Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

thegreatme

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The first skill in the legerdemain tree is a reduction of the cost to move around in stealth. Legerdemain means sleight of hand (literally, from an old French phrase) but also skill and cunning at being deceptive or surreptitious. It would be a fine place for putting the stealth skill instead of the medium armor tree.

It helps reduce stamina cost while sneaking, but it sadly has nothing to do with actual detection radius, which was always odd to me, but I picked a (formerly) stealthy race + stealthy class + armor with a stealthy passive, so I begrudgingly ignored that fact.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I doubt we'll see a new tree. Frankly, neither the devs nor the players they listen to appear to have the slightest interest in the nuances of stealth and stealthy game play.

Its a shame really because I always found stealth gameplay to be more fun in any game, albeit there are definitely games that did it better than TES ever has. Unfortunately MMO style games never seem to have combat or gameplay in general that strongly supports this playstyle, it more caters to the hard-chargers and zerg-groups that all pile in after a target and nix stealth play in favor of buffs and battering enemies with higher-damage skills.

Even in Cyro, the most I've seen out of stealth is to slink away from larger groups, or camp inside a newly taken enemy base to re-take it as soon as the zerg moves on to the next one. To me it just makes it all rather bland compared to what it could be, but the system really just favors flipping keeps for points over and over. Bleh.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

You could even put those in an actual fighting arena if you taught the AI that it is not allowed to reset if someone goes into those hiding spots

My number 1 pet peeve of NPCs is the health reset as soon as they lose you to stealth. I want a playstyle I can be a sneaky guerilla fighter that pops out, damages an NPC, and disappears again until I'm ready to strike, chipping away at them until they're down. Its a tactic that somewhat works only in PvP, unless the person you're fighting heals, but that requires active effort from the person, so healing is fair game. Random 100% health reset because "I guess they're gone now"? Nope. I call BS on that.

Seems like having a small timer, like 30 seconds or something, before a health reset would be a super easy-to-implement combat design choice for that playstyle, or really any other that doesn't want to be constantly battering an enemy to death or running circles to avoid it like a chicken with its head cut off.

Jaraal

thegreatme wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

The first skill in the legerdemain tree is a reduction of the cost to move around in stealth. Legerdemain means sleight of hand (literally, from an old French phrase) but also skill and cunning at being deceptive or surreptitious. It would be a fine place for putting the stealth skill instead of the medium armor tree.

It helps reduce stamina cost while sneaking, but it sadly has nothing to do with actual detection radius, which was always odd to me, but I picked a (formerly) stealthy race + stealthy class + armor with a stealthy passive, so I begrudgingly ignored that fact.

I have six max level thieves, and not once have I ever put a skill point into that passive. The medium armor passive Improved Sneak "Reduces the cost of Sneak by 7% per piece of Medium Armor equipped. Reduces the size of your detection area while Sneaking by 5% per piece of Medium Armor equipped."

So, you get a built in cost reduction with the radius reduction, and the Legerdemain version is redundant, unless, for some reason, you would rather sneak in light or heavy armor, without the radius reduction.

Ratzkifal

thegreatme wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

You could even put those in an actual fighting arena if you taught the AI that it is not allowed to reset if someone goes into those hiding spots

My number 1 pet peeve of NPCs is the health reset as soon as they lose you to stealth. I want a playstyle I can be a sneaky guerilla fighter that pops out, damages an NPC, and disappears again until I'm ready to strike, chipping away at them until they're down. Its a tactic that somewhat works only in PvP, unless the person you're fighting heals, but that requires active effort from the person, so healing is fair game. Random 100% health reset because "I guess they're gone now"? Nope. I call BS on that.

Seems like having a small timer, like 30 seconds or something, before a health reset would be a super easy-to-implement combat design choice for that playstyle, or really any other that doesn't want to be constantly battering an enemy to death or running circles to avoid it like a chicken with its head cut off.

It's funny if you think about it. Players are suffering from being stuck in combat, but NPCs can decide to not be in combat anymore at will even when they absolutely should be.

