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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.

    Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.

    How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them, stop feeling so entitled.

    The fact of the matter is the lore doesn't match up, that's not entitlement that's expecting quality from the game devs. As it stands now that is a blatant lore fail, and it makes zero sense. When they even said in their own words "We want to preserve and maintain established lore within the game." You are just trying to find any excuse to defend them or prove yourself right. The only thing you have proven is you are here to troll and argue even when you are dead wrong.

    No you’re trying to prove you’re right. There’s no right or wrong to the truth my guy. Did the devs already change the lore , yes or no ? Don’t debate with someone if you’re going to disagree with everything just because.

    Ps. Entitlement as in to others opinions because they don’t align with yours.

    Edited by CatchMeTrolling on June 19, 2019 9:30PM
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    Let's not get into any arguments, please. They've already demonstrated that threads on Bosmer stealth are unwelcome and subject to being closed. I'd hate to see us completely silenced.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.

    Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.

    How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them, stop feeling so entitled.

    The fact of the matter is the lore doesn't match up, that's not entitlement that's expecting quality from the game devs. As it stands now that is a blatant lore fail, and it makes zero sense. When they even said in their own words "We want to preserve and maintain established lore within the game." You are just trying to find any excuse to defend them or prove yourself right. The only thing you have proven is you are here to troll and argue even when you are dead wrong.

    No you’re trying to prove you’re right. There’s no right or wrong to the truth my guy. Did the devs already change the lore , yes or no ? Don’t debate with someone if you’re going to disagree with everything just because.

    Are you serious? I have posted proof that they messed up countless times. You are just choosing to ignore it because you want to think ZoS is right in everything they do. Saying a race is better at sneaking than another or saying a race has a higher resistance than all the other races while not being true. That is bad design no matter how you look at it. Lore is important in a game like this, otherwise it's not a TES game it's just a game with the TES name.

    Here you go not comprehending. That was my entire point to the question. That zos and Bethesda constantly changes the lore. You’re literally arguing the same thing I ALREADY SAID. This is why I said don’t debate someone if you’re just going to disagree just because.

  • Urvoth
    Urvoth
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    How is this thread still going? 83 pages and 4 months later...
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.

    Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.

    How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them, stop feeling so entitled.

    The fact of the matter is the lore doesn't match up, that's not entitlement that's expecting quality from the game devs. As it stands now that is a blatant lore fail, and it makes zero sense. When they even said in their own words "We want to preserve and maintain established lore within the game." You are just trying to find any excuse to defend them or prove yourself right. The only thing you have proven is you are here to troll and argue even when you are dead wrong.

    No you’re trying to prove you’re right. There’s no right or wrong to the truth my guy. Did the devs already change the lore , yes or no ? Don’t debate with someone if you’re going to disagree with everything just because.

    Are you serious? I have posted proof that they messed up countless times. You are just choosing to ignore it because you want to think ZoS is right in everything they do. Saying a race is better at sneaking than another or saying a race has a higher resistance than all the other races while not being true. That is bad design no matter how you look at it. Lore is important in a game like this, otherwise it's not a TES game it's just a game with the TES name.

    Here you go not comprehending. That was my entire point to the question. That zos and Bethesda constantly changes the lore. You’re literally arguing the same thing I ALREADY SAID. This is why I said don’t debate someone if you’re just going to disagree just because.

    They changed the passives between games. Like I said this isn't Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim this is ESO. In ESO they clearly state in the lore that Bosmer are very stealthy and Argonians are resistant to disease AND poison. If it's in the game as part of the lore. Changing the passives so it doesn't match the lore is bad. Why you can't comprehend that is the bigger question. As your name suggests you are indeed just a troll and here to argue and try to get the thread closed. So I'm going to ignore you as you have no real purpose in this thread we arleady proved you wrong in so many posts.

    You can’t comprehend that I already also said the devs will do what they want with the lore. Doesn’t matter if it’s part of the lore, there’s multiple things in the lore that could be race passives or abilities and guess what they’re not in the game? And no you didn’t prove me wrong, you just agree with each other because you share the same opinion. There’s nothing to even prove wrong. The only thing I was wrong about is the detect passive for medium. The rest there’s no right or wrong but I don’t expect someone as entitled as you to get that.

    Edited by CatchMeTrolling on June 19, 2019 9:46PM
  • Seraphayel
    Seraphayel
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    Urvoth wrote: »
    How is this thread still going? 83 pages and 4 months later...

    The same handful of people winding themselves up over and over again, with the same arguments for months now.

    The saddest thing is ZOS moved on and doesn’t care the slightest, that’s why this is so pointless. They’re not even acknowledging it.
    Edited by Seraphayel on June 19, 2019 9:52PM
    Xbox Series X (EU)
    - Daggerfall Covenant -
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    That had nothing to do with comprehending but rather testing it, nice try.

