EdmondDontes wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »This honestly has me really fired up, I hope everyone shares this video in their pvp guilds discord channels so all the pvp base can see what they think about their own players... and maybe rethink all those ESO plus memberships...
It's not the opinion of anyone who works for ZOS, just a wife being a bit too protective of a dev.
They are working on it really hard actually, and the pandemic really screwed them over. They are performing an entire rearchitecture just because of PVP, and they are also upgrading to better servers which got delayed due to Covid.
Rich gets a ton of questions about pvp when he streams. I actually watched his stream a few times and it was a ton of them and most of what he'd have to answer. She clearly got fed up with it and did something she shouldn't have but I don't think it represents what he thinks or zos. Just what is stressing him out at work and someone doing too much about it.
We know it is also Rich's opinion because he did nothing to correct the record. This is not a one off comment. It's a consistent theme on their stream.
We were two years into this conversation prior to COVID. Sure, there have been issues related to COVID and keeping the business running, but developing video games is also a profession that easily lends itself to remote production.
There is zero evidence that they are working on performance issues. In more than four years of this discussion things have degraded, not improved. So even if they are "working on it", they have provided no details of any kind, just their words with negative results. So expecting anyone to believe they are actually working on performance issues at this point doesn't fly.
spartaxoxo wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Suggestion for the Communications Team: If you want to take the heat off of Rich and his Stream as one of the few ways to actually have a real back-and-forth conversation with one of the Devs, have you considered providing more official versions of the type of information he's sharing on stream? Even regular Q&As or Ask Me Anythings might help.
I honestly agree 100% that that's needed. The reason people are pestering Rich so much is because he's the only source of frequent and consistent communication. I really hope the solution is we get more official streams and not Rich just stops doing it because he doesn't want to deal with things like things. It's pretty obvious to me that the lack of this is the core of how this happened.
InaMoonlight wrote: »I snortgrinned and nosefountained my coffee
Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.
ShalidorsHeir wrote: »InaMoonlight wrote: »I snortgrinned and nosefountained my coffee
@InaMoonlight im with you xDD the more i realized how many crazy things happened and were caused within this 20 secs the funnier it gets
VaranisArano wrote: »So in context, I think it's better and worse than I expected.
How its better: I found her irritation more understandable in that the PVP question interrupted a fairly serious conversation about accessibility for players who would benefit from better visual options. They were talking about weighing options people want (like bards) and options players need (like accessibility).
Then the PVP question drops in there trying to make it seem like PVP performance is equivalent to a visual disability.
I mean, I like PVP a lot. But even I had the reaction of "Just no, that's not how you ask if you want a serious answer." I'd be irritated too. (Maybe I'm putting an unfair construction on the question, but that's my first impression of it in context. So, sorry if I'm being unfair.)
The player asking about bards was a LOT more gracious, by the way, stating that they'd rather have the accessibility issues come first for the sake of people who they know would benefit.
VaranisArano wrote: »
How it's worse: Rich's wife talked about how she talks to him about the ideas she thinks are worth fighting for (like visual accessibility.)
On the one hand, she's a player too. She can fight for the issues she thinks are important, just like we can...albeit she has a more personal connection. I imagine that's a tight line to walk some days.
On the other hand, if she's talking about unofficially representing certain player concerns, there's a reason there's a backlash from the PVP players who were just told "I have no sympathy."
There's a reason the official player representatives were chosen for their skill in PVE and PVP.
VaranisArano wrote: »
In the 15 minutes I watched, it really solidified my perception that Rich's stream is one of the few ways that players are getting regular info about what the Devs are doing and thinking regarding specific player concerns. Rich and his wife briefly talked about bards, visual accessibility, concerns regarding day/night cycle controls, more character slots, new class development, and PVP.
This is a "personal" stream. But when it's giving information that can't be found through official channels, it shouldn't be any surprise that players who want answers are pushing more and more emphasis onto that "personal" stream.
Suggestion for the Communications Team: If you want to take the heat off of Rich and his Stream as one of the few ways to actually have a real back-and-forth conversation with one of the Devs, have you considered providing more official versions of the type of information he's sharing on stream? Even regular Q&As or Ask Me Anythings might help.
VaranisArano wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »This honestly has me really fired up, I hope everyone shares this video in their pvp guilds discord channels so all the pvp base can see what they think about their own players... and maybe rethink all those ESO plus memberships...
It's not the opinion of anyone who works for ZOS, just a wife being a bit too protective of a dev.
They are working on it really hard actually, and the pandemic really screwed them over. They are performing an entire rearchitecture just because of PVP, and they are also upgrading to better servers which got delayed due to Covid.
