PvPers how does this make you feel?

VaranisArano · January 2022

IronWooshu wrote: »

I would love to see them delay the new expansion while they fix Cyrodiil so we can catch all the hypocritical PVE players crying on the forums that say PVP players are toxic.

I guarantee if Zenimax breaks something in PVE like purposefully giving PVE players the type of lag in Cyro where they can't barswap and skill activation sometimes takes many seconds while in their favorite raid/dungeons they would complain too.

Truth be told, I'm not very impressed that Molag Kena is still bugging out.

That being said, we have seen ZOS seriously inconvenience PVE players back when Groupfinder was having its rework done. And yeah, there were a ton of complaints. First from PVPers because they canceled Midyear Mayhem, and then from PVEers as the queue problems got worse.

Then the Undaunted Event happened, and the Groupfinder rework failed so bad that ZOS halted and postponed the event. Angry posts. Bitter posts. Much mocking of ZOS.

Then it got postponed again. And again. It was only a couple of months, so not the years that Cyrodiil has been in sad shape. Still - much questioning of ZOS' competence. Wondering if anything was getting done. Much doubt that it would actually work when the Undaunted Event finally happened.

Then it worked, and the negativity went away!

There's other examples. The login queues for PC/EU. The guild trader multi-bid fiascos. Lots of anger while the problems lasted, eased by the promise of ZOS taking action. Once fixed, the anger passed.

But let's just say that I have no doubt that PVE players are capable of pouring just as much salt and toxicity out when their content doesn't work properly as PVPers.

Everyone gets frustrated. It's just that PVPers have been frustrated for so many years, we've pretty much got our own great salt lake with no fixes in sight.

spartaxoxo · January 2022

NagualV wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »

This honestly has me really fired up, I hope everyone shares this video in their pvp guilds discord channels so all the pvp base can see what they think about their own players... and maybe rethink all those ESO plus memberships...

It's not the opinion of anyone who works for ZOS, just a wife being a bit too protective of a dev.

They are working on it really hard actually, and the pandemic really screwed them over. They are performing an entire rearchitecture just because of PVP, and they are also upgrading to better servers which got delayed due to Covid.

Rich gets a ton of questions about pvp when he streams. I actually watched his stream a few times and it was a ton of them and most of what he'd have to answer. She clearly got fed up with it and did something she shouldn't have but I don't think it represents what he thinks or zos. Just what is stressing him out at work and someone doing too much about it.

I appreciate how you are trying to present the "other" side of this........

I could appreciate it if they are continuing to work on it, but I would ask anyone who continues to say this - how long does a person wait? I reached my "quit moment" in September, when a new mmo with a pvp focus came out(please refrain from commenting on that mmo, its irrelevant to this discussion). How many prominent pvp players left ESO in September?All other things aside, how long does a person wait? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? If they have been genuinely working on it for years, and they dont want to add new content because they are working on it, how long do I have to wait, without new content, before I decide to leave???? How would the pve crowd behave if they had no new content for years, and on top of that their content didnt work properly? Saintly, with Mother Theresa levels of compassion and empathy, I'm sure......

Also, this is Rich's stream. As many have said it's his personal stream. I dont really watch twitch streams, and I'm not the only one. If I dont watch his stream, does that mean I miss out on critical information? What I'm really getting at is that a roadmap for the future of pvp should be posted ON OFFICIAL FORUMS. The lack of this contributes to the feeling that it's just "being worked on" . Incidentally, that other terrible, evil, horrible, new mmo recently had the devs create an hour and a half long video about their roadmap for the next few months. I thought to myself "wha? A pvp roadmap, that exists?"

Again I appreciate how you are presenting the other side of this, but you cannot expect people to just sit there and wait, and wait. And wait.....

I actually completely understand PvPers frustration with how long it's taking, and also think some of this is self inflicted by the devs because of a lack of roadmap and updates.

Again, I think it's good that you are trying to look at this from a balanced point of view. I always try my best to look at both sides of an argument and keep an open mind, so I appreciate you trying to do the same thing. I want to reiterate that I am a firm believer that the majority of BOTH pvp'ers and pve'rs are good folks and are not toxic. It's not good to be divided.

