PvPers how does this make you feel?
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »
We know it is also Rich's opinion because he did nothing to correct the record. This is not a one off comment. It's a consistent theme on their stream.
We were two years into this conversation prior to COVID. Sure, there have been issues related to COVID and keeping the business running, but developing video games is also a profession that easily lends itself to remote production.
There is zero evidence that they are working on performance issues. In more than four years of this discussion things have degraded, not improved. So even if they are "working on it", they have provided no details of any kind, just their words with negative results. So expecting anyone to believe they are actually working on performance issues at this point doesn't fly.
Eh, they have working on it. It's just that nothing's worked to fix the big pain points.
The no proc set tests were originally about performance, remember? (Didn't make a difference)
The Champion Point rework was also supposed to help streamline some server-side checks.
We've had a number of small fixes to crashes.
So they are doing work on it.
It's just a little like fixing the dents on a car while the engine is failing.6 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
I honestly agree 100% that that's needed. The reason people are pestering Rich so much is because he's the only source of frequent and consistent communication. I really hope the solution is we get more official streams and not Rich just stops doing it because he doesn't want to deal with things like things. It's pretty obvious to me that the lack of this is the core of how this happened.
Yeah, I'd hate for this to become a case of "This is why we can't have nice things." I don't watch streamers, but theirs seems fun.4 -
ShalidorsHeir✭✭✭✭InaMoonlight wrote: »I snortgrinned and nosefountained my coffee
@InaMoonlight im with you xDD the more i realized how many crazy things happened and were caused within this 20 secs the funnier it gets Eltrys Wolfszahn
Julia Ansei at-Tava
C H I M
"Find a new hill, become a king"2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.
I kind of doubt that the Devs' vision is a Cyrodiil where players get stuck in combat, lag, skills don't fire, and they've had to slash the max population to a fraction of what it was at launch.
But what do I know?14 -
InaMoonlight✭✭✭✭✭ShalidorsHeir wrote: »
@InaMoonlight im with you xDD the more i realized how many crazy things happened and were caused within this 20 secs the funnier it gets
I think we see him mouthe "Oh no are you trying to get us killed?!" Edit = Typos ... as usual. <;D2 -
Destai✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »So in context, I think it's better and worse than I expected.
How its better: I found her irritation more understandable in that the PVP question interrupted a fairly serious conversation about accessibility for players who would benefit from better visual options. They were talking about weighing options people want (like bards) and options players need (like accessibility).
Then the PVP question drops in there trying to make it seem like PVP performance is equivalent to a visual disability.
I mean, I like PVP a lot. But even I had the reaction of "Just no, that's not how you ask if you want a serious answer." I'd be irritated too. (Maybe I'm putting an unfair construction on the question, but that's my first impression of it in context. So, sorry if I'm being unfair.)
The player asking about bards was a LOT more gracious, by the way, stating that they'd rather have the accessibility issues come first for the sake of people who they know would benefit.
If I have issues with reaction times and I press a button and the skill doesn't respond, it's going to confound an already challenging experience. Skill response is an accessibility issue.VaranisArano wrote: »
How it's worse: Rich's wife talked about how she talks to him about the ideas she thinks are worth fighting for (like visual accessibility.)
On the one hand, she's a player too. She can fight for the issues she thinks are important, just like we can...albeit she has a more personal connection. I imagine that's a tight line to walk some days.
On the other hand, if she's talking about unofficially representing certain player concerns, there's a reason there's a backlash from the PVP players who were just told "I have no sympathy."
There's a reason the official player representatives were chosen for their skill in PVE and PVP.
She needs coaching at best. Personally, I don't think she should be giving us updates at all. It's not her place, she doesn't work for ZOS. Her behavior is completely unacceptable, Rich didn't control it, and as a result I believe there needs to be disciplinary actions taken here.
I work in software consulting and if my gf spoke to one of my clients on a call, and said anything, I'd be fired. This is no different.VaranisArano wrote: »
In the 15 minutes I watched, it really solidified my perception that Rich's stream is one of the few ways that players are getting regular info about what the Devs are doing and thinking regarding specific player concerns. Rich and his wife briefly talked about bards, visual accessibility, concerns regarding day/night cycle controls, more character slots, new class development, and PVP.
This is a "personal" stream. But when it's giving information that can't be found through official channels, it shouldn't be any surprise that players who want answers are pushing more and more emphasis onto that "personal" stream.
Suggestion for the Communications Team: If you want to take the heat off of Rich and his Stream as one of the few ways to actually have a real back-and-forth conversation with one of the Devs, have you considered providing more official versions of the type of information he's sharing on stream? Even regular Q&As or Ask Me Anythings might help.