Rich gets a ton of questions about pvp when he streams. I actually watched his stream a few times and it was a ton of them and most of what he'd have to answer. She clearly got fed up with it and did something she shouldn't have but I don't think it represents what he thinks or zos. Just what is stressing him out at work and someone doing too much about it.
We know it is also Rich's opinion because he did nothing to correct the record. This is not a one off comment. It's a consistent theme on their stream.
We were two years into this conversation prior to COVID. Sure, there have been issues related to COVID and keeping the business running, but developing video games is also a profession that easily lends itself to remote production.
There is zero evidence that they are working on performance issues. In more than four years of this discussion things have degraded, not improved. So even if they are "working on it", they have provided no details of any kind, just their words with negative results. So expecting anyone to believe they are actually working on performance issues at this point doesn't fly.
Eh, they have working on it. It's just that nothing's worked to fix the big pain points.
The no proc set tests were originally about performance, remember? (Didn't make a difference)
The Champion Point rework was also supposed to help streamline some server-side checks.
We've had a number of small fixes to crashes.
So they are doing work on it.
It's just a little like fixing the dents on a car while the engine is failing.
VaranisArano wrote: »Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.
I kind of doubt that the Devs' vision is a Cyrodiil where players get stuck in combat, lag, skills don't fire, and they've had to slash the max population to a fraction of what it was at launch.
But what do I know?
Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.
EdmondDontes wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »This honestly has me really fired up, I hope everyone shares this video in their pvp guilds discord channels so all the pvp base can see what they think about their own players... and maybe rethink all those ESO plus memberships...
It's not the opinion of anyone who works for ZOS, just a wife being a bit too protective of a dev.
They are working on it really hard actually, and the pandemic really screwed them over. They are performing an entire rearchitecture just because of PVP, and they are also upgrading to better servers which got delayed due to Covid.
Rich gets a ton of questions about pvp when he streams. I actually watched his stream a few times and it was a ton of them and most of what he'd have to answer. She clearly got fed up with it and did something she shouldn't have but I don't think it represents what he thinks or zos. Just what is stressing him out at work and someone doing too much about it.
We know it is also Rich's opinion because he did nothing to correct the record. This is not a one off comment. It's a consistent theme on their stream.
We were two years into this conversation prior to COVID. Sure, there have been issues related to COVID and keeping the business running, but developing video games is also a profession that easily lends itself to remote production.
There is zero evidence that they are working on performance issues. In more than four years of this discussion things have degraded, not improved. So even if they are "working on it", they have provided no details of any kind, just their words with negative results. So expecting anyone to believe they are actually working on performance issues at this point doesn't fly.
Eh, they have working on it. It's just that nothing's worked to fix the big pain points.
The no proc set tests were originally about performance, remember? (Didn't make a difference)
The Champion Point rework was also supposed to help streamline some server-side checks.
We've had a number of small fixes to crashes.
So they are doing work on it.
It's just a little like fixing the dents on a car while the engine is failing.
In the discussion thread about those tests they clearly say they are going to report back to the community the results of those tests. Can you point us to where they communicated their results and what they learned?
At some point people have to demand results for their money. "We're working on it" does not constitute results. When "we're working on it" is combined with mocking, it really fails hard.
Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.
Umm thats not how games work, if you have no players then you have no game to have a vision for chief...
spartaxoxo wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »This honestly has me really fired up, I hope everyone shares this video in their pvp guilds discord channels so all the pvp base can see what they think about their own players... and maybe rethink all those ESO plus memberships...
It's not the opinion of anyone who works for ZOS, just a wife being a bit too protective of a dev.
They are working on it really hard actually, and the pandemic really screwed them over. They are performing an entire rearchitecture just because of PVP, and they are also upgrading to better servers which got delayed due to Covid.
Rich gets a ton of questions about pvp when he streams. I actually watched his stream a few times and it was a ton of them and most of what he'd have to answer. She clearly got fed up with it and did something she shouldn't have but I don't think it represents what he thinks or zos. Just what is stressing him out at work and someone doing too much about it.
I appreciate how you are trying to present the "other" side of this........
I could appreciate it if they are continuing to work on it, but I would ask anyone who continues to say this - how long does a person wait? I reached my "quit moment" in September, when a new mmo with a pvp focus came out(please refrain from commenting on that mmo, its irrelevant to this discussion). How many prominent pvp players left ESO in September?All other things aside, how long does a person wait? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? If they have been genuinely working on it for years, and they dont want to add new content because they are working on it, how long do I have to wait, without new content, before I decide to leave???? How would the pve crowd behave if they had no new content for years, and on top of that their content didnt work properly? Saintly, with Mother Theresa levels of compassion and empathy, I'm sure......