I wanted to say one final thing, about your quoted comment. ZOS, Rich, Gina...they're all smart people. This game would not be so successful(I no longer play yet I still feel connected to the game because of all the fun I've had) if they werent. My point -

WHY is there no official pvp roadmap, or updates....something reasonably frequent....we can only speculate, but when I do, I just dont feel comfortable. None of the scenarios that I come up with as to why this doesnt exist give me hope, or comfort. Assuming all what you have said about this latest "clip" is true, that it was a faux paus, etc....you combine the comments with this lack of vision....its very difficult to come up with a scenario that isnt "pvp is on the back burner"

Anyway, I'll always keep an eye out on the game. Maybe well all be proven wrong in a couple of weeks....

I just think that their communication really sucks. I don't know if you saw earlier, but they are working on some very major behind the scenes fixes for the PVP community. They are doing a re-architecture of the game, and upgrading their servers. That's pretty massive projects. But it's also projects that you guys can't see, and can't know about unless they tell us something.

So they are actually working pretty hard on PVP, but it's all on things that will be invisible to the player. This is why they need to up their communication. The poor communication isn't doing themselves any favors. It's making things worse. You can't just tell players "We're working on it," for a years long project. You need to be like "We are working on X, think of it like Y." There was a covid related delay to the servers issue. That's something that people would have understood.

I think I'd be more mad if I hadn't luckily stumbled into some answers when asking about clothes on Rich's stream. Which is the only real place to get any information unfortunately. Which is what lead to this unfortunate incident.

Rohamad_Ali · January 2022

Malthorne wrote: »

If this is what they are willing to put on video, imagine what they say about us in private.

On the other claw, Just imagine what we all say about them in private. This one started a dumpster fire of discarded comedy material unacceptable for forums.

VaranisArano · January 2022

SammyKhajit wrote: »

Is this lady an employee of ZOS? Under what capacity is she speaking on behalf of the game?

Entertaining rant from her though. Missed the point re ZOS promise to improve customer service and communication. But still entertaining.

Rich Lambert is the Creative Director for ESO. This is his personal stream. She's his wife, and was taking questions from chat.

So...no, she's not an employee. No, she's not speaking for ZOS. She's not necessarily even speaking for Rich Lambert, who doesn't clarify his own opinion as far as I saw.

AuraNebula · January 2022

[snip]

Even if someone was baiting them in chat. They could have simply ignored the question and not answer it, or she could have just said "they are working on it"

Reprimanding Rich is not what should happen. What should happen is proper communication. Tell us what you are doing to fix cyrodiil, give us an estimated date on when they think it is achievable.

[edited to remove quoted content]

spartaxoxo · January 2022

etchedpixels wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

VaranisArano wrote: »

show previous quotes

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

This describes the most likely reaction, and that disappoints me.

Like, I'd really like for there to be a middle ground where the personal stream can stay personal and the official communication can be honest and step up to provide that official insight that players are turning to Rich to.

But part of that is also going to require the player community to behave themselves. I haven't forgotten that we lost a lot of communication from the Class Reps after they were savaged by the community for the Dev-driven Murkmire Nerfs, and even more so after a couple of Class Reps broke their NDAs.

While I do think a lot of the negativity about PVP is justifiable, it's also completely counterproductive to lash out at the Devs personally. That only encourages disengagement on their part, which is the opposite of the engaged, sympathetic behavior we want.

This is beautifully put, thank you for these posts. I would give you both a thousand awesomes if I could, but instead I'll give you a cupcake gif. I agree with this 100%

Spoiler

SammyKhajit · January 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

show previous quotes

SammyKhajit wrote: »

Is this lady an employee of ZOS? Under what capacity is she speaking on behalf of the game?

Entertaining rant from her though. Missed the point re ZOS promise to improve customer service and communication. But still entertaining.

Rich Lambert is the Creative Director for ESO. This is his personal stream. She's his wife, and was taking questions from chat.

So...no, she's not an employee. No, she's not speaking for ZOS. She's not necessarily even speaking for Rich Lambert, who doesn't clarify his own opinion as far as I saw.

Thanks for this clarification.

Guess the video clip is an example of the perils of work from home!