    What? Lol, apparently we collectively have reading comprehension yet we know exactly what the passives mean.
    Yeah, the problem is always with other people. 🙄
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.

    Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.

    How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them, stop feeling so entitled.

    The fact of the matter is the lore doesn't match up, that's not entitlement that's expecting quality from the game devs. As it stands now that is a blatant lore fail, and it makes zero sense. When they even said in their own words "We want to preserve and maintain established lore within the game." You are just trying to find any excuse to defend them or prove yourself right. The only thing you have proven is you are here to troll and argue even when you are dead wrong.

    Exactly. The strength of the Elder Scrolls IP is that it has a (mostly) consistent lore that travels from game to game. A broad conflict with the lore (like the passive changes to wood elves and argonians) stands out like a sore thumb.

    Elder scrolls is a long form story. The races are the major players and the passives are their personalities.

    The lore has to stay consistent or the whole narrative feels shallow.
  • Koronach
    Koronach
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    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.

    Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.

    How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them, stop feeling so entitled.

    The fact of the matter is the lore doesn't match up, that's not entitlement that's expecting quality from the game devs. As it stands now that is a blatant lore fail, and it makes zero sense. When they even said in their own words "We want to preserve and maintain established lore within the game." You are just trying to find any excuse to defend them or prove yourself right. The only thing you have proven is you are here to troll and argue even when you are dead wrong.

    No you’re trying to prove you’re right. There’s no right or wrong to the truth my guy. Did the devs already change the lore , yes or no ? Don’t debate with someone if you’re going to disagree with everything just because.

    Are you serious? I have posted proof that they messed up countless times. You are just choosing to ignore it because you want to think ZoS is right in everything they do. Saying a race is better at sneaking than another or saying a race has a higher resistance than all the other races while not being true. That is bad design no matter how you look at it. Lore is important in a game like this, otherwise it's not a TES game it's just a game with the TES name.

    Here you go not comprehending. That was my entire point to the question. That zos and Bethesda constantly changes the lore. You’re literally arguing the same thing I ALREADY SAID. This is why I said don’t debate someone if you’re just going to disagree just because.

    They changed the passives between games. Like I said this isn't Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim this is ESO. In ESO they clearly state in the lore that Bosmer are very stealthy and Argonians are resistant to disease AND poison. If it's in the game as part of the lore. Changing the passives so it doesn't match the lore is bad. Why you can't comprehend that is the bigger question. As your name suggests you are indeed just a troll and here to argue and try to get the thread closed. So I'm going to ignore you as you have no real purpose in this thread we arleady proved you wrong in so many posts.

    You can’t comprehend that I already also said the devs will do what they want with the lore. Doesn’t matter if it’s part of the lore, there’s multiple things in the lore that could be race passives or abilities and guess what they’re not in the game? And no you didn’t prove me wrong, you just agree with each other because you share the same opinion. There’s nothing to even prove wrong. The only thing I was wrong about is the detect passive for medium. The rest there’s no right or wrong but I don’t expect someone as entitled as you to get that.

    last post at least to an ignorant troll, it's not entitlement to want the racial passives to match the games lore. That's called consistency, like I said you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.

    Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.

    How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them, stop feeling so entitled.

    The fact of the matter is the lore doesn't match up, that's not entitlement that's expecting quality from the game devs. As it stands now that is a blatant lore fail, and it makes zero sense. When they even said in their own words "We want to preserve and maintain established lore within the game." You are just trying to find any excuse to defend them or prove yourself right. The only thing you have proven is you are here to troll and argue even when you are dead wrong.

    No you’re trying to prove you’re right. There’s no right or wrong to the truth my guy. Did the devs already change the lore , yes or no ? Don’t debate with someone if you’re going to disagree with everything just because.

    Are you serious? I have posted proof that they messed up countless times. You are just choosing to ignore it because you want to think ZoS is right in everything they do. Saying a race is better at sneaking than another or saying a race has a higher resistance than all the other races while not being true. That is bad design no matter how you look at it. Lore is important in a game like this, otherwise it's not a TES game it's just a game with the TES name.

    Here you go not comprehending. That was my entire point to the question. That zos and Bethesda constantly changes the lore. You’re literally arguing the same thing I ALREADY SAID. This is why I said don’t debate someone if you’re just going to disagree just because.

    They changed the passives between games. Like I said this isn't Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim this is ESO. In ESO they clearly state in the lore that Bosmer are very stealthy and Argonians are resistant to disease AND poison. If it's in the game as part of the lore. Changing the passives so it doesn't match the lore is bad. Why you can't comprehend that is the bigger question. As your name suggests you are indeed just a troll and here to argue and try to get the thread closed. So I'm going to ignore you as you have no real purpose in this thread we arleady proved you wrong in so many posts.

