PvPers how does this make you feel?

neferpitou73

The thing is that this *shouldn't* be a big deal. Someone said something when they got angry on a stream. Wow.

But for the past year at least PvP players' impression of the devs has been that they don't care and think we're a bunch of whiny crybabies. We could always delude ourselves, "well surely they don't really feel that way." But now someone intimately connected to a lead dev just said it on the dev's stream. I find it somewhat telling that my respose wasn't an agry "how dare they!" but a dejected "well they finally said the quiet part out loud"

That lack of trust between the playerbase and the devs is the *real* issue that needs to be fixed.

b101uk

neferpitou73 wrote: »

b101uk wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

b101uk wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

b101uk wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

Right?! We have to buy all the chapters, DLCs, or have eso plus to get all the new gear too. We also buy crown crates, just go take a look at all the fancy mounts in cyrodiil. PvPers also buy houses and decorate, I'm not sure why people even say PvPers don't contribute.

I would wager there is a huge disparity between the monetary value the PvE community imparts over time and that of the PvP community over time, the latter being massively smaller than the former.

so don't go fooling yourself into thinking by any stretch that the PvP community is where the money is, because its not.

I feel like this whole "pve vs pvp" spending more money thing needs to be put aside in view of the bigger picture that is being spelled out here. (Especially since I'm sure they spend as much as a pve player on the same dlcs to keep their edge when new gear is out.) I'm a primarily pve player, and this response to the pvp community concerns me deeply. Why? Because I can only imagine how they think of us concerning other complaints we all share, like how egregious the cash shop has become over the course of the last year (more so than ever) or other valid concerns pve and pvp players alike have.

And if they are willing to behave this way towards the pvp player base, then who knows when they'll turn on the pve community? The housing community? The rp community? All have voiced repeated concerns. Perhaps the clock is ticking until they get mocked too.

Seeing such things makes one feel it could only be a matter of time. As players, we need to be aligned in this and back each other up. What effects one side can, and will, impact the other when it comes to the attitude of a company.

I'm very concerned for the pvp side of the game, and have been for some time. Those players have my support.

you totally miss the point that the PvP focused players are the minority, the PvE focused players are the majority, the bottom line is there is far more money to be had and far more people being kept happy with the PvE side of things, i.e. it would matter not is the average PvP player spends x3 the amount that your average PvE player spends, as it would still fall massively short of the PvE focused revenue.

the cold hard bitter pill is, if the revenue stream from the PvP side of things was far more tangible and closer on par with that of the PvE focused revenue stream then there would be more PvP orientated content, and more time and effort would be given to fixes.

Is it any wander the PvP community gets lightly mocked when many seam to be oblivious to the reality of business, and that PvP is nothing but a sideshow in ESO that the majority has little to no interest in.

You're missing the point that it isn't about the money when it comes to standing against this stuff. It's about players putting aside these attempts to create a division between the pve and pvp player base over things like "who represents more value" and realizing that when it comes to the bigger picture, if pve players let pvp players get pushed around and mocked, then it won't be limited to them. We can't pretend what happens to pvpers has nothing to do with us. If they talk like this about them and treat them like this, then they'll learn they can do it with pve concerns too, regardless of whatever monetary value we have.

The reality is ESO is a revenue stream, there is NO point in trying to pretend that fact is not relevant, or that player numbers who are orientated to one aspect in the main and not another aspect as a whole don't exert a monetary pressure to push game content development towards one form of play over another.


the reality is, there WILL always be a division between the PvE and PvP player base, given some of the negative effects in both are a direct result of trying to support both, and if you want to talk about the bigger picture, then don't ignore big aspects of the bigger picture like business, revenue stream, numbers of people, what pushes developed content in a specific direction, what consumes development time, and the very very simple reality that PvP is a sideshow in ESO.

it seams to me that the wife of someone utilising a bit of lightly mockery is enough to get the professional victims in a tizzy, spouting what if's, rather than taking it for the fact that is was NOTHING more than the wife of someone using lightly mockery.

Can we please stop trying to divide the pvp and pve communities and just agree while the game comment was poorly timed in that stream the reaction shown in the video was unprofessional and inappropriate?