These forums have laid out ample suggestions for what we'd like to see communication. Rich is too scared to spend more than 30 minutes here, as stated by him on his stream. And Gina's too busy on Twitter.
I've written Gina on Twitter since that's seemingly the only medium she actually cares about. She asks about communication - well, there's no reason they can't hire some BAs or Change Managers to manage technical updates. Save us the cute posts on Twitter, save us the insults from his wife, and crown store sales exploiting new players ignorance. Start with meaningfully communicating changes. All they need to do is post on their site and here what's being worked on, like once a quarter.19 -
EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »
Eh, they have working on it. It's just that nothing's worked to fix the big pain points.
The no proc set tests were originally about performance, remember? (Didn't make a difference)
The Champion Point rework was also supposed to help streamline some server-side checks.
We've had a number of small fixes to crashes.
So they are doing work on it.
It's just a little like fixing the dents on a car while the engine is failing.
In the discussion thread about those tests they clearly say they are going to report back to the community the results of those tests. Can you point us to where they communicated their results and what they learned?
At some point people have to demand results for their money. "We're working on it" does not constitute results. When "we're working on it" is combined with mocking, it really fails hard.9 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »
I kind of doubt that the Devs' vision is a Cyrodiil where players get stuck in combat, lag, skills don't fire, and they've had to slash the max population to a fraction of what it was at launch.
But what do I know?
And they can fix it with any priority they feel right (or don't fix at all, if there are more important things in their vision to spend time and resources to).
The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
Kryptonite_Kent✭✭✭✭Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.
Umm thats not how games work, if you have no players then you have no game to have a vision for chief...Former Emperor
Animus Impetum -DC- Magplar
Animus Impetus -AD- Magplar
Impetus Animus -EP- Magplar
Kryptonite Kent -AD- Stamblade
Kenobi Wan -AD- Magsorc14 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »
In the discussion thread about those tests they clearly say they are going to report back to the community the results of those tests. Can you point us to where they communicated their results and what they learned?
At some point people have to demand results for their money. "We're working on it" does not constitute results. When "we're working on it" is combined with mocking, it really fails hard.
You mean the No Proc tests?
From Gina, the results:
"Thanks to everyone for participating in this latest Cyrodiil test where we disabled all proc sets. Similar to what many of you have noted in your feedback, we found this test did not impact performance in a measurable amount; if anything, there was a very slight degradation of performance at times, likely due to a higher population of players in Cyrodiil.
We’ve heard from a lot of you that despite performance largely being the same, disabling proc sets has breathed new life into PvP gameplay and has made fights more enjoyable and fun. To that end, we’ll be leaving proc sets disabled until Update 31 launches in Q3. At that point, we will have implemented some new code so we can have more flexibility to campaign rulesets as it applies to proc sets. We’ll work on applying all this to consoles as well, and we’ll let you know when we have a date for this starting.
Now that we’ve had time to digest a lot of data and information, we have a better idea of next steps and the work needed to produce noticeable improvements to performance in Cyrodiil. This work is complex and will take a fair amount of time and effort. We are committed to improving the PvP experience, though, and we have already begun scheduling out this work. Please note that none of the scheduled work will implement any of the changes we made on PC during past tests, and at this time we don’t plan to run any additional tests.
When Update 29 launches on Monday for PC, we’ll be turning off double AP but proc sets will remain disabled as mentioned above. We appreciate the time everyone spent in Cyrodiil during these tests and all the feedback that’s been submitted."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7149943#Comment_7149943
Now, I don't think we've heard much more about scheduling out the next steps, as she mentioned. Part of that might be pandemic disruptions. Part of that might be, as Gina noted on her Twitter, that updates like "we're still working on it" are unsatisfying.
Or, there might be no progress at all. Who knows? We've certainly see no major improvements.4 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »
Umm thats not how games work, if you have no players then you have no game to have a vision for chief...
If a game has no players, it may change... or may stay true to its concept. It is not up to a player to decide. I would much rather have a game hated by the players for being what it is than a game hated by its creators for not being what it should be.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.1 -
EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
No. You paid for the fruits of her husband's labor, not his house. He earned that with his work. You got something out of the business arrangement too.
Secondly I already said her comment was inappropriate and he should apologize.
Most people don't pay to be mocked and lied to.17 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.
Your comment is misplaced here.
Players are questioning quality rather than design choices.
Go look up some games where the players left.14 -
ShalidorsHeir✭✭✭✭another episode of: How to ruin your husbands day 101 - the lambert editionEltrys Wolfszahn
Julia Ansei at-Tava
C H I M
"Find a new hill, become a king"17 -
EdmondDontes✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »
You mean the No Proc tests?