    You can’t comprehend that I already also said the devs will do what they want with the lore. Doesn’t matter if it’s part of the lore, there’s multiple things in the lore that could be race passives or abilities and guess what they’re not in the game? And no you didn’t prove me wrong, you just agree with each other because you share the same opinion. There’s nothing to even prove wrong. The only thing I was wrong about is the detect passive for medium. The rest there’s no right or wrong but I don’t expect someone as entitled as you to get that.

    last post at least to an ignorant troll, it's not entitlement to want the racial passives to match the games lore. That's called consistency, like I said you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

    You’re clearly slow, I meant entitlement to my opinion. I even clarified that and you still don’t get it.

    The irony.
  • CatchMeTrolling
    CatchMeTrolling
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    BlueRaven wrote: »

    That had nothing to do with comprehending but rather testing it, nice try.

    What? Lol, apparently we collectively have reading comprehension yet we know exactly what the passives mean.
    Yeah, the problem is always with other people. 🙄
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.

    Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.

    How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them, stop feeling so entitled.

    The fact of the matter is the lore doesn't match up, that's not entitlement that's expecting quality from the game devs. As it stands now that is a blatant lore fail, and it makes zero sense. When they even said in their own words "We want to preserve and maintain established lore within the game." You are just trying to find any excuse to defend them or prove yourself right. The only thing you have proven is you are here to troll and argue even when you are dead wrong.

    Exactly. The strength of the Elder Scrolls IP is that it has a (mostly) consistent lore that travels from game to game. A broad conflict with the lore (like the passive changes to wood elves and argonians) stands out like a sore thumb.

    Elder scrolls is a long form story. The races are the major players and the passives are their personalities.

    The lore has to stay consistent or the whole narrative feels shallow.


    That’s called believing word of mouth without checking yourself. It’s like saying it’s cloudy outside and the other person believes you without actually looking outside. Zos plainly wrote detect. So anyone is going to think they meant detect.

    “Also reduces the size of your detection area by 5%” - but I’m sure you all knowing geniuses some how deciphered that automatically.
    Edited by CatchMeTrolling on June 19, 2019 10:02PM
  • Koronach
    Koronach
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    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    Koronach wrote: »
    I would answer that but I already did in this thread. But it’s clear a lot of you just skip over things or just agree with people just because, especially obvious when people are agreeing with the person who made the bosmer pvp comment when bosmer has been the least played and suggested stamina pvp class for years.

    Your answer was just ZoS defensive white knighting. Also they haven't made up any lore to explain how Argonians magically stopped being resistant to poison while still supporting that they are in Elsweyr. Your answer is not a good excuse and just supports the devs just did a bad job and won't admit to it. Like I said you can't defend it. Also as this persons name implies I think they are just trolling trying to get everyone worked up to get the thread closed.

    How is it white knighting for telling the truth ? You guys really expect everyone to agree with your opinion, that’s why I said zos should ignore you. What’s white knighting about saying the lore constantly changes when that’s what actually happens with zos and Bethesda? You don’t like it then stop playing their games but don’t sit here and act like it’s new . Elder scrolls online is filled with lore breaking things and guess what, the devs will justify it whether you or I like it or not. That’s not knighting that’s the simple truth. I never agreed or disagreed with them and have plenty of posts calling them, stop feeling so entitled.

    The fact of the matter is the lore doesn't match up, that's not entitlement that's expecting quality from the game devs. As it stands now that is a blatant lore fail, and it makes zero sense. When they even said in their own words "We want to preserve and maintain established lore within the game." You are just trying to find any excuse to defend them or prove yourself right. The only thing you have proven is you are here to troll and argue even when you are dead wrong.

    No you’re trying to prove you’re right. There’s no right or wrong to the truth my guy. Did the devs already change the lore , yes or no ? Don’t debate with someone if you’re going to disagree with everything just because.

    Are you serious? I have posted proof that they messed up countless times. You are just choosing to ignore it because you want to think ZoS is right in everything they do. Saying a race is better at sneaking than another or saying a race has a higher resistance than all the other races while not being true. That is bad design no matter how you look at it. Lore is important in a game like this, otherwise it's not a TES game it's just a game with the TES name.

    Here you go not comprehending. That was my entire point to the question. That zos and Bethesda constantly changes the lore. You’re literally arguing the same thing I ALREADY SAID. This is why I said don’t debate someone if you’re just going to disagree just because.

    They changed the passives between games. Like I said this isn't Arena, Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion, or Skyrim this is ESO. In ESO they clearly state in the lore that Bosmer are very stealthy and Argonians are resistant to disease AND poison. If it's in the game as part of the lore. Changing the passives so it doesn't match the lore is bad. Why you can't comprehend that is the bigger question. As your name suggests you are indeed just a troll and here to argue and try to get the thread closed. So I'm going to ignore you as you have no real purpose in this thread we arleady proved you wrong in so many posts.