I don't think it was poorly timed or unprofessional and inappropriate, it was nothing but lightly mockery that many are taking out of context, just so they can play their own professional victim card, which is all the rage now a days.

but the pvp and pve communities are divided in a manner of speaking, even though we are all ESO players, there is no point putting your head in the sand and pretending there isn't some division.

Call_of_Red_Mountain

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

They should hire Tharn for their pvp spokesman. That way the insults are at least funny an less painful from a NPC.

😆😆😆

Knockmaker

This is %100 disgraceful. No matter what the player base says to them, there is absolutely no reason justifiable to act this way. They could have simply decided not to read it at all, if hearing valid complaints hurts them so much. Needless to say, the people do not complain about Cyrodiil performance issues for years (which got worse in the last 2 years) for no reason. They are complaning about issues which have been acknowledged by ZoS.

I understand they might be under pressure due to prolonged problems, but this is no valid excuse to react to players -the players who pay for their game and sub to their game- in a disrespectful manner. If those people cannot handle the acknowledged problems, maybe they should consider quiting their job instead of trying to take it out on players. It is not unprecedented that some players can't hold their tongues or check their manners under 100% control at all times (this applies to all mmos most likely), but this provides zero grounds for the officials to respond like that.

There should be an official apology for it at the very least.

Edited: typo

Madhatten512

Lets be honest for all the white knights that hope Rich shouts them out later on his stream or something no other company in gaming would allow their creative director to have a personal stream its the most ridiculous things I have ever seen. If he is going to stream he is responsible for whatever is said in that stream period. The ones defending him just wait until whatever part of the game you enjoy breaks and your belittled for being upset about it. I mean pvp has not worked correctly in five years but at least they are working on it I guess..... Year of performance was two years ago we are in a worse place now than when that started but yea PvP players just cry about everything and complain.... Just cant please those horrible PvP players. I have openly said for awhile now Cyrodiil can't be fixed I am sure they wish they could fix it but they can't. They either are not capable or they do not want to spend the money it would take to do it. Fine. Remove it from the game. Add in more instance based Pvp like real Arena modes with two teams, Private lobbies for GvG. If you want to keep the keep battles do it make it 1 instance keep in a 20v20 or something where the devs control the scale and the strain on the server. I don't think any of the real PvP players left expect these people to work miracles we have given up on that long ago. Just give us a gaming experience that works and be honest about what is actually going on. If they did that the complaining would be cut in half or more. I would miss outnumbered PvP, but I would move on if I got some sort of pvp that actually worked. Thats all anyone is asking for. We have been ignored for years, Vilified by the devs and other parts of the community, and placated with non-sense like "thanks for your patience" or "we are working on it" I and from the reaction over the crown store incident and this latest incident think that a lot of people like myself are all out of patience. Not that ZOS cares. They may make a small statement apologizing for this middle-aged child but I doubt it and thats's fine their apology means even less to me than Rich and his wife's opinion.

Brrrofski

Firstly, crying about people crying about something is ironic.

Secondly, they've been working on it for years, but with no results. So forgive me if I don't have any faith in "they're working on it".

Lastly, I don't want sympathy. I want my skills to work in Cyrodiil.

Elo106

We all knew this, PvP hasnt got any meaningful updates in years, now they are finally admitting it instead of giving us the same old "we are working on a fix"

That being said, even though you expect it, it still hurts to see how they neglect the could be best PvP MMO.

OtarTheMad

Honestly what she said does not bother me and this is coming from someone who once PvP'd all the time but has taken a huge step back since Deadlands dropped. I basically just PvE and do events because I am tired of the lag.

That's just her opinion it seems, oh well. This is also a 20-second clip, we have no idea what she said after or before this. You can clip anything to make it sound bad. Like b101uk said, this is just light mockery and really just made me laugh.