Seriously though, that is a regrettable incident - no doubt she felt frustrated and wanted to defend husband, but… well, that’s probably not the best way to show support.

SerafinaWaterstar · January 2022

Nanfoodle wrote: »

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SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

The Stockholm Syndrome is strong with some.

I'd guess it's white knighting. But then again, if I couldn't care less about PvP I had a good way to rub it in now. So probablly more trolling than anything else from these dudes.

No, in my case its not trolling, or white knighting or Stockholm Syndrome, but that I genuinely feel this is a massive over-reaction to an offhand comment made in frustration taken massively out of context & used to manufacture anger and condemnation.

That is what I consider appalling; this is manipulation as very few seem to actually check out the *context* but are quick to jump on the outrage bandwagon.

So who is the troll?

Its not an over reaction when the PvP fan base has been begging for help for many years with little or no response from Zen. The few promises they have made have not happened. Getting this type of response when in effect this problem is like putting on and ripping off a band aid on same problem again and again. The cut this has caused is now festering.

Think for a moment if the Trial community had lag so consistent that raids were cancelled on a regular basis? And when they got a raid rolling, pressing abilities took 5-10 seconds to fire off or lagged out so bad sometimes the abilities did not go off at all, causing wipe after wipe? How would they feel if mocked after years and years of this problem?

Been playing pvp for years in this game, through the good and bad times. Yes, it has been incredibly frustrating at times, and also occasionally unplayable, but still care not a jot about this comment and think people are over-reacting.

MISTFORMBZZZ · January 2022

AuraNebula wrote: »

https://youtu.be/oSDxjJ15YII

I guess we are all just a bunch of crybabies who only like to troll developers. Forget that we have invested years and thousands of hours into a game that we love. Some people may come across as demanding, but in reality they are frustrated and just want a game that works.

Edit: Performance has been bad for years and many PvPers have felt neglected because of it. For years we have heard "We are working on it" and now those words do not mean anything. We don't know what they are working on. We have no way of knowing when they estimate it will be fixed. We just get shamed for caring. If we don't like it we can play another game according to that lady.

This is shocking, unprofessional and disrespectful but tbh its the wake up call , the pvp community needs.
Either zos reacts now, they must give a statement about this and they must give a statement about what are the issues in pvp , how do they plan to solve the pvp issues, and when will they fix them and then they need to deliver! Or the result will be loads of people canceling their subs to eso+. You cant threat a whole community like that.

NagualV · January 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

show previous quotes

VaranisArano wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

This describes the most likely reaction, and that disappoints me.

Like, I'd really like for there to be a middle ground where the personal stream can stay personal and the official communication can be honest and step up to provide that official insight that players are turning to Rich to.

But part of that is also going to require the player community to behave themselves. I haven't forgotten that we lost a lot of communication from the Class Reps after they were savaged by the community for the Dev-driven Murkmire Nerfs, and even more so after a couple of Class Reps broke their NDAs.

While I do think a lot of the negativity about PVP is justifiable, it's also completely counterproductive to lash out at the Devs personally. That only encourages disengagement on their part, which is the opposite of the engaged, sympathetic behavior we want.

This is beautifully put, thank you for these posts. I would give you both a thousand awesomes if I could, but instead I'll give you a cupcake gif. I agree with this 100%
Spoiler

Ok one more thing, regarding the theme of these specific quoted comments.

A question - agreed that lashing out to devs doesnt really solve much.

What is the correct way the pvp community should reach out to devs to express their frustrations, comments about the game, performance etc?

How do you envision it, and has that already happened in the history of the game?

ZOS_Ragnar · January 2022

Hello everyone!

I can understand that many of you have strong feelings regarding this topic however us moderators have had removed a few comments from this thread. Comments that were removed were those that we believed crossed the line including those making personal attacks as well as comments that only served to bait other players and inflame the situation.

Please do your best to ensure your comments do not violate our Community Rules.

spartaxoxo · January 2022

NagualV wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

VaranisArano wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

This describes the most likely reaction, and that disappoints me.

Like, I'd really like for there to be a middle ground where the personal stream can stay personal and the official communication can be honest and step up to provide that official insight that players are turning to Rich to.