    You can’t comprehend that I already also said the devs will do what they want with the lore. Doesn’t matter if it’s part of the lore, there’s multiple things in the lore that could be race passives or abilities and guess what they’re not in the game? And no you didn’t prove me wrong, you just agree with each other because you share the same opinion. There’s nothing to even prove wrong. The only thing I was wrong about is the detect passive for medium. The rest there’s no right or wrong but I don’t expect someone as entitled as you to get that.

    last post at least to an ignorant troll, it's not entitlement to want the racial passives to match the games lore. That's called consistency, like I said you just want to argue for the sake of arguing.

    You’re clearly slow, I meant entitlement to my opinion. I even clarified that and you still don’t get it.

    The irony.

    (Was last post till some troll insulted my intelligence) Slow enough to make the Dean's list. Also I know your memory must be bad but you literally called me and everyone else entitled at some point. Yep that's clarified that you meant entitlement to your opinion alright.
    Edited by Koronach on June 19, 2019 10:21PM
  • Sylvermynx
    Sylvermynx
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    It was nice playing Skyrim last night with Wood Elf proper passives. I forgot how pleasing bow combat is with that nice kill noise on a hit.
    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ogou wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    We can’t command pets, orcs arent in Cyrodiil raging, High elf’s aren’t weak to magic, Bretons don’t absorb magic, argonians stealth/assassin history is irrelevant in the game etc.
    Sorcs can and do command pets. Bosmer don't because that was an active ability, not a passive, and there are no active abilities.
    High Elves weren't weak to magic in Skyrim.
    Bretons' absorb magic ability was an active one in Skyrim, and there are no active abilities, and did not exist before that. If you mean their resistance to magic, they have that now.
    Orcs ARE in Cyrodiil raging, especially if you are AD or EP.
    And you haven't noticed but several of us, myself included, have called for Dunmer and Argonians to have a bonus to hiding as well, since they have consistently been 'second tier' thieves behind Bosmer and Khajiit. So we are well aware of that.

    So of the things you mentioned, not one is relevant or equivalent.

    There is not one single sliver of evidence for Bosmer ever having any kind of counter stealth ability while there is significant evidence for Bosmer being stealthy.

    They removed lore for not lore. And that's fact.


    edit to add: I notice that you ignored my question. Demonstrate what thief ability Bosmeri have a bonus to now.

    Thanks, so to sum it up is the lore , passives and abilities can change from game to game?. Glad we figured that out on our own.

    Let’s see:

    Oblivion- High Elf Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
    High Elf Elemental Weakness ability: Weakness to Fire, Frost & Shock 25% on Self, constant

    Skyrim - Resist Poison: Your Redguard blood gives you 50% resistance to poison.

    Oblivion: Resist Poison 75% – Passive
    Resist Disease 75% – Passive

    Oblivion- Orc - Resist Magicka 25%

    Skyrim - Weakness to Cold- Argonians become colder 25% faster in cold environments.

    And yes I ignored it because you’re not getting that passives can change whenever the devs feel like they want to change them. Just look at the examples above. You guys are annoyed by something the series has been doing.



    I see you have not mastered the art of google-fu.

    First let me repost what I wrote to you in the other thread.

    OK Here are the wood elf descriptions from most of the games.

    (Hopefully I got the order correct.)

    Elder Scrolls 1 Arena

    32306341437_ec7542e397_o.png

    Thieves...hmmm.

    Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall

    32306341037_c33471a676_o.png

    Thieves again...

    Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind

    47168547902_6d95121629_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Marksman +15
    Sneak +10
    Light Armor +10
    Alchemy +5
    Acrobatics +5


    Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion

    32306341307_5e668de030_o.png

    Skill Bonuses

    Acrobatics +5
    Alchemy +10
    Alteration +5
    Light Armor +5
    Marksman +10
    Sneak +10


    Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim

    47207195632_c3947870cf_o.jpg

    Skill Bonuses (Base level is 15)

    Archery 25 (+10 effectively)
    Light Armor 20 (+5 effectively)
    Sneak 20 (+5 effectively)
    Lockpicking 20 (+5 effectively)
    Pickpocket 20 (+5 effectively)
    Alchemy 20 (+5 effectively)

    And I should just as well mention;

    Elder Scrolls Online (original description)

    32310148127_2db10abe41_o.png

    Full manuals can be found here;

    https://manuals.bethsoft.com

    Notice the recurring theme of thievery and stealth.

    Now your weird scattershot point is what exactly? That some secondary stats change from game to game? Yes, because each game tried to get the overall theme of the race as best they could with the systems they created for the game. But the themes stayed consistent even if the systems to recreate them changed. Now unlike you who just picked skills at random and pretended to make a point. Let's choose two non-wood elf races and see how their skills progressed from Morrowind through Skyrim.