Kalle_Demos

HowTaoBrownCow wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

We had been talking about that before already in those 83 pages. I was never a fan of "in the end we are all the same", which the headstart-approach boils down to. I just don't think it works for MMOs, because in an MMO you are always being compared to other players. Standing out and being unique is much more important here than it is in the single player games, because no matter what character you make in a single player game, they'll always stand out. So while the decision to go sneaky on a nord should ultimately give the same results as on any other race in single player games, I feel like these choices have to have more impact and meaning in the long run in an MMO.

For me, I like the role playing aspect of it. The Breton master thief had to work harder to get where he is than the Bosmer, but his end state is just as emotionally satisfying from a story perspective. Just as some people aren't natural fighters, or dancers, or computer programmers, but they can overcome the deficiency and excel through devotion to the craft. And, in truth, I really don't care what other people are doing unless it's some sort of PvP context and our relative combat power/skill matters. My gameplay is my own personal experience, even in a multiplayer game like ESO, and the experience that others are having doesn't factor much into my awareness except to congratulate them if they're having fun. (With the possible exception of the Master Angler achievement. *That's* impressive, and you give some race a fishing boost, and blood will be spilled!)

But, bottom line, I think if you don't like the "in the end we are all the same" approach, then you'd need the stealth racial passive and nothing else will really fit the bill. Reworking Legerdemain doesn't buy you anything.

The role playing aspect is the essence of Elder Scrolls. Sure we have our archetypes and in-world norms and stereotypes like the Altmer Mage and Bosmer thief but, as ZOS likes to preach and not practice: You can play however you want. And in playing the games we meet many characters that do not follow strict structures and learn that things are more complicated beneath the surface everywhere. For example in Skyrim where Magic in general is feared we learn not all Nord leaders are stupid and realize the benefit of having a Magical expert around.

Anyway, in a role playing game I don't think all players should be the same either. We should all have the same 'cap' but bring different things to the table. Diversity. The races and classes should all be different too with benefits and drawbacks. Homogenization makes for a boring game. If I wanted to play a FPS where everyone is a clone I'd go pay for it. I'm all for everyone having access to Stealth but some races ARE better at it than others and that should be reflected in gameplay. The ROLE in role play has to mean something right? What's the point if everyone can do it?

Ogou

Jaraal wrote: »

wishlist14 wrote: »

For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.

Let no one be misled, I love my Khajiits. I only wish my Bosmer main were as effective, as he used to be.

This is my necro Khajiit thief. And more evidence of why I believe Bosmer was nerfed and Khajiit buffed to encourage folks to play the race, and be more invested in purchasing Elsweyr.

Notice that I have a bounty. All active spells and effects are shown in my buff timer, no cloak or invis pots. Working as intended!

I keep seeing people saying that but it never really made sense to me. How does buffing Khajiit increase Elsweyr sales? It's not like people were going to not do the Elsweyr quests because they didn't have a Khajiit.

Jaraal

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

wishlist14 wrote: »

For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.

Let no one be misled, I love my Khajiits. I only wish my Bosmer main were as effective, as he used to be.

This is my necro Khajiit thief. And more evidence of why I believe Bosmer was nerfed and Khajiit buffed to encourage folks to play the race, and be more invested in purchasing Elsweyr.

Notice that I have a bounty. All active spells and effects are shown in my buff timer, no cloak or invis pots. Working as intended!

I keep seeing people saying that but it never really made sense to me. How does buffing Khajiit increase Elsweyr sales? It's not like people were going to not do the Elsweyr quests because they didn't have a Khajiit.

It's called breaking down resistances.

There is a large number of players who will not play beast races. Go back through this thread and you will find a number of folks who said 'I miss my Bosmer stealth, but I'm not race changing him/her to a Khajiit', 'I'd rather quit than convert to beasties', etc. They knew well in advance that many people would say 'Khajiit chapter? No thanks, I'll pass'. So they nerfed wood elves and buffed cats, so that people who like the stealth playstyle would have to go feline. Personally, I like cats, and I made a new Khajiit necro vampire so I could make use of the set stacking for more efficient thievery. Not to mention, it comes in handy for farming Undaunted chests!