From Gina, the results:
"Thanks to everyone for participating in this latest Cyrodiil test where we disabled all proc sets. Similar to what many of you have noted in your feedback, we found this test did not impact performance in a measurable amount; if anything, there was a very slight degradation of performance at times, likely due to a higher population of players in Cyrodiil.
We’ve heard from a lot of you that despite performance largely being the same, disabling proc sets has breathed new life into PvP gameplay and has made fights more enjoyable and fun. To that end, we’ll be leaving proc sets disabled until Update 31 launches in Q3. At that point, we will have implemented some new code so we can have more flexibility to campaign rulesets as it applies to proc sets. We’ll work on applying all this to consoles as well, and we’ll let you know when we have a date for this starting.
Now that we’ve had time to digest a lot of data and information, we have a better idea of next steps and the work needed to produce noticeable improvements to performance in Cyrodiil. This work is complex and will take a fair amount of time and effort. We are committed to improving the PvP experience, though, and we have already begun scheduling out this work. Please note that none of the scheduled work will implement any of the changes we made on PC during past tests, and at this time we don’t plan to run any additional tests.
When Update 29 launches on Monday for PC, we’ll be turning off double AP but proc sets will remain disabled as mentioned above. We appreciate the time everyone spent in Cyrodiil during these tests and all the feedback that’s been submitted."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7149943#Comment_7149943
Now, I don't think we've heard much more about scheduling out the next steps, as she mentioned. Part of that might be pandemic disruptions. Part of that might be, as Gina noted on her Twitter, that updates like "we're still working on it" are unsatisfying.
Or, there might be no progress at all. Who knows? We've certainly see no major improvements.
Thank you for the link.
I couldn't help but notice that in her response though, she clearly says that they will keep proc sets disabled because it has energized the player base and made fights more competitive. Now we have Dark Convergence and Plaguebreak and it's a proc cheese meta. So they went the other direction from what they say was working for them at that time.
I guess I've just heard "we're working on it" too many times over the last four years. It's a trigger now.8 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭
We can agree that the question in the stream was poorly timed but the amount of people defending what was said is somewhat sad as is the toxicity toward a portion of the playerbase for asking for a working game.
Imagine if for the past three years the following had been happening:
--trial bosses started glitching making the fights unwinnable
--Your break-free mechanics stopped working in the middle of a fight and you get killed by a one-shot mechanic
--All of your skills stop working during a key point in a boss fight: you can't dps down the boss's adds fast enough, you're healers barrier doesn't go off and half the team wipes.
--As time goes on it gets worse, it feels like your character is running into molasses half the time
--All of a sudden the game stops working and half the raid group is kicked from the game just as you were about to win the final boss fight.
And this happens every other time you get on. But don't worry the devs are "working on it" all these years by:
--Adding cooldowns to half your important skills, because that's totally what's causing the problem
--Turning off half your sets, because that's totally what's causing the problem
While at the same time adding more broken mechanics that make the problems worse. Furthermore the reaction of other players to your plight is:
--"Why do you keep bringing down the mood; they said they're working on it!"
--"It really only affects hardmode DLC dungeons so the portion of the playerbase this affects is too small; I spend more money than you do on housing, so of course they'll listen to me!"
And now one of the most prominant dev's significant others comes out on stream and insults you for wanting the game to work.22 -
spartaxoxo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EdmondDontes wrote: »
Most people don't pay to be mocked and lied to.
You didn't. The product you bought was eso. His wife doesn't even work for the company. I appreciate you're upset, and you have every right to be. But let's also realize that a fair accounting of what happened is something we'd all want.5 -
Olauron✭✭✭✭✭
✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »
Your comment is misplaced here.
Players are questioning quality rather than design choices.
Go look up some games where the players left.
Doesn't matter. The devs know about issues. The time, resources and the ability to fix code are finite. No number of questions will make fixing faster. On the other hand, I fully understand a developer who would simply say "screw it" and stop fixing or get rid of the feature just to get rid of the players who annoy non-stop.The Three Storm Sharks, episode 8 released on january the 8th.
One mer to rule them all,
one mer to find them,
One mer to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them.3 -
NagualV✭✭✭✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
I actually completely understand PvPers frustration with how long it's taking, and also think some of this is self inflicted by the devs because of a lack of roadmap and updates.
Again, I think it's good that you are trying to look at this from a balanced point of view. I always try my best to look at both sides of an argument and keep an open mind, so I appreciate you trying to do the same thing. I want to reiterate that I am a firm believer that the majority of BOTH pvp'ers and pve'rs are good folks and are not toxic. It's not good to be divided.