    Morrowind;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +5 Axe, +10 Block, +10 Heavy Armor, +10 Medium Armor

    High Elf - +10 Alchemy, +5 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +10 Enchant, +5 Illusion

    Oblivion;

    Orc - +10 Armorer, +10 Block, +10 Blunt, +5 Hand-to-hand, +10 Heavy Armor

    High Elf - +5 Alchemy, +10 Alteration, +5 Conjuration, +10 Destruction, +5 Illusion, Mysticism +10

    Skyrim;

    Orc +5 Smithing, +10 Heavy Armor, +5 Block, +5 Two-Handed, +5 One-Handed, +5 Enchanting (I will admit that's an odd one for them to have. But I guess it's meant to reinforce their crafting mastery.)

    High Elf - +10 Illusion, +5 Conjuration, +5 Destruction, + 5 Restoration, +5 Alteration, +5 Enchanting

    Again adherence to a theme. Orcs are brawny warriors who like heavy armor, shields, and weapon/armor crafting. And high elves, masters of magic.

    Suddenly, Orcs don't like using shields and favor melee over tanking. Now High Elves have weird off spec bonuses that come out of nowhere. And Wood Elves are guards instead of thieves (because remember only other players use stealth, not the "creatures" they are supposed to be tracking in Valenwood).

    I don’t think you get the point of —> the devs can do whatever they want with the lore, if you’re going to get mad or annoyed about lore changing then eso and elder scrolls isn’t for you. This isn’t exclusive to this game or dev, Bethesda has done it and done it with Fallout. All they do is change lore and make up something to justify it.

    I never said they aren’t thieves either. I only gave their description. You guys are the ones dismissing my points, I never dismissed a single point, I said you guys are leaving out lore. Sure stealth is a defining trait but so is speed, one got sacrificed for the other.

    Even if we are counting both stealth and speed as defining traits, stealth detect has nothing to do with either of those.

    Stealth detect in regards to what ? Being detected or doing the detection? Because bosmer are known for being scouts too.

    Beyond that, detecting others in stealth is worthless outside of PvP, so that part of the passive is useless for many players. Bosmer can't be scouts if there's nothing for them to scout (stealthed enemies to reveal)

    But that's the whole reason why you have the second part of the passive, isn't it?

    Is it? Armor Pen is a PvP stat. Normal PvE players should be armor pen capped. Having "Bonus" armor pen is not needed in trials unless you have a very bad build.

    The speed/roll combo might be ok in some situations IF you don't already have the passive that gives you a speed boost anyway. But DON"T USE A ROLL TO GET EXTRA ARMOR PEN IN A TRIAL OR DUNGEON. The roll should be used for getting out of danger not as a dps boost as it is a MAJOR stamina drain.

    Here is what Alcast says about PvE Stamina races.

    Stamina Damage Dealer

    Best choice: Orc, Redguard, Dark Elf, Kahjiit

    As a stamina damage dealer Orcs have the best stats, followed up by races like Redguards, Dark Elves and Khajiits. All are viable choices, so you can pick whichever race you like the most.


    https://alcasthq.com/eso-race-guide-elder-scrolls-online/

    Notice Wood Elves are not mentioned because their stats are not meant for PvE.

    In fact in the Tank, Healer, Magicka, and Stamina dps race suggestions for PvE, Wood Elf is not mentioned as a choice for any of them.

    While I agree with the points you are making, I am pretty convinced that Alcast just forgot to add Woodelfs initially and didn't bother to add it since. There are plenty of things he never updated in his builds, which bother me every time I come across them.
    As an example, take this *** joke from his page. "Bosmer racial passives have a strong focus on stealth based gameplay style." I wonder what game he is playing.
    Or another example, he updates a build to recommend Tzogvin's, but then keeps the Psijic skill for Minor Force in his bar and talks about Rearming trap when explaining the rotation.
    Not to bash on him, it's good he updates things at all and makes comprehensive builds that go into so much detail.

    Valid observations. I am not going to argue with any of it. But really I don't know of a better site to get info either.

    I had a really long day, (6 hours of driving through extremely heavy rains) and I had 45+ email notifications waiting for me from this thread alone. I don't really have the energy for this right now. I am going to go play easy mode skyrim with a bosmer that has proper racials, until I just fall asleep completely.

    Blue.... pretty sure you will check in here a few times a day. Turn off that email notification spam. You don't need it. Enjoy that real bosmer gameplay, and then get some sleep. <3

    Thanks! It was nice playing Skyrim last night with the proper Wood Elf passives. I forgot how pleasing bow combat is with that nice kill noise on a hit. I stayed up much too late playing. :D

    I'm sure it was! I got my stealth archer fix while I was waiting for my new internet dish over Memorial Day weekend. Good ol' Skyrim!
  • Seraphayel
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    Don't worry seraph, I won't forget to thank you for padding our stats even more. Thanks!