But the racial bias is real. Personally, I don't care for Argonians. Never made one, don't ever see myself doing so..... unless they remove stealth from Khajiit and give it to Argonians at some point, instead (which wouldn't surprise me at all, considering their new penchant for making up lore on the fly.) In fact, I would never have purchased Murkmire, had it been for sale, for that reason. I had no desire to go hang out with the lizard folk. So I can certainly understand some folks' resistance to playing Khajiit. But I will most definitely take advantage of these opportunities to become virtually invisible and run around racking up AP machine gun bashing people too slow to get out of the way or come up with counter plays. ZOS knew all about these "unbalanced" things from the PTS feedback, but they pushed them to live, anyway, knowing darn well it would help sell chapter copies.

Sylvermynx

Interesting. I've no Khajiit bias at all - in Daggerfall, the first character I made was Khajiit (and I STILL want that oh so cool "catsuit" that she wore, in this and the past and future games). Arena.... eh, no clue now (probably something warrior-ish or perhaps mage-ish).

Argonians.... nopenopenope. Never had them in the past, had one after Murkmire (on a "dare" sort of thing from a friend). Deleted her not long after. Also don't do Orcs - had one about the same time as the Argonian, deleted the Orc too. And not really fond of Nords in this game - it's the looks, not the racials... So I have only one on each account. May not ever make any others. Might try a male, see if it's less - ugly....

And of course, I buy chapters as a matter of course. If I'm having fun in a game, I buy whatever. So far, I'm having a lot of fun here, so *shrug*

Sue me I guess?

MartiniDaniels

Honestly saying I don't see how khajiits were buffed in any way, they were simply made appealing to newbies since they have minor bonuses to everything, but they are not even close to be BiS for any role.
I had khajiit, but I race changed her to nord simply because removal of bonus crit chance removed key idea and "soul" of that character.

Ratzkifal

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

wishlist14 wrote: »

For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.

Let no one be misled, I love my Khajiits. I only wish my Bosmer main were as effective, as he used to be.

This is my necro Khajiit thief. And more evidence of why I believe Bosmer was nerfed and Khajiit buffed to encourage folks to play the race, and be more invested in purchasing Elsweyr.

Notice that I have a bounty. All active spells and effects are shown in my buff timer, no cloak or invis pots. Working as intended!

I keep seeing people saying that but it never really made sense to me. How does buffing Khajiit increase Elsweyr sales? It's not like people were going to not do the Elsweyr quests because they didn't have a Khajiit.

Well, it does not have to make sense to you or anyone as long as the marketing team demands it, right?
Maybe they calculated that 1% of players gets invested in the lore after they made the character so in order to get that 1% of the meta chasers that wouldn't otherwise have bought Elsweyr, they buffed them...

Honestly, I don't really think that's the actual reason. It makes more sense that the people responsible are on the "detection is also a kind of stealth" train or thought it wasn't that important because people who wanted to do thievery before picked Khajiit anyway due to the pickpocketing or something.

Whatever the reasoning may be, we will never know unless ZOS starts communicating and until then it's all just speculation that doesn't get us anywhere.

Ogou

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

wishlist14 wrote: »

For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.

Let no one be misled, I love my Khajiits. I only wish my Bosmer main were as effective, as he used to be.

This is my necro Khajiit thief. And more evidence of why I believe Bosmer was nerfed and Khajiit buffed to encourage folks to play the race, and be more invested in purchasing Elsweyr.

Notice that I have a bounty. All active spells and effects are shown in my buff timer, no cloak or invis pots. Working as intended!

I keep seeing people saying that but it never really made sense to me. How does buffing Khajiit increase Elsweyr sales? It's not like people were going to not do the Elsweyr quests because they didn't have a Khajiit.

It's called breaking down resistances.