Also, it's not like the player base has not, pretty much, treated ZOS like complete trash even despite their efforts. I believe they are working on it and I believe it when they say, or Rich said, that they found the issue and will be working on a fix. All of that is due to the tests that they did and the feedback they got. Am I mad that it took Cyrodiil to basically not work to finally do something? Absolutely. The fact is I don't work there so I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, I don't know what fixes they have tried and failed and I get that it's impossible for them to recreate issues in Cyrodiil because it only happens on live servers so I am mad that I can't do what I like to do in ESO but I try to keep in mind all those things. That's just me though. Also, they have been working from home since like 2020 so that's not easy either.

madrab73

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Honestly what she said does not bother me and this is coming from someone who once PvP'd all the time but has taken a huge step back since Deadlands dropped. I basically just PvE and do events because I am tired of the lag.

That's just her opinion it seems, oh well. This is also a 20-second clip, we have no idea what she said after or before this. You can clip anything to make it sound bad. Like b101uk said, this is just light mockery and really just made me laugh.

Also, it's not like the player base has not, pretty much, treated ZOS like complete trash even despite their efforts. I believe they are working on it and I believe it when they say, or Rich said, that they found the issue and will be working on a fix. All of that is due to the tests that they did and the feedback they got. Am I mad that it took Cyrodiil to basically not work to finally do something? Absolutely. The fact is I don't work there so I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, I don't know what fixes they have tried and failed and I get that it's impossible for them to recreate issues in Cyrodiil because it only happens on live servers so I am mad that I can't do what I like to do in ESO but I try to keep in mind all those things. That's just me though. Also, they have been working from home since like 2020 so that's not easy either.

2020 was the year of performance complete with road map. Performance has gotten worse since. 'We are working on it' is not an adequate response 2 years later.

OtarTheMad

madrab73 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Honestly what she said does not bother me and this is coming from someone who once PvP'd all the time but has taken a huge step back since Deadlands dropped. I basically just PvE and do events because I am tired of the lag.

That's just her opinion it seems, oh well. This is also a 20-second clip, we have no idea what she said after or before this. You can clip anything to make it sound bad. Like b101uk said, this is just light mockery and really just made me laugh.

Also, it's not like the player base has not, pretty much, treated ZOS like complete trash even despite their efforts. I believe they are working on it and I believe it when they say, or Rich said, that they found the issue and will be working on a fix. All of that is due to the tests that they did and the feedback they got. Am I mad that it took Cyrodiil to basically not work to finally do something? Absolutely. The fact is I don't work there so I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, I don't know what fixes they have tried and failed and I get that it's impossible for them to recreate issues in Cyrodiil because it only happens on live servers so I am mad that I can't do what I like to do in ESO but I try to keep in mind all those things. That's just me though. Also, they have been working from home since like 2020 so that's not easy either.

2020 was the year of performance complete with road map. Performance has gotten worse since. 'We are working on it' is not an adequate response 2 years later.

Well, they have said more about that but the issue is ZOS has so many different platforms for communication that something said in one place is not relayed in another. Maybe they should somehow make all their interviews, magazine articles, forum posts, discord posts, Twitter posts, etc. known instead of people finding out when an ESO player covers it for a YouTube video or someone mentioning it in a forum post or whatever. Like, did you know Gina Bruno posted on Twitter and asked players what they meant by communication, like what it means to them? Found that out in a YouTube video. Matt Firor said in his article on the website about the frustrations with working from home and the delays it has caused and was also mentioned in a few ESO Live shows.

Pepegrillos

It looks bad, it makes Lambert look bad, it makes Zenimax look bad to some extent too.

However, she doesn't work for Zenimax. Also, it's Lambert's personal stream (off the clock, unofficial, and so on). Finally, you can see by his reaction that he doesn't agree with her saying it (I'd like to think that it also means he doesn't agree with what she said, but can't infer that just from his reaction).

In any case, the fact that Lambert's stream is orbited by a select few uncritical, self-serving sycophants explains why this kind of behavior might seem acceptable within the stream. They've created an environment where all criticism is received and perceived as an attack, even a personal attack. No wonder why criticism or less-than-favorable questions can be dealt with derision.