But part of that is also going to require the player community to behave themselves. I haven't forgotten that we lost a lot of communication from the Class Reps after they were savaged by the community for the Dev-driven Murkmire Nerfs, and even more so after a couple of Class Reps broke their NDAs.

While I do think a lot of the negativity about PVP is justifiable, it's also completely counterproductive to lash out at the Devs personally. That only encourages disengagement on their part, which is the opposite of the engaged, sympathetic behavior we want.

This is beautifully put, thank you for these posts. I would give you both a thousand awesomes if I could, but instead I'll give you a cupcake gif. I agree with this 100%
Spoiler

Ok one more thing, regarding the theme of these specific quoted comments.

A question - agreed that lashing out to devs doesnt really solve much.

What is the correct way the pvp community should reach out to devs to express their frustrations, comments about the game, performance etc?

How do you envision it, and has that already happened in the history of the game?

Well one thing is I think the full context of what was said should be in the OP including who she actually is, rather than OP priming things for outrage with a clip taken out of context and sat alongside their own totally understandable and legit feelings of anger. It just causes discussion to be more inflammatory. And this kind of thing is exactly what makes people makes put up their walls.

I also think people should refrain from comments like "we paid for her house" etc.

They should also maybe keep these kinds of questions moreso towards Rich than his wife.

Just in general try to be fair and respectful.

Outside of stuff like that though, I think PvPers are already communicating the way the should be communicating. The party who's communication sucks is not the players, for the most part. It is the devs.

They should try to do more Q&As, be more active on the forums and respond to threads more than once, be giving updates and roadmaps etc.

Like the blame is 90% on zos.

Destai · January 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

show previous quotes

SammyKhajit wrote: »

Is this lady an employee of ZOS? Under what capacity is she speaking on behalf of the game?

Entertaining rant from her though. Missed the point re ZOS promise to improve customer service and communication. But still entertaining.

Rich Lambert is the Creative Director for ESO. This is his personal stream. She's his wife, and was taking questions from chat.

So...no, she's not an employee. No, she's not speaking for ZOS. She's not necessarily even speaking for Rich Lambert, who doesn't clarify his own opinion as far as I saw.

Then she has no place saying, "they're working on it". Even if it was on their personal stream, they're still providing status on professional deliverables. Rich was obviously embarrassed by her comment and I hope corporate puts some more rules on what communication the stream can support.

atherusmora · January 2022

Malthorne wrote: »

show previous quotes

atherusmora wrote: »

This thread is still open? Hmm, interesting.

It would be a bad look to lock this right now.

Agreed, but it’s past noon ET, and no official word regarding this?

ZOS_Kevin · January 2022

Hi Everyone,

As this is related to the topic, we shared our official statement on the current state of PvP. You can find that linked here. If you have questions or feedback regarding the official statement, we have comments open for that feedback to be heard. Same rule applies as ZOS_RyanM laid out, please do your best to ensure your comments do not violate our Community Rules.

Thanks all.

Casul · January 2022

Well since my other comment got removed let me make a constructive version.

I am not happy with the general opinion of this clip, because although the person is not a developer, they likely share some similar emotions with Rich regarding issues. Seeing valid complaints a portion of the community has as whining is not constructive. Now I will admit that many of us are very angry by the years of negelect and that does lead to some negative communication. I would like to believe that the developers care about our concerns, I would like to believe that improvements are coming, I would like to believe my time and money are valued. But the fact is this has been proven untrue for many years to me personally.

Because of these points it makes it hard to feel like I can give ESO another chance. The general feeling that the developers are giving us just enough to stop the constant threads and complaints just feels like they see us as an annoyance, and not valued customers.

Many of us bring friends into the game with us, talking nothing but praise. Heck a friend of mine took a break from FF14 to try ESO pvp and fell in love, except for the constant issue of PvP performance. Now I am gone and he has as well uninstalled the game because whats the point.

At this point I warn people that ask about ESO because I don't want them to get sucked into the false promise of good PvP when 95% of the time they will not experience it.

Wolfkeks · January 2022

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi Everyone,

As this is related to the topic, we shared our official statement on the current state of PvP. You can find that linked here. If you have questions or feedback regarding the official statement, we have comments open for that feedback to be heard. Same rule applies as ZOS_RyanM laid out, please do your best to ensure your comments do not violate our Community Rules.