    You can count on me from time to time to point out to you how pointless this thread is. I always do my best and am happy to help you out!
    Xbox Series X (EU)
    - Daggerfall Covenant -
  • Ratzkifal
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    So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.

    Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
    How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?

    Since ZOS stated that one of their future goals was to open up stealth to everyone, we can also think about how traditionally stealthy races engage differently with that system. My idea would be that they could gain experience faster or retain passives that further add on top of the boni of that system, as they do now.
    Edited by Ratzkifal on June 19, 2019 11:57PM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • BlueRaven
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.

    Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
    How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?

    I feel ledgemain is the wrong "tree" to put it in.

    First, it feels odd changing an already established tree that works for what it is.
    And second I feel stealth can be dynamic enough to warrant its own tree.

    As for leveling it. that's tricky.
    The engine does not support the Skyrim way of being in stealth within a detect range on an enemy to level. So I think the best way to level it is to attack a target from stealth (not necessarily killing it by the way). I think doing this in PvP can award a bit more experience as starting fights in stealth there can be less common. Add on top of this a slight cool down on how often it can happen so people don't spam mud crabs to level it.
  • Jaraal
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.

    Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
    How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?

    Since ZOS stated that one of their future goals was to open up stealth to everyone, we can also think about how traditionally stealthy races engage differently with that system. My idea would be that they could gain experience faster or retain passives that further add on top of the boni of that system, as they do now.

    If it's open to everyone, then Imperials will still be stealthier than Bosmer.


    I started this game selecting a Bosmer, because I have always played the stealthy/rogue/archer/assassin character in fantasy games, including TES games. I, for one, would not be interested in a system where I have to wear a virtual name tag on my chest that says, "Hi, I'm a Bosmer! And I chose to be stealthy!" I'd rather people just look at me and know that I'm stealthy because everybody knows I'm supposed to be stealthy.
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Ratzkifal
    Ratzkifal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.

    Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
    How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?

    Since ZOS stated that one of their future goals was to open up stealth to everyone, we can also think about how traditionally stealthy races engage differently with that system. My idea would be that they could gain experience faster or retain passives that further add on top of the boni of that system, as they do now.

    If it's open to everyone, then Imperials will still be stealthier than Bosmer.


    I started this game selecting a Bosmer, because I have always played the stealthy/rogue/archer/assassin character in fantasy games, including TES games. I, for one, would not be interested in a system where I have to wear a virtual name tag on my chest that says, "Hi, I'm a Bosmer! And I chose to be stealthy!" I'd rather people just look at me and know that I'm stealthy because everybody knows I'm supposed to be stealthy.

    No, it won't. Not if it's designed the right way with stealthy races in mind. So suppose for the discussion that Bosmer get the stealth radius or another bonus to stealth in their racial passives.
    I was just thinking that stealth could get a new system of specialization, possibly moving all boni to radius into that new system, to allow more freedom for racial passives and item sets related to stealth. The radius is simply too good to pass up, so other boni are never even considered, which is sad. If everyone had access to them, given a certain investment, then giving Bosmer 20% reduced sneak cost or 10% increased sneak speed (not exceeding unsneaked speed) could actually be worth while, because you wouldn't have to worry about getting as much radius reduction as possible.

    I feel like @BlueRaven's suggestion has the potential to become like the fighter's guild skill. I feel it is leveled way too easily and pretty much on accident for the purpose that this is trying to serve. It would lead to everyone being stealthy, which is not how it should be. If you want to be stealthy, then you should actively try to get there, like with the Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood skills.
    Having it be passively leveled without actively seeking to level it, similar to the fighter's guild, can only work if the new system has three mutually exclusive paths to choose from. One would be stealth, one would be counter-stealth and the last one would have to be neither and still offer something worthwhile. If it was just stealth and guard, then we'd run the risk of everyone being stealthy in PvE and guard being BiS in PvP for anyone who isn't a ganker. That would be boring imo, so the third option would have to be just as juicy and make for "the common folk" without being mandadory because the highend meta demands it. Unfortunately I can't come up with a third one that is as enticing without being OP, so that's why I believe the skill line / system needs to be handled more like the grindy-but-fun guild type of skills.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • BlueRaven
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Jaraal wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.

    Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
    How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?

    Since ZOS stated that one of their future goals was to open up stealth to everyone, we can also think about how traditionally stealthy races engage differently with that system. My idea would be that they could gain experience faster or retain passives that further add on top of the boni of that system, as they do now.

    If it's open to everyone, then Imperials will still be stealthier than Bosmer.