Also, this is Rich's stream. As many have said it's his personal stream. I dont really watch twitch streams, and I'm not the only one. If I dont watch his stream, does that mean I miss out on critical information? What I'm really getting at is that a roadmap for the future of pvp should be posted ON OFFICIAL FORUMS. The lack of this contributes to the feeling that it's just "being worked on" . Incidentally, that other terrible, evil, horrible, new mmo recently had the devs create an hour and a half long video about their roadmap for the next few months. I thought to myself "wha? A pvp roadmap, that exists?"
Again I appreciate how you are presenting the other side of this, but you cannot expect people to just sit there and wait, and wait. And wait.....
I don't expect anyone to wait. And they can't say it but I bet the devs don't either and simply hope to win you back when it's ready. I expect that they are also frustrated with the ways the pandemic has made this entire process take much longer than they envisioned.
I actually completely understand PvPers frustration with how long it's taking, and also think some of this is self inflicted by the devs because of a lack of roadmap and updates.
You know how I found about that rearchitecture project? I went to his stream to ask about clothing in game and then stuck around a bit, although I did ask at a more appropriate time as he was on stream and answering other game questions. That's great for me but how many others realistically saw that?
So I don't think the question was appropriately timed, but I understand why the pvper got frustrated enough to pester his wife during her streaming time. BTW he owns the channel but that particular stream was hers and called Terri Time.
I also understand the frustration of his wife to see her husband getting hounded for answers and people coming into ask even at times it's not appropriate all the time and snapping.
I think both people behaved inappropriately, but also understandably so. We're all humans at the end of the day. You can't expect people to wait years and years and not ask questions in the only place they can seem to get real answers, and you can also understand his wife for getting frustrated on behalf of her husband that he's being pestered even at times when it's not appropriate.
I think he owes an apology and maybe his wife should stop answering pvp questions, and he should maybe tell his chat not to take that question when she's the one amswering. But I don't think it should be viewed as anything more than that. It doesn't mean Rich or ZOS has any malice for PvPers nor does it mean that PvPers are some kind of horrible brigade that deserves that kind of treatment. This is simply a frustrating situation for all parties that could be greatly alleviated by zos upping it's communication in official channels.
You are defending a woman badmouthing the player base that paid for her new house, her pets, her car and only they know what else.
No. You paid for the fruits of her husband's labor, not his house. He earned that with his work. You got something out of the business arrangement too.
Secondly I already said her comment was inappropriate and he should apologize.
Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.
VaranisArano wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »This honestly has me really fired up, I hope everyone shares this video in their pvp guilds discord channels so all the pvp base can see what they think about their own players... and maybe rethink all those ESO plus memberships...
It's not the opinion of anyone who works for ZOS, just a wife being a bit too protective of a dev.
They are working on it really hard actually, and the pandemic really screwed them over. They are performing an entire rearchitecture just because of PVP, and they are also upgrading to better servers which got delayed due to Covid.
Rich gets a ton of questions about pvp when he streams. I actually watched his stream a few times and it was a ton of them and most of what he'd have to answer. She clearly got fed up with it and did something she shouldn't have but I don't think it represents what he thinks or zos. Just what is stressing him out at work and someone doing too much about it.
We know it is also Rich's opinion because he did nothing to correct the record. This is not a one off comment. It's a consistent theme on their stream.
We were two years into this conversation prior to COVID. Sure, there have been issues related to COVID and keeping the business running, but developing video games is also a profession that easily lends itself to remote production.
There is zero evidence that they are working on performance issues. In more than four years of this discussion things have degraded, not improved. So even if they are "working on it", they have provided no details of any kind, just their words with negative results. So expecting anyone to believe they are actually working on performance issues at this point doesn't fly.
Eh, they have working on it. It's just that nothing's worked to fix the big pain points.
The no proc set tests were originally about performance, remember? (Didn't make a difference)
The Champion Point rework was also supposed to help streamline some server-side checks.
We've had a number of small fixes to crashes.
So they are doing work on it.
It's just a little like fixing the dents on a car while the engine is failing.
In the discussion thread about those tests they clearly say they are going to report back to the community the results of those tests. Can you point us to where they communicated their results and what they learned?
At some point people have to demand results for their money. "We're working on it" does not constitute results. When "we're working on it" is combined with mocking, it really fails hard.
You mean the No Proc tests?
From Gina, the results:
"Thanks to everyone for participating in this latest Cyrodiil test where we disabled all proc sets. Similar to what many of you have noted in your feedback, we found this test did not impact performance in a measurable amount; if anything, there was a very slight degradation of performance at times, likely due to a higher population of players in Cyrodiil.
