought for synergy not really well fleashed out

That's a cool idea.

kaalmoth · February 2016

Little idea: make that inside my "house" casting time is reduced.

And its about time sweeps start htting shields like regular stuff, so if someone DARE enter my house with one, I dont feel like hitting him with a wet noodle. Whats up with that anyway? And no crit, no heal/per hit, etc, did it start as bugs, that never got fixed, or was it intended the whole time.

Islyn · February 2016

timidobserver wrote: »

@tinythinker The problem is that there is not a single reason an enemy or player shouldn't enter a Templar's house. Making such an implausible statement makes Wrobel seem incompetent thus the anger and frustration you are seeing. If there were a few things in the update to back up the whole house story he gave us, I think there would be a lot less anger and frustration. Instead of making changes to backup such a ludicrous statement we got a 1% increase to our shield and +1 added to the radius of our ultimate. He seemed to be describing the vision for the dragonknight not the Templar.

So much this...

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO · February 2016

Ok, what tools do Templars need to turn them into a successful house build.

1) Rune focus must have a minimum of 8m radius but no more than 12m.
2) Templars must receive AOE mitigation to counter 1 shot boss mechanics while standing within the radius of their puddles. The reason for this should be apparent.
3) Templars must receive root and snare immunity while standing within the radius of their puddles. Jabs vulnerability to roots is a perfect example of why this needs to occur. Roots completely counter jabs. Given the player is now restricted to his rune, it makes no sense to be able to root or snare them on it.

Tree synergies and ability changes to make the class feel more fluid and conform to the new style.

Aedric Spear

Radial sweep - Radius increased to 8m
Crescent Sweep - Damage increased.

Jabs - should also interrupt the target. This is mostly for PvE as previously, the knockback interrupted NPC's attempting to stun, bash or wrecking blow you.

Burning Light- additionally adds a 33% chance to trigger burning light to any target standing within the radius of your rune.

Dawns Wrath

Sun fire - Would really love to see this proc major sorcery even it if means removing major prophecy from it.

Backlash - Purging it causes any stored damage to take effect. Damage increases the longer it is on the target.

Eclipse - needs a rework. It's issue is that it is completely shutdown by CC break or purge. Fixing those would just turn it into a better clone of DK's reflect. IMO The ability should be a self buff reducing ranged and spell damage dealt to you by anyone outside your runes radius.
Dark eclipse - should heal you for a portion of the damage blocked.
Unstable core - should stun and damage targets standing within the radius of your rune. Stun should go through block.

Restoring Light

Focused healing - 3 / 6 seconds (2 / 4 is a bit too short). Grants major mending while in your own Cleansing Ritual, Rune Focus, or Rite of Passage area effects

Rune Focus - Duration 6 seconds. Radius minimum 8m. Increases armor and spell resistance by 5200. Duration is refreshed continuously while standing on the rune. Major and Minor ward sticks to you for 8 seconds upon leaving the radius. Also grants Minor protection and minor vitality while standing on the rune.

Restoring focus - Costs stamina, restores stamina while standing on the rune.

Channeled focus - restores magicka while standing on the rune.

Extended ritual - purges 1 effect and 1 additional effect from the caster every 3 seconds. Lasts 12 seconds. ( same as purify)

Healing ritual - Fixing this ability would turn it into a more powerful version of breath of life. IMO it should be completely reworked into something interesting.

Zinaroth · February 2016

tinythinker wrote: »

Razorback174 wrote: »

I finally did it and unsubbed. And I've stuck around here since beta.

If only ZoS could listen to us "common folk" and not the elitist streamers and then cater to their every whim when it comes to changes.

I'm no game developer, not by a longshot, but I think I might just understand balancing. You do it incrementally, and small. Noticeable, but still making a difference. Instead we get hit with the most heavy-handed nerfs you could ever imagine.

Case in point: the stamina regen and blocking nerf. Anyone else remember that one with IC? I sure did when PUG tanks became nearly extinct.

I want to make it clear that I love my v16 templar healer dearly. It's the one class I've felt useful with, being able to keep everyone alive even though my damage was terrible. This update is only going to kill that role for me. What's left after that? Mediocre DPS? A tank with no survival skills at all?

I just can't understand the mentality of these massive, sweeping changes that throw the idea of "balance" to the wind.

Well, according to the interview today, the changes are to open things up and make things more fun/interesting. And conversations with guild leaders was mentioned in terms of which players were talked to. I'm sure popular streamers have input too but they weren't mentioned.

I don't know who they talked to regarding class balance in PvE but I can assure you that noone in Hodor was ever approached. Considering we're currently the best raiding guild in the world that seems like a loss for ZOS not to utilize that knowledge. Then again they have never had a good track record at being in contact with their EU player base. They only ever seem to take direct feedback from NA guilds. The only team we're in direct contact with is the dungeon and trials team, and that is only because they are awesome and come into our TS on a day off and sit there for 7 hours taking feedback. Otherwise there is no contact with ZOS eventhough we've offered to give feedback several times. Not going to lie, I am rather salty about the disparity between the attention the NA community is getting over the EU one.

That being said I do not plan to retire my Templar at all. Ssdly he sill continue to play as magicka most likely. However I have been investing more and more time on my NB and I expect that trend to continue.