I wanted to say one final thing, about your quoted comment. ZOS, Rich, Gina...they're all smart people. This game would not be so successful(I no longer play yet I still feel connected to the game because of all the fun I've had) if they werent. My point -
WHY is there no official pvp roadmap, or updates....something reasonably frequent....we can only speculate, but when I do, I just dont feel comfortable. None of the scenarios that I come up with as to why this doesnt exist give me hope, or comfort. Assuming all what you have said about this latest "clip" is true, that it was a faux paus, etc....you combine the comments with this lack of vision....its very difficult to come up with a scenario that isnt "pvp is on the back burner"
Anyway, I'll always keep an eye out on the game. Maybe well all be proven wrong in a couple of weeks....6 -
IronWooshu✭✭✭✭✭
✭I would love to see them delay the new expansion while they fix Cyrodiil so we can catch all the hypocritical PVE players crying on the forums that say PVP players are toxic.
I guarantee if Zenimax breaks something in PVE like purposefully giving PVE players the type of lag in Cyro where they can't barswap and skill activation sometimes takes many seconds while in their favorite raid/dungeons they would complain too.
9 -
Dojohoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So.. how is that work going? We'd really like to know.
Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
Might be joking in comments.
-->(((Cyrodiil)))<--7 -
etchedpixels✭✭✭✭✭
✭spartaxoxo wrote: »
It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.
And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.
I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.
If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".
Too many toons not enough time6 -
Wolfkeks✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Suggestion for the Communications Team: If you want to take the heat off of Rich and his Stream as one of the few ways to actually have a real back-and-forth conversation with one of the Devs, have you considered providing more official versions of the type of information he's sharing on stream? Even regular Q&As or Ask Me Anythings might help.
This! I think having an official place for this would solve a lot of problems and not only PvP related ones. I've seen people asking Rich about PvE related bugs and other things too and understandably he can't answer all of them or know about the statuses. Having a place for this kinds of questions would def help with the communication issues.
EU PC 2000+ CP professional mudballer and pie thrower"Sheggorath, you are the Skooma Cat, for what is crazier than a cat on skooma?" - FadomaiSpoilerFormer Emperor, Grand Overlord, vAA hm, vHelRa hm, vSO hm, vMoL hm, vHoF hm, vAS+2, vCR+3, vSS hm, vKA, vRG, Flawless Conquerer, Spirit SlayerGod Slayer
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SammyKhajit✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Is this lady an employee of ZOS? Under what capacity is she speaking on behalf of the game?
Entertaining rant from her though. Missed the point re ZOS promise to improve customer service and communication. But still entertaining.1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭etchedpixels wrote: »
And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.
I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.
If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".
This describes the most likely reaction, and that disappoints me.
Like, I'd really like for there to be a middle ground where the personal stream can stay personal and the official communication can be honest and step up to provide that official insight that players are turning to Rich to.
But part of that is also going to require the player community to behave themselves. I haven't forgotten that we lost a lot of communication from the Class Reps after they were savaged by the community for the Dev-driven Murkmire Nerfs, and even more so after a couple of Class Reps broke their NDAs.
While I do think a lot of the negativity about PVP is justifiable, it's also completely counterproductive to lash out at the Devs personally. That only encourages disengagement on their part, which is the opposite of the engaged, sympathetic behavior we want.4 -
Malthorne✭✭✭✭✭
✭If this is what they are willing to put on video, imagine what they say about us in private.13 -
neferpitou73✭✭✭✭✭
✭[snip]
The thing is tho this isn't about that one comment. In the grand scheme of things that's insignificant and the player who asked that question during that segment was way out of line. But the response of Rich's wife follows a pattern of dismissiveness toward their playerbase the devs have taken over the years; the video was taken for many people as a confirmation of that because it was finally said out loud. And that pattern of behavior is the real issue not this one stupid coment.
[edited to remove quoted content]Edited by ZOS_Ragnar on January 12, 2022 5:28PM11 -
Nanfoodle✭✭✭✭✭[snip]
Its not an over reaction when the PvP fan base has been begging for help for many years with little or no response from Zen. The few promises they have made have not happened. Getting this type of response when in effect this problem is like putting on and ripping off a band aid on same problem again and again. The cut this has caused is now festering.
Think for a moment if the Trial community had lag so consistent that raids were cancelled on a regular basis? And when they got a raid rolling, pressing abilities took 5-10 seconds to fire off or lagged out so bad sometimes the abilities did not go off at all, causing wipe after wipe? How would they feel if mocked after years and years of this problem?
[edited to remove quoted content]Edited by ZOS_Ragnar on January 12, 2022 5:27PM10
This discussion has been closed.