There is a large number of players who will not play beast races. Go back through this thread and you will find a number of folks who said 'I miss my Bosmer stealth, but I'm not race changing him/her to a Khajiit', 'I'd rather quit than convert to beasties', etc. They knew well in advance that many people would say 'Khajiit chapter? No thanks, I'll pass'. So they nerfed wood elves and buffed cats, so that people who like the stealth playstyle would have to go feline. Personally, I like cats, and I made a new Khajiit necro vampire so I could make use of the set stacking for more efficient thievery. Not to mention, it comes in handy for farming Undaunted chests!




But the racial bias is real. Personally, I don't care for Argonians. Never made one, don't ever see myself doing so..... unless they remove stealth from Khajiit and give it to Argonians at some point, instead (which wouldn't surprise me at all, considering their new penchant for making up lore on the fly.) In fact, I would never have purchased Murkmire, had it been for sale, for that reason. I had no desire to go hang out with the lizard folk. So I can certainly understand some folks' resistance to playing Khajiit. But I will most definitely take advantage of these opportunities to become virtually invisible and run around racking up AP machine gun bashing people too slow to get out of the way or come up with counter plays. ZOS knew all about these "unbalanced" things from the PTS feedback, but they pushed them to live, anyway, knowing darn well it would help sell chapter copies.

That doesn't explain how ZOS would be profiting from buffing Khajiit. Let's take your own example, if ZOS had buffed Argonians so much that you ended up race changing in to one. Would you have bought Murkmire because of that?

Ratzkifal

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

wishlist14 wrote: »

For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.

Let no one be misled, I love my Khajiits. I only wish my Bosmer main were as effective, as he used to be.

This is my necro Khajiit thief. And more evidence of why I believe Bosmer was nerfed and Khajiit buffed to encourage folks to play the race, and be more invested in purchasing Elsweyr.

Notice that I have a bounty. All active spells and effects are shown in my buff timer, no cloak or invis pots. Working as intended!

I keep seeing people saying that but it never really made sense to me. How does buffing Khajiit increase Elsweyr sales? It's not like people were going to not do the Elsweyr quests because they didn't have a Khajiit.

It's called breaking down resistances.

There is a large number of players who will not play beast races. Go back through this thread and you will find a number of folks who said 'I miss my Bosmer stealth, but I'm not race changing him/her to a Khajiit', 'I'd rather quit than convert to beasties', etc. They knew well in advance that many people would say 'Khajiit chapter? No thanks, I'll pass'. So they nerfed wood elves and buffed cats, so that people who like the stealth playstyle would have to go feline. Personally, I like cats, and I made a new Khajiit necro vampire so I could make use of the set stacking for more efficient thievery. Not to mention, it comes in handy for farming Undaunted chests!




But the racial bias is real. Personally, I don't care for Argonians. Never made one, don't ever see myself doing so..... unless they remove stealth from Khajiit and give it to Argonians at some point, instead (which wouldn't surprise me at all, considering their new penchant for making up lore on the fly.) In fact, I would never have purchased Murkmire, had it been for sale, for that reason. I had no desire to go hang out with the lizard folk. So I can certainly understand some folks' resistance to playing Khajiit. But I will most definitely take advantage of these opportunities to become virtually invisible and run around racking up AP machine gun bashing people too slow to get out of the way or come up with counter plays. ZOS knew all about these "unbalanced" things from the PTS feedback, but they pushed them to live, anyway, knowing darn well it would help sell chapter copies.

That doesn't explain how ZOS would be profiting from buffing Khajiit. Let's take your own example, if ZOS had buffed Argonians so much that you ended up race changing in to one. Would you have bought Murkmire because of that?

His argument is that "taking the first step is the hardest and sometimes it needs a push". So ZOS is buffing Khajiit, so people make Khajiits and then discover they like Khajiits and want to learn more about them, giving them the push they needed. I know I wouldn't fall for that one, but maybe others actually are. Still, I doubt that's actually the case as they would have left Khajiit in the OP state of PTS if that was their motivation.

*Puts on tinfoil hat* They are trying to turn us into furries to please their money god!