Thanks all.

Thank you Kevin!

ArchMikem · January 2022

@AuraNebula

You, REALLY, need to update your OP with the correct context of that video and who's in it, because most people coming into a several page thread are not going to bother reading the whole thing to find out that everyone speaking on page 1 are completely wrong, and just keeps the hate train going.

AuraNebula · January 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

NagualV wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

VaranisArano wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

This describes the most likely reaction, and that disappoints me.

Like, I'd really like for there to be a middle ground where the personal stream can stay personal and the official communication can be honest and step up to provide that official insight that players are turning to Rich to.

But part of that is also going to require the player community to behave themselves. I haven't forgotten that we lost a lot of communication from the Class Reps after they were savaged by the community for the Dev-driven Murkmire Nerfs, and even more so after a couple of Class Reps broke their NDAs.

While I do think a lot of the negativity about PVP is justifiable, it's also completely counterproductive to lash out at the Devs personally. That only encourages disengagement on their part, which is the opposite of the engaged, sympathetic behavior we want.

This is beautifully put, thank you for these posts. I would give you both a thousand awesomes if I could, but instead I'll give you a cupcake gif. I agree with this 100%
Spoiler

Ok one more thing, regarding the theme of these specific quoted comments.

A question - agreed that lashing out to devs doesnt really solve much.

What is the correct way the pvp community should reach out to devs to express their frustrations, comments about the game, performance etc?

How do you envision it, and has that already happened in the history of the game?

Well one thing is I think the full context of what was said should be in the OP including who she actually is, rather than OP priming things for outrage with a clip taken out of context and sat alongside their own totally understandable and legit feelings of anger. It just causes discussion to be more inflammatory. And this kind of thing is exactly what makes people makes put up their walls.

I also think people should refrain from comments like "we paid for her house" etc.

They should also maybe keep these kinds of questions moreso towards Rich than his wife.

Just in general try to be fair and respectful.

Outside of stuff like that though, I think PvPers are already communicating the way the should be communicating. The party who's communication sucks is not the players, for the most part. It is the devs.

They should try to do more Q&As, be more active on the forums and respond to threads more than once, be giving updates and roadmaps etc.

Like the blame is 90% on zos.

No I didn't mention her name or Rich's because I did not want people shaming them personally, and that's what people did anyways. The answer to the question was not taken out of context. The question was asked and how she chose to respond is why it upset me and other people.

I love this game. I think the devs put a lot of work into the game. However, I do not think it is okay to talk about your customer base they way she did.

Also I agree with everything else you said.

edward_frigidhands · January 2022

Olauron wrote: »

show previous quotes

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.

Your comment is misplaced here.

Players are questioning quality rather than design choices.

Go look up some games where the players left.

Doesn't matter.

It does though.

If it didn't then zos would not constantly address it and state they are working on here.

You're kind of just arguing for the sake of it while missing the pretty obvious.

spartaxoxo · January 2022

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi Everyone,

As this is related to the topic, we shared our official statement on the current state of PvP. You can find that linked here. If you have questions or feedback regarding the official statement, we have comments open for that feedback to be heard. Same rule applies as ZOS_RyanM laid out, please do your best to ensure your comments do not violate our Community Rules.

Thanks all.

Nice to finally see an official post about this!

Tra_Lalan · January 2022

TBH I don't see a big deal in this clip. I watched it when I read most of the posts here and expected something more offensive.

However I feel that some of players comments here were much more inappropriate than her comment about pvp.

I know that Rich is from ZOS and we get to "blame" him for whatever bugs our game expierience, but still we should also treat him and his wife with respect, as every other human beeing. He is streaming from his house, shares his privacy, please consider beeing more polite.

VaranisArano · January 2022

NagualV wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

VaranisArano wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

This describes the most likely reaction, and that disappoints me.

Like, I'd really like for there to be a middle ground where the personal stream can stay personal and the official communication can be honest and step up to provide that official insight that players are turning to Rich to.

But part of that is also going to require the player community to behave themselves. I haven't forgotten that we lost a lot of communication from the Class Reps after they were savaged by the community for the Dev-driven Murkmire Nerfs, and even more so after a couple of Class Reps broke their NDAs.