    I started this game selecting a Bosmer, because I have always played the stealthy/rogue/archer/assassin character in fantasy games, including TES games. I, for one, would not be interested in a system where I have to wear a virtual name tag on my chest that says, "Hi, I'm a Bosmer! And I chose to be stealthy!" I'd rather people just look at me and know that I'm stealthy because everybody knows I'm supposed to be stealthy.

    No, it won't. Not if it's designed the right way with stealthy races in mind. So suppose for the discussion that Bosmer get the stealth radius or another bonus to stealth in their racial passives.
    I was just thinking that stealth could get a new system of specialization, possibly moving all boni to radius into that new system, to allow more freedom for racial passives and item sets related to stealth. The radius is simply too good to pass up, so other boni are never even considered, which is sad. If everyone had access to them, given a certain investment, then giving Bosmer 20% reduced sneak cost or 10% increased sneak speed (not exceeding unsneaked speed) could actually be worth while, because you wouldn't have to worry about getting as much radius reduction as possible.

    I feel like @BlueRaven's suggestion has the potential to become like the fighter's guild skill. I feel it is leveled way too easily and pretty much on accident for the purpose that this is trying to serve. It would lead to everyone being stealthy, which is not how it should be. If you want to be stealthy, then you should actively try to get there, like with the Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood skills.
    Having it be passively leveled without actively seeking to level it, similar to the fighter's guild, can only work if the new system has three mutually exclusive paths to choose from. One would be stealth, one would be counter-stealth and the last one would have to be neither and still offer something worthwhile. If it was just stealth and guard, then we'd run the risk of everyone being stealthy in PvE and guard being BiS in PvP for anyone who isn't a ganker. That would be boring imo, so the third option would have to be just as juicy and make for "the common folk" without being mandadory because the highend meta demands it. Unfortunately I can't come up with a third one that is as enticing without being OP, so that's why I believe the skill line / system needs to be handled more like the grindy-but-fun guild type of skills.

    Well there is a third and fourth thing that can be added to the tree,. speed while stealthed and a stealth cost reduction. And things like time to get into stealth can be decreased I guess.

    A damage mitigation passive could be added, "If stealth is broken, reduce incoming damage by x% for (insert time)".

    Also a way around the "Imperials will always be better" problem is that the tree would not stack with the racial passives. (Which feels inelegant, but would solve a lot of problems.)

    Leveling through "scouting" type quests and dallies would be fun. And possibly instanced areas like the assassins and thieves guild dungeons?

    EDIT: I just realized the "scouting" missions in Cyrodiil would be a perfect template for the type of daily that can be used for this.
    Edited by BlueRaven on June 20, 2019 2:12AM
  • HowTaoBrownCow
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    So, back to Hunter's Eye and stealth and stealth systems.

    Earlier we talked about the "detection area reduction" from the medium armor skills , which is clearly identifiable as being the same thing as stealth given the context. We touched on how Ledgerdemain feels bad to level. In Skyrim, sneak would level up while moving around NPCs and remaining hidden. For the sake of argument, let's assume this is impossible to implement in ESO.
    How else could a potential reworked ledgerdemain be skilled without facing the same issues as the current one?

    Since ZOS stated that one of their future goals was to open up stealth to everyone, we can also think about how traditionally stealthy races engage differently with that system. My idea would be that they could gain experience faster or retain passives that further add on top of the boni of that system, as they do now.

    I don't have a problem with Legerdemain as it is, because it's about sleight-of-hand -- lockpicking and pocket picking -- and you level it by doing those things. Of course, they've blurred it a bit into a kind of catch-all Thievery skill, so you also level it by selling to a fence, and some of the passives relate to that (and one to stealth's stamina costs). I suppose you could bundle those *and* stealth into a broader Subterfuge skill -- and I call it Subterfuge rather than Thievery (a) to avoid confusion with the Thieves Guild tree and (b) because sneaking up to backstab a troll in the woods isn't thieving.

    The thing is, I was looking back at those Wood Elf descriptions across the different Elder Scrolls games, and two things stood out to me. The first was that the broad race descriptions were about Bosmer being good at Thievery generally (and not specifically stealth), and the second was that they got a boost to their starting Sneak skill line.

    The thing is, that initial boost is what a bog-basic Bosmer gets. Your average, run-of-the-mill Bosmer has better Sneak than the average Nord or Altmer -- but those other races can focus on Sneak and level their Sneak skill to become as good or better. And a Bosmer who specializes in Sneak will start out better, but at the end of a bunch of adventurers as they become a Master Thief, they're not especially better at Sneak than a Nord Master Thief. They just maybe got there a little faster. This was actually one of the cool things about those games -- you could be anyone and do anything, but the lore was embodied in the starting boost you got as you got the ball rolling.