Sylvermynx

Furries I'm fine with Ratz. Scalies? Nope, ain't hap'nin. I am creeped out by Murkmire, Shadowfen, and Deshaan. Only reason I EVER mess around in Deshaan is for Plague Doctor.

thegreatme

Ogou wrote: »

That doesn't explain how ZOS would be profiting from buffing Khajiit. Let's take your own example, if ZOS had buffed Argonians so much that you ended up race changing in to one. Would you have bought Murkmire because of that?

You probably forget though that a lot of people do things on impulse. I know a few people who will change things on the fly to "adapt" to whatever changes ZoS throws at them.

Nerfed their race? Change it. Nerfed their class? Delete and start over from scratch. Nerfed their startover? Better startover again. Again and again and again.

Personally I'm not one for just throwing the toon I've invested in aside because ZoS changed the playstyle rules to... whatever they changed it to this time, or next time -- because I'm the very opposite of impulsive -- but there ARE other people out there who just change, delete, change again, delete again, etc on a whim and then spend months stressing over getting their levels back up or whatever because they JUST caught up from the last change.

And if they're already impulsive with their long-term time investments, how impulsive do you think they'll be with their monetary investments? I can tell you from seeing it they don't hold onto much for long.

Jaraal

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Honestly saying I don't see how khajiits were buffed in any way, they were simply made appealing to newbies since they have minor bonuses to everything, but they are not even close to be BiS for any role.

Khajiit is now BiS for thievery and sneaking through dungeons, as my screenshots indicate. You used to be able to choose between two races, both with lore backing their stealth, but they cut it to one.

I spend far more time stealing and selling motifs and furnishing plans for profit and to furnish my houses than I do PvPing, dungeoning, doing trials, or any of that. You are trying to determine the value of the race based on standards different than mine and all the other folks who are focused on Justice play. And that's why these racial changes hit us harder than most. Because they basically said, "We don't care about you thieves, or you role players, or (to a certain extent) you PvE people. All we care about is PvP balance, so your viewpoint is invalid." And that's why a lot of us are more passionate about it, versus those who only PvP and think "Wow, this is great! My Bosmer now gets extra pen and 10% speed stacked on top of my bow passive and Senche/ Morihaus/Eternal Hunt sets I was already using! Thanks ZOS, you're the greatest!"

There's no reason we can't have both. Add to or replace the wonky stealth detection with the stealth reduction that was there before (minus the 10% damage bonus we had previously) and everybody is happy.

Jaraal

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

wishlist14 wrote: »

For all my reply is worth I'll put my idea out here. I see khajiit as the stealthy cats since they are light and lithe and sleek and stealthy like a cat moves in the shadows.

Let no one be misled, I love my Khajiits. I only wish my Bosmer main were as effective, as he used to be.

This is my necro Khajiit thief. And more evidence of why I believe Bosmer was nerfed and Khajiit buffed to encourage folks to play the race, and be more invested in purchasing Elsweyr.

Notice that I have a bounty. All active spells and effects are shown in my buff timer, no cloak or invis pots. Working as intended!

I keep seeing people saying that but it never really made sense to me. How does buffing Khajiit increase Elsweyr sales? It's not like people were going to not do the Elsweyr quests because they didn't have a Khajiit.

It's called breaking down resistances.

There is a large number of players who will not play beast races. Go back through this thread and you will find a number of folks who said 'I miss my Bosmer stealth, but I'm not race changing him/her to a Khajiit', 'I'd rather quit than convert to beasties', etc. They knew well in advance that many people would say 'Khajiit chapter? No thanks, I'll pass'. So they nerfed wood elves and buffed cats, so that people who like the stealth playstyle would have to go feline. Personally, I like cats, and I made a new Khajiit necro vampire so I could make use of the set stacking for more efficient thievery. Not to mention, it comes in handy for farming Undaunted chests!