While I do think a lot of the negativity about PVP is justifiable, it's also completely counterproductive to lash out at the Devs personally. That only encourages disengagement on their part, which is the opposite of the engaged, sympathetic behavior we want.

This is beautifully put, thank you for these posts. I would give you both a thousand awesomes if I could, but instead I'll give you a cupcake gif. I agree with this 100%
Spoiler

Ok one more thing, regarding the theme of these specific quoted comments.

A question - agreed that lashing out to devs doesnt really solve much.

What is the correct way the pvp community should reach out to devs to express their frustrations, comments about the game, performance etc?

How do you envision it, and has that already happened in the history of the game?

Since I was one of the quoted comments, here's my take on how the community in general and PVPers (of which I am one) in particular would do well to express themselves:

Be polite. Be respectful. Be reasonable. Be clear about your feedback, but also understanding that you, as an individual, are but one player.

That's worked pretty well for me, participating on the forums since Morrowind. In that time, I've had a handful of interactions with the Devs and Mods in the forums that have been pleasant and respectful even when I'm making suggestions or pointing out that they've bugged Plentiful Harvest.

Does it work?

Yes, actually. Sustained, respectful, well-thought-out feedback by a number of players has made substantial changes to ESO.

A list of the PVP-specific changes that happened due to players asking for them:

- Return of faction locked servers (and return of unlocked servers)
- Alliance Change Tokens
- separate campaigns for Imperial City
- various tests made to test things players asked ZOS to test
- no proc sets in one campaign
- Battlegrounds (like, maybe people forget that small scalers were begging ZOS for a gamemode to get away from the zergs of Cyrodiil?)

Some of those I advocated for. Some of those, I didn't. Not that it matters - I'm one person.

What they all have in common is that:
A. Enough people gave sustained, respectful, clear feedback that these were desirable directions for ESO PVP that the Devs decided it was worth doing.

B. They were doable with time and effort.

In terms of performance, we've got A down pat. The Devs know. We've told them.

What we don't have any evidence of is B. Time, yes. Effort, yes. Both have been spent to no avail.

So it's not like sustained negative feedback is going to help or somehow make the fixes doable by magic.

So why not be polite, respectful, and clear about our sustained feedback? We do far less harm that way.

NagualV · January 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

NagualV wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

VaranisArano wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

This describes the most likely reaction, and that disappoints me.

Like, I'd really like for there to be a middle ground where the personal stream can stay personal and the official communication can be honest and step up to provide that official insight that players are turning to Rich to.

But part of that is also going to require the player community to behave themselves. I haven't forgotten that we lost a lot of communication from the Class Reps after they were savaged by the community for the Dev-driven Murkmire Nerfs, and even more so after a couple of Class Reps broke their NDAs.

While I do think a lot of the negativity about PVP is justifiable, it's also completely counterproductive to lash out at the Devs personally. That only encourages disengagement on their part, which is the opposite of the engaged, sympathetic behavior we want.

This is beautifully put, thank you for these posts. I would give you both a thousand awesomes if I could, but instead I'll give you a cupcake gif. I agree with this 100%
Spoiler

Ok one more thing, regarding the theme of these specific quoted comments.

A question - agreed that lashing out to devs doesnt really solve much.

What is the correct way the pvp community should reach out to devs to express their frustrations, comments about the game, performance etc?

How do you envision it, and has that already happened in the history of the game?

Well one thing is I think the full context of what was said should be in the OP including who she actually is, rather than OP priming things for outrage with a clip taken out of context and sat alongside their own totally understandable and legit feelings of anger. It just causes discussion to be more inflammatory. And this kind of thing is exactly what makes people makes put up their walls.

I also think people should refrain from comments like "we paid for her house" etc.

They should also maybe keep these kinds of questions moreso towards Rich than his wife.

Just in general try to be fair and respectful.

Outside of stuff like that though, I think PvPers are already communicating the way the should be communicating. The party who's communication sucks is not the players, for the most part. It is the devs.

They should try to do more Q&As, be more active on the forums and respond to threads more than once, be giving updates and roadmaps etc.

Like the blame is 90% on zos.