    With that in mind, maybe the solution is to give Bosmer and Khajiit a boost to Legerdemain experience gain, similar to the boost that the different races get with weapon skill lines. Similar to the Sneak skill in previous games and the weapon skill xp boosts in ESO, that boost wouldn't matter anymore once a player has maxed a skill, but it would start them out higher and that would continue to support the lore that Bosmer and Khajiit are better at these things -- while still meeting ZOS's stated goal of making the stealth boosts accessible to more players. (And leveling Legerdemain takes work, it's not just a "I ran dolmens for 5 hours and now I've maxed out the skill!")

    (Optionally, you could add also more stealth boosts to the Legerdemain line, like a passive for reducing stealth detection radius similar to what medium armor provides, and/or a passive for increasing stealth speed. I'd like to see those, but they're secondary.)
    Censored
  • Ratzkifal
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    [...]
    The thing is, that initial boost is what a bog-basic Bosmer gets. Your average, run-of-the-mill Bosmer has better Sneak than the average Nord or Altmer -- but those other races can focus on Sneak and level their Sneak skill to become as good or better. And a Bosmer who specializes in Sneak will start out better, but at the end of a bunch of adventurers as they become a Master Thief, they're not especially better at Sneak than a Nord Master Thief. They just maybe got there a little faster. This was actually one of the cool things about those games -- you could be anyone and do anything, but the lore was embodied in the starting boost you got as you got the ball rolling.

    With that in mind, maybe the solution is to give Bosmer and Khajiit a boost to Legerdemain experience gain, similar to the boost that the different races get with weapon skill lines. Similar to the Sneak skill in previous games and the weapon skill xp boosts in ESO, that boost wouldn't matter anymore once a player has maxed a skill, but it would start them out higher and that would continue to support the lore that Bosmer and Khajiit are better at these things -- while still meeting ZOS's stated goal of making the stealth boosts accessible to more players. (And leveling Legerdemain takes work, it's not just a "I ran dolmens for 5 hours and now I've maxed out the skill!")

    (Optionally, you could add also more stealth boosts to the Legerdemain line, like a passive for reducing stealth detection radius similar to what medium armor provides, and/or a passive for increasing stealth speed. I'd like to see those, but they're secondary.)

    We had been talking about that before already in those 83 pages. I was never a fan of "in the end we are all the same", which the headstart-approach boils down to. I just don't think it works for MMOs, because in an MMO you are always being compared to other players. Standing out and being unique is much more important here than it is in the single player games, because no matter what character you make in a single player game, they'll always stand out. So while the decision to go sneaky on a nord should ultimately give the same results as on any other race in single player games, I feel like these choices have to have more impact and meaning in the long run in an MMO.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • HowTaoBrownCow
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    We had been talking about that before already in those 83 pages. I was never a fan of "in the end we are all the same", which the headstart-approach boils down to. I just don't think it works for MMOs, because in an MMO you are always being compared to other players. Standing out and being unique is much more important here than it is in the single player games, because no matter what character you make in a single player game, they'll always stand out. So while the decision to go sneaky on a nord should ultimately give the same results as on any other race in single player games, I feel like these choices have to have more impact and meaning in the long run in an MMO.

    For me, I like the role playing aspect of it. The Breton master thief had to work harder to get where he is than the Bosmer, but his end state is just as emotionally satisfying from a story perspective. Just as some people aren't natural fighters, or dancers, or computer programmers, but they can overcome the deficiency and excel through devotion to the craft. And, in truth, I really don't care what other people are doing unless it's some sort of PvP context and our relative combat power/skill matters. My gameplay is my own personal experience, even in a multiplayer game like ESO, and the experience that others are having doesn't factor much into my awareness except to congratulate them if they're having fun. (With the possible exception of the Master Angler achievement. *That's* impressive, and you give some race a fishing boost, and blood will be spilled!)

    But, bottom line, I think if you don't like the "in the end we are all the same" approach, then you'd need the stealth racial passive and nothing else will really fit the bill. Reworking Legerdemain doesn't buy you anything.

    Censored
  • BlueRaven
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    So in regards to a dedicated stealth tree, I guess there are two game design philosophies at play here.

    One is the Skyrim method that all races can (eventually) do everything equally well.

    And the second is a race with an advantage should always have that advantage.

    ESO seems to be built with the second philosophy in mind. A race with say a bonus to max magicka will always have an advantage of having more then a race that does not get that bonus. But I personally like the first philosophy as it opens up options for players.

    I mean there should be nord healers and spellcasting orcs, but in the current design a player going down this path is just hurting themselves.

    Getting back to the topic at hand, I agree that the road to having stealth through a tree should be a commitment. I think the problem really is that the “rules” for stealth is so simplistic in eso, especially against the depth of how Skyrim did it.

    I wonder how we can bring depth to stealth gameplay in the rather limiting way they did the mechanics in eso. Do we need to rethink how stealth works? Do we need to reimagine and rebuild the “mechanics” of stealth?
This discussion has been closed.