But the racial bias is real. Personally, I don't care for Argonians. Never made one, don't ever see myself doing so..... unless they remove stealth from Khajiit and give it to Argonians at some point, instead (which wouldn't surprise me at all, considering their new penchant for making up lore on the fly.) In fact, I would never have purchased Murkmire, had it been for sale, for that reason. I had no desire to go hang out with the lizard folk. So I can certainly understand some folks' resistance to playing Khajiit. But I will most definitely take advantage of these opportunities to become virtually invisible and run around racking up AP machine gun bashing people too slow to get out of the way or come up with counter plays. ZOS knew all about these "unbalanced" things from the PTS feedback, but they pushed them to live, anyway, knowing darn well it would help sell chapter copies.

That doesn't explain how ZOS would be profiting from buffing Khajiit. Let's take your own example, if ZOS had buffed Argonians so much that you ended up race changing in to one. Would you have bought Murkmire because of that?

I don't like Argonians. If I had to make an Argonian to be an effective thief, I would. I wouldn't like it, but I'd try to look past that.

After a period of playing my Argonian, I might actually become invested in him, and think, "Hey, these Argonians aren't so bad. Maybe a little better looking than I thought at first, emotes are cool, fights as good as my Bosmer, yeah I can see why some folks like them. Ok, I like them now. Besides, he's making me millions in gold, etc.

Now, Murkmire comes out. Let's assume it's gong to cost me, like Elsweyr did. Before, I would have been like, ehh, lizards, forget that, save my money. But now I kinda like my dude, maybe I'll check out his backstory, where he came from, what's up with his people..... sure, I'll buy it.

Then take my experience, multiply that by thousands of other people (like me and Sylvermynx) who don't care for Argonians..... and ZOS has just made a ton of money by nerfing Bosmer and making Argonians BiS for Justice play (in this hypothetical example).

By the same token, when I first started playing, I wanted to be a Bosmer. I played a wood elf in all the other TES games, and other RPG games as well. So, I got good at stealing, maxed out the Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, became a fast and lethal money making machine. So, now I'm raking in all this gold, but I can still only sell 140 and launder 140 items per day. So I gotta make more thieves. So I'm looking into racials, and hmm, I can make more dough with a Khajiit, because of the +5% extra chance to successfully pickpocket. But you know what I said? I don't want to play a cat. I never have, and it seems weird. I don't want a tail, how can I pick better with claws, how can I talk without lips, makes no sense, etc. But I made one, and it wasn't so bad. And I made a few more, so that I could sell/launder 700 items per day. And I spent hundreds of days playing my cats, and now I love them as much as I love my Bosmer. Only difference is he has been forced to retire, because he is too slow and racks up way more bounty than I can afford, compared to my cats.

So, yes, breaking down resistances is a thing.

MartiniDaniels

Jaraal wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Honestly saying I don't see how khajiits were buffed in any way, they were simply made appealing to newbies since they have minor bonuses to everything, but they are not even close to be BiS for any role.

Khajiit is now BiS for thievery and sneaking through dungeons, as my screenshots indicate. You used to be able to choose between two races, both with lore backing their stealth, but they cut it to one.

I spend far more time stealing and selling motifs and furnishing plans for profit and to furnish my houses than I do PvPing, dungeoning, doing trials, or any of that. You are trying to determine the value of the race based on standards different than mine and all the other folks who are focused on Justice play. And that's why these racial changes hit us harder than most. Because they basically said, "We don't care about you thieves, or you role players, or (to a certain extent) you PvE people. All we care about is PvP balance, so your viewpoint is invalid." And that's why a lot of us are more passionate about it, versus those who only PvP and think "Wow, this is great! My Bosmer now gets extra pen and 10% speed stacked on top of my bow passive and Senche/ Morihaus/Eternal Hunt sets I was already using! Thanks ZOS, you're the greatest!"

There's no reason we can't have both. Add to or replace the wonky stealth detection with the stealth reduction that was there before (minus the 10% damage bonus we had previously) and everybody is happy.