Thank you, I think this is fair. Also. That 10% fault of the playerbase tends to be the ones that are not rational, aka the "toxic" ones...not representative of the majority of players.

You are right that this whole "clip" thing could have been presented much better

I ultimately think though that through the years, there HAVE been numerous attempts to present the "pvp perspective" in a wholesome, constructive way. Even though I would concede that all by itself, the whole "clip" thing is relatively "minor" when taken into context of the "big picture", these reactions are inevitable. It's a sore topic, and just like the devs are human, so is the pvp playerbase.

Olauron · January 2022

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

show previous quotes

Olauron wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.

Your comment is misplaced here.

Players are questioning quality rather than design choices.

Go look up some games where the players left.

Doesn't matter.

It does though.

If it didn't then zos would not constantly address it and state they are working on here.

You're kind of just arguing for the sake of it while missing the pretty obvious.

ZOS may repeat "we are working on it" how much ZOS wants. They may, but they don't have to. One time is enough to let players know that they are aware. Everything else is extra communication, as the result of the awareness is not the players' concern.

ApoAlaia · January 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

show previous quotes

IronWooshu wrote: »

I would love to see them delay the new expansion while they fix Cyrodiil so we can catch all the hypocritical PVE players crying on the forums that say PVP players are toxic.

I guarantee if Zenimax breaks something in PVE like purposefully giving PVE players the type of lag in Cyro where they can't barswap and skill activation sometimes takes many seconds while in their favorite raid/dungeons they would complain too.

Truth be told, I'm not very impressed that Molag Kena is still bugging out.

That being said, we have seen ZOS seriously inconvenience PVE players back when Groupfinder was having its rework done. And yeah, there were a ton of complaints. First from PVPers because they canceled Midyear Mayhem, and then from PVEers as the queue problems got worse.

Then the Undaunted Event happened, and the Groupfinder rework failed so bad that ZOS halted and postponed the event. Angry posts. Bitter posts. Much mocking of ZOS.

Then it got postponed again. And again. It was only a couple of months, so not the years that Cyrodiil has been in sad shape. Still - much questioning of ZOS' competence. Wondering if anything was getting done. Much doubt that it would actually work when the Undaunted Event finally happened.

Then it worked, and the negativity went away!

There's other examples. The login queues for PC/EU. The guild trader multi-bid fiascos. Lots of anger while the problems lasted, eased by the promise of ZOS taking action. Once fixed, the anger passed.

But let's just say that I have no doubt that PVE players are capable of pouring just as much salt and toxicity out when their content doesn't work properly as PVPers.

Everyone gets frustrated. It's just that PVPers have been frustrated for so many years, we've pretty much got our own great salt lake with no fixes in sight.

Recently I decided that it was time to put the matter of Master Angler to rest and the irony was not lost in me.

Cyro, which produces enough salt to put the Salar de Uyuni to shame has only a minute amount of saltwater fishing holes.

Not sure if this is developer oversight or just a little dig

MEBengalsFan2001 · January 2022

IMO the big work / task a fixing PVP will result in a refresh for the full game from the ground up. This refresh would also simplify the game making it easier for the developers to make and manage changes. If this happens we will see changes to stats, CP, gear, buffs, debuffs, etc.. in the end this so called big change will make the game not like what we have now and many players who spent hours playing will be vastly disappointed with how simple things have become and players will leave in hoards.

That is what I'm expecting whenever a MMO developers says big changes are being worked on. To me while they are keeping the current game running, they are making major overall to the game core and what we will get will be well not worth the money we put into the game as it is now.

Seen it with DCUO, WOW, Everquest, Neverwinter, etc...

NagualV · January 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

show previous quotes

NagualV wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

VaranisArano wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

This describes the most likely reaction, and that disappoints me.

Like, I'd really like for there to be a middle ground where the personal stream can stay personal and the official communication can be honest and step up to provide that official insight that players are turning to Rich to.

But part of that is also going to require the player community to behave themselves. I haven't forgotten that we lost a lot of communication from the Class Reps after they were savaged by the community for the Dev-driven Murkmire Nerfs, and even more so after a couple of Class Reps broke their NDAs.