Onyx_Werewolf_Gnome

OP appreciate you posting this

It's not a shock they are so contemptuous of us just surprising that they are not even attempting hide it

They should sell the rights to the video to a PR Company as a training video

Lesson 1
Don't get your mummy to do PR for the company you work for, when people 'are mean to you' (aka have complained about the product they PAY for).

maxjapank

While the number one issue is performance and lag, there are so many other things they could do to improve the quality of life in pvp. Being “stuck in combat” has been a sore spot for a long time. Giving pvp’rs the ability to choose which quests to accept would make life easier, even if it was just scroll quests. Being able to change morphs or attributes in Cyrodill without having to leave would be an acceptable improvement.

I know that it must be tiring to hear complaints from the pvp community, but the pve community complains, too. And unfortunately, there are some real turds. But overall, both communities enjoy the game, we often participate in many different activities, both pvp and pve, and we should be treated with respect.

How she responded was a bit over the line. And she owes the community an apology. If I had been sitting there, I would’ve quickly spoken up. It’s obvious that Rich knew what was being said was a bit too much. A mistake was made and we can be forgiving, but someone needs to step up and address this promptly.

Indigogo

Some of you haven't spent much time in the corporate world. Heck even small businesses have clauses in your employment agreement about bringing the company into disrepute.

Obligation to your employer does not stop once you clock off. How naive.

If your partner goes and murders someone and you're plastered over the news walking into the courtroom in your work uniform, logo on display for the world to see, you bet your behind you will face consequences.

Jaimeh

At some point you have to assess the situation with a critical eye and realize that even if they are actually working on it, as they say, they have little to nothing to show for it, so their efforts haven't been successful. No need to reiterate the bad state of PvP or how neglected it has been, but I'd appreciate an official response, with facts and evidence of their work, things they have tried, what did they take away from all the Cyro tests, etc., and not off-hand comments during streams that can potentially sound a bit hollow and condenscending.

Hlanu

She is his wife, not his mother.

BlossomDead

Less time on mocking paying customers on stream and more time on fixing live production issues (including overtime, as they should be a priority, especially performance), perhaps?

I can't even begin to comprehend how you can consistently be allowing this lag/latency/desync for years and still have the audacity to bring in your family members to interfere with your work in this fashion. Or have a job anymore in that regard.

It's time for some new game direction IMHO. And given how passionate the PvP community is, I'd rather have a director that can see a market opportunity in developing and streamlining the PvP experience, turning it into one of the company's profit drivers, rather than the most basic John Doe that can only see the game from a limited perspective.

Quite honestly their reaction just underlines the state the game is at (that also bleeds into PvE as nowadays often times performance is an issue too).

colossalvoids

It's all fine and dandy his wife sharing her outlook and opinions in a manner she wants to but that's just a one person not involved with Zeni and not even playing pvp to begin with. Sure she knows they're working on it, unlike hundreds of thousands players that not watching Rich streams to get at least some info before getting banned. Communication, huh.

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

"I have no sympathy because I know they're working on it"

Mechanic: "Wahh Wahh Wahh, You need your car to drive your kids to school instead of taking the bus? I have no sympathy for you, because I know they're trying to fix your car.

Yeah that's how I'm viewing this after spending money for years here lol.

BoraxFlux

A snippet without good context nor is constructive and just an opinion of someone that hasn't been properly introduced. No, I don't feel a thing.

EdmondDontes

Gederic wrote: »

What ramifications? Enduring another forum thread next week full of fake and hilarious outrage over something irrelevant and written by people who will continue to play and pay regardless of all that totally real anger? Think he might just be okay.

In the long run you are probably right. But this is legitimately seen as a dev telling a significant portion of the player base to go suck a dirty gym sock. Those of us who have been struggling to believe the "we're working on it" line for over four years are not instilled with confidence when we see things like this. There are a lot of people who will see this and decide they can never believe another word Lambert says. There will be no going back for them, not after four years plus of apparently being strung along and misdirected.

ShalidorsHeir

Ouch.
A lot of my friends share the opinion that ZOS does nothing other than lying straight out when it comes to pvp and performance topics. I kept telling them to stay positive ... well, when they see this video or stream - i will be unable to keep them staying positive.... i guess for the next 10 years. This is going to be another meme, a running gag for eternity.