We’ve heard from a lot of you that despite performance largely being the same, disabling proc sets has breathed new life into PvP gameplay and has made fights more enjoyable and fun. To that end, we’ll be leaving proc sets disabled until Update 31 launches in Q3. At that point, we will have implemented some new code so we can have more flexibility to campaign rulesets as it applies to proc sets. We’ll work on applying all this to consoles as well, and we’ll let you know when we have a date for this starting.
Now that we’ve had time to digest a lot of data and information, we have a better idea of next steps and the work needed to produce noticeable improvements to performance in Cyrodiil. This work is complex and will take a fair amount of time and effort. We are committed to improving the PvP experience, though, and we have already begun scheduling out this work. Please note that none of the scheduled work will implement any of the changes we made on PC during past tests, and at this time we don’t plan to run any additional tests.
When Update 29 launches on Monday for PC, we’ll be turning off double AP but proc sets will remain disabled as mentioned above. We appreciate the time everyone spent in Cyrodiil during these tests and all the feedback that’s been submitted."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7149943#Comment_7149943
Now, I don't think we've heard much more about scheduling out the next steps, as she mentioned. Part of that might be pandemic disruptions. Part of that might be, as Gina noted on her Twitter, that updates like "we're still working on it" are unsatisfying.
Or, there might be no progress at all. Who knows? We've certainly see no major improvements.
EdmondDontes wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »EdmondDontes wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »This honestly has me really fired up, I hope everyone shares this video in their pvp guilds discord channels so all the pvp base can see what they think about their own players... and maybe rethink all those ESO plus memberships...
It's not the opinion of anyone who works for ZOS, just a wife being a bit too protective of a dev.
They are working on it really hard actually, and the pandemic really screwed them over. They are performing an entire rearchitecture just because of PVP, and they are also upgrading to better servers which got delayed due to Covid.
Rich gets a ton of questions about pvp when he streams. I actually watched his stream a few times and it was a ton of them and most of what he'd have to answer. She clearly got fed up with it and did something she shouldn't have but I don't think it represents what he thinks or zos. Just what is stressing him out at work and someone doing too much about it.
I appreciate how you are trying to present the "other" side of this........
I could appreciate it if they are continuing to work on it, but I would ask anyone who continues to say this - how long does a person wait? I reached my "quit moment" in September, when a new mmo with a pvp focus came out(please refrain from commenting on that mmo, its irrelevant to this discussion). How many prominent pvp players left ESO in September?All other things aside, how long does a person wait? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? If they have been genuinely working on it for years, and they dont want to add new content because they are working on it, how long do I have to wait, without new content, before I decide to leave???? How would the pve crowd behave if they had no new content for years, and on top of that their content didnt work properly? Saintly, with Mother Theresa levels of compassion and empathy, I'm sure......
Also, this is Rich's stream. As many have said it's his personal stream. I dont really watch twitch streams, and I'm not the only one. If I dont watch his stream, does that mean I miss out on critical information? What I'm really getting at is that a roadmap for the future of pvp should be posted ON OFFICIAL FORUMS. The lack of this contributes to the feeling that it's just "being worked on" . Incidentally, that other terrible, evil, horrible, new mmo recently had the devs create an hour and a half long video about their roadmap for the next few months. I thought to myself "wha? A pvp roadmap, that exists?"
Again I appreciate how you are presenting the other side of this, but you cannot expect people to just sit there and wait, and wait. And wait.....
I don't expect anyone to wait. And they can't say it but I bet the devs don't either and simply hope to win you back when it's ready. I expect that they are also frustrated with the ways the pandemic has made this entire process take much longer than they envisioned.
I actually completely understand PvPers frustration with how long it's taking, and also think some of this is self inflicted by the devs because of a lack of roadmap and updates.
You know how I found about that rearchitecture project? I went to his stream to ask about clothing in game and then stuck around a bit, although I did ask at a more appropriate time as he was on stream and answering other game questions. That's great for me but how many others realistically saw that?
So I don't think the question was appropriately timed, but I understand why the pvper got frustrated enough to pester his wife during her streaming time. BTW he owns the channel but that particular stream was hers and called Terri Time.
I also understand the frustration of his wife to see her husband getting hounded for answers and people coming into ask even at times it's not appropriate all the time and snapping.
I think both people behaved inappropriately, but also understandably so. We're all humans at the end of the day. You can't expect people to wait years and years and not ask questions in the only place they can seem to get real answers, and you can also understand his wife for getting frustrated on behalf of her husband that he's being pestered even at times when it's not appropriate.