While I do think a lot of the negativity about PVP is justifiable, it's also completely counterproductive to lash out at the Devs personally. That only encourages disengagement on their part, which is the opposite of the engaged, sympathetic behavior we want.

This is beautifully put, thank you for these posts. I would give you both a thousand awesomes if I could, but instead I'll give you a cupcake gif. I agree with this 100%
Spoiler

Ok one more thing, regarding the theme of these specific quoted comments.

A question - agreed that lashing out to devs doesnt really solve much.

What is the correct way the pvp community should reach out to devs to express their frustrations, comments about the game, performance etc?

How do you envision it, and has that already happened in the history of the game?

Since I was one of the quoted comments, here's my take on how the community in general and PVPers (of which I am one) in particular would do well to express themselves:

Be polite. Be respectful. Be reasonable. Be clear about your feedback, but also understanding that you, as an individual, are but one player.

That's worked pretty well for me, participating on the forums since Morrowind. In that time, I've had a handful of interactions with the Devs and Mods in the forums that have been pleasant and respectful even when I'm making suggestions or pointing out that they've bugged Plentiful Harvest.

Does it work?

Yes, actually. Sustained, respectful, well-thought-out feedback by a number of players has made substantial changes to ESO.

A list of the PVP-specific changes that happened due to players asking for them:

- Return of faction locked servers (and return of unlocked servers)
- Alliance Change Tokens
- separate campaigns for Imperial City
- various tests made to test things players asked ZOS to test
- no proc sets in one campaign
- Battlegrounds (like, maybe people forget that small scalers were begging ZOS for a gamemode to get away from the zergs of Cyrodiil?)

Some of those I advocated for. Some of those, I didn't. Not that it matters - I'm one person.

What they all have in common is that:
A. Enough people gave sustained, respectful, clear feedback that these were desirable directions for ESO PVP that the Devs decided it was worth doing.

B. They were doable with time and effort.

In terms of performance, we've got A down pat. The Devs know. We've told them.

What we don't have any evidence of is B. Time, yes. Effort, yes. Both have been spent to no avail.

So it's not like sustained negative feedback is going to help or somehow make the fixes doable by magic.

So why not be polite, respectful, and clear about our sustained feedback? We do far less harm that way.

I agree with you 100%, Varanis. I'm of the same school of thought.......

As I responded to the other person though, throughout the games history, numerous civil, well thought out posts/comments have been made by the pvp community. People have been courteous. Yet, look at what it took just to get a simple post from Matt Firor, today, likely a response to this whole thread.

What he posted today is exactly what many of us, for years, have been asking for. That cant be ignored. And although I concede that all by itself the "clip" in question is not as bad as people make it out to be, when taken into context, "big picture",its 100% understandable.

I almost want to argue that it was necessary, as it forced a statement from Matt Firor himself......

Some good has come out of this....

edward_frigidhands · January 2022

Olauron wrote: »

show previous quotes

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

edward_frigidhands wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.

Your comment is misplaced here.

Players are questioning quality rather than design choices.

Go look up some games where the players left.

Doesn't matter.

It does though.

If it didn't then zos would not constantly address it and state they are working on here.

You're kind of just arguing for the sake of it while missing the pretty obvious.

ZOS may repeat "we are working on it" how much ZOS wants. They may, but they don't have to. One time is enough to let players know that they are aware. Everything else is extra communication, as the result of the awareness is not the players' concern.

It actually is if they are paying for it.

Your argument here is quite silly.

Obviously the quality of the product is your concern and providing feedback in a forum where it is asked for is the right thing to do.

SidraWillowsky · January 2022

etchedpixels wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.

And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.

I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.

If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".

Oh, I can guarantee that many of us have. I know that I have. I haven't done this in particular, but I've made stupid mistakes in front of clients. The first time it happened, it wasn't NOT a big deal, but I wasn't in deep trouble. The second time? I was removed from a project at work. This is part of why I find it so frustrating to see this-- I don't know what goes on behind the scenes at Zeni, but I (likely) make a fraction of what Rich does but would be in huge, huge trouble at work for something similar to this.

Projection? Probably. I don't want Rich to get fired or anything like that, but it sucks to see people held to such low standards. Hell, posters on the forums seem to be held to higher standards when it comes to expected behavior...