Yes, but khajiit was already better thief then bosmer even before racial changes, due to pickpocketing bonus which is actually huge given how many targets have 90% base pickpocket chance with 4 points in pickpocket in legerdemain, and so kitties had literally double chance of success in those cases. And ESO stealth outside of stealing is very niche activity given that you can't re-enter stealth after being detected in PVE, until you are in combat.
I'm not telling that bosmer is so great, we are basically forced to agile PVP role, which is very demanding and to okay "stamdps" role, but we are probably worst race for support role, both for tanking and healing. I'm just saying khajiit is no great either (outside of pickpocketing).

Tigerseye

Jaraal wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Honestly saying I don't see how khajiits were buffed in any way, they were simply made appealing to newbies since they have minor bonuses to everything, but they are not even close to be BiS for any role.

Khajiit is now BiS for thievery and sneaking through dungeons, as my screenshots indicate. You used to be able to choose between two races, both with lore backing their stealth, but they cut it to one.

I spend far more time stealing and selling motifs and furnishing plans for profit and to furnish my houses than I do PvPing, dungeoning, doing trials, or any of that. You are trying to determine the value of the race based on standards different than mine and all the other folks who are focused on Justice play. And that's why these racial changes hit us harder than most. Because they basically said, "We don't care about you thieves, or you role players, or (to a certain extent) you PvE people. All we care about is PvP balance, so your viewpoint is invalid." And that's why a lot of us are more passionate about it, versus those who only PvP and think "Wow, this is great! My Bosmer now gets extra pen and 10% speed stacked on top of my bow passive and Senche/ Morihaus/Eternal Hunt sets I was already using! Thanks ZOS, you're the greatest!"

There's no reason we can't have both. Add to or replace the wonky stealth detection with the stealth reduction that was there before (minus the 10% damage bonus we had previously) and everybody is happy.

I think it could be worse than that.

I think they could be trying to put people off stealing, due to the fact that you can now swap gold for Crowns.

Not only can I no longer steal as easily (even though I still do OK) on Bosmer, I am also (typically) selling less in the same guild stores I could normally sell reasonably well on.


Edit: Sorry about that by the way, started to write this, then had to close my laptop.

Must have posted as I closed it, lol.

Wasn't due to me shooting myself, mid sentence, due to Bosmer stealth changes.

Koronach

Ok get the point a few of you don't like us, xuth don't got to keep rubbing it in. So still nothing, starting to doubt our passives and lore will ever be fixed.

Ratzkifal

Koronach wrote: »

Ok get the point a few of you don't like us, xuth don't got to keep rubbing it in. So still nothing, starting to doubt our passives and lore will ever be fixed.

It's nothing personal. Some people just can't identify with things that are too alien and unlike them. Others get thrilled by the alien and strange. The Bosmer are not your average nimble, tree-hugging Legolas Elves either. They are pure religious carnivorous and occassional cannibals, kidnap and torture people to mourn their dead before making the kidnapped person be the replacement of the deceased and steal things just because they can to show off how great at stealing they are.

It's strange to me how I can write up such a short and accurate description and somehow ZOS can't make racial passives that reflect their lore accurately. It's literally one line of code that needs to be replaced! Damn, it's so simple it's enticing to speculate on the reasons why it hasn't been changed already...

Sylvermynx

Koronach wrote: »

Ok get the point a few of you don't like us, xuth don't got to keep rubbing it in. So still nothing, starting to doubt our passives and lore will ever be fixed.

I have no problem with you. But I can't do argonians in game. Sorry. It's not that I don't like reptiles - I do. Snakes, lizards I'm fine with. Crocs and gators I can do without (which is, as it happens, logical in the desert where I live).

Argonians I simply can't visualize as playable. Orcs either.

Ogou

Koronach wrote: »

Ok get the point a few of you don't like us, xuth don't got to keep rubbing it in. So still nothing, starting to doubt our passives and lore will ever be fixed.

For what it's worth, I absolutely love Argonians. The Infernal City is probably the main reason.
But yeah, ZOS is probably not going to fix any of this until they need to rebalance the racial passives, which probably won't be anytime soon.

Cundu_Ertur

Whenever there is a poll about what races have the worst passives, Argonians and Bosmer top the list.

Ratzkifal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Whenever there is a poll about what races have the worst passives, Argonians and Bosmer top the list.