EdmondDontes

b101uk wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

b101uk wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

b101uk wrote: »

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

b101uk wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

Right?! We have to buy all the chapters, DLCs, or have eso plus to get all the new gear too. We also buy crown crates, just go take a look at all the fancy mounts in cyrodiil. PvPers also buy houses and decorate, I'm not sure why people even say PvPers don't contribute.

I would wager there is a huge disparity between the monetary value the PvE community imparts over time and that of the PvP community over time, the latter being massively smaller than the former.

so don't go fooling yourself into thinking by any stretch that the PvP community is where the money is, because its not.

I feel like this whole "pve vs pvp" spending more money thing needs to be put aside in view of the bigger picture that is being spelled out here. (Especially since I'm sure they spend as much as a pve player on the same dlcs to keep their edge when new gear is out.) I'm a primarily pve player, and this response to the pvp community concerns me deeply. Why? Because I can only imagine how they think of us concerning other complaints we all share, like how egregious the cash shop has become over the course of the last year (more so than ever) or other valid concerns pve and pvp players alike have.

And if they are willing to behave this way towards the pvp player base, then who knows when they'll turn on the pve community? The housing community? The rp community? All have voiced repeated concerns. Perhaps the clock is ticking until they get mocked too.

Seeing such things makes one feel it could only be a matter of time. As players, we need to be aligned in this and back each other up. What effects one side can, and will, impact the other when it comes to the attitude of a company.

I'm very concerned for the pvp side of the game, and have been for some time. Those players have my support.

you totally miss the point that the PvP focused players are the minority, the PvE focused players are the majority, the bottom line is there is far more money to be had and far more people being kept happy with the PvE side of things, i.e. it would matter not is the average PvP player spends x3 the amount that your average PvE player spends, as it would still fall massively short of the PvE focused revenue.

the cold hard bitter pill is, if the revenue stream from the PvP side of things was far more tangible and closer on par with that of the PvE focused revenue stream then there would be more PvP orientated content, and more time and effort would be given to fixes.

Is it any wander the PvP community gets lightly mocked when many seam to be oblivious to the reality of business, and that PvP is nothing but a sideshow in ESO that the majority has little to no interest in.

You're missing the point that it isn't about the money when it comes to standing against this stuff. It's about players putting aside these attempts to create a division between the pve and pvp player base over things like "who represents more value" and realizing that when it comes to the bigger picture, if pve players let pvp players get pushed around and mocked, then it won't be limited to them. We can't pretend what happens to pvpers has nothing to do with us. If they talk like this about them and treat them like this, then they'll learn they can do it with pve concerns too, regardless of whatever monetary value we have.

The reality is ESO is a revenue stream, there is NO point in trying to pretend that fact is not relevant, or that player numbers who are orientated to one aspect in the main and not another aspect as a whole don't exert a monetary pressure to push game content development towards one form of play over another.


the reality is, there WILL always be a division between the PvE and PvP player base, given some of the negative effects in both are a direct result of trying to support both, and if you want to talk about the bigger picture, then don't ignore big aspects of the bigger picture like business, revenue stream, numbers of people, what pushes developed content in a specific direction, what consumes development time, and the very very simple reality that PvP is a sideshow in ESO.

it seams to me that the wife of someone utilising a bit of lightly mockery is enough to get the professional victims in a tizzy, spouting what if's, rather than taking it for the fact that is was NOTHING more than the wife of someone using lightly mockery.

Can we please stop trying to divide the pvp and pve communities and just agree while the game comment was poorly timed in that stream the reaction shown in the video was unprofessional and inappropriate?

I don't think it was poorly timed or unprofessional and inappropriate, it was nothing but lightly mockery that many are taking out of context, just so they can play their own professional victim card, which is all the rage now a days.

but the pvp and pve communities are divided in a manner of speaking, even though we are all ESO players, there is no point putting your head in the sand and pretending there isn't some division.

The video is confirmation that the "we're working on it" line is likely not legitimate.

ButternutJam

AuraNebula wrote: »

https://youtu.be/oSDxjJ15YII

I guess we are all just a bunch of crybabies who only like to troll developers. Forget that we have invested years and thousands of hours into a game that we love. Some people may come across as demanding, but in reality they are frustrated and just want a game that works.