I think he owes an apology and maybe his wife should stop answering pvp questions, and he should maybe tell his chat not to take that question when she's the one amswering. But I don't think it should be viewed as anything more than that. It doesn't mean Rich or ZOS has any malice for PvPers nor does it mean that PvPers are some kind of horrible brigade that deserves that kind of treatment. This is simply a frustrating situation for all parties that could be greatly alleviated by zos upping it's communication in official channels.
You are defending a woman badmouthing the player base that paid for her new house, her pets, her car and only they know what else.
No. You paid for the fruits of her husband's labor, not his house. He earned that with his work. You got something out of the business arrangement too.
Secondly I already said her comment was inappropriate and he should apologize.
Most people don't pay to be mocked and lied to.
edward_frigidhands wrote: »Since I personally have no sympathy for the players, I can only applaud with approval. Developers should do what they think appropriate for the game. Players should either accept it or go away. Game as a vision of developers is more important than any player wishes or expectations.
Your comment is misplaced here.
Players are questioning quality rather than design choices.
Go look up some games where the players left.
spartaxoxo wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »Kryptonite_Kent wrote: »This honestly has me really fired up, I hope everyone shares this video in their pvp guilds discord channels so all the pvp base can see what they think about their own players... and maybe rethink all those ESO plus memberships...
It's not the opinion of anyone who works for ZOS, just a wife being a bit too protective of a dev.
They are working on it really hard actually, and the pandemic really screwed them over. They are performing an entire rearchitecture just because of PVP, and they are also upgrading to better servers which got delayed due to Covid.
Rich gets a ton of questions about pvp when he streams. I actually watched his stream a few times and it was a ton of them and most of what he'd have to answer. She clearly got fed up with it and did something she shouldn't have but I don't think it represents what he thinks or zos. Just what is stressing him out at work and someone doing too much about it.
I appreciate how you are trying to present the "other" side of this........
I could appreciate it if they are continuing to work on it, but I would ask anyone who continues to say this - how long does a person wait? I reached my "quit moment" in September, when a new mmo with a pvp focus came out(please refrain from commenting on that mmo, its irrelevant to this discussion). How many prominent pvp players left ESO in September?All other things aside, how long does a person wait? 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? If they have been genuinely working on it for years, and they dont want to add new content because they are working on it, how long do I have to wait, without new content, before I decide to leave???? How would the pve crowd behave if they had no new content for years, and on top of that their content didnt work properly? Saintly, with Mother Theresa levels of compassion and empathy, I'm sure......
Also, this is Rich's stream. As many have said it's his personal stream. I dont really watch twitch streams, and I'm not the only one. If I dont watch his stream, does that mean I miss out on critical information? What I'm really getting at is that a roadmap for the future of pvp should be posted ON OFFICIAL FORUMS. The lack of this contributes to the feeling that it's just "being worked on" . Incidentally, that other terrible, evil, horrible, new mmo recently had the devs create an hour and a half long video about their roadmap for the next few months. I thought to myself "wha? A pvp roadmap, that exists?"
Again I appreciate how you are presenting the other side of this, but you cannot expect people to just sit there and wait, and wait. And wait.....
I actually completely understand PvPers frustration with how long it's taking, and also think some of this is self inflicted by the devs because of a lack of roadmap and updates.
spartaxoxo wrote: »
It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.
VaranisArano wrote: »Suggestion for the Communications Team: If you want to take the heat off of Rich and his Stream as one of the few ways to actually have a real back-and-forth conversation with one of the Devs, have you considered providing more official versions of the type of information he's sharing on stream? Even regular Q&As or Ask Me Anythings might help.
EU PC 2000+ CP professional mudballer and pie thrower"Sheggorath, you are the Skooma Cat, for what is crazier than a cat on skooma?" - Fadomai
etchedpixels wrote: »spartaxoxo wrote: »
It was NOT an official stream in any capacity. Not only is entirely his personal stream with a lot of content about his personal life, the proceeeds go to animal rescue unaffiliated with ZOS. It was her personal hour to talk and she was mostly there to talk about that, accessibility in gaming, and her personal life NOT the game. The question was asked at an inappropriate time and she got annoyed and gave a totally inappropriate answer.
And as the saying goes - those without sin should cast the first stone.
I doubt any one of the people castigating him for a single carefully chosen clip of a single misjudged response haven't put their foot in it at some time.
If you really want Zenimax to communicate more this isn't the way to go about it. It's exactly why many companies produce nothing but faceless PR posts that basically say "no comment. no comment, here's something you didn't ask about we want to push" and have no developer streams, personal insights or anything else except specially staged obviously scripted "interviews".