No surprise there. The initial charts had Bosmer at the very bottom tied with Redguards for stam DPS (even though that should be outdated by now due to the food changes penalizing low sustain races). People still cling to those outdated charts.
Adding to that is Hunter's Eye's dodgeroll buff that has been perceived as useless by a substantial part of the community (most notably the PvE part) and our awareness campaign against detection and for stealth.

Argonians received a pure nerf in Wrathstone that went overboard. ZOS reevaluated the 2% healing done set bonus and they have no role and niche they are BiS at apart from being better for beginners at the expense of potion addiction. Due to the lack of poison resistance, they aren't even a good pick to cover the weakness of Lycanthropy anymore. With nothing to call their own, they are lacking the most.

What I don't get is why Imperial seems to be 3rd place almost every time. They have solid sustain on both resources. They are great tanks thanks to being tougher than most and having more ults than most. Their stam dps isn't even that bad due to the 2k stamina.

Altmer, when compared to Orcs, are just very strange. Orcs get so many bonuses and Altmer so little. It can't even be explained with melee vs ranged, because bows are a ranged stamina weapon.
258 spell damage vs 258 weapon damage + 10% more sprint speed +12% reduced sprint cost
5% reduced damage while channeling or casting + gain 645 off-resource on class ability cast every 6s vs 1000 Health + 600 healing on weapon hit every 4s.
Doesn't sound fair to me, but I guess that's just because Orcs are overtuned.

BlueRaven

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Whenever there is a poll about what races have the worst passives, Argonians and Bosmer top the list.

I noticed that too. Bosmer and argonians passives are universally seen as needing updates.

And as lore breaking is the altmer “off spec” passive, but at least for my sorc it has benefits in trials (regenerating stam for blocks and dodges). So I see that one as a bit of guilty pleasure of sorts. It needs to be changed but at least I can find uses for it.

MartiniDaniels

It happened! Today I for the first time saw mage bosmer who roll-dodged regularly in PVE just for extra +10% speed. Maybe it was somebody from combat team?

Jaraal

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It happened! Today I for the first time saw mage bosmer who roll-dodged regularly in PVE just for extra +10% speed. Maybe it was somebody from combat team?

Are you sure it was a mage? They normally have enough stamina for just two or three rolls.

MartiniDaniels

Jaraal wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It happened! Today I for the first time saw mage bosmer who roll-dodged regularly in PVE just for extra +10% speed. Maybe it was somebody from combat team?

Are you sure it was a mage? They normally have enough stamina for just two or three rolls.

Yes, i'm sure and we still have 258 recovery which allows to sustain some rolls it was on the move though, not in combat of course. Roll-dodging just to activate extra pen is dps loss even if you use senche and way of air. So yeah, losing 2 5th set pieces is smaller hit to dps then roll-dodging every 6 seconds.
I'm yet to try with new essence thief set though, since that require roll-dodge only once in 10 seconds and compensates for the cost...

BlueRaven

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

It happened! Today I for the first time saw mage bosmer who roll-dodged regularly in PVE just for extra +10% speed. Maybe it was somebody from combat team?

Are you sure it was a mage? They normally have enough stamina for just two or three rolls.

Yes, i'm sure and we still have 258 recovery which allows to sustain some rolls it was on the move though, not in combat of course. Roll-dodging just to activate extra pen is dps loss even if you use senche and way of air. So yeah, losing 2 5th set pieces is smaller hit to dps then roll-dodging every 6 seconds.
I'm yet to try with new essence thief set though, since that require roll-dodge only once in 10 seconds and compensates for the cost...

That is interesting. I had to look it up, the roll does include spell penetration. So that is something I just learned.

I wish the passives for wood elves supported mage spells better though. It would have been nice to open up the race for all types of specs.

Arciris

Hear me and rejoice.

The Thief Guild - Dark Brotherhood event is coming back soon.
Enjoy your new stealth detection passive.

Signed: the Dev Team (not)

Donny_Vito

My Lord, 2545 replies for this class that I sometimes forget even exists!