Edit: Performance has been bad for years and many PvPers have felt neglected because of it. For years we have heard "We are working on it" and now those words do not mean anything. We don't know what they are working on. We have no way of knowing when they estimate it will be fixed. We just get shamed for caring. If we don't like it we can play another game according to that lady.

Dude just sell your account and quit playing this game, they just ruined there pr relations with players, even if its a dev’s “wife” trying to defend him, its already in a bad state, they dont even care about pvp, only money, look at the crown store it has more outfit and pets & mounts releases than an actual items that are released into dlcs for free.

atherusmora

Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »

I dont know how it work in the u.s…
Sure, its insulting for the pvp and hould not have been said but again not his fault
What next? If is that woman murder a player, it would be is fault?

Here in the USA he would be implicated, and charged as an accessory to murder since he is sitting right there behind her, and does nothing to prevent it from happening, or to correct the situation.

atherusmora

Also, shocked that this thread is still open. Yikes ZOS.

madrab73

OtarTheMad wrote: »

madrab73 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Honestly what she said does not bother me and this is coming from someone who once PvP'd all the time but has taken a huge step back since Deadlands dropped. I basically just PvE and do events because I am tired of the lag.

That's just her opinion it seems, oh well. This is also a 20-second clip, we have no idea what she said after or before this. You can clip anything to make it sound bad. Like b101uk said, this is just light mockery and really just made me laugh.

Also, it's not like the player base has not, pretty much, treated ZOS like complete trash even despite their efforts. I believe they are working on it and I believe it when they say, or Rich said, that they found the issue and will be working on a fix. All of that is due to the tests that they did and the feedback they got. Am I mad that it took Cyrodiil to basically not work to finally do something? Absolutely. The fact is I don't work there so I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, I don't know what fixes they have tried and failed and I get that it's impossible for them to recreate issues in Cyrodiil because it only happens on live servers so I am mad that I can't do what I like to do in ESO but I try to keep in mind all those things. That's just me though. Also, they have been working from home since like 2020 so that's not easy either.

2020 was the year of performance complete with road map. Performance has gotten worse since. 'We are working on it' is not an adequate response 2 years later.

Well, they have said more about that but the issue is ZOS has so many different platforms for communication that something said in one place is not relayed in another. Maybe they should somehow make all their interviews, magazine articles, forum posts, discord posts, Twitter posts, etc. known instead of people finding out when an ESO player covers it for a YouTube video or someone mentioning it in a forum post or whatever. Like, did you know Gina Bruno posted on Twitter and asked players what they meant by communication, like what it means to them? Found that out in a YouTube video. Matt Firor said in his article on the website about the frustrations with working from home and the delays it has caused and was also mentioned in a few ESO Live shows.

Good idea, maybe they can change the live stream event on the 27th to a detailed breakdown of how they intend to improve performance in PVE and PVP this year?

VaranisArano

atherusmora wrote: »

Also, shocked that this thread is still open. Yikes ZOS.

Gotta keep in mind that the majority of ZOS' employees are in NA. So the late night forum drama threads don't get closed til the mods log on in the morning.

As for anyone expecting a response from ZOS, I'd be shocked if we get anything before office hours so that Rich and the communications team has had a change to figure out what's going on and how to respond.

Temper your expectations, and all that.

Nanfoodle

She may mock us, but I quit ESO for a year and a half over this. After seeing this, I may unsub again.

atherusmora

VaranisArano wrote: »

atherusmora wrote: »

Also, shocked that this thread is still open. Yikes ZOS.

Gotta keep in mind that the majority of ZOS' employees are in NA. So the late night forum drama threads don't get closed til the mods log on in the morning.

As for anyone expecting a response from ZOS, I'd be shocked if we get anything before office hours so that Rich and the communications team has had a change to figure out what's going on and how to respond.

Temper your expectations, and all that.

Point taken.

Murky_Dregs

This is atrocious.

No company that takes its business and customer service seriously would tolerate such unprofessional behavior.

She'd be fired on the spot.

I pay this game hundreds of dollars a year; it's plainly obvious that ZoS is a